Factory Info: Parts with Laser Cut Holes and Potential for Cracks

[deMan]

I understand the batching process and it was this that pushed my 7 wing kit out of 2021 into receiving it in 2023….from a 6 month lead time initially to an 18 month wait time. Now my Ribs need replacing…..if they are batched last again…..how many months will I need to wait to receive replacements? The 7’s and 8’s were the poor cousins when it came to batching but I believe it’s important to look to see who has waited the longest already in receiving replacement parts when setting up the batching process….thankyou.

Batching increases throughout. More parts produced in a time interval mean that on average everybody gets their parts faster.
Imagine they produced replacement parts on a “per crating day” order. If in a given week, they crated at least one of each kit then to keep the order they would have to swap in and out the stamping dies for let’s say 10 different parts on 18 different subkits giving you a total of 180 tool changes in the press that does the forming. They’d spend more time swapping tooling than making parts.
Not to mention that many parts need to be externally heat treated in between as well.
It’s like when you do match drilling - you batch it up. You do all #30, then all #40. Than you deburr, then you dimple. Imagine how long building your kit would take if you did all holes right to left, changing drill bits every time the next hole is a different size. And after every hole you put down the drill to deburr and dimple immediately.
At first glance it is naturally to want what you are asking for. It’s just impractical for Vans to do.

Overall the way Vans does it in batches gives on average the shortest delays for everyone. And that everyone could very well include you. Don’t assume that batching automatically means more wait for you just because someone else gets their parts sooner as well.

 

[bertschb]

Overall the way Vans does it in batches gives on average the shortest delays for everyone. And that everyone could very well include you. Don’t assume that batching automatically means more wait for you just because someone else gets their parts sooner as well.

Thank you for sharing this. I was going to post something similar but your explanation is much more clear than what I had planned to write.

 

[dmuro2]

I don’t think it is the wing spars, I think we are talking about flap and aileron spars. Those should be replaced as assemblies for the QB folks. I would think the same for the tanks since the Tank baffles need replaced and those are sealed with Pro-Seal. All easy so far.

The real question then is what about the rest of the parts in the wings? Those are being tested as we all debate this and I will wait and see what Van’s says.

I have hope that my QB Wings will be found acceptable with a simple replacement of bolt on parts.

Time will tell.
Tim

oh, you’re right! I saw “spar” and mistook that as the wing spar. Thank you for catching that.

 

[swift12]

Batching increases throughout. More parts produced in a time interval mean that on average everybody gets their parts faster.
Imagine they produced replacement parts on a “per crating day” order. If in a given week, they crated at least one of each kit then to keep the order they would have to swap in and out the stamping dies for let’s say 10 different parts on 18 different subkits giving you a total of 180 tool changes in the press that does the forming. They’d spend more time swapping tooling than making parts.
Not to mention that many parts need to be externally heat treated in between as well.
It’s like when you do match drilling - you batch it up. You do all #30, then all #40. Than you deburr, then you dimple. Imagine how long building your kit would take if you did all holes right to left, changing drill bits every time the next hole is a different size. And after every hole you put down the drill to deburr and dimple immediately.
At first glance it is naturally to want what you are asking for. It’s just impractical for Vans to do.

Overall the way Vans does it in batches gives on average the shortest delays for everyone. And that everyone could very well include you. Don’t assume that batching automatically means more wait for you just because someone else gets their parts sooner as well.

I understand all that…and I agree with batching…the point being made was batching placed many orders made very much later than planned…..if you happened to be the unlucky ones to have your orders placed at the end of the batching queue. I don’t want to end up at the back of that queue again. That is a fair enough statement to make.

 

[Hangar 26]

Adding to the list of laser cut parts

I was looking for something to do and for a while my ailerons looked promising. However I am pretty sure that my A-710 stiffners are also laser cut. They are not yet on Vans list of laser cut parts.

 

[GrahamF]

I understand all that…and I agree with batching…the point being made was batching placed many orders made very much later than planned…..if you happened to be the unlucky ones to have your orders placed at the end of the batching queue. I don’t want to end up at the back of that queue again. That is a fair enough statement to make.

That's very fair. Those of us building 7s and 8s felt rather like the poor relations as our crating dates were repeatedly pushed back, and it was rather hard to avoid the feeling that the bigger spenders were being prioritised.

Here's something that I don't think has been asked. In the parts list, does REPLACE mean replace any laser-cut part in that location, or replace one that had bad holes and/or cracks?

I have a number of laser-cut parts now entombed in critical locations, but there were never any cracks while dimpling or riveting. Remember not all laser cut parts are bad - it just seems to be one particular run from one particular contractor.

 

[GrahamF]

I was looking for something to do and for a while my ailerons looked promising. However I am pretty sure that my A-710 stiffners are also laser cut. They are not yet on Vans list of laser cut parts.

Same for me. I emailed support yesterday about A-710 missing from the list and received an email back (from Greg actually) thanking me for pointing it out and saying that the list would be updated again that day.

 

[swift12]

That's very fair. Those of us building 7s and 8s felt rather like the poor relations as our crating dates were repeatedly pushed back, and it was rather hard to avoid the feeling that the bigger spenders were being prioritised.

Here's something that I don't think has been asked. In the parts list, does REPLACE mean replace any laser-cut part in that location, or replace one that had bad holes and/or cracks?

I have a number of laser-cut parts now entombed in critical locations, but there were never any cracks while dimpling or riveting. Remember not all laser cut parts are bad - it just seems to be one particular run from one particular contractor.

Thanks GrahamF. I feel like the response I got was a good old schooling on batching procedures and how it could make efficiency better rather than the point of my post which you obviously understood being in the same boat as me. 6 months to 18 months was not a small wait…..I wonder where we will be placed this time.

 

[Jonnyb]

My pile of laser cut parts.
Think I have got away quite lightly!
Have to say I can’t see any holes that look like some of the stuff posted on this thread. Mine pretty much all look like the picture, and that’s before drilling to final size. My concern now is cracking while building and service life.

 

[GrahamF]

My pile of laser cut parts.
Think I have got away quite lightly!
Have to say I can’t see any holes that look like some of the stuff posted on this thread. Mine pretty much all look like the picture, and that’s before drilling to final size. My concern now is cracking while building and service life.

Based on my experience to date, what you have there are 'good' laser-cut parts. Especially given each hole will be drilled or reamed out two sizes, they should be absolutely fine and cracking is extremely unlikely.

 

[Jonnyb]

Think you’re right Graham.
I’m hanging fire with my build just until Vans confirm the parts are ok.
The other issue is one that’s been discussed here before, and that’s resale. I don’t want to incorporate what are probably fine parts if that’s going to affect the resale value of the aircraft. Especially if Vans say they will replace them anyway.
It’s a bit of a nightmare to be honest!

 

[georgemohr]

Based on my experience to date, what you have there are 'good' laser-cut parts. Especially given each hole will be drilled or reamed out two sizes, they should be absolutely fine and cracking is extremely unlikely.

I agree with this assessment. What we need Vans testing to resolve for us, is the question, "are good laser cut parts that exhibit no cracking during dimpling or riveting, acceptable for long term use".

Those that have a pile of parts have the luxury of opting to rejecting all these parts if they wish. Those that have large assemblies already complete, or QB kits, need this clarity.

 

[GrahamF]

Those that have a pile of parts have the luxury of opting to rejecting all these parts if they wish. Those that have large assemblies already complete, or QB kits, need this clarity.

That's the best and most succinct summary of the predicament that I've read so far.

 

[gotyoke]

I agree with this assessment. What we need Vans testing to resolve for us, is the question, "are good laser cut parts that exhibit no cracking during dimpling or riveting, acceptable for long term use".

I have had cracks show up in cleaned-up dimpled #40 final-sized holes that would be considered "good" relative to some pictures that were shared. Such cracks are not visible to the nake eye, but do show up under high magnification. Also, how do you assess a crack after it's been riveted when the lip of the hole is covered by a shop head? There is no guidance for that.

I eagerly and patiently await Van's testing results, and hope to be pleasantly surprised. I admit there is a pessimistic side of me that predicts the answer is not going to inspire confidence, e.g. "For parts that fall under category X, if the holes have minor cracks, the structure is highly unlikely to lose integrity under normal loads for the lifetime of the airplane." Reading these forums, I think there may be more than a few folks who would not be happy with that kind of answer, let alone a prospective future buyer.

Very interesting time to be a builder

 

[bertschb]

Very interesting time to be a builder

Very depressing time to be a new builder :-(

 

[KatanaPilot]

Very depressing time to be a new builder :-(

I'm sure it is. Somewhat depressing having a completed airplane thinking about what many of you are going through.

That being said, I think I would rather be in your position holding a defective spar in your hand wondering "how long will it take Van's to replace it?" versus looking at a completed stabilizer/wing/fuel tank/flight control wondering "how am I going to remove the defective spar/baffle/etc. without damaging the rest of the parts?".

 

[Marc Bourget]

Don't ignore the stresses added by flight loads to an otherwise "irregular hole" that originally tolerated forces imposed by the setting of a rivet

Those "grooves" (even if "filed out") are stress risers and although they may have tolerated the initial stresses associated with riveting, they introduce a stress riser to the assembled parts.

 

[dwollen89]

Not to beat a dead horse, but the most concerning thing to me is just not knowing if I even have the laser cut parts. My tail kit was crated in early May of last year. It's since been primed and assembled. If the parts were being produced starting in February of last year, I have no way of knowing if I have any of said parts. I don't recall seeing anything concerning during assembly and I'm pretty meticulous.

Additionally, I concur with what others have said. If it's required to replace spars or other significant pieces, I don't think that can be done on completed structures by the average builder. At least not by this builder. I'd hope they'd offer a complete new kit.

I'm anxiously waiting like everyone. I have faith in Vans and I hope they figure this out and make it right if these tests do not come back favorable. With that being said, there's a certain South African made kit plane that I'm going to explore at Osh next week.

 

[mstrauss]

Based on my experience to date, what you have there are 'good' laser-cut parts. Especially given each hole will be drilled or reamed out two sizes, they should be absolutely fine and cracking is extremely unlikely.

Graham,

If you don't mind me asking, exactly what experience do you have in this matter? I am not trying to be snarky when I ask, but rendering such an opinion, when Vans is currently unable to say what is good and what is bad, appears uninformed.

It is clear from what Vans has stated, that visual inspection of a laser cut hole is currently insufficient to establish a determination of its airworthiness.

Sorry if I sound a bit short. I just think such statements as yours diminishes the seriousness of this.

Mike

 

[Pdp7427]

Here’s a practical question as I begin inspecting my constructed assemblies.

If a part exhibits the red ink transfer onto the metal surface, is it a good assumption being made that it has been blue-plastic coated and therefor punched? Example attached is my F1006D bulkhead. You can see red ink transfer on the lower flange and that is what I’m referring to, not the red sharpie part number.

Patrick

View attachment 45470

 

[GrahamF]

Graham,

If you don't mind me asking, exactly what experience do you have in this matter? I am not trying to be snarky when I ask, but rendering such an opinion, when Vans is currently unable to say what is good and what is bad, appears uninformed.

It is clear from what Vans has stated, that visual inspection of a laser cut hole is currently insufficient to establish a determination of its airworthiness.

Sorry if I sound a bit short. I just think such statements as yours diminishes the seriousness of this.

Mike

Mike,

I referred to my experience to date working with Van's parts, and what they have told us now and previously about laser cutting. I was not aware that posting an opinion required one to state one's credentials, e.g. lead design engineer on the F-35, ATPL with 25,000 hrs and 20 space shuttle landings, but am aware aviation can be a bit like that. It has generally been my experience that those who wish to preface their opinion with a brag about their experience are usually the least worth listening to, and the most valuable contributors to intelligent debate are those who simply make their point logically and let it stand on its own merits.

It seems Van's conducted extensive fatigue testing of laser cut parts prior to going into production. They were satisfied with the results of these tests and I trust them on that. It is reasonable to assume a fair amount of visual inspection happened before the fatigue testing, and that Van's were happy with the state of the holes - i.e. after normal final reaming and deburring processes the holes did not crack when dimpled or riveted. The parts subsequently passed the fatigue tests - let's call these 'good' laser-cut parts. As Greg has told us, not all laser-cut parts are bad - the problem is parts from one particular contractor between certain specific dates - an issue with one or more batches.

If you have been lucky / unlucky enough to receive both, the 'bad' laser-cut parts are very apparent, with holes significantly out-of-round and with significant notches that cannot be cleaned up within the maximum allowed hole diameter. The problem is evidently worse with final-size kits where the builder is very limited in the amount of material they can remove before reaching maximum allowed hole diameter.

For those of us who have held both in our hands, the difference between good and bad parts is like night and day. You cannot fail to notice it. My emp kit contained good laser-cut parts and I experienced no cracking on dimpling or riveting. I think it's reasonable to assume therefore that these parts are akin to those originally tested by Van's and thus I have confidence in them. There is the heat-affected zone issue of course, but I think it is reasonable to presume this issue passed the original fatigue testing. My wing kit contains bad parts, therefore it remains on the shelf pending resolution / replacement.

Van's is now testing bad laser-cut parts (stuff with cracks, oversize and out-of-round holes) and will report back to us. The results of these tests would seem principally of interest to those who did not notice the bad parts (that cannot be many builders), those who built on as instructed by support and painted themselves into a corner, and those with QB assemblies who have no idea what's in there.

That's the basis of my position. I simply observed that the fellow who posted a picture had something which looked like a good laser-cut part, based on the comparisons I've done between good and bad. I am not aware of Van's having stated that visual inspection of a part prior to assembly is insufficient to establish airworthiness, but I am aware of them having stated that not all laser-cut parts are bad. After all, we all (as builders) establish airworthiness or not based on visual inspection alone all the time, outside of this particular issue.

If you read my prior posts, it will be apparent that I am in no way diminishing the seriousness of the issue. Because there does not appear to be traceability down the level of who exactly received what, it may be that Van's needs to instruct replacement of all laser-cut parts in certain locations in the structure, even though some of these parts (the good ones) will be fine.

 

[auburnaviator]

Here’s a practical question as I begin inspecting my constructed assemblies.

If a part exhibits the red ink transfer onto the metal surface, is it a good assumption being made that it has been blue-plastic coated and therefor punched? Example attached is my F1006D bulkhead. You can see red ink transfer on the lower flange and that is what I’m referring to, not the red sharpie part number.

Patrick

View attachment 45470

I have no idea about laser cut parts and how they are marked (my kits are all older punched kits) but yes, the red dye will bleed through the blue vinyl of a punched part onto the aluminum. Looks just like your picture. A little isopropyl alcohol on a paper towel and it comes right off though.

 

[deMan]

I have no idea about laser cut parts and how they are marked (my kits are all older punched kits) but yes, the red dye will bleed through the blue vinyl of a punched part onto the aluminum. Looks just like your picture. A little isopropyl alcohol on a paper towel and it comes right off though.

The blue vinyl is put on by vans at the factory. The sheets come bare from the mill.
I am pretty sure the red ink is from the mill marking each sheet. The red ink is transferred from the sheet to the vinyl, not the other way around.
This means that red ink marks are in no way an indication whether a part is laser cut or not.

 

[rsr3]

Here’s a practical question as I begin inspecting my constructed assemblies.

If a part exhibits the red ink transfer onto the metal surface, is it a good assumption being made that it has been blue-plastic coated and therefor punched? Example attached is my F1006D bulkhead. You can see red ink transfer on the lower flange and that is what I’m referring to, not the red sharpie part number.

Patrick

View attachment 45470

A closer look at a previous poster’s pile of laser cut parts reveals red dye on those parts too. Maybe it is not such a reliable indicator.

 

[Pdp7427]

Thanks great info. I’m thinking it may not be possible to determine if parts are
Punched or laser cut if all of my photos were taken after the vinyl was removed. Burn marks are indicators but I’m not sure absence of burn marks confirms anything either.

I’m wondering now if I might be rebuilding my elevators, trim tabs, fuel tanks, and rudder. Maybe vans will let builders buy the rest of the kits at cost… my rudder is ok but most of the rivets I’m the rudder go to stiffeners/shear clips which are all laser cut. Rebuilding the whole rudder might be less time consuming ans result in a much better part than if I drill my current one apart.

as of now, the only MUST-REPLACE parts that I can't positively ID with vinyl are the trim tab spars, so thats some good news. Just time to sit back and wait on further guidance.

 

[Everwild]

Third-party testing / consulting ???

As a builder with an affected wing kit, I would consider paying an expert to evaluate which laser cut parts in my build are of acceptable quality and which ones should be replaced.

I know Vans is trying to determine this, but my experience is some laser cut parts show no signs of cracking, and others perform horribly. Is it a batch issue? Vendor issue? Who received each batch from each vendor? etc? Who can look at my actual built assemblies and make a determination?

Anyone out there in a position to help builders do a professional evaluation and possibly even provide reports that essentially certify a part is safe, save builders some time, and preserve the value of those assemblies?

It would be worth some cabbage to me to not rebuild my tanks or wings and save a few hundred hours.

 

[CizzoPilot]

Has anyone done part of their build with potentially affected parts at a builder's assist program?
I just completed my emp/tailcone at Synergy about 2 weeks ago and am really hoping that the two weeks I took off work, cost of the course/hotel/u-Haul, and ability to utilize their workspace/tools/jigs/etc wasnt in vain...
If anyone is in the same boat, I'd be interested in your take or be company to your misery. Starting over would immediately put me at a significant loss.

 

[PH102]

Looking close at a punched part, you should see a rounded edge (slight) from the punched side that the laser cut won't have.

If someone has a sample of both punched and laser cut, could you take some close-up photos of each and post them so people can have an idea what to look for.

View attachment 45485
View attachment 45486

 

[dmattmul]

Testing parts

Having gone down this road more than once trying to determine if a part that is not made to a certain specification is fit to use is very challenging. First you need to gather a part. Sounds easy. Find the worse part, average, best? Most say test the worse part. How do you know what/where the worst part is? Without part no./batch and date numbers on each parts makes the job even more difficult. (Assuming Vans does not mark their parts and know who received what parts) It's going to be a difficult task and I truly feel their pain. There have been posts around taking existing holes, match drilling and it should be ok as long as it's 2 sizes larger. That sounds promising but for some reason Vans has listed "undersized holes" and they will replace. There is no mention that testing is in the works. They are even heat treated which I think reduces the chance of cracking. Maybe Vans "someone" can clarify.

Since every QB major assembly has a date code on it if Vans could simply state the date the QB assembly company started using laser parts would provide a little bit of guidance and possibly reduce the anxiety in at least some of the QB buyers out there.

We all want Vans to succeed, and I look forward to flying the RV-15 in the future. I'm constantly amazed at the 14's flying characteristics and the enjoyment is has brought me. I don't think I would be in GA today without Vans Aircraft. Hopefully we can get an update soon.

 

[gotyoke]

If a part exhibits the red ink transfer onto the metal surface, is it a good assumption being made that it has been blue-plastic coated and therefor punched?

No.

View attachment 45494

 

[Nashpdman]

"Since every QB major assembly has a date code on it if Vans could simply state the date the QB assembly company started using laser parts would provide a little bit of guidance and possibly reduce the anxiety in at least some of the QB buyers out there."

Agree! I'm sure Van's is tracking on this. It would seem to me, based on Jan 2022 update, there will be many QB kits that are not affected. I base this on the dates stated in the update video. 100-110 kits in a container plus, the ship to dates were prior to the start of laser cutting.

I cannot identify any laser cut parts in the QB kits I've received.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMTkDq2g-p0

 

[Tlrguy]

ID laser cut parts

Identifying these laser cut parts in completed assemblies is a real challenge, but doable. I’ve spent countless hours now with a 40x loupe trying to decipher the identifiable characteristics of these two very different ways of making a hole.

Under 40 times magnification, the laser cut hole obviously looks out of round and notched with slag (we already know that). One thing I discovered though is the laser cutting process leaves a telltale signature on the cut line very different from a punched hole.

The laser cut hole exhibits vertical “scarring” through the thickness of the hole and all the way around the cut line. Almost what you would expect to see from something blasting through material from one side to the other. This telltale signature remains even after the dimple and rivet process. My parts are all AKZO primed after dimpling and as it turns out, as you mechanically remove the primer, some of it stays in the low spots and almost acts as a dye to aid in seeing these laser cutting scars.

Mechanically punched parts have a very different signature. Under 40 times magnification, it’s very clear as to what side the punch enters, and as it does, the punch cuts super clean all the way around the cut line. As the punch continues to move through the material, the clean cut becomes more of a tear if you will. It doesn’t look bad, just very different. This telltale sign is very easy to see on a raw part. The signature remains after the dimple and rivet process. If the part is primed, mechanical removal of primer once again remains in the low spots and tends to aid in identifying the hole.

I hope this makes sense. It took me a while to figure out how inspecting all this this was going to be possible, but the 40x loupe turned out to be the ticket. With that said, I discovered my build to be riddled with cracked rivet holes. Almost every laser cut part that is dimpled has at least a bunch of cracks . Looks good to the naked eye with a rivet installed though.

 

[maxmirot]

"Since every QB major assembly has a date code on it if Vans could simply state the date the QB assembly company started using laser parts would provide a little bit of guidance and possibly reduce the anxiety in at least some of the QB buyers out there."

Agree! I'm sure Van's is tracking on this. It would seem to me, based on Jan 2022 update, there will be many QB kits that are not affected. I base this on the dates stated in the update video. 100-110 kits in a container plus, the ship to dates were prior to the start of laser cutting.

I cannot identify any laser cut parts in the QB kits I've received.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMTkDq2g-p0

At 12.35 they say the spars were not going to be laser cut. Clearly that did not happen

 

[flywithayres]

My pile of laser cut parts.
Think I have got away quite lightly!
Have to say I can’t see any holes that look like some of the stuff posted on this thread. Mine pretty much all look like the picture, and that’s before drilling to final size. My concern now is cracking while building and service life.

I completed my inventory today. Thankfully, my tail (acquired after completion) and wing (QB) sections were “PL” - pre laser. My fuse, however has 44 parts that are either red, yellow or blue. Now the wait begins…. I shouldn’t complain as I’m sure there are builders in much worse shape. However, I’ve taken a page from a previous post and documented (photos) all the blue vinyl parts that were on the list as a way to show provenance should I ever decide to sell the completed airplane. I actually found a piece with clear vinyl wrapping. I’m sure it goes without saying but that would be considered a CNC punched part, I imagine.

 

[maxmirot]

Identifying these laser cut parts in completed assemblies is a real challenge, but doable. I’ve spent countless hours now with a 40x loupe trying to decipher the identifiable characteristics of these two very different ways of making a hole.

Under 40 times magnification, the laser cut hole obviously looks out of round and notched with slag (we already know that). One thing I discovered though is the laser cutting process leaves a telltale signature on the cut line very different from a stamped hole.

The laser cut hole exhibits vertical “scarring” through the thickness of the hole and all the way around the cut line. Almost what you would expect to see from something blasting through material from one side to the other. This telltale signature remains even after the dimple and rivet process. My parts are all AKZO primed after dimpling and as it turns out, as you mechanically remove the primer, some of it stays in the low spots and almost acts as a dye to aid in seeing these laser cutting scars.

Mechanically punched parts have a very different signature. Under 40 times magnification, it’s very clear as to what side the punch enters, and as it does, the punch cuts super clean all the way around the cut line. As the punch continues to move through the material, the clean cut becomes more of a tear if you will. It doesn’t look bad, just very different. This telltale sign is very easy to see on a raw part. The signature remains after the dimple and rivet process. If the part is primed, mechanical removal of primer once again remains in the low spots and tends to aid in identifying the hole.

I hope this makes sense. It took me a while to figure out how inspecting all this this was going to be possible, but the 40x loupe turned out to be the ticket. With that said, I discovered my build to be riddled with cracked rivet holes. Almost every laser cut part that is dimpled has at least a bunch of cracks . Looks good to the naked eye with a rivet installed though.

Do you have a bore scope or some way providing magnified images? That would be very interesting to see.

 

[gotyoke]

Almost every laser cut part that is dimpled has at least a bunch of cracks . Looks good to the naked eye with a rivet installed though.

This. A crack that is visible only under magnification is still a crack.

 

[auburnaviator]

The blue vinyl is put on by vans at the factory. The sheets come bare from the mill.
I am pretty sure the red ink is from the mill marking each sheet. The red ink is transferred from the sheet to the vinyl, not the other way around.
This means that red ink marks are in no way an indication whether a part is laser cut or not.

Didn’t think of it in that way. Good point.

 

[Tlrguy]

Do you have a bore scope or some way providing magnified images? That would be very interesting to see.

Laser cut hole, dimpled, no rivet set. This part has been dipped in alodine. These vertical “scars” around the face of the cut are the telltale sign the hole is laser cut. These scars still exist after riveting the part together and carefully drilling out as to not touch the perimeter of the hole.

Every single laser cut hole appears to exhibit these markings.

 

[Tlrguy]

Punched hole, dimpled and no rivet set. . This part has been dipped in alodine. The “more gold” areas inside the hole are the “tear” side of the hole. This part is punched from the top down. Remember, the punch starts with a super clean cut and transitions to a “tear”.

This signature will still be recognizable after rivet assembly and careful drill out.

Every single punched hole appears to exhibit these markings.

 

[rph142]

The “first date in inventory” column for the RV-7 fuselage lists 7/7/2023 for most parts. Does this mean only kits shipped after 7/7/2023 contain laser cut parts?

 

[Tlrguy]

The “first date in inventory” column for the RV-7 fuselage lists 7/7/2023 for most parts. Does this mean only kits shipped after 7/7/2023 contain laser cut parts?

Theoretically

 

[maxmirot]

Laser cut hole, dimpled, no rivet set. This part has been dipped in alodine. These vertical “scars” around the face of the cut are the telltale sign the hole is laser cut. These scars still exist after riveting the part together and carefully drilling out as to not touch the perimeter of the hole.

Every single laser cut hole appears to exhibit these markings.

I was hoping you can tell if it is riveted. I think that might be helpful to those with assembled parts that can be inspected.

 

[Paul Thomas]

I can't help but wonder how widespread the issue really is. Are we making a much bigger deal out of it than it really is? How did so many builders and the trained professionals for quickbuild kits/build centers miss this for so long?

To me, there is a big difference between a laser cut part and a "bad" laser cut part. Some parts clearly don't meet the specs; how widespread is that issue?

I'm disturbed by the amount of talk of payment for reduced value or need for new substructures when we don't even know the real impact. Is there any evidence of a quickbuilt kit that is in fact affected to the point it will not meet specs? We slow builders do share some responsibility. We accepted those parts when we took delivery and inventoried the kits. For the parts we have assembled, we deemed them airworthy.

I have been away from home so I haven't had a chance to look at my parts. However, I suspect most of the laser cut parts are nowhere near as bad as we are making the issue out to be and that Van's will correctly take an over cautious course of action to resolve the problem.

I do understand the frustration and that there is an issue. However, the discussion should be based on the evidence rather fearmongering or posturing in an attempt to gain an advantage against the very company you'll order more parts from.

 

[Jonnyb]

I can't help but wonder how widespread the issue really is. Are we making a much bigger deal out of it than it really is? How did so many builders and the trained professionals for quickbuild kits/build centers miss this for so long?

To me, there is a big difference between a laser cut part and a "bad" laser cut part. Some parts clearly don't meet the specs; how widespread is that issue?

I'm disturbed by the amount of talk of payment for reduced value or need for new substructures when we don't even know the real impact. Is there any evidence of a quickbuilt kit that is in fact affected to the point it will not meet specs? We slow builders do share some responsibility. We accepted those parts when we took delivery and inventoried the kits. For the parts we have assembled, we deemed them airworthy.

I have been away from home so I haven't had a chance to look at my parts. However, I suspect most of the laser cut parts are nowhere near as bad as we are making the issue out to be and that Van's will correctly take an over cautious course of action to resolve the problem.

I do understand the frustration and that there is an issue. However, the discussion should be based on the evidence rather fearmongering or posturing in an attempt to gain an advantage against the very company you'll order more parts from.

That’s a really good question, and I suppose only Vans really knows. I’m yet to see any reports of cracking from builders who final size the holes, but I could have just missed them.
I don’t know if the “normal” laser cut holes are cracking, or only the ones with the notches cut into them. If it’s the latter, it could just be a bad batch of parts. If it’s all of them then could it be restricted to the more modern 10/12/14 kits with final size holes.
Guess we will find out in due course.

 

[GrahamF]

I hope this makes sense. It took me a while to figure out how inspecting all this this was going to be possible, but the 40x loupe turned out to be the ticket. With that said, I discovered my build to be riddled with cracked rivet holes. Almost every laser cut part that is dimpled has at least a bunch of cracks . Looks good to the naked eye with a rivet installed though.

Is your build a final-size kit, or drilled/reamed out from #42 to #40?

 

[howardtlcc]

Has anyone done part of their build with potentially affected parts at a builder's assist program?
I just completed my emp/tailcone at Synergy about 2 weeks ago and am really hoping that the two weeks I took off work, cost of the course/hotel/u-Haul, and ability to utilize their workspace/tools/jigs/etc wasnt in vain...
If anyone is in the same boat, I'd be interested in your take or be company to your misery. Starting over would immediately put me at a significant loss.

The good news is that your parts were looked over by someone who had built many RV's. I assume you were at Synergy South? Allen carefully inspects the work. We also did our build there in November.

 

[dstates]

I can't help but wonder how widespread the issue really is. Are we making a much bigger deal out of it than it really is? How did so many builders and the trained professionals for quickbuild kits/build centers miss this for so long?

To me, there is a big difference between a laser cut part and a "bad" laser cut part. Some parts clearly don't meet the specs; how widespread is that issue?

I'm disturbed by the amount of talk of payment for reduced value or need for new substructures when we don't even know the real impact. Is there any evidence of a quickbuilt kit that is in fact affected to the point it will not meet specs? We slow builders do share some responsibility. We accepted those parts when we took delivery and inventoried the kits. For the parts we have assembled, we deemed them airworthy.

I have been away from home so I haven't had a chance to look at my parts. However, I suspect most of the laser cut parts are nowhere near as bad as we are making the issue out to be and that Van's will correctly take an over cautious course of action to resolve the problem.

I do understand the frustration and that there is an issue. However, the discussion should be based on the evidence rather fearmongering or posturing in an attempt to gain an advantage against the very company you'll order more parts from.

I think one of the biggest problems is that they list all of the empennage surfaces possibly having laser cut spars that should be replaced. Tail surfaces are built by the new builder who may or may not know exactly what to look for and probably didn't look with a 40x loupe like the previous poster. The fact that we had one person review their parts with a 40x loupe and found cracks that he couldn't see with a naked eye is a huge concern. I'm not trying to blow this out of proportion, but until we fully know the size of the problem, the potential is there for it to be bad (especially after the SB for cracks in HS spars and those were not laser cut).

 

[chromedome]

After talking with my insurance broker, he is unsure if my airplane will be insurable once completed unless all of the laser-cut parts are replaced.

 

[Tlrguy]

I think one of the biggest problems is that they list all of the empennage surfaces possibly having laser cut spars that should be replaced. Tail surfaces are built by the new builder who may or may not know exactly what to look for and probably didn't look with a 40x loupe like the previous poster. The fact that we had one person review their parts with a 40x loupe and found cracks that he couldn't see with a naked eye is a huge concern. I'm not trying to blow this out of proportion, but until we fully know the size of the problem, the potential is there for it to be bad (especially after the SB for cracks in HS spars and those were not laser cut).

Checking everything over with a 40x loupe during the build is definitely not something I would consider normal. Unfortunately I’ve completed a -10 Emp and Wing kit full of affected parts. Using the 40x loupe I was able to identify all my spars as either punched or laser cut and upon further inspection of single dimpled holes I now see that these laser cut parts are very prone to cracking. All of this is invisible to the naked eye, especially with a rivet installed.

 

[maxmirot]

Checking everything over with a 40x loupe during the build is definitely not something I would consider normal. Unfortunately I’ve completed a -10 Emp and Wing kit full of affected parts. Using the 40x loupe I was able to identify all my spars as either punched or laser cut and upon further inspection of single dimpled holes I now see that these laser cut parts are very prone to cracking. All of this is invisible to the naked eye, especially with a rivet installed.

We have to wait for engineering to determine if these truly fail or are just microscopic changes.

Vans did not have these laser parts tracked to the individual kit level.
It might be help if we can tell which are laser cut on riveted assembly.