Factory Info: Parts with Laser Cut Holes and Potential for Cracks

[Brantel]

I thought everyone on here was suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. But it looks like the Administrator just censors any negative comment toward Van’s.

I have been around since the beginning of this forum when it moved from Yahoo Groups. Your statement simply is not true.

The moderators of this group will moderate when the rules of the forum are broken. Rarely do they delete post vs editing them, even more rare is to delete a thread vs removing a rule breaking post or just locking the thread because it has ran its course.

I don’t think I have ever seen a case where an accurate and constructive post about any vendor has been deleted as long as it does not break the rules.

[ed. Thanks Brantel. There is a grey area, and it's usually a judgement call on my part or one of the other mods. I will tell you if the tone turns to 'we should sue', those will be deleted per the rules - don't do lawsuits here. And that is is on the rules page just so you know. I understand a lot of builders are frustrated, and I suspect the factory is too (why they have been working around the clock). Nobody is going to be 100% happy, so let's see how it fleshes out. I suspect the mothership will bend over backwards. Yeah, it sucks, I know. Welcome to aviation.

I'll end with another reminder that posts complaining how this site is run will be deleted - ESPECIALLY if you're a new account with only a handful of posts. Please read the rules page....they are there for a reason and have been fine tuned over the last 15 years to give the best chance of keeping the conversations constructive. v/r,dr]

 

[GrahamF]

Part labels have barcodes on. Does the barcode identify the specific example of the part for traceability purposes, including whether it was punched or laser cut, or does the barcode simply say "this is an E-702"?

 

[Jonnyb]

Sounds like enough people have reported cracks caused by dimpling that there will always be some doubt. Unless you inspected every dimple with magnification.

There's enough reports for it to be a problem that Vans is addressing. Im still not sure if it's the final size kits that are having this issue or wether its the match hole kits too. I know Vans are erring on the side of caution by recommending the spar replacements in all the kits, but have they had reports of cracking on the 7/8/9 empennage spars?

The problem of amateur built aircraft is summed up in your last sentence. And it's incumbent on the builder to do a good job, but how many RVs are flying around with cracks in parts we have no idea about? How many aircraft in general? When was the last time a B737/A320 had every rivet inspected for damage?

I think we need to let Vans do their stuff and then come back with solutions. Im actually really impressed with how they have handled this so far. Boeing could learn a thing or two!

 

[RV8Bob]

[ed.....deleted a mod bashing sentence. Please read the posting rules. v/r,dr]

Saying this is disappointing is an understatement. It’s definitely the one time that it doesn’t pay off to be a fast builder.

This is just the latest of a series of disappointments from Van’s. I chose to do the slow build because of the extreme delays in the quick build kits, partly because the improper primer being used. Then constant price increases. Then when it got close to the 6 month lead time on the wing kit I received an email it would be delayed indefinitely. Van’s promised an update every 2 weeks that never happened. Finally received the kit a year later. Then a new service bulletin for cracks in the horizontal stabilizer. Now cracks could form throughout the entire airframe.

I have completed the wings and now am halfway through the fuselage. There will always be a question to the integrity of these parts. At the very least this could severely affect resale for aircraft with these kits no matter what the “solution” is.

 

[gasman]

Part labels have barcodes on. Does the barcode identify the specific example of the part for traceability purposes, including whether it was punched or laser cut, or does the barcode simply say "this is an E-702"?

Looking close at a punched part, you should see a rounded edge (slight) from the punched side that the laser cut won't have.

If someone has a sample of both punched and laser cut, could you take some close-up photos of each and post them so people can have an idea what to look for.

 

[RV8Bob]

…
The problem of amateur built aircraft is summed up in your last sentence. And it's incumbent on the builder to do a good job, but how many RVs are flying around with cracks in parts we have no idea about? How many aircraft in general? When was the last time a B737/A320 had every rivet inspected for damage? …

Most issues occur from an accumulation of errors. The mental strain caused that the possibility exists that micro notches could exist at every hole can not be ignored and is not the fault of the builder.

 

[GrahamF]

I don't think parts still on the shelf is really a problem. Laser cut parts are obvious - no blue vinyl, sticker therefore on the part itself unlike punched parts, messy holes with notches, spatter and slag, scorch marks, etc.

The problem is with parts that may or may not have been laser cut but before the issue really came to light were drilled, prepared, primed and are now riveted deep inside some structure or other. Even with a borescope you wouldn't be able to tell if it was laser cut, hence the need for traceability down to which individual parts went to which customers.

 

[nzrv8]

Then a new service bulletin for cracks in the horizontal stabilizer. Now cracks could form throughout the entire airframe.

Service bulletins are a positive thing, not a negative.

 

[rkraski]

I found Van’s about a year ago and I’ve been on the fence about diving into the experimental aircraft world ever since. I have a demo flight in the RV-14A scheduled in August. It looks like an awesome airplane but I’ll be putting off ordering a kit for at least another year until these quality problems are in the rear view mirror.
I’ve worked for 20 years as a manufacturing engineer so I’m not about to cast stones from a glass house. Even the best companies in the world make mistakes.
Does anyone know to what extent Van’s has outsourced their manufacturing? Have they always used third parties for making parts or is this a recent change? Is Van’s willing/able to add punch press capacity to bring all production in-house?

 

[mstrauss]

Open letter to Vans

Dear Vans,

I understand there is a lot in play. This is a most unfortunate situation for all involved. It appears you are providing as much information as you can, as real-time as you can. I get it, I understand these are difficult circumstance. There is clearly not the traceability we would all like, to understand exactly who got what, and when. I appreciate your decision to just replace the critical parts, and your willingness to replace any laser cut part with a dimpled hole if requested by the builder. Thank you

We have invested money and time in our dream to build an airplane, and you are a very key part in that dream. It's fair to say that without Vans, that dream would probably never come to fruition. So, I look at this as a team effort. We are building dreams together.

That is why I ask you to please give careful thought to next steps, and what you propose for resolving this issue with your teammates. It's very clear there are many that have shown concern over these parts, were told to build on, and have. They are now in a situation where they may not know where a laser cut part was used, and must consider an impacted structure suspect.

This concern is primary to the resolution plan. It's simple for the kits that have not been started, but what is the plan for kits that are started or completed? I have learned a huge amount while building my empennage, but I feel in no way capable of disassembling completed structures to get to the potentially laser cut parts. I propose this goes from the role of assembler to restorer. I know I will not be able/wiling to go that path. It's hard enough thinking about having to rebuild a structure, let alone disassemble it first.

So, this is the difficult situation for the team. I am not going to pretend that Vans has infinite time and money to put into resolving this, and no one want to see the company jeopardized, but something needs to be done for those in this situation. What can we do as a team?

Yours,
Michael Strauss
R14A Emp almost complete, wings and fuz kits not started.

 

[tenacious9]

I realize that the current state of kits produces an "erector set" approach to building. However, ALL builders should still be builders. Remember that we are manufacturing an airplane and the responsibility is ours. If the skill necessary to remove a spar is not within the current capability set, builders should find a way to add it. I am sure Vans will make a video or detailed instructions to help builders develop this skill in response to this issue. I was very impressed with the video that they made on sealing fuel tanks. I believe this was in response to the large number of builders that struggle in that area.

Vans is manufacturing kits. When their supplier makes an error, they address it by replacing kit parts to "make it right." YOU, OTOH, are the aircraft manufacturer and when your supplier (i.e. Vans) makes an error, YOU fix it with the replacement parts that they provide to address the error. Don't mean to be harsh, but this is how it works. No different than all of the SB issues identified. Vans makes new and improved parts and WE are expected to retrofit the fixes. They are not going to replace your airplane just because the HS spar they provided developed cracks around the hinge plate rivet holes. They rightfully assume that if you built an airplane, you will be able to pull back a skin and add a doubler.

I would think differently about QB kits and would expect the supplier to fully replace the complete part that had flaws on the component's sub-parts, as it was their job to provide a complete part, not just the components. Though I would be surprised if they didn't offer some $ to have you make the repair, just like they did when they found the corrosion on the QB parts. The problem with that is lead time. Probably a whole lot faster to learn to replace the parts yourself.

Larry

Let me take a WAG…..this does not affect you?

 

[bertschb]

.... no one want(s) to see the company jeopardized...

I think all of us that are affected by laser cut parts needs to keep this important point in mind. Resolving this issue will take an enormous amount of effort and a significant amount of money for a company the size of Vans. I think it's reasonable to expect Vans to ship out replacement parts but it's unreasonable to expect Vans to ship completed replacement assemblies to people.

As I've said in previous posts - Vans needs our support right now as much as we need theirs. The employees at Vans are literally working overtime to help us. Let's be patient as they execute their plan.

 

[David Paule]

They need our goodwill, too.

Dave

 

[greghughespdx]

Greg,
Will the defective parts be replaced in sequential order from the original kit order date?
Reggie Everett

That won't be possible, due to the need to produce parts in a manner that is most efficient from a time and cost perspective (make x number of a given part, and manufacture parts with common materials together, etc.). That said, we will do our best to manufacture CNC-punched parts in batches that are timed and sized to allow us to ship kits and replacement parts as quickly and efficiently as possible. There won't be a perfect way to do this, but we'll do what we can.

 

[greghughespdx]

Does anyone know to what extent Van’s has outsourced their manufacturing? Have they always used third parties for making parts or is this a recent change? Is Van’s willing/able to add punch press capacity to bring all production in-house?

We have always outsourced some manufacturing. That includes some of the welding, machining, etc. The parts that are currently under review and were outsourced to the laser-cutting partners have historically been manufactured in-house using CNC punch presses. As of this month, we have returned the manufacturing of those parts to the CNC punch process, which we have used to manufacture RV parts for over 20 years.

And, we've also recently added an additional high-capacity punch press and new software to the factory floor which, in conjunction with additional staffing and shifts, has increased our punch press team's capacity and throughput.

 

[Mel]

I sincerely hope that Vans will be able to recover some of their losses from the "out-sources" that caused the problems.

 

[Tenjax145]

May I request from vans the option to order complete assemblies. I appreciate the willingness of Vans to replace laser cut parts, but I would be willing to purchase the remaining assembly to avoid disassembly of a complete structure. If anything, offer a discount price for individual pieces from the store. Rv-14 rudder is close to $300 less the laser cut parts.

 

[Tall_Order]

Will work on different part of project

It's likely that we will ask you to submit your list via a standardized web form sometime in the next few weeks to help standardize the way we are collecting information about replacement part requests

Aside from the "Laser Status" column possibly being updated, is the list of affected parts complete?

In any case, I'm looking forward to the replacement part ordering process being set up.

 

[Tlrguy]

May I request from vans the option to order complete assemblies. I appreciate the willingness of Vans to replace laser cut parts, but I would be willing to purchase the remaining assembly to avoid disassembly of a complete structure. If anything, offer a discount price for individual pieces from the store. Rv-14 rudder is close to $300 less the laser cut parts.

The replacement will definitely have to include the entirety of parts to completely rebuild an affected component, but doubtful most customers are going to be ok with footing the bill.

We already did that once.

 

[lampwins]

While that would be nice, I would think the 51% rule would at least be interesting here, being that Vans is the kit manufacturer? Might work out (as far as the FAA checklist goes), but likely would be on a build-by-build basis. Perhaps they could work something out with build assist folks, like Synergy Air.

I am right there with you though, having multiple assemblies complete, all because support said to build on when I raised issues with the laser cut parts many months ago.

May I request from vans the option to order complete assemblies. I appreciate the willingness of Vans to replace laser cut parts, but I would be willing to purchase the remaining assembly to avoid disassembly of a complete structure. If anything, offer a discount price for individual pieces from the store. Rv-14 rudder is close to $300 less the laser cut parts.

 

[deMan]

I’m curious about the considerations that went into making heat treated parts fourth testing priority.
Most rubs are heat treated so they are quite structural and the lack of vinyl makes it hard to tell whether they are punched or laser cut.

My guess is that a big part of the problem is the rapid heating of the laser causing internal stress and brittleness. Heat treating should remove that and leave material with identical properties to the punched one.


My wings just arrived and I honestly can’t tell if the ribs are laser cut or punched. They look pretty good to me but the date range creates some doubt. I’m debating on whether I want to pause the build or just use what looks like good parts to me and carry on.

 

[GrahamF]

My wings just arrived and I honestly can’t tell if the ribs are laser cut or punched. They look pretty good to me but the date range creates some doubt. I’m debating on whether I want to pause the build or just use what looks like good parts to me and carry on.

Look carefully at the holes. Laser cut holes are really obvious, or at least mine are. Comparing to the holes on a punched part is like night and day.

The holes on a punched part will all be identical, very round, and shouldn't have a notch in the circumference.

Laser cut holes are inconsistent - some look almost as good as a punched hole but many are not even close to round (10 thou difference between two diameters 90 degrees apart is common) and tend to have messy edges with an obvious notch at one point on the circumference.

Any scorch marks or slag/spatter on the part also indicate laser cutting.

 

[lr172]

Let me take a WAG…..this does not affect you?

You are correct. However I did purchase a partially complete kit and needed to disassemble numerous components to repair or replace parts, including spars, so I do empathize.

This quote is out of context. It was in response to someone suggesting vans send brand new complete kits to anyone with a questionable part inside. My goal was to keep this balanced, as if we go crazy here, we just push Vans into financial trouble, if they were even willing to go that far. We need to keep level heads and find a path where issues get resolved and both vans and the builder is not financially ruined in the process. Yes, it will be hard and yes, you will need to learn new skills to accomplish it.

Larry

 

[chromedome]

That won't be possible, due to the need to produce parts in a manner that is most efficient from a time and cost perspective (make x number of a given part, and manufacture parts with common materials together, etc.). That said, we will do our best to manufacture CNC-punched parts in batches that are timed and sized to allow us to ship kits and replacement parts as quickly and efficiently as possible. There won't be a perfect way to do this, but we'll do what we can.

Personally, I don't think that is the correct way to handle replacing faulty parts. I ordered my kit in January of 2022 and paid in full for the complete, slow-build kit. In this kit, I have 93 unusable laser-cut parts. This renders my kit worthless for months, if not years, to come. Highly unacceptable to ship the new, airworthy parts to customers that ordered their kits months after I ordered mine. It should only be done in the order of purchase.
Reggie Everett

 

[Jonnyb]

Can you imagine the time it would add to sorting this issue if they kept having to change the tooling in the presses for each individual kit in chronological order?

It’s just not time or cost efficient. And cost is going to be an issue or non of us will be getting pressed parts.

Yes it sucks, I waited 16 months for my fuse kit to be delivered (ordered November 21), quite a few waited longer than that. But it is what it is, and I would rather have Vans supporting my aircraft many years into the future than a set of parts tomorrow.

 

[georgemohr]

...I have 93 unusable laser-cut parts...
Reggie Everett

Do you consider all 93 unusable just because they are laser cut, or because they are of low quality and/or cracked? There's a big distinction here, and unless Vans comes back and invalidates all laser cut parts (highly unlikely), you might be much better off than you think. We really just need to wait for the results of their 'worst case' testing to conclude.

 

[chromedome]

George,

I think there will be a resale value issue if I use any laser cut parts

Reggie Everett

 

[lr172]

George,

I think there will be a resale value issue if I use any laser cut parts

Reggie Everett

That one will be interesting to watch play out. The market still greatly under values the 6 compared to the 7 for reasons I still don't understand. It goes to show that the market perception does not always follow reality.

 

[Tenjax145]

Do you consider all 93 unusable just because they are laser cut, or because they are of low quality and/or cracked? There's a big distinction here, and unless Vans comes back and invalidates all laser cut parts (highly unlikely), you might be much better off than you think. We really just need to wait for the results of their 'worst case' testing to conclude.

When comparing laser cut parts to punched parts, they are clearly inferior. Some builders were sold good punched parts, and some the inferior laser cut parts. Parts that are prone to cracks. If vans is now too to punch all the listed parts in the future, obviously laser cut is no good.

The question remains, to what degree does a builder with laser cut parts take it in the shorts because of the timeline when the ordered their kit? Order one now, you pay the same price, but get better parts.

I for one will not be installing any laser cut parts that are on the list with the exception of inspection panels. The unfortunate thing is, complete assemblies will either need to be disassembled or an entirely new one built.

 

[GrahamF]

There are two huge questions that we still need answered:

1. Where a laser-cut part (and especially a REPLACE part) is now emtombed in a completed assembly, will Van's supply the customer with the parts for a complete new assembly? The suggestion that customers should drill out almost every rivet in e.g. a horizontal stabilizer to replace HS-702 is beyond the pale.

2. Do the barcodes on the part stickers and Van's inventory system track the identity of an individual part including it's origin, method of manufacture and which customer it gets shipped to when it is scanned out? Or is it a basic stock control system where the barcodes simply say "this is an R-903" and the scans are just "has entered / left the building"?

 

[tenacious9]

You are correct. However I did purchase a partially complete kit and needed to disassemble numerous components to repair or replace parts, including spars, so I do empathize.

This quote is out of context. It was in response to someone suggesting vans send brand new complete kits to anyone with a questionable part inside. My goal was to keep this balanced, as if we go crazy here, we just push Vans into financial trouble, if they were even willing to go that far. We need to keep level heads and find a path where issues get resolved and both vans and the builder is not financially ruined in the process. Yes, it will be hard and yes, you will need to learn new skills to accomplish it.

Larry

It is a bit more than that.....I have a QB Fuse and QB Wing Kit plus the Empennage. It is a lot more than "learning new skills". I didn't sign up for this. I am not an IA or A&P, nor do I have the time to rip apart a wing and Fuse to repair and replace numerous parts. This is more than a design flaw or a few bad parts. Essentially, it is a catastrophic failure of a corporation trying to increase productivity through sloppy means. A Bulletin, Parts and instructions to fix isn't going to cut it.

Your experience may be different with Vans, but this is now a "New Vans Aircraft ". Van's actions have consequences. Subbing out has a long history of not working well. I hope in due course they make good and do right by those who are affected. I will firmly and fairly hold Vans accountable.

I am not ripping out Spars and fixing my QB kits. Sorry thats just too much to ask.


Question:


I'm hoping my kits while delivered in the time line, might have the old correctly made parts. Fingers crossed. Anybody have any detail on how the QB process works? I would imagine things are shipped via boat or rail slowing things down maybe pushing back the timeline of part used? On QB Kits could Vans, through visual inspection, even ascertain if the spar is laser cut as opposed to not?

 

[Jonnyb]

There are two huge questions that we still need answered:

1. Where a laser-cut part (and especially a REPLACE part) is now emtombed in a completed assembly, will Van's supply the customer with the parts for a complete new assembly? The suggestion that customers should drill out almost every rivet in e.g. a horizontal stabilizer to replace HS-702 is beyond the pale.

2. Do the barcodes on the part stickers and Van's inventory system track the identity of an individual part including it's origin, method of manufacture and which customer it gets shipped to when it is scanned out? Or is it a basic stock control system where the barcodes simply say "this is an R-903" and the scans are just "has entered / left the building"?

Graham,
Just to put some things into context, SB00036 has you replacing the rear spar of the HS if certain cracks are found. So it can be done and has been done as part of a safety bulletin.
And as regards the bar codes, not all parts have got them. Nearly all parts have labels with part number and date, but not all have bar codes.



Overall, I think it’s all going to rely on the results of the testing.
If the testing comes back and the parts are fine then I would not expect Vans to be replacing large assemblies because there are laser cut parts in it. If the builder wants to replace them then it’s the builders look out.
If on the other hand the testing comes back and there are issues, then it’s a safety problem and Vans need to help builders sort the issue. If that means shipping back a QB kit to Vans for repair, then so be it.

 

[dmattmul]

Part number differentiation

It would be nice to understand if Van's assigns the same part number to a piece that was produced with a very different process. I would think they would have to do this to optimize inventories and determine what they need to produce in-house vs third party. It would also give them some traceability if they had an issue in-house vs. an outside supplier. Co-mingling same parts from different suppliers with the same part number is never a good idea.

This is just my own personal opinion, but I am guessing QB kits will not be impacted as much as one would think.

 

[GrahamF]

Jonny, HS-702 is the front spar. One would have to almost completely disassemble the entire HS. The chances of that happening without writing off many other parts are close to zero.

That was my suspicion with the labels and barcodes. I feel that if the information about exactly who got what existed, we'd have had it by now.

As regards the testing, it's now less of an engineering matter and more a consumer confidence issue. What is certain is that in the future the market for used RVs will bifurcate into 1) RVs that can be proven by kit date or build log evidence to contain no laser-cut parts, and 2) those that cannot.

Other views are available, but if a builder-assembled completed assembly contains a part Van's are marking as REPLACE then I would expect Van's to supply parts for a whole new assembly. For a part that the testing process clears as good, I would not. This is not a service bulletin, it's a serious manufacturing flaw and for the most part affects aircraft that have not yet flown. The QB folks in some ways have a more straightforward problem to deal with because they can just reject the entire assembly if they consider it suspect.

Graham,
Just to put some things into context, SB00036 has you replacing the rear spar of the HS if certain cracks are found. So it can be done and has been done as part of a safety bulletin.
And as regards the bar codes, not all parts have got them. Nearly all parts have labels with part number and date, but not all have bar codes.



Overall, I think it’s all going to rely on the results of the testing.
If the testing comes back and the parts are fine then I would not expect Vans to be replacing large assemblies because there are laser cut parts in it. If the builder wants to replace them then it’s the builders look out.
If on the other hand the testing comes back and there are issues, then it’s a safety problem and Vans need to help builders sort the issue. If that means shipping back a QB kit to Vans for repair, then so be it.

 

[Tlrguy]

After a few weeks of agonizing over the fate of my project, I’ve come to the conclusion that at this point I need to sit back and let Van’s do their thing. My workshop is cleaned up and everything covered for short term storage.

I think I’ve come to terms with the situation and I know Van’s will be held accountable for their decision and make it right for the customer. The financial aspect of this really sucks, but for me it’s the time I can’t get back.

 

[Jonnyb]

The problem is that most RVs contains laser cut parts. Even now, if you look at the list there are several parts Vans are saying they won't replace unless the builder can find evidence of cracking.

Its going to be interesting to see how this plays out, but to try and differentiate between and RV with laser cut parts of one without is going to be nearly impossible. Except for those flying before all this kicked off. But even then how do you know it hasn't had a replacement aileron or elevator?

 

[Dan 57]

The problem is that most RVs contains laser cut parts

Luckily, not really... out of the 11'238 (as of today according to Vans homepage) RVs flying, only the latest ones might contain affected parts.

 

[Jonnyb]

Luckily, not really... out of the 11'238 (as of today according to Vans homepage) RVs flying, only the latest ones might contain affected parts.

I was under the impression Vans have been laser cutting some parts for years. The issues are around parts that are dimpled.

 

[dstates]

Jonny, HS-702 is the front spar. One would have to almost completely disassemble the entire HS. The chances of that happening without writing off many other parts are close to zero.


Other views are available, but if a builder-assembled completed assembly contains a part Van's are marking as REPLACE then I would expect Van's to supply parts for a whole new assembly. For a part that the testing process clears as good, I would not. This is not a service bulletin, it's a serious manufacturing flaw and for the most part affects aircraft that have not yet flown. The QB folks in some ways have a more straightforward problem to deal with because they can just reject the entire assembly if they consider it suspect.

I agree.... for items like rudders, horizontal stabilizers, vertical stabilizers, ailerons, and elevators where spars were laser cut, I expect Vans to supply the parts to build another one and I have to eat the lost time. Think about the elevators where we had to use pro-seal adhesive to glue the foam ribs to the rear spar. And then there are items like vertical stabilizers where we have match drilled them to rear tailcone bulkheads... I know it sucks for Vans but it sucks for us too.

 

[bertschb]

I was under the impression Vans have been laser cutting some parts for years.

Van's statement:
During the time period from approximately February 2022 to June 2023 , Van's Aircraft contracted with third party manufacturers to fabricate some aircraft kit parts using a laser-cutting process.

 

[Jonnyb]

Van's statement:
During the time period from approximately February 2022 to June 2023 , Van's Aircraft contracted with third party manufacturers to fabricate some aircraft kit parts using a laser-cutting process.

From Vans email:

All of the parts that were manufactured beginning in 2022 utilizing the laser cutting process are now being produced on CNC punch press machines, as they were before. A smaller number of non-dimpled or non-structural parts that have always been laser cut are still being manufactured that way.

Just so I know I'm not going mad!

 

[ccarlson]

Possibly a dumb question, but...

Ref: https://www.vansaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Laser-Cut-Part-List-Revision-2.pdf

In the "Laser Cut Parts Status Key," two of the cells in the right-most column include the text "see description at right."

I doubt it matters much, but to what descriptions do those refer?

 

[Everwild]

I hope there's guidance around good vs bad laser cut parts, and how to tell the difference, because I don't think that all laser cut parts are created the same.

I received my wing kit in Oct 22. Tackled the tanks first, and substructure for both wings are now complete. Just started riveting the top skin on the left wing. All on hold.

There's no sign of cracking on any of the parts so far. Tanks or wings.

The one exception is I struggled with the tank attach bracket shims. The #8 screw holes cracked when dimpled. I reordered several replacements and ultimately had to oversize, polish and lubricate the holes before dimpling them to get a no-crack result.

Then, I damaged one of my wings (closed the garage door on it) and ordered 3 replacement ribs in the April-May of 23 timeframe. Those ribs very clearly and obviously cracked when dimpled.

So it seems to me there are parts out there that are laser cut and dimple just fine, and others where some tolerance in the manufacturing allowed the edges to degrade enough that those parts crack when dimpled.

Not sure how Van's / builders are going to differentiate between one batch to another, because my results have been mixed.

My experience is they will crack if they are bad. And don't crack if within tolerances, laser cut or not. But not sure if that's a hard and fast rule.

I'm also not sure why my tank baffles would be a replace item when they are not dimpled and are not showing any signs of cracking.

 

[deMan]

Barcodes

For those wondering what’s in the barcodes on the parts labels: I just tested a reader app and it’s the part name. So for example on W-930 the barcode contains “W-930” as text.
Barcode readers usually work like keyboards. When a label is scanned whatever is encoded is sent to the computer as a series of keystrokes. The end effect is the same as typing the characters in manually. The barcode just makes it faster and eliminates human error.

 

[dmuro2]

Repair or rebuild?

Sorry for this. If your kits have not yet been crated and shipped, they will not contain laser-cut parts. We will email anyone who received the email, whose kits have not shipped, to clarify.

Hi Greg, thanks for diving in and answering questions here it’s been super helpful.

I’m curious if the statement above also applies to QB kits. My -10 QB fuselage is in cue for crating now.

I’m also eager to hear the solution for QB wings. The recommendation so far is to replace the wing spars and tank baffles, essentially drilling out and replacing a bulk of the wings, some of which is caked in Pro Seal. I’m a new builder and a little more than concerned about getting the glued-in tank baffles out without completely destroying the tanks in the process or introducing future debris from the partially removed tank sealant into the fuel system.

I also have the VS and R with laser cut spars to restore or rebuild and while it sounds relatively simple to “replace these parts”, as you know it’s a non-trivial task that involves drilling out hundreds of rivets, exponentially increasing the risk for mistakes (enlarging holes, etc). I’ve consistently heard from builder support and folks in this forum that drilling out rivets can often cause more damage than the bad rivet itself, which makes the task of replacing parts a daunting task.

If this was your plane, would you want to replace / repair or rebuild?

 

[Cessnadog]

Hi Greg, thanks for diving in and answering questions here it’s been super helpful.

I’m curious if the statement above also applies to QB kits. My -10 QB fuselage is in cue for crating now.

I’m also eager to hear the solution for QB wings. The recommendation so far is to replace the wing spars and tank baffles, essentially drilling out and replacing a bulk of the wings, some of which is caked in Pro Seal. I’m a new builder and a little more than concerned about getting the glued-in tank baffles out without completely destroying the tanks in the process or introducing future debris from the partially removed tank sealant into the fuel system.

I also have the VS and R with laser cut spars to restore or rebuild and while it sounds relatively simple to “replace these parts”, as you know it’s a non-trivial task that involves drilling out hundreds of rivets, exponentially increasing the risk for mistakes (enlarging holes, etc). I’ve consistently heard from builder support and folks in this forum that drilling out rivets can often cause more damage than the bad rivet itself, which makes the task of replacing parts a daunting task.

If this was your plane, would you want to replace / repair or rebuild?

I don’t think it is the wing spars, I think we are talking about flap and aileron spars. Those should be replaced as assemblies for the QB folks. I would think the same for the tanks since the Tank baffles need replaced and those are sealed with Pro-Seal. All easy so far.

The real question then is what about the rest of the parts in the wings? Those are being tested as we all debate this and I will wait and see what Van’s says.

I have hope that my QB Wings will be found acceptable with a simple replacement of bolt on parts.

Time will tell.
Tim

 

[willscaringe]

Reviewing the original laser video from Vans

It's educational to review the Jan 15, 2022 business update video from Vans where they discuss introducing the laser cutting process (https://youtu.be/KMTkDq2g-p0 starting at about the 11 min mark). A few commenters on that video expressed concerns about hardening around the laser cut holes and asked for more details.

Rian Johnson stated in that video that "all the internal components" would be laser cut out-of-house, but that the "spar components, thicker components, and the skins" will still be done in house. Apparently, that policy changed at some point.

A question for Vans is how many different laser cutting venders were used and did they all use the same laser and cutting process as was used in the fatigue testing? Rian stated that the laser cutting fatigue testing was completed in Dec 2021.

As many others have already expressed, I'm deeply concerned about this issue but I'm grateful that Vans has been and continues to be open about their processes and seems to be taking this issue head on.

 

[N8DAV8R]

It's educational to review the Jan 15, 2022 business update video from Vans where they discuss introducing the laser cutting process

"We're beginning to see the outcome of the changes we put in place"

Ouch

 

[dmattmul]

QB replacement parts

I don’t think it is the wing spars, I think we are talking about flap and aileron spars. Those should be replaced as assemblies for the QB folks. I would think the same for the tanks since the Tank baffles need replaced and those are sealed with Pro-Seal. All easy so far.

The real question then is what about the rest of the parts in the wings? Those are being tested as we all debate this and I will wait and see what Van’s says.

I have hope that my QB Wings will be found acceptable with a simple replacement of bolt on parts.

Time will tell.
Tim

So far, the parts they have identified as replace in all QB components seem to be fairly easy to accomplish IF they used laser cut parts for these applications. As Tim states just bolt on later....

 

[swift12]

Question for Greg

I understand the batching process and it was this that pushed my 7 wing kit out of 2021 into receiving it in 2023….from a 6 month lead time initially to an 18 month wait time. Now my Ribs need replacing…..if they are batched last again…..how many months will I need to wait to receive replacements? The 7’s and 8’s were the poor cousins when it came to batching but I believe it’s important to look to see who has waited the longest already in receiving replacement parts when setting up the batching process….thankyou.