Factory Info: Parts with Laser Cut Holes and Potential for Cracks

[greghughespdx]

Hi Everyone,

Below is a link to an information update regarding the issues customers have reported regarding laser cut holes appearing in some of the parts we've had manufactured via a laser-cutting process. That process was used to manufacture certain parts from February 2022 to June 2023. I'll include a brief summary here, and the complete details are at the link.

As many of you likely know: Some of the laser-cut parts made during that period have formed cracks in holes either when being dimpled by a builder, or when riveting a dimpled hole. There are a variety of variables that may contribute to this occurring.

Van's will manufacture and replace affected laser-cut dimpled parts with CNC punched parts. The linked update provides an initial description of our plan to prioritize that process, and we will update you as the process is executed and refined. We will also be communicating this issue and related details directly to customers over the next several days. We will also be publishing a list of affected parts and status for each later this week.

In addition, we are conducting tests along with a nationally recognized testing lab to fully understand the situation. This is a complex process, and we are committed to working hard on it and communicating with customers regularly throughout until the work is complete.

Finally, please understand that we will post any new information as we get it. When details become available, we will be able to share that information with our team at Van's and with you. We're committed to sharing what we know with you, as we know it, based on confirmed facts.

Link: Laser Cut Dimpled Holes Update - July 4, 2023

We will update this thread again later this week with any new information.

Thank you for your understanding and patience. We know this is a frustrating situation and we're committed to getting this resolved for customers who are affected.​

 

[DeltaRomeo]

Thanks for the update, Greg.

v/r,dr

 

[BrianP]

I really appreciate all the work Vans has put into this over the last few weeks. I can only imagine how difficult it is to manage an issue such as this. Thank you to all of the people at Vans who have been putting their time and energy into this, especially during a holiday. It’s very hard as a builder to know how to proceed constructing an aircraft in which most plan to take their family and friends. It’s good to know that Vans has the same interests in mind.

 

[mc607]

Thanks for the update Greg, but if you’re abandoning the laser cutting and going back to the traditional manufacturing process then what’s the purpose of all the testing. Seems to be throwing good money after bad.

 

[lampwins]

Completed assemblies?

Thank you Greg for the detailed update. Can you at some point soon comment on what the plan is for builders that have completed assemblies that are comprised of effected parts? For instance, getting to the spars on -10 rudders and elevators when the skins have already been rolled is going to be a nightmare.

 

[ryane67]

Thanks for the update Greg, but if you’re abandoning the laser cutting and going back to the traditional manufacturing process then what’s the purpose of all the testing. Seems to be throwing good money after bad.

Because as builders, if we are affected it is up to us to decide what to do about it in our planes. They are not yet saying we need to tear our kits apart and replace everything, the testing is going to provide us information so we can make educated decisions about our experimental aircraft.

I know I have affected parts in my un-built fuse kit and I will ask for some of them to be replaced.. however my wings are 100% done, and now I am wondering what to do about my ailerons and flaps, which may have those laser cut spars. I'm going to wait for the testing data to decide what to do on those, because I don't really want to tear them apart at the moment.

 

[bertschb]

Home run

Greg-

I think the leadership at Vans has come up with a superb plan to deal with this situation. Yes there are details yet to be worked out but I feel you are absolutely on the right track. I’m very confident now that Vans is making safety and customer satisfaction a top priority in dealing with these laser cut parts

You guys had a very short amount of time to work through some very complex issues - over a holiday weekend no less. The hard work from you and the rest of the team at Vans is very much appreciated.

I don’t want to sound too dramatic but I feel the way you are addressing this issue will end up being one of the most important events in the history of the company. There was a great deal at stake and I feel you hit it out of the park with your response. Now the really hard part - executing that plan!

Thank you again for your hard work!
-Brian

 

[maxmirot]

Thanks for the update Greg, but if you’re abandoning the laser cutting and going back to the traditional manufacturing process then what’s the purpose of all the testing. Seems to be throwing good money after bad.

If there is a bad spar out there we need to find out now before it fails.

 

[mc607]

“Even though testing of these specific parts is not yet complete, Van’s is erring on the side of caution by identifying those parts now and will recommend the replacement of these parts due to the relatively high loads carried by those specific parts.”

My question to Greg was based on this excerpt from their release.

 

[EJWash]

Greg, thanks for the effort to get ahead of this situation and keeping us updated. Patience and appreciation well deserved.

 

[maxmirot]

“Even though testing of these specific parts is not yet complete, Van’s is erring on the side of caution by identifying those parts now and will recommend the replacement of these parts due to the relatively high loads carried by those specific parts.”

My question to Greg was based on this excerpt from their release.

I think some of the communication is a bit confusing.

 

[TechSupport]

Thanks everyone at Vans for working this over the weekend and holiday. Really appreciate everything that has been and plan to be done!

 

[Tlrguy]

Oh wow. Please know that providing replacement parts to anyone with a completed component is not going to be an acceptable solution.

We are all aware of the labor invested in these airplanes. The remedy for this issue will need many paths tailored around the level of project completion.

Don’t discount the thought of complete kit buy back.

 

[inktomi]

Thank you for the update! This really gives a lot of confidence in my build, and I'm glad that my pending quickbuild kits will receive extra attention for this issue before they ship to me.

 

[dstates]

The following quote from Van's only tells half of the story... we need to know what is next.

Currently, the parts of greatest potential concern are the following laser-cut parts:
Vertical stabilizer, rudder, and elevator spars on all RV-7, RV-8, RV-9, RV-10, and RV-14 empennage/tail kits;
Horizontal stabilizer spars in RV-7/8 empennage kits;
Some flap and aileron spars that were shipped early in the laser-cutting process, in RV-7, RV-8, RV-9, RV-10, and RV-14 kits


These area all items that get built first in these kits. So if the bad parts were sent out last year, there probably aren't too many of them just sitting on a shelf in someone's garage anymore, they are all part of completed assemblies.
Here are my questions for Van's.
-Do these need to get replaced no matter what? If not then:
-What if you can't see to inspect?
-What are we supposed to do to inspect them?
-What do you do if you find cracks in the spars?
-If you do have cracks, do we have to completely disassemble and rebuild with parts that have drilled out rivet holes or do we get new parts for new assemblies?
-What about all the match drilled holes (for example the vertical stabilizer spar to tailcone bulkheads on my -14)?

I know there is more info to come, but hopefully this helps them know some of our concerns....

 

[lr172]

Oh wow. Please know that providing replacement parts to anyone with a completed component is not going to be an acceptable solution.

I realize that the current state of kits produces an "erector set" approach to building. However, ALL builders should still be builders. Remember that we are manufacturing an airplane and the responsibility is ours. If the skill necessary to remove a spar is not within the current capability set, builders should find a way to add it. I am sure Vans will make a video or detailed instructions to help builders develop this skill in response to this issue. I was very impressed with the video that they made on sealing fuel tanks. I believe this was in response to the large number of builders that struggle in that area.

Vans is manufacturing kits. When their supplier makes an error, they address it by replacing kit parts to "make it right." YOU, OTOH, are the aircraft manufacturer and when your supplier (i.e. Vans) makes an error, YOU fix it with the replacement parts that they provide to address the error. Don't mean to be harsh, but this is how it works. No different than all of the SB issues identified. Vans makes new and improved parts and WE are expected to retrofit the fixes. They are not going to replace your airplane just because the HS spar they provided developed cracks around the hinge plate rivet holes. They rightfully assume that if you built an airplane, you will be able to pull back a skin and add a doubler.

I would think differently about QB kits and would expect the supplier to fully replace the complete part that had flaws on the component's sub-parts, as it was their job to provide a complete part, not just the components. Though I would be surprised if they didn't offer some $ to have you make the repair, just like they did when they found the corrosion on the QB parts. The problem with that is lead time. Probably a whole lot faster to learn to replace the parts yourself.

Larry

 

[BillL]

Oh wow. Please know that providing replacement parts to anyone with a completed component is not going to be an acceptable solution.

This what gravity feels like . . . keep testing.

Vans is growing from a small company and has had low overhead costs to provide us with kits. A small company has growing pains and so do builders. It takes quite high volume to cover the overhead of a top notch QC organization and to maintain it.

Vans has always had issues (all companies do) and always addressed them at full speed if they were (potentially) safety related. They have provided solid but low cost solutions to the issues. As they grow, the challenge of costs will grow to keep the inevitable under control. Parts, expertise, and solid analysis for correction of issues is the baseline they have always met.

I had some serious do overs for build issues on my -7. Maybe my fault, but certainly my lack of experience prevented getting it addressed way sooner. Two of these added 40 hours each of labor to get fixed - - it is part of the process. The mindset of blame has to be set aside and concentrate on the goal, quality build and finish the airplane. It just has to be done. Once that is addressed, things go forward and the joy of accomplishment erases any pain of hiccups, no matter how large. No hurtle for a dreamer.

 

[Cessnadog]

Let me start with thanks for Van’s for their attention to this problem. I really do appreciate the transparency and understand that more answers are coming.

That said, I will pile on with another question.
I bought QB wings at least partially to not have to worry about building flaps and ailerons.
Assuming my flaps and ailerons do have the laser cut spars, can I assume that Van’s will replace those as assemblies? Or will I need to disassemble and rebuild them? It would seem to me that since I paid for them to be assembled I should not have to dis and re assemble them.

Thanks!!
Tim

 

[Bullpup]

I realize that the current state of kits produces an "erector set" approach to building. However, ALL builders should still be builders. Remember that we are manufacturing an airplane and the responsibility is ours. If the skill necessary to remove a spar is not within the current capability set, builders should find a way to add it. I am sure Vans will make a video or detailed instructions to help builders develop this skill in response to this issue. I was very impressed with the video that they made on sealing fuel tanks. I believe this was in response to the large number of builders that struggle in that area.

Vans is manufacturing kits. When their supplier makes an error, they address it by replacing kit parts to "make it right." YOU, OTOH, are the aircraft manufacturer and when your supplier (i.e. Vans) makes an error, YOU fix it with the replacement parts that they provide to address the error. Don't mean to be harsh, but this is how it works. No different than all of the SB issues identified. Vans makes new and improved parts and WE are expected to retrofit the fixes. They are not going to replace your airplane just because the HS spar they provided developed cracks around the hinge plate rivet holes. They rightfully assume that if you built an airplane, you will be able to pull back a skin and add a doubler.

I would think differently about QB kits and would expect the supplier to fully replace the complete part that had flaws on the component's sub-parts, as it was their job to provide a complete part, not just the components. Though I would be surprised if they didn't offer some $ to have you make the repair, just like they did when they found the corrosion on the QB parts. The problem with that is lead time. Probably a whole lot faster to learn to replace the parts yourself.

Larry

I don't disagree with the overall concept - we're building for a reason! I do think there is some question about potential damage or wear required to make replacements. For example, fuel tank ribs are among the laser cut parts. If Van's determines these to be unacceptable in the long run, it is not realistic to simply replace individual components in a fully-sealed fuel tank. Similarly, drilling out every rivet in the leading edge of a wing will likely result in worse quality than simply replacing the LE overall.

As we get more information on the affected parts and recommended rework this will become more clear, but I can certainly see areas where a completed assembly will have issues beyond part replacement.

 

[Derek.plough]

Completed assemblies…

Well, personally I don’t want to drill out spars on completed assemblies of a brand new plane with zero hours. Referring to the advice in section 5 I’d rather spend the time to rebuild them in their entirety. That being said, our time is money and I don’t think that their is a perfect solution. We’ll see what they say.

 

[Bavafa]

Luckily I am not affected as my plane was completed in Jan of 2022 and never saw any examples of those laser cut holes in my kit. But if I had to remove skins, ribs to replace a defective spar, I would not be a happy camper or satisfied customer. At the minimum, I would have hoped to get entire new parts to rebuild again as it would take less time to rebuild than to remove all those rivets just to replace a part inside the structure.

VANS is growing fast and that is a good thing but they also need to be extra mindful of that and plan it in such way that they can be as successful and reputable as they have been as a small company.

My 2 cents on the subject.

 

[Kyle Boatright]

Given that Van's has said they will reach out directly to kit owners (presumably with proposed solutions), I wouldn't be making judgements at this point.

I'm sure the fine folks at Van's are going through a thousand scenarios and contingencies right now to come up with the best way to make everything "right" to the best of their ability.

 

[cactusman]

Hi Everyone,

Below is a link to an information update regarding the issues customers have reported regarding laser cut holes appearing in some of the parts we've had manufactured via a laser-cutting process. That process was used to manufacture certain parts from February 2022 to June 2023. I'll include a brief summary here, and the complete details are at the link.

As many of you likely know: Some of the laser-cut parts made during that period have formed cracks in holes either when being dimpled by a builder, or when riveting a dimpled hole. There are a variety of variables that may contribute to this occurring.

Van's will manufacture and replace affected laser-cut dimpled parts with CNC punched parts. The linked update provides an initial description of our plan to prioritize that process, and we will update you as the process is executed and refined. We will also be communicating this issue and related details directly to customers over the next several days. We will also be publishing a list of affected parts and status for each later this week.

In addition, we are conducting tests along with a nationally recognized testing lab to fully understand the situation. This is a complex process, and we are committed to working hard on it and communicating with customers regularly throughout until the work is complete.

Finally, please understand that we will post any new information as we get it. When details become available, we will be able to share that information with our team at Van's and with you. We're committed to sharing what we know with you, as we know it, based on confirmed facts.

Link: Laser Cut Dimpled Holes Update - July 4, 2023

We will update this thread again later this week with any new information.

Thank you for your understanding and patience. We know this is a frustrating situation and we're committed to getting this resolved for customers who are affected.​

Would it be possible to get specific start and stop dates so we can start to self assess based on our shipping dates?

 

[ryane67]

Would it be possible to get specific start and stop dates so we can start to self assess based on our shipping dates?

They announced laser cutting to fill demand in a 1/15/22 YouTube video.. I can say that my -14 emp kit that was crated in late Feb and delivered to Michigan mid March did not have any laser cut parts and initial inspection yesterday revealed no cracking dimples like I found in my fuselage kit. That doesn't mean yours crated the day before or day after is affected any more or less.

Vans systems are not Amazon, it's going to take them a little time to both identify affected builders and also properly write up, and operationalize on their side.. what to do if you are affected. The best thing we can do right now is let them execute the plan they have outlined and give them some grace. This is a bad situation for everyone.

 

[gasman]

If a builder was to follow the the steps in section 5... https://www.vansaircraft.com/faq/section-5-general-information/ ... (5.2) the part should have been rejected and not continue the build until the situation was corrected.

If you have built on after not following the steps (5.2) in Section 5, then how can you expect Van's to pay for a finished part that was not built I.A.W. the supplied instructions.
View attachment 44830

 

[Tlrguy]

If a builder was to follow the the steps in section 5... https://www.vansaircraft.com/faq/section-5-general-information/ ... (5.2) the part should have been rejected and not continue the build until the situation was corrected.

If you have built on after not following the steps (5.2) in Section 5, then how can you expect Van's to pay for a finished part that was not built I.A.W. the supplied instructions.
View attachment 44830

To the naked eye, these flawed holes can be hard to detect. Put a 10x jewelers loupe up to said hole, and they look just as pictured.

 

[BillL]

Magnifier.

To the naked eye, these flawed holes can be hard to detect. Put a 10x jewelers loupe up to said hole, and they look just as pictured.

Standard builder tool.

 

[JeremyL]

A710

I had the A-710 angle bundle that was laser cut in May/June last year (2022) with horrendous quality and slag all over it from the process. I contacted support and they advised it was acceptable and to continue building. I was definitely not happy with the product and support said it would not cause any issue and any replacement pieces would be of the same. So I sanded and blended the living **** out of the pieces as well as final reamed the holes. I didn’t notice any cracking but I also didn’t look under a microscope. This was the only pieces I can remember receiving that were laser cut and of this laughable quality. So now I’m just left wondering if my ailerons will be ok.

It sort of seems like the major cracking issues are with the newer “final hole size” kits. No significant evidence but the quick glances seem to be associated with the 14. Not sure how you’ll make all this right Vans but I have faith you will.

 

[lampwins]

Because when photos almost identical to yours were sent into support with questions on how to proceed, the response was to build on

If a builder was to follow the the steps in section 5... https://www.vansaircraft.com/faq/section-5-general-information/ ... (5.2) the part should have been rejected and not continue the build until the situation was corrected.

If you have built on after not following the steps (5.2) in Section 5, then how can you expect Van's to pay for a finished part that was not built I.A.W. the supplied instructions.
View attachment 44830

 

[Brantel]

If you have built on after not following the steps (5.2) in Section 5, then how can you expect Van's to pay for a finished part that was not built I.A.W. the supplied instructions.
View attachment 44830

Because in many cases builders were told that engineering has blessed the parts and the testing proves it is not an issue and to build on.

 

[lappadoodle42]

Any updates?

Has anyone been contacted by the company yet? The notice said they would reach out this week. I’d love to know what guidance they’ve provided thus far.

I’ve had to reread the notice a few times. It says pause building on parts that include laser cut spars. Nothing I can do right now about my already built Vert Stab and Rudder, the horizontal stab has laser cut ribs only though… wondering if they’re telling people to build on with those parts.

My kit has so many laser cut parts, I’m stuck on all assemblies till this gets resolved.

 

[sc_pilot]

So I’m not sure if anyone has asked this. Is it safe to say that if parts have blue film they’re most likely punched and not laser cut? Parts in my 12iS that were laser cut appeared to not have blue film on them. Some thick parts without blue film were obvious that they were punched but I’m talking about all the parts out of thinner material. The parts I remember being laser cut in mine I don’t think are problematic since they aren’t dimpled but will wait to hear the official results. I’m still excited to be building and want to see my plane fly, even if there’s some rebuilding involved.

 

[JP4]

So I’m not sure if anyone has asked this. Is it safe to say that if parts have blue film they’re most likely punched and not laser cut? Parts in my 12iS that were laser cut appeared to not have blue film on them. Some thick parts without blue film were obvious that they were punched but I’m talking about all the parts out of thinner material. The parts I remember being laser cut in mine I don’t think are problematic since they aren’t dimpled but will wait to hear the official results. I’m still excited to be building and want to see my plane fly, even if there’s some rebuilding involved.

I believe you are correct about the blue film. I got my 12is empennage kit last August. I've barely started in on it, but did take a quick look last night and many of the parts are laser cut, though I think few that will be dimpled. Under a magnifying glass I could see that the holes on many parts aren't as clean as the punched parts, but I haven't seen any big notches yet. Most of that kit was produced June and July of last year.
I just picked up my wing kit in March. I did the initial inventory, but haven't gone back in the boxes yet to see if there are laser cut parts yet.

 

[jemer]

Request for non laser part

Re RV-10 VS rib. A few weeks ago, I damaged a VS rib, VS-1005. My emp kit did not appear to have any laser cut parts. The original VS-1005 had blue film and no scorch marks. I ordered a replacement part and it was a laser cut part with no blue film and scorch marks(Oct 22). I contacted vans parts two days ago to request a non laser part. I was told to contact builder support during support hours. I think the support phone system was troubled so sent email requesting the non laser cut part. Pictures were requested and sent. When I inquired about getting a non laser cut VS-1005 part, I was told those requests/emails for non laser cut parts were being collected and forwarded to engineering and they did not know whether this part would be again available as non laser cut.

I will hold off installing this rib for further direction from vans.

 

[cactusman]

Maybe I missed it but I was surprised the initial announcement didn't make the front page. I just texted with a RV10 builder and he didn't know about the stop work UFN involving laser fabricated parts.

[ed. Good question and perfectly reasonable to ask. I held off on that until I get the next round of more-detailed info from the mothership...the info that should have more meat to it. It was a gut decision - I guess my initial thought process was I didn't want to swamp the factory with calls until they had more detail-specific info to share. Anyway, that was the reasoning, if it helps. The next intel I get from the factory will be a news item on the front page. v/r,dr]

 

[bkc3921]

Well....I'm lost...

So I’m not sure if anyone has asked this. Is it safe to say that if parts have blue film they’re most likely punched and not laser cut? Parts in my 12iS that were laser cut appeared to not have blue film on them. Some thick parts without blue film were obvious that they were punched but I’m talking about all the parts out of thinner material. The parts I remember being laser cut in mine I don’t think are problematic since they aren’t dimpled but will wait to hear the official results. I’m still excited to be building and want to see my plane fly, even if there’s some rebuilding involved.

Did I miss something...? Your post talks about your 12is laser cut parts...No where in the release from Van's do I see that the -12 is mentioned in any way. I was under the impression the -12 was not affected, but now you have me wondering......almost done with mine, but I might have to go back and check dates of shipment if -12's are affected. Can anyone straighten this out for me...?

 

[JP4]

Did I miss something...? Your post talks about your 12is laser cut parts...No where in the release from Van's do I see that the -12 is mentioned in any way. I was under the impression the -12 was not affected, but now you have me wondering......almost done with mine, but I might have to go back and check dates of shipment if -12's are affected. Can anyone straighten this out for me...?

My 12is empennage parts that are laser cut are dated mostly June and July of 2022. I'm guessing the reason Vans didn't specially call out the 12is is because the parts affected are probably not spars or parts that get dimpled. I'm about to poke around in my wing kit to see if I see and laser cut parts in that.

 

[JP4]

My 12is empennage parts that are laser cut are dated mostly June and July of 2022. I'm guessing the reason Vans didn't specially call out the 12is is because the parts affected are probably not spars or parts that get dimpled. I'm about to poke around in my wing kit to see if I see and laser cut parts in that.

Ok, I just cracked open my wing crates and virtually all the parts are punch press, covered in blue plastic.
Picked it up May 8th. Some of the ribs are dated 4/23 and some 5/21.

 

[sc_pilot]

Did I miss something...? Your post talks about your 12is laser cut parts...No where in the release from Van's do I see that the -12 is mentioned in any way. I was under the impression the -12 was not affected, but now you have me wondering......almost done with mine, but I might have to go back and check dates of shipment if -12's are affected. Can anyone straighten this out for me...?

No where in the “official” release. But I believe there was something mentioned in a previous thread about the 12iS stabilator was tested to the equivalent of 30k flight hours as a laser cut stabilator with oversized laser cut holes. I don’t want to make any speculations based on the non-official thread for this topic, but if they were testing the 12iS stabilator, the 12 might be involved in this to some extent even if not dimpled.

I can say my 12 kit has laser cut parts. Specifically my vertical stab spar was laser cut with slag on two holes. My floorboards infront of the seats, some parts on the anti servo tab/stabilator, and wingtip I believe were also laser cut. I took delivery of my emp/wings July-Aug 22 and my fuse May 23. I found in both kits, parts that were dated really old and extremely new. Some from 2020 and some from as recent as a week or two before my kit was delivered. I’m not terribly worried as it seems there was some sorting of parts that went into my kit given really old and really recent dates. And all these parts are installed now and appear fine but I will be going back and giving them a good look over again.

 

[Brantel]

Did I miss something...? Your post talks about your 12is laser cut parts...No where in the release from Van's do I see that the -12 is mentioned in any way. I was under the impression the -12 was not affected, but now you have me wondering......almost done with mine, but I might have to go back and check dates of shipment if -12's are affected. Can anyone straighten this out for me...?

The 12 kits were/are definitely affected and many have laser cut parts. On my tail, none of the parts had issues. On the fuse none of them have issues. On my wings some of the ribs do have issues but are holes that don’t get dimples.

I have yet to make up my mind on what to do about the wing ribs….

 

[cactusman]

Maybe I missed it but I was surprised the initial announcement didn't make the front page. I just texted with a RV10 builder and he didn't know about the stop work UFN involving laser fabricated parts.

[ed. Good question and perfectly reasonable to ask. I held off on that until I get the next round of more-detailed info from the mothership...the info that should have more meat to it. It was a gut decision - I guess my initial thought process was I didn't want to swamp the factory with calls until they had more detail-specific info to share. Anyway, that was the reasoning, if it helps. The next intel I get from the factory will be a news item on the front page. v/r,dr]

Thanks- makes sense.

As a point of reference my RV10 Fuselage Kit was shipped 8/23/22 and I went thru the parts today. I have approximately 24 laser cut part numbers, most of the dates range from 5/22 -7/22. Several have rough holes and burn marks. Some of the parts have been burnished around some of the holes I guess to remove a bad burn? I dunno.

All told I’m considering myself lucky. Procrastinating and pilot shortages and overtime have probably saved me a lot of labor.

 

[flyinlow74]

I contacted Vans Kit Status team via email Wednesday. They were perfectly willing to hold onto my RV10 QB wings until the engineering studies are done and the status of laser cut parts is known. Our QB fuse and finish kit were picked up today. Vans held on to the wings. The Kit Status team stated via text that "...Vans will cover the difference in shipping cost..." when the wings are eventually shipped. Our thought is the fuse kit is easier to inspect/repair, and there's a ton of work to do in the fuse verses the wings anyway. We've waited 22 months and are anxious to get building again. Regarding "communication from the mother ship", I have not heard from engineering or tech support teams to date. I'm sure they're swamped.

 

[greghughespdx]

Everyone,

Our team continues to work diligently on updated information, including finalizing the list we will publish of all parts from each kit that were laser-cut at any point in time between February 2022 and June 2023. The number of kits, parts, and permutations that we need to review, check, and validate is significant so it is taking some time. Our staff is working late this evening and into the weekend if necessary to complete this, and we will post the information as soon as that process is complete.

The list will include classification information for each part and, where and when applicable, testing-related information. In addition, once the list is published we will begin emailing customers who received kits during the time period that could contain affected parts.

I will post another update here, and we will update the information on our website when the parts list and other information are available.​

 

[greghughespdx]

I wanted to answer a few questions here before gets to be tomorrow. Can't get to them all tonight, but there have been a few themes, so...

I'm sure they're swamped.

I'm sure the fine folks at Van's are going through a thousand scenarios and contingencies right now to come up with the best way to make everything "right" to the best of their ability.

You're both pretty much spot on. We're working on it, every day and late into the evenings. There are a lot of variables, and a lot of things to check and re-check.

The 12 kits were/are definitely affected and many have laser cut parts. On my tail, none of the parts had issues. On the fuse none of them have issues. On my wings some of the ribs do have issues but are holes that don’t get dimples.

Our team has conducted tests that push the RV-12 stabilator to its design limit load, over and over again. Those tests evaluated oversized (too large is generally bad) laser-cut holes, which do not get dimpled, in combination with the pulled rivets used on the RV-12. The plan that dictates how this test is completed, equates each limit load cycle in the test to one hour of aircraft operation in a flight school (rough on airplanes) environment. Our test was run to in excess of 30,000 limit load cycles (so, representative of more than 30K flight school training hours). The structure showed no signs of deformity, fatigue, or any other issues upon completion of the test.

We've also completed fatigue testing of a set of coupons prepared with oversized holes that were laser-cut in the same materials used on the RV-12, as well as an identical set of coupons prepared with CNC-punched holes. In those tests, the fatigue life was found to be equivalent between the oversized laser-cut holes and the nominal CNC-punched holes.

I don’t want to make any speculations based on the non-official thread for this topic, but if they were testing the 12iS stabilator, the 12 might be involved in this to some extent even if not dimpled.

The issues that have been reported related to cracks forming in the field have been on dimpled holes with solid rivets, on other RV models rather than with the hole/fastener types used on the RV-12. The reason we tested the RV-12 in the first place was to determine and validate the relative lifespan and fatigue characteristics of oversize laser-cut holes as compared to nominal punched holes.

Maybe I missed it but I was surprised the initial announcement didn't make the front page. I just texted with a RV10 builder and he didn't know about the stop work UFN involving laser fabricated parts.

[ed. Good question and perfectly reasonable to ask. I held off on that until I get the next round of more-detailed info from the mothership...the info that should have more meat to it. It was a gut decision - I guess my initial thought process was I didn't want to swamp the factory with calls until they had more detail-specific info to share. Anyway, that was the reasoning, if it helps. The next intel I get from the factory will be a news item on the front page. v/r,dr]

FYI, emails will be going out to individual builders over the next several days, starting as soon as we have the final, validated parts list for each sub-kit ready.

And, yes we're pretty swamped - although I will say we appreciate all the words of support and understanding via your calls, emails, and online as our team crunches a lot of data and prepares customer info. Our folks do see and hear what's said, and FWIW it helps sometimes when the days get extra-long!

So I’m not sure if anyone has asked this. Is it safe to say that if parts have blue film they’re most likely punched and not laser cut?

If it has the blue film on it, you can know for certain that it was CNC punched. It was not laser-cut.

That said, if there is no blue film on a part, that doesn't necessarily indicate that the part was laser-cut. There are some CNC-punched parts that get heat-treated before being formed/shaped that do not have blue film on them. The parts list that we are preparing to publish will include information about whether the parts were ever made using laser cutting and on which date any given laser-cut part was first available to be shipped to builders (as well as if they are heat-treated parts, I believe).

Would it be possible to get specific start and stop dates so we can start to self-assess based on our shipping dates?

That information (at least the date on which each part was first available to be picked and shipped as a laser-cut part) will be included in the parts list that we will be publishing. We can't provide a guaranteed "finish" or "last" date for each part, since it's always at least somewhat possible that parts on the shelf could have been shipped out of order. We'd be close, but can't really say with absolute certainty. So, we prefer to err on the side of caution and not publish any end dates. We think and hope the "start" dates will be useful.

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I'll work to answer more questions soon. Right now our team is focused on validating and publishing the affected parts, prioritization of part manufacturing and testing, and quite a few other related tasks. Thanks once again for your understanding and support as we work though this.​

 

[scrollF4]

Greg's post landed in VAF at 1:28 am Texas time (11:28 Oregon time) on a Friday night. Clearly they're burning the midnight oil at the Mothership. Thanks for the update Greg.

 

[Thermos]

Although it's painful for everyone involved, Van's approach of tackling this problem head-on with transparency and frequent comms is the best way to deal with it. You only need look at other aircraft companies in the Pacific Northwest to see what happens when problems are ignored or concealed.

Thanks Greg and Van's for taking the high road...

ds

 

[lr172]

Greg's post landed in VAF at 1:28 am Texas time (11:28 WA time) on a Friday night. Clearly they're burning the midnight oil at the Mothership. Thanks for the update Greg.

You can't help but appreciate how seriously they are to committed to safety, as well as recognizing the impact this move had on their customers. Unfortunately in today's environment this is not universal and shows that Vans is one of "the Good guys" out there.

 

[maxmirot]

The bulletin states that most spars in the tail and wing control surfaces will have to be replaced. That's going to be heartbreaking.

 

[airguy]

The bulletin states that most spars in the tail and wing control surfaces will have to be replaced. That's going to be heartbreaking.

Not nearly as much so as the funeral after a crash....

It's a piece of equipment. Fix it.

 

[Jonnyb]

This level of support is the reason I bought a Vans kit and no one else’s.
That and the fact their aircraft are way cool!