Factory Info: Parts with Laser Cut Holes and Potential for Cracks

[Michael Burbidge]

More photos please

Tlrguy, can you post a few photos (40x) of riveted laser cut holes with cracks? i.e. with the rivet still installed.

The picture you posted of the laser cut hole that was dimpled does not appear to have a crack.

 

[dwollen89]

For the guys building non-final sized hole kits, I'd think that final size drilling/reaming, combined with deburring, would likely take care of any issues. I looked at some of my parts that were likely laser cut, but had since been processed, and I think they look good. Now I didn't look at it through a loop, but I also think that's overkill.

Barring an obvious crack that is visible to the naked eye after dimpling, I think this is more of a monitor and inspect situation. I've been told more than once that these are tractors, not swiss watches. If a crack develops, I'd like to think that it would get caught at inspection time before it caused any major issues. Especially if you know there could be a predisposition to cracking. I currently fly a Grumman. If you're not familiar, Grumman uses bonding agents instead of rivets to adhere the skins. There have been issues with delamination, so that's monitored and inspected.

It's all just conjecture at this point as we wait to hear back from Vans. But I'm just thinking out loud.

 

[spatsch]

This. A crack that is visible only under magnification is still a crack.

With sufficient magnification any surface has cracks / looks uneven. If that’s the standard no airplane should have ever flown. The question is what’s acceptable and what is not and I certainly don’t know.

Oliver

 

[chromedome]

With sufficient magnification any surface has cracks / looks uneven. If that’s the standard no airplane should have ever flown. The question is what’s acceptable and what is not and I certainly don’t know.

Oliver

AC 43.13-1B and 2B .....Techniques and practices published by the FAA, is very clear on cracks in rivet holes.

Reggie Everett

-------------------------------
RV-14A building in progress
RV-12 flying
A&P
Rotax IRMT 9 Series
30k PIC

 

[Jonnyb]

AC 43.13-1B and 2B .....Techniques and practices published by the FAA, is very clear on cracks in rivet holes.

Reggie Everett

-------------------------------
RV-14A building in progress
RV-12 flying
A&P
Rotax IRMT 9 Series
30k PIC

So is Section 5 of the build manual.

 

[bruceh]

AC 43.13-1B and 2B .....Techniques and practices published by the FAA, is very clear on cracks in rivet holes.

Actually, no. I don't see anything related to cracked dimples in good old AC43.13.
Dimpling is mentioned in AC65-15 (from 1972) on pages 167 and 170-172. The only mention of cracking in dimples is this:

The 2024-T aluminum alloy can be satisfactorily
coin dimpled either hot or cold. However, cracking
in the vicinity of the dimple may result from cold
dimpling because of hard spots in the metal. Hot
dimpling will prevent such cracking.

I don't think the "thermo-dimpling" method as mentioned in this AC is appropriate for our RV's. It is specialized equipment used way back in the day on aircraft using 2024-T81, 7075-T6 and magnesium alloys. Just like we don't use ice-box rivets today, some of these AC's talk about and give guidance on obsolete practices. The AC's from the FAA are ancient! Just imagine them giving advice on a laser cut hole.

My sheet metal instructor had some guidance on cracks around dimples, but I can't find where he got this information. Basically, if you have a single crack in a dimple it was OK, as long as it didn't extend the full length of the dimpled edge, and you could have two cracks as long as they weren't within 120 degrees of each other.

 

[dstates]

My sheet metal instructor had some guidance on cracks around dimples, but I can't find where he got this information. Basically, if you have a single crack in a dimple it was OK, as long as it didn't extend the full length of the dimpled edge, and you could have two cracks as long as they weren't within 120 degrees of each other.

I've seen that for brake pad rivets... not normal aluminum sheet rivets.

 

[gotyoke]

My sheet metal instructor had some guidance on cracks around dimples, but I can't find where he got this information. Basically, if you have a single crack in a dimple it was OK, as long as it didn't extend the full length of the dimpled edge, and you could have two cracks as long as they weren't within 120 degrees of each other.

Do you remember whether that advice applied to a dimple here or there, or if it applied to a structure where nearly every single dimple has small cracks? We are in the latter situation.

Entertaining all this speculation is really just a way for me to pass the time while we await Van's test results. I could instead spend the time disassembling some riveted assemblies that contain laser-cut parts, and that might be more productive.

 

[chromedome]

Actually, no. I don't see anything related to cracked dimples in good old AC43.13.
Dimpling is mentioned in AC65-15 (from 1972) on pages 167 and 170-172. The only mention of cracking in dimples is this:


I don't think the "thermo-dimpling" method as mentioned in this AC is appropriate for our RV's. It is specialized equipment used way back in the day on aircraft using 2024-T81, 7075-T6 and magnesium alloys. Just like we don't use ice-box rivets today, some of these AC's talk about and give guidance on obsolete practices. The AC's from the FAA are ancient! Just imagine them giving advice on a laser cut hole.

My sheet metal instructor had some guidance on cracks around dimples, but I can't find where he got this information. Basically, if you have a single crack in a dimple it was OK, as long as it didn't extend the full length of the dimpled edge, and you could have two cracks as long as they weren't within 120 degrees of each other.

Bruce,

".....Drill holes round, straight and free from cracks" After I finish-drill there is sometimes a very small bulge outside the diameter of the drill bit. After I dimple it, a crack or eroded looking area appear. I first noticed the issue when Cleco fasteners on some parts wouldn't hold. The laser hole isn't even round! looks like you received good parts in the past, and that's all I'm asking for.

Reggie

 

[swift12]

Having a vested interest in this with some laser cut parts to be replaced (I can confirm my rv7 laser cut ribs all crack upon dimpling after cleaning up with a reamer debur and scotch brite at the point of the “notch” I and assume I have some of the bad laser parts from one vendor) I’d like to see vans succeed. This is not a huge company but has a huge problem. We all want and need their success to be able to continue to support our aircraft. As much as I’d like my replacement parts immediately I also want to ensure they have had the time to rectify this in a viable way. This is a lot of stress for those caught up in the laser cut issue including Vans. I’m in the lucky camp of having 45 parts to be replaced none of which are fitted but I really feel for those with QB or completed structures. It’s fair to say conjecture will not change the outcome. Time and evaluation will.

Just as we have learnt as builders the right way to do things and the wrong way (how we learn) Vans are in that process now.
Should we wait a little longer to see the outcome of analysis and testing for those completed structures….hopefully the issue will become clearer after that. Maybe not all the laser parts are bad.
Vans have already said laser parts can be replaced upon request when that process is put in place which I eagerly await.

One thing is clear though. I still want the company to succeed or we are kinda biting the hand that feeds us.

 

[DonMcKee]

Kit status page update ETA?

Being in limbo waiting for information sucks, and I realize that my limbo doesn't compare to what others are experiencing. That said,

Can Van's provide an ETA for when the kit status page will be updated with realistic guidance?

I've got one subkit that was marked "Crating Complete" several weeks ago (RV-14A Wings), another that's 2 weeks past the crating window ('14A Fuse), and another within the crating window, but no request, yet, for final payment ('14A Emp). I fear that none of them will be going out the door anytime soon. However, I'm anxious to get something in hand to start prepping parts, even if I need to wait before I can complete anything substantial.

Fingers crossed that this situation turns out to be Less Bad than this thread makes it appear.

Update: request for Emp subkit final payment received 30 minutes after posting!

 

[georgemohr]

"Fingers crossed that this situation turns out to be Less Bad than this thread makes it appear."

It almost has to be. Lots of worst case thinking understandably going on here.

 

[RV8JD]

After talking with my insurance broker, he is unsure if my airplane will be insurable once completed unless all of the laser-cut parts are replaced.

Please tell us more about your conversation with your insurance broker.

 

[CizzoPilot]

The good news is that your parts were looked over by someone who had built many RV's. I assume you were at Synergy South? Allen carefully inspects the work. We also did our build there in November.

I did, Allen and his team were great. But based on some of the inspections on here under magnification, I know some of our parts could have been missed since we didn't go to that level of detail before closing. I already reached out to them to see what their way forward was and they are also trying to get some clarification from Vans.

Do you know if any of your parts were from the possible laser cut batches?

 

[TX_Flyer]

Well you can add me to the list of people seeing cracks. I went and inspected my newly completed (RV-7A) HS based on letter from Van's and there are cracks around about 10 or so rivets on the rear spar, they are small and you really have to look for them, but they are there.

Edited to add that I am not complaining, just trying to add another data point.

 

[ronshort2000]

Can Van's provide an ETA for when the kit status page will be updated with realistic guidance?

Update: request for Emp subkit final payment received 30 minutes after posting!

Interesting that you received an e-mail for Emp payment as I received one today as well. I am kind of disappointed that Vans has 27 items in the tail kit that have laser cut holes, with 2 "replace" and 4 "Undersized holes", and another 40 that were laser cut in limited runs, but are asking for final payment. Are they indicating that they have punched parts on the shelf and ready to send them out to new builders? Are they saying that new builders will be receiving good parts while people who already have kits will have to wait? If that is not the case, as it should not be, then are we expected to make a final payment on a kit that may not ship for another, I don't know, maybe 6 months?

I currently have paid in full wings sitting in "assigned to crating" with the crating date of 5/22 - 6/12 and no update. My Emp kit says "Parts being produced" with a crating date of 7/12 - 8/2, already a week late. I know Vans is working hard but maybe that can be updated, even to TBD so we know that someone is at least looking at it.

I have not received any kits and have accepted that I will not be seeing my kits for quite some time but it seems especially inconsiderate to be asking for final payment on kits that we know are not going to ship anytime soon. I will be calling Vans tomorrow to find out why the e-mail was sent out and to get the full story.

-Ron

 

[bruceh]

I've seen that for brake pad rivets... not normal aluminum sheet rivets.

Ah! that might be what I was remembering.

I'm not trying to down play the cracking. Alclad 2024-T3 is heat tempered, and I'm sure the laser cutting is blasting away that material at some temperature approaching the surface of the sun.
It has to have some effect on the material and cracking around the dimpling is what we are getting.

 

[bertschb]

Interesting that you received an e-mail for Emp payment as I received one today as well.

I did as well. Order placed March 9th, 2023. Fingers crossed it won't have any laser cut parts and nothing is backordered.

 

[jjmanton]

Greg,

Is it possible to correlate specific parts with specific outsourced vendors? I’ve noticed some parts are quite clean, while others have extremely rough cuts. The only things I could think here are differences in programming or possibly different companies that you outsourced the work to.

It might be worth anonymizing the names, but put which vendor produced each part. Im making an assumption here that only a single vendor produced a specific part. Possibly even having different stress tests for each. This might end up reducing the impact and blast radius of this situation significantly.

 

[docjjrmd]

RV-12 laser parts

"Fingers crossed that this situation turns out to be Less Bad than this thread makes it appear."

It almost has to be. Lots of worst case thinking understandably going on here.

In the FWIW category, I previously mentioned I had Wing, Fuse, and Finish kits show up all together on June 30. I have finished inventory and found 1 laser cut part in the Fuselage kit and 1 in the Finish kit. Both look ok, both are non-structural and frankly I am not concerned about either one, no dimples needed. The wing kit had forward/nose ribs that were laser cut and are awful. Clearly there are "good" and "bad" laser cut parts out there. What surprised me though was everything else appears to be punched, stainless, or factory produced anodized or powder coated. Given the number and variety of punched parts, most with a 2023 date code, I am optimistic Van's ability to produce CNC punched parts may be better than realized for those of us that have stood in line for months to get kits. To their credit and my benefit, Van's held 2 of my kits till the 3rd was done crating to ship all 3 at once. The first sat on their dock for 6 weeks after being posted crating complete. I did inquire as to its status. Up shot off all this is my being patient allowed Van's to save me nearly $2k dollars in shipping, not a small amount. Yes there will be a delay and backlog of parts being produced, can't be helped at this point. If I could bottle the tincture of time with a side of patience I'd be rich. :>)

JJR

 

[dmattmul]

12 not an issue (I think, hope)

In the FWIW category, I previously mentioned I had Wing, Fuse, and Finish kits show up all together on June 30. I have finished inventory and found 1 laser cut part in the Fuselage kit and 1 in the Finish kit. Both look ok, both are non-structural and frankly I am not concerned about either one, no dimples needed. The wing kit had forward/nose ribs that were laser cut and are awful. Clearly there are "good" and "bad" laser cut parts out there. What surprised me though was everything else appears to be punched, stainless, or factory produced anodized or powder coated. Given the number and variety of punched parts, most with a 2023 date code, I am optimistic Van's ability to produce CNC punched parts may be better than realized for those of us that have stood in line for months to get kits. To their credit and my benefit, Van's held 2 of my kits till the 3rd was done crating to ship all 3 at once. The first sat on their dock for 6 weeks after being posted crating complete. I did inquire as to its status. Up shot off all this is my being patient allowed Van's to save me nearly $2k dollars in shipping, not a small amount. Yes there will be a delay and backlog of parts being produced, can't be helped at this point. If I could bottle the tincture of time with a side of patience I'd be rich. :>)

JJR

I don't think the 12 is an issue and not referenced in the "Information Regarding Reports of Hole Cracking in Laser-Cut Parts for Van's RV Kits" or did I miss something?

Build on.......

 

[cessna1tengobravo]

I did as well. Order placed March 9th, 2023. Fingers crossed it won't have any laser cut parts and nothing is backordered.

Interesting. I also received a request for final payment this afternoon for the RV14A emp kit which I wasn't expecting to get for a long time due to the current situation. I have a query into Van's regarding if it has laser cut parts in it. I'm hopeful that it does not. If it does, I'm not really interested in doing a build with those parts and will patiently wait for the good parts to begin the build.

 

[GrahamF]

Well you can add me to the list of people seeing cracks. I went and inspected my newly completed (RV-7A) HS based on letter from Van's and there are cracks around about 10 or so rivets on the rear spar, they are small and you really have to look for them, but they are there.

Edited to add that I am not complaining, just trying to add another data point.

Can you please let us know which rivets? The AD3s attaching the spar to the skins, or the AD4s attaching the spar to the reinforcement bars?

 

[georgemohr]

We received our RV-14A rudder spar without any blue vinyl, suggesting it was laser cut (found it in an old photo!). So we decided to drill out some rivets to see how the dimples looked (easy to do on the rudder, fortunately). Short story is they look good, and show none of the classic 'bad laser cut' symptoms like a notch or a dark spot. Not sure what to make of that TBH, but it convinced us that our rudder is good.

So either:

1) The non-blue'd spar was not laser cut, or
2) It was laser cut but of high enough quality to not exhibit any symptoms, or
3) The sample of rivets we chose were super lucky and not cracked but others were (least plausible)

Sorry I couldn't grab a photo, I have no macro enabled camera these days.

 

[TX_Flyer]

Can you please let us know which rivets? The AD3s attaching the spar to the skins, or the AD4s attaching the spar to the reinforcement bars?

They were all on the AD3 skin to spar rivets. I found no cracks on the reinforcement plates behind the outboard hinges. I bought an endoscope so I can peek inside the HS and inspect for any cracks on the back side of the 603PP/609PP sandwich.

 

[GrahamF]

They were all on the AD3 skin to spar rivets. I found no cracks on the reinforcement plates behind the outboard hinges. I bought an endoscope so I can peek inside the HS and inspect for any cracks on the back side of the 603PP/609PP sandwich.

I take it you scraped away the primer to verify the crack was in the metal?

I've just had a look at mine, and some rivets in that location seem to have 'cracks' radiating out from them about halfway to the edge of the dimple, but when you scrape the primer away with a fingernail it's clear that the 'crack' is only in the paint (which will obviously yield somehow when a rivet is squashed into it) and the metal is fine.

 

[TX_Flyer]

I take it you scraped away the primer to verify the crack was in the metal?

I've just had a look at mine, and some rivets in that location seem to have 'cracks' radiating out from them about halfway to the edge of the dimple, but when you scrape the primer away with a fingernail it's clear that the 'crack' is only in the paint (which will obviously yield somehow when a rivet is squashed into it) and the metal is fine.

Yes I scraped the paint away to verify the crack is in the base metal. I wish it wasn’t as I will be drilling a lot of rivets to replace the spar.

 

[docjjrmd]

-12 Laser cut parts

I don't think the 12 is an issue and not referenced in the "Information Regarding Reports of Hole Cracking in Laser-Cut Parts for Van's RV Kits" or did I miss something?

Build on.......

Yes you are correct the 12 is not an issue at this stage for structural concerns due to pulled rivets and the paucity of dimpling use in construction. Further I understand a -12 stabilator was the structure fatigue tested initially. Thus I am not particularly concerned about the assemblies I have completed, VS, Rudder, HS, AST, tailcone. I simply was pointing out that even in the -12 there may be sub-standard laser cut parts as well as laser cut parts that are not problematic. Also pointing out the lack of laser cut parts in recent kits, hopefully good news to those waiting on kits. - JJR

 

[maxmirot]

Vans needs to develops a valid method to determine which spars are laser cut without full disassembly.

The list of parts shipped dates is fine for kits not assembled.
They can be examined directly.

I hate to disassemble the tail pieces/wing only to find out they are all good.

Surprised we don't some more guidance pre-OSH

 

[ryan24]

For those that have ID’d “bad” laser cut parts in your inventory, have you seen similar evidence of poor hole or cut quality on other features of the part besides the rivet holes (passthroughs, tooling holes, lightening holes)? For those with QB kits, this might be helpful to ID parts that are riveted into place by looking at other features on the part that are more readily inspectable if so.

Ryan

RV-8 In-Progress

 

[TX_Flyer]

For those that have ID’d “bad” laser cut parts in your inventory, have you seen similar evidence of poor hole or cut quality on other features of the part besides the rivet holes (passthroughs, tooling holes, lightening holes)? For those with QB kits, this might be helpful to ID parts that are riveted into place by looking at other features on the part that are more readily inspectable if so.

Ryan

RV-8 In-Progress

I can only comment on my empennage, but the trim cable holes in the spar look pretty clean, I can't really see anything on those.

On my rudder parts I have identified you can see the burn through mark on the edge of tooling holes, also you can see the burn marks and on some holes a spray pattern of slag from the cutting.

 

[ryan24]

That’s helpful - thanks Andrew! Planning to do some additional inspection of my QB fuse this evening while we await further guidance from Vans….

Ryan

RV-8 In-Progress

 

[kirkbauer]

Thoughts from a new builder

I started my first ever airplane build (RV-10) in November. I have completed the rudder, elevators, VS, and HS. I was just prepping the ribs for the tailcone when I received the email from Van's. Sure enough, all of the parts for the tailcone that could be lasercut are indeed lasercut. At this point, I have stopped building because I don't want to invest any more time until we know what's happening.

My priority, personally, would be for them to release the procedure for replacing specific parts. I would love to get my tailcone parts replaced so that I could continue building so I don't lose too much momentum. My fuselage kit was supposed to be here Dec-Jan (which I can only assume will be delayed) but I'm not going to make final payment until I know how this situation is resolved.

Now, my bigger concern is not really urgent, but a huge concern. What about all of my finished components? I suspect that there are at least some lasercut parts in there, given my delivery date and the fact that all of my tailcone parts are lasercut. What I'm waiting on, as many of you are as well, is an inspection procedure. How do I find out if my parts are lasercut on my completed components. Probably more importantly, how do I figure out if they are BAD lasercut parts that need to be replaced? Looking at just the rivets I can take picture of with my cellphone, I'm not seeing any cracks in the spar flanges.

So I'd love some guidelines -- like "buy a boroscope with a specific macro ability, and then examine these specific pieces, looking for these certain issues". My parts are primed, so hopefully I can visually tell if there are underlying cracks.

Let's assume the worst case for me -- I need to replace all spars in my R, E, VS, and HS. Depending on how Van's handles that, I may or may not continue with this project. I'm not sure that I can be motivated to start completely over with the entire project, nor am I sure how much that will cost me.

I think some things Van's could do that I would consider reasonable are:

• For built components, replace all of the parts for that component, not jus the lasercut parts.
• For built components, provide instructions on how to salvage specific parts from the build parts, then provide replacements for the lasercut parts and other non-salvageable parts.

I won't be happy if I have to start over from scratch, but I'd be even less happy if I first had to spend a bunch of time drilling out a few thousand rivets, trying not to damage anything. Because I will certainly damage things. I'm already going to be spending the labor, and more primer, etc, so I'd appreciate not having to purchase my own replacement parts.

For example, the skins. I have a few blemishes on the skins already since I'm a newbie. I know that if I have to drill out every rivet on every skin, I will cause some more damage here and there, and will most likely need to use quite a few oops rivets when I re-assemble. Finally, I'm sure I'll cause at least a few more blemishes on a full second round of riveting. In other words, the salvaged skins would suffer the scars of three rounds of work. That's too much for me. Van's should send new skins for free for each component already assembled, at the very least.

 

[jack202020]

Good afternoon,

I'd like to preface my post by saying I am in no way a materials scientist, and these opinions are mine. I don't know what 'normal' dimples should look like under a microscope, or what size of imperfections would be considered acceptable. We should wait for the reputable lab, and Vans to draw conclusions.

However, the curiosity got the best of me. I took some parts to work and used our microscope to take some pictures of parts I was about to install. I noticed that nearly every hole that was dimpled on my F-1009, manufactured on 10/12/22, formed cracks. Some are worse than others. They all seemed to originate around the discoloration on the surface.

Image of an untouched hole from F-1009;

Image of a dimpled hole from F-1009;

Image of the same dimpled hole, 45 degrees;

View of the same dimple from the reverse side;

3D render of the same dimple from the reverse side;

 

[bmellis11]

However, the curiosity got the best of me. I took some parts to work and used our microscope to take some pictures of parts I was about to install. I noticed that nearly every hole that was dimpled on my F-1009, manufactured on 10/12/22, formed cracks. Some are worse than others. They all seemed to originate around the discoloration on the surface.

Thanks for taking to time to post these. That's an impressive microscope you have there. Do you happen to have any photos of holes that had to be final drilled before dimpling? I'm very curious to see how those look under the microscope.

 

[Freemasm]

I'm not affected but as an anal AF engineer, I've been trying to follow this. I've had extensive ME experience from R&D->application->testing-> field work -> whatever. I've probably had to defend a couple of hundred issues in front of a Material Review Board. The fear of being asked something that you hadn't anticipated will make you be pretty thorough and increase your skepticism when sitting on the other side of reviews.

While the OEM has talked and demonstrated some transparency to date, that will will have to be greatly extended as this process plays out.

The proposed testing that Vans mentions; in-house and 3rd party, will require a tremendous transparency IMO to truly gain the confidence of affected builders/fliers/underwriters/etc.

What assumptions and boundary conditions are applied?

- Every hole (assumed in calcs or present in test articles) discrepant or just a percentage?
- #cracks per hole?
- How do the related cracks align with the stresses in the parent metal?
- Are the test articles dimpled properly versus some field/builder over-formed ones?
- Properly formed rivets in every location?
- etc. etc.

It is the application/unknowns associated with the aforementioned that leaves me feeling the worst about the pain level this is going to bring for everybody. If the desired result is an aircraft without long terms questions, I'm not optimistic.

I really want to be proven wrong here.

 

[Bullpup]

Match drilling after dimple?

Indulging a bit of worst case planning where I would have to replace the wing and leading edge ribs which already have the top and LE skins riveted.

How would you go about match & final drilling ribs under a dimpled skin (RV-8 undersized holes)? I haven't found any evidence of cracking, but also not using a 300x microscope..

 

[rkraski]

I'm not affected but as an anal AF engineer, I've been trying to follow this.

As a manufacturing engineer with 20 years experience in the titanium industry I’ve been following this thread closely. I mentioned in a previous post that I’ve been on the fence about ordering a kit. How this quality issue plays out over time will determine whether or not I place an order. Van’s seems like a great company with an enthusiastic customer base. I would love to see them navigate this storm and come out the other end a stronger company because of it.

I highly recommend reading “Out of the Crisis”, by W. Edwards Deming. Deming’s philosophy was the foundation for what would become the Toyota Production System. It should be required reading for Van’s leadership.

My intention here is not to preach but to offer advice. Every manufacturer has made an expensive mistake at some point in time, myself included.

 

[DonMcKee]

I haven't found any evidence of cracking, but also not using a 300x microscope..

As a newbie who has yet to build his first airplane part, I have a question about the above statement: in the Real World of airplane construction, if it takes a 300x microscope to see it (crack, scratch, notch, etc.), does it really exist?

Related to that, what would be the minimum magnification that would allow you to say, "If it looks good, it is good"?

 

[maxmirot]

I'm not affected but as an anal AF engineer, I've been trying to follow this. I've had extensive ME experience from R&D->application->testing-> field work -> whatever. I've probably had to defend a couple of hundred issues in front of a Material Review Board. The fear of being asked something that you hadn't anticipated will make you be pretty thorough and increase your skepticism when sitting on the other side of reviews.

While the OEM has talked and demonstrated some transparency to date, that will will have to be greatly extended as this process plays out.

The proposed testing that Vans mentions; in-house and 3rd party, will require a tremendous transparency IMO to truly gain the confidence of affected builders/fliers/underwriters/etc.

What assumptions and boundary conditions are applied?

- Every hole (assumed in calcs or present in test articles) discrepant or just a percentage?
- #cracks per hole?
- How do the related cracks align with the stresses in the parent metal?
- Are the test articles dimpled properly versus some field/builder over-formed ones?
- Properly formed rivets in every location?
- etc. etc.

It is the application/unknowns associated with the aforementioned that leaves me feeling the worst about the pain level this is going to bring for everybody. If the desired result is an aircraft without long terms questions, I'm not optimistic.

I really want to be proven wrong here.

Btw, What's an AF engineer?

I don't own one of theses kits.

I do own a flying RV-7A that was built by someone else.

I agree with most of what you have to say.

Right now I would not buy a plane, kit or unfinished project from these dates unless all the load bearing laser parts were replaced. This would be all flagged red parts.

Yellow flagged parts etc , might be fine if is further testing ok.

A big problem right now is how one determines they have a punched spar or laser spar in a finished tail or wing.

I would want this well documented by the owner/ builder

 

[TX_Flyer]

Btw, What's an AF engineer?

I don't own one of theses kits.

I do own a flying RV-7A that was built by someone else.

I agree with most of what you have to say.

Right now I would not buy a plane, kit or unfinished project from these dates unless all the load bearing laser parts were replaced. This would be all flagged red parts.

Yellow flagged parts etc , might be fine if is further testing ok.

A big problem right now is how one determines they have a punched spar or laser spar in a finished tail or wing.

I would want this well documented by the owner/ builder

For me I have enough pics of the build process I can confirm some of my critical parts are punched (came with blue vinyl), and I can confirm others are laser cut in untouched parts, but how do I confirm the interior ribs on the HS? Thankfully I was just about to close up the VS, but again pics, and inspection prior to closing leave me 100% positive with that component.

 

[Mel]

Had no cracked holes in my 1989 kit! As a matter of fact, I had no holes at all in my 1989 kit!

(Well, maybe a few tooling holes.)

 

[N8DAV8R]

Had no cracked holes in my 1989 kit! As a matter of fact, I had no holes at all in my 1989 kit!

(Well, maybe a few tooling holes.)

Great! Now tell everyone what you paid for it.

 

[AeroEngineer]

...as an anal AF engineer...

What's an AF engineer?

In this case, "AF" seems to be an adverb modifying "anal", not "engineer"

 

[swift12]

Btw, What's an AF engineer?

I don't own one of theses kits.

I do own a flying RV-7A that was built by someone else.

I agree with most of what you have to say.

Right now I would not buy a plane, kit or unfinished project from these dates unless all the load bearing laser parts were replaced. This would be all flagged red parts.

Yellow flagged parts etc , might be fine if is further testing ok.

A big problem right now is how one determines they have a punched spar or laser spar in a finished tail or wing.

I would want this well documented by the owner/ builder

Well documented. This is a good idea and one I have already started. Hundreds of Pictures of vinyl parts. Dates of crating/shipping…Pictures of punched holes, laser holes, inventory, vans list of affected parts against my inventory, emails documenting replacement of every laser cut (holes specifically as there are a few laser cut parts in all kits unaffected as there always has been for years without holes) and finally when I get the replacement ribs (all I’m affected by) the import documentation and receipts with pictures of replacement parts. **** I’ll even keep the bad parts…..this all because one day I’ll have to sell my RV7 like we all will and we just need to protect our rather large investments. And I don’t want insurance issues.

 

[Tlrguy]

For those that have ID’d “bad” laser cut parts in your inventory, have you seen similar evidence of poor hole or cut quality on other features of the part besides the rivet holes (passthroughs, tooling holes, lightening holes)? For those with QB kits, this might be helpful to ID parts that are riveted into place by looking at other features on the part that are more readily inspectable if so.

Ryan

RV-8 In-Progress

Laser cut parts have the tooling holes laser cut too. The tooling holes being bigger around, are harder to see inconsistencies but they exist clear as day once you know what to look for.

Between tooling holes and rivet holes, I was able to ID every spar as punched or laser cut. The flaps and ailerons are a challenge but the clues exist. Look at my past posts and pictures for the telltale sign.

 

[Tlrguy]

Someone else’s laser cut hole

Figured I’d dig through my scraps to find some unused laser cut parts from a particular third party ER tank supplier.

Night and day difference in cut quality. My ER laser cut parts are CLEAN. Obviously this can be done properly, you just need to know what you’re doing.

 

[Everwild]

Figured I’d dig through my scraps to find some unused laser cut parts from a particular third party ER tank supplier.

Night and day difference in parts. My ER laser cut parts are CLEAN. Obviously this can be done properly, you just need to know what you’re doing.

Which is why I hope not all of Van's laser cut parts are scrap. I've finished -10 wing tanks, wing substructures and the leading edges. I have no visible cracks in any of the finished assemblies.

However, I ordered some replacement wing ribs after damaging my wing and the replacement ribs cracked when dimpled. I'm hoping it's a batching issue that can be identified as "you have a good batch" or "you unfortunately received a bad batch".

 

[spatsch]

Good afternoon,

However, the curiosity got the best of me. I took some parts to work and used our microscope to take some pictures of parts I was about to install. I noticed that nearly every hole that was dimpled on my F-1009, manufactured on 10/12/22, formed cracks. Some are worse than others. They all seemed to originate around the discoloration on the surface.
[/IMG]

Thanks for posting this! Do you have some pictures of traditional hole punched once too?

Oliver

 

[gasman]

Originally Posted by jack202020 View Post
Good afternoon,
However, the curiosity got the best of me. I took some parts to work and used our microscope....

Yes, if you would take a piece of scrap and drill, deburr and dimple the same size hole in the same thickness material and foto it in the same manner, it would give a good reference.