Are you sure it laser cut. Look too clean
Van's Air Force
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Factory Info: Parts with Laser Cut Holes and Potential for Cracks
- Thread starter greghughespdx
- Start date
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Are you sure it laser cut. Look too clean
Marc Bourget
Well Known Member
Search on laser cutting aluminum and you'll find out it's more "nex-gen" laser equipment
Thats definitely laser cut...punched is much cleaner...note the hole is not nice and round like a punched hole...however its interesting to note it is a clean cut laser hole and could likely be cleaned up with a reamer just fine......maybe not all last parts will be duds.
I am currently cross referencing my RV14 wing kit with Van's list of laser cut parts. I have come across 2 parts that have almost the identical part number. I'm not sure if they are the same part and just an updated number or they are different parts. The parts in question are the leading edge ribs.
They list W-1009-L-3 and W-1009-R-3 and then they list W-1009 L / R. I only have the latter, W-1009 L/R and they have been laser cut. I can find no mention of the W-1009-L-3 in the plans either. Probably a simple explanation, however, can't figure it out.
Thanks in advance.
They list W-1009-L-3 and W-1009-R-3 and then they list W-1009 L / R. I only have the latter, W-1009 L/R and they have been laser cut. I can find no mention of the W-1009-L-3 in the plans either. Probably a simple explanation, however, can't figure it out.
Thanks in advance.
Definitely. Under scope, the telltale vertical scarring around the face of the hole is evident just as with the Vans parts. No slag or notches whatsoever. The hole isn’t perfectly round, but pretty darn close.
lappadoodle42
Member
Version 3: https://www.vansaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Laser-Cut-Part-List-Rev-3.pdf
Happened to check the link from the 7/15 update and saw it was a new sheet revision, dated today.
No other updates, guidance, etc…
Happened to check the link from the 7/15 update and saw it was a new sheet revision, dated today.
No other updates, guidance, etc…
Laser part list error, through rev3?
Am I blind? On the laser part list for the 14 is E-920, but the trim spar on the 14 is E-01405, which is on the list too. I can’t find E-920 anywhere on the section parts lists, emailed support on Sunday, but no response. So wondering if I’m just missing where this is, or it’s a mistake?
Am I blind? On the laser part list for the 14 is E-920, but the trim spar on the 14 is E-01405, which is on the list too. I can’t find E-920 anywhere on the section parts lists, emailed support on Sunday, but no response. So wondering if I’m just missing where this is, or it’s a mistake?
Attached are pics of how I found the rivet, and was hopeful it was just the primer, and another with the primer removed showing the crack.
Not to start a flame war but maybe this is justification for not priming...
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Not to start a flame war but maybe this is justification for not priming...
So now we've come full circle - "If you prime your airplane it will fall apart!"
another example photos of an installed piece crack
Another example of what the crack could look like. This is off my 14A elevator E-00906-1. Every rivet looks like this or very similar, notch in the same spot, etc. This is one I found after starting a double check against the list and one I had not caught previously.
View attachment 45561
Just for others to note, my current confirmed cracking are on the following installed pieces, so it's not just one in some cases, need to check your builds.
E-00906-1
E-01402
F-01411B
F-01412A
F-01486A-L
F-01486A-R
F-01486B-L
F-01486B-R
F-01486C-L
F-01486C-R
R-00902-1
Another example of what the crack could look like. This is off my 14A elevator E-00906-1. Every rivet looks like this or very similar, notch in the same spot, etc. This is one I found after starting a double check against the list and one I had not caught previously.
View attachment 45561
Just for others to note, my current confirmed cracking are on the following installed pieces, so it's not just one in some cases, need to check your builds.
E-00906-1
E-01402
F-01411B
F-01412A
F-01486A-L
F-01486A-R
F-01486B-L
F-01486B-R
F-01486C-L
F-01486C-R
R-00902-1
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rph142
Well Known Member
I'm a former RV-3 builder so drilling out rivets doesnt really phase me. In terms of the four stages of builder grief I jump from disbelief to acceptance after a single beer. With that said, I've got a funny one for the group. I completed my first RV-7 emp kit before laser cut issues in December 2021, but also before SB 00036. So in Feb 2023 I decided to completely rebuild my HS with all new parts and the new SB parts. Its only a 5 day build and well worth the piece of mind. Fast forward to a few days ago and I received the dreaded email from vans. Based on my build logs and shipping dates I largely dodged a bullet, aside from my newly build HS. I decided to inspect the rear spar for cracks and this is what I found under 5x magnification. The cracks are largely hidden behind primer, but once removed they become quite visible. In my case, cracks didnt form during dimpling, only after riveting. Approximately 30% of my rivet holes are cracked and all in the same place - at the initial laser penetration point. Ill be rebuilding my HS yet again.
View attachment 45563
View attachment 45563
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typo in rev1-3 14 emp section
Van's response that it's a typo in the 14 emp section, should be another revision I assume with that changed at some point. Hopefully this helps someone else out as well!
Van's response that it's a typo in the 14 emp section, should be another revision I assume with that changed at some point. Hopefully this helps someone else out as well!
Same - even in v3 there are still typos in the RV-8 list as well. RV-9 parts, etc.
MS19087
Well Known Member
A real pity
Reasonable request Lucky. Vans reputation is at stake here and the solution will be painful for all parties. I hope Vans can get past this and survive financially - it’s in everyones interest that they survive. So sorry that the pressure to deliver has left builders in a position that is worse than had they endured the earlier very long lead times. After all Rv-15 is next for me.
Reasonable request Lucky. Vans reputation is at stake here and the solution will be painful for all parties. I hope Vans can get past this and survive financially - it’s in everyones interest that they survive. So sorry that the pressure to deliver has left builders in a position that is worse than had they endured the earlier very long lead times. After all Rv-15 is next for me.
jack202020
I'm New Here
Since you insist, I guess I'll play with the microscope at work again...
I intended to test parts with and without deburring, but that proved difficult to do, because I was struggling to keep track of which pictures of what parts I'd taken. The microscope isn't the most user friendly tool I've ever used. You'll notice some intended comparisons are mismatched in zoom, some I left, some I zoomed digitally as best as I could.
I would like to preface that, once again, I am not qualified in any way to give advice to any of you regarding aircraft construction, or materials science. I am just a guy who happens to have access to a very nice microscope, and am affected by this laser issue. An idiot with access to a powerful tool is still an idiot, don't be fooled. Any interpretations I post below are my opinion, and should be assumed as wrong. Please wait for Van's official guidance.
I think these images show that the problem isn't necessarily the laser cut parts. It seems the laser wasn't properly "leading" the cuts. To my understanding, for holes made to a final diameter you would start in the center and spiral (or go in a straight line) out. This would mean that the initial laser 'pierce' is not on the outside diameter.
Match drilling doesn't appear to make a big enough difference to remove that 'notched' area.
Drilling the holes out for a 1/8" rivet does appear to eliminate the rough surface. However, that comes with an entirely different set of problems and engineering validation necessary. I did this test because I am worried that I will make a "few" mistakes drilling out several hundred 3/32 rivets.
We have posted an update and will present information about the testing process and results so far on Tuesday in Oshkosh at the forum session "What's Happening at Van's Aircraft."
You can read the update on our website, and I have also copied/pasted the text below. In addition, I will ask our team to review the parts list for the typos/errors being discussed here. Feel free to email or PM me with any issues you see on the list.
Since I know people will ask: We will also work to publish some information for people who are not at OSH. Once we have that ready, we'll make sure it is posted here. Please understand that when we're at the show with lots of people around, it's usually challenging to do that sort of thing in a timely manner and we have a lot of things happening all at the same time, so it might take a bit.
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You can read the update on our website, and I have also copied/pasted the text below. In addition, I will ask our team to review the parts list for the typos/errors being discussed here. Feel free to email or PM me with any issues you see on the list.
Since I know people will ask: We will also work to publish some information for people who are not at OSH. Once we have that ready, we'll make sure it is posted here. Please understand that when we're at the show with lots of people around, it's usually challenging to do that sort of thing in a timely manner and we have a lot of things happening all at the same time, so it might take a bit.
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Updated: Friday, July 21, 2023
We have updated the list of parts that were manufactured using the laser-cutting process to Revision 3. This update adds the A-710 stiffener to those wing kit lists where the part number is applicable but was missing.
Testing conducted thus far has been focused on the highest-priority, worst-case test sample scenarios, which are defined in terms of cracks in dimpled holes, their location and orientation, material thickness and grain direction, and alloy/type. These worst-case configurations and combinations were collectively defined by our third-party testing partner and the team at Van’s.
As of Friday, we have nearly completed testing of the highest-priority set of samples, which includes the worst-case specimens. The team is working on the next, expanded set of samples.
Our team plans to discuss information about the tests that have been conducted to date, and to provide an early report on what we know thus far during the "What’s Happening at Van’s Aircraft" forum, Tuesday morning at 8:30 a.m. Central Time at AirVenture Forum Stage 7, along with several other topics and updates. We will share initial testing information as transparently and openly as we can, in the context of a test program that has yielded meaningful results but has not yet been completed. The testing teams back home will continue to execute tests during the week of AirVenture and afterward, until the program has been completed.
Again, we appreciate your patience, understanding, and support as we continue our work.
We have updated the list of parts that were manufactured using the laser-cutting process to Revision 3. This update adds the A-710 stiffener to those wing kit lists where the part number is applicable but was missing.
Testing conducted thus far has been focused on the highest-priority, worst-case test sample scenarios, which are defined in terms of cracks in dimpled holes, their location and orientation, material thickness and grain direction, and alloy/type. These worst-case configurations and combinations were collectively defined by our third-party testing partner and the team at Van’s.
As of Friday, we have nearly completed testing of the highest-priority set of samples, which includes the worst-case specimens. The team is working on the next, expanded set of samples.
Our team plans to discuss information about the tests that have been conducted to date, and to provide an early report on what we know thus far during the "What’s Happening at Van’s Aircraft" forum, Tuesday morning at 8:30 a.m. Central Time at AirVenture Forum Stage 7, along with several other topics and updates. We will share initial testing information as transparently and openly as we can, in the context of a test program that has yielded meaningful results but has not yet been completed. The testing teams back home will continue to execute tests during the week of AirVenture and afterward, until the program has been completed.
Again, we appreciate your patience, understanding, and support as we continue our work.
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Since you insist, I guess I'll play with the microscope at work again...
.
Thx! Very educational for me!
Oliver
Or at least recorded on someone's phone for us.
Plummit
Well Known Member
Good Luck!
All I can say is good luck working with Vans. Having been personally involved in the QB fuel tanks fiasco, and Vans attitude to deny responsibility, I really feel for you builders that have to deal with this issue. I don't see how they can sweep this issue under the mat.
-Marc
All I can say is good luck working with Vans. Having been personally involved in the QB fuel tanks fiasco, and Vans attitude to deny responsibility, I really feel for you builders that have to deal with this issue. I don't see how they can sweep this issue under the mat.
-Marc
Mark33
Well Known Member
What kind of problems did you have to deal with regarding the Q.B. tanks when trying to work things out with the factory? Like many others, I’m right in the middle of this fiasco and just waiting on Vans to advise me on how to proceed from here. I have the entire Q.B. kit, which also includes the tanks. The only little bit of good news is that I haven’t started assembling anything yet and everything is just in the Q.B. stage as delivered from Vans, so I don’t have any labor invested in it yet. I’m also planning on building the extended range Sky Designs tanks, so hopefully Vans will just give me some kind of credit on the Q.B. tanks, rather than replacing them.
bkc3921
Well Known Member
I see no evidence that Van's is trying in any way to sweep this "under the mat". This thread has over 50K views, and Post #1 was from Van's COO.
At the risk of waxing philosophical, I'm hoping that Van's is somewhat trying these steps (which I stole from an article):
1) Define the problem
2) Determine goals/objectives
3) Generate an array of alternative solutions
4) Evaluate the possible consequences of each solution
5) Use this analysis to choose one or more courses of action
6) Plan the implementation
7) Implement with full commitment
8) Adapt as needed based on incoming data
I'm hoping that everyone affected will give them the time to do this, and get the "solution" right". Although I am not affected directly with this issue (I have a 7A and a 12iS), we are ALL in the same boat. The value and support for all of our aircraft is dependent on the success and reputation of Van's as a company.
As the famous Gene Kranz said during Apollo 13...."Let's work the problem, people..Let's not make things worse by guessing"...
Best wishes to Van's and to us all.
Plummit
Well Known Member
They attributed the leaks to walking on the wing, and instructed me to put pro-seal on the leaking rivets. When I finally pulled the tanks for repair we found poor construction inside the tanks with many questionable spots. Also found a paper sticker on one aluminum rib inside the tank.
I originally thought that having the important stuff like the spar and the tanks build by "pros" was a positive bonus, now not so much.
Don't misunderstand that I really like the RV line. I can't think of a better aluminum experimental kit-built plane out there. I just felt that the company was too quick to deny responsibility for their part of the construction.
-Marc
Mark33
Well Known Member
Roger that. I’m sorry to hear you didn’t get better support from Vans.
Like you, I’m relying heavily on the “experts” that built the Q.B. portion of my -14 kit to have built it with professional and expert care, which should also included carful inspection of all parts that were used in its construction and hopefully replace any suspect defective parts at the time. After all, the “expert eye” is a big part of what we’re paying this premium for with regards to a Q.B. kit and not just the labor to actually do the work.
I’m really hoping that clearing up this current laser issue goes relatively smooth.
What about the Finish and FWF kits?
I'm building a -10. My airframe kits were picked up on 4/8/2020, 8/26/2020 and 6/8/2021 so my basic airframe is good-to-go. My Finish kit (after 16 months of waiting!) and FWF kits were picked up on 9/23/2022 so that is in the period of interest. I've seen nothing about any concerns for parts in either of these kits.
But I did get the email from Van's saying I might have problems with laser cut parts. So did Van's just send out the letter to everybody who got any kit during this time frame or will additional information come out for the Finish and FWF kits?
I also implemented SB-000036 on my RV-6A including adding the external spar doubler to both sides. I don't remember if the doubler had the blue plastic on it or not. Does anyone have any info on the spar doubler?
Doug Medema
RV-6A 21140 1st flight 11/8/2003
I'm building a -10. My airframe kits were picked up on 4/8/2020, 8/26/2020 and 6/8/2021 so my basic airframe is good-to-go. My Finish kit (after 16 months of waiting!) and FWF kits were picked up on 9/23/2022 so that is in the period of interest. I've seen nothing about any concerns for parts in either of these kits.
But I did get the email from Van's saying I might have problems with laser cut parts. So did Van's just send out the letter to everybody who got any kit during this time frame or will additional information come out for the Finish and FWF kits?
I also implemented SB-000036 on my RV-6A including adding the external spar doubler to both sides. I don't remember if the doubler had the blue plastic on it or not. Does anyone have any info on the spar doubler?
Doug Medema
RV-6A 21140 1st flight 11/8/2003
Quick test; undersized holes
I'm working on a SB RV-8, and have the left wing mostly assembled, with laser-cut main and nose ribs. I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary while assembling, and followed the "build on" conversations here earlier this spring. Now, with the ribs primed, dimpled, and riveted I don't see any evidence of cracking. I thought I was going to be lucky; my tank baffles are punched - I figured I'd wait for replacement aileron & flap parts, and probably get new ribs for the (unbuilt) right wing just for double assurance.
Today I prepped one of the right wing ribs. This was one of the better laser cut items; clean-looking holes with minimum scorch marks and barely perceptible evidence of the punch location. I reamed to #40, deburred, and dimpled with cleveland dies in a pneumatic squeezer.
While I don't have a magnifying camera to post pictures, nearly every hole has a hairline notch/crack at the laser punch location. It is visible clearly under a 3x loupe and can be felt if you run a dental pick around the circumference of the dimple. I'm sure I wouldn't have ever noticed (and likely didn't on the left wing) these cracks without specifically looking for them, under magnification.
Like many, I'd been holding out hope that the undersized holes would not require part replacement, but I don't see any way to avoid a complete rebuild at this point. I figure this is adding $1000s in replacement parts; how do you replace just the ribs on a prosealed tank? What shape will the LE skin be in after drilling out every hole? Combined with shipping this is going to be a slow and expensive process.
I'm working on a SB RV-8, and have the left wing mostly assembled, with laser-cut main and nose ribs. I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary while assembling, and followed the "build on" conversations here earlier this spring. Now, with the ribs primed, dimpled, and riveted I don't see any evidence of cracking. I thought I was going to be lucky; my tank baffles are punched - I figured I'd wait for replacement aileron & flap parts, and probably get new ribs for the (unbuilt) right wing just for double assurance.
Today I prepped one of the right wing ribs. This was one of the better laser cut items; clean-looking holes with minimum scorch marks and barely perceptible evidence of the punch location. I reamed to #40, deburred, and dimpled with cleveland dies in a pneumatic squeezer.
While I don't have a magnifying camera to post pictures, nearly every hole has a hairline notch/crack at the laser punch location. It is visible clearly under a 3x loupe and can be felt if you run a dental pick around the circumference of the dimple. I'm sure I wouldn't have ever noticed (and likely didn't on the left wing) these cracks without specifically looking for them, under magnification.
Like many, I'd been holding out hope that the undersized holes would not require part replacement, but I don't see any way to avoid a complete rebuild at this point. I figure this is adding $1000s in replacement parts; how do you replace just the ribs on a prosealed tank? What shape will the LE skin be in after drilling out every hole? Combined with shipping this is going to be a slow and expensive process.
dmattmul
Well Known Member
Posts being completely removed
It appears new threads are being completely removed by moderator(s). I get it an individual post can be removed but a complete thread where there were some legitimate issues raised that did not break any rules seems an issue. Hopefully Doug has some managerial oversight. There was a thread that referenced the word circumspect and how it pertained to Vans and “herd” mentality now gone. Pilots and engineers tend to plan for the worst and with missing input (silence, or lack of data) will fill in their own blanks, only natural. Hopefully we will see more transparency this week. There will be an occasional question or two at the Vans booth I’m sure. My bet is QB’s will not be effected as much as what most think. This is my speculation only. Little to no data to back it up, just a theory.
It appears new threads are being completely removed by moderator(s). I get it an individual post can be removed but a complete thread where there were some legitimate issues raised that did not break any rules seems an issue. Hopefully Doug has some managerial oversight. There was a thread that referenced the word circumspect and how it pertained to Vans and “herd” mentality now gone. Pilots and engineers tend to plan for the worst and with missing input (silence, or lack of data) will fill in their own blanks, only natural. Hopefully we will see more transparency this week. There will be an occasional question or two at the Vans booth I’m sure. My bet is QB’s will not be effected as much as what most think. This is my speculation only. Little to no data to back it up, just a theory.
[ed. Nothing more complicated than trying to keep the laser cutting information contained here in this one thread, this one spot. There is a link highlighted on the front page of VAF included in the daily rotation for the past week and a half pointing here. This thread, created by Greg, is where the factory is posting new information when they have it. Word seems to be getting out, as (again this thread - sorry to keep using that phrase) has been viewed just shy of 53,000 times in the last week. 33 pages and counting. I'm sure more information will be presented during the Van’s forum Tue at 0830 - about 36 hours from the time I'm typing this. Any new information will of course be copied here. Trying my best to keep the important info where it can be found by the largest number of builders the fastest. Not perfect but I'm trying the best I know how to help the factory help the builders most efficiently. v/r,dr]
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dmattmul
Well Known Member
Thanks,
So builders who want to understand if other Vans builders are having issues where there 100% paid for kits and promised to ship by Vans (some more than a month ago, if the post is accurate) are having issues getting any update from Vans needs to be posted in this thread or the thread will be deleted? This thread will get read a lot more.
[ed. Simply asking to please wait and see if there is new information here when the show opens in 11 hours. I promise if I get anything I’ll post it. dr]
So builders who want to understand if other Vans builders are having issues where there 100% paid for kits and promised to ship by Vans (some more than a month ago, if the post is accurate) are having issues getting any update from Vans needs to be posted in this thread or the thread will be deleted? This thread will get read a lot more.
[ed. Simply asking to please wait and see if there is new information here when the show opens in 11 hours. I promise if I get anything I’ll post it. dr]
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Agree! I'm sure Van's is tracking on this. It would seem to me, based on Jan 2022 update, there will be many QB kits that are not affected. I base this on the dates stated in the update video. 100-110 kits in a container plus, the ship to dates were prior to the start of laser cutting.
I cannot identify any laser cut parts in the QB kits I've received.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMTkDq2g-p0
Can you tell us which rib it was? Some are heat treated and other are not. Just curious to find out if it makes a difference.
blaplante
Well Known Member
In the future
Apologies if this has already been brought up, this thread is really long already.
It's pretty clear that if all parts were marked with some sort of INDELIBLE marking indicating WHO made it, WHEN it was made, and what REV of the design... we'd be in a better position to determine if there is a problem or not in any given airframe.
I've recently helped two RV-6 owners construct new HSTABs. And am now faced with... did we or didn't we have a laser cut forward spar? If the parts were indelibly marked we could take a borescope and look for the codes.
When a supplier gives you (Vans) a bad batch of product, how do you weed out the bad parts if they all get into the same bin? Toss everything?
For example, Lycoming cylinders have an AD, but fortunately the cylinders have various casting marks to identify them, and I can confirm my cylinders aren't affected.
It needs to be an indelible marking so that one assembled, and painted, we can still see that traceability info.
Good news... for one of the two, I have a picture showing blue plastic on the parts. But the 2nd one... right now I don't know.
Apologies if this has already been brought up, this thread is really long already.
It's pretty clear that if all parts were marked with some sort of INDELIBLE marking indicating WHO made it, WHEN it was made, and what REV of the design... we'd be in a better position to determine if there is a problem or not in any given airframe.
I've recently helped two RV-6 owners construct new HSTABs. And am now faced with... did we or didn't we have a laser cut forward spar? If the parts were indelibly marked we could take a borescope and look for the codes.
When a supplier gives you (Vans) a bad batch of product, how do you weed out the bad parts if they all get into the same bin? Toss everything?
For example, Lycoming cylinders have an AD, but fortunately the cylinders have various casting marks to identify them, and I can confirm my cylinders aren't affected.
It needs to be an indelible marking so that one assembled, and painted, we can still see that traceability info.
Good news... for one of the two, I have a picture showing blue plastic on the parts. But the 2nd one... right now I don't know.
It is a W-709R, one of the four internal leading edge ribs on the right wing. It is listed as T0 .025" heat treated on the list, but all of the wing ribs are heat treated.
Here's the best picture I could take using the 2x zoom on my iPhone - I got the light just right to show it clearly. Couple of points:
- they are nearly invisible to the naked eye - I actually thought this was good news until I looked really close
- basically every hole has the crack
- holes were reamed #40, deburred, and dimpled w a pneumatic squeezer and Cleveland dies
I was originally optimistic that undersized holes on heat treated parts would be good enough, but doesn't look like it. I'm about to get really good at drilling out rivets.
I am familiar with the Section 5 guidance on acceptable dimple cracks and filing them out, but without magnification and being cued to look I'm sure I would have missed these on the first wing. Also, I dimpled after priming.
Anyone have any thoughts on the severity of cracks like this one when covered in proseal? I assume the tank is the same.
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Very true, but this adds cost to the product. One reason "experimental" aviation is cheaper than "certified" is that we don't have to use products that have a detailed provenance.
This kind of QA problem has already been solved by others. (https://www.uthsc.edu/its/business-productivity-solutions/lean-uthsc/deming.php)
blaplante
Well Known Member
I suggest reading Quality Is Free by Philip B. Crosby
The cost of parts marking (I'm not talking certified detailed provenance docs) would have been a fraction of the total cost of this problem.
It appears that on final sized hole parts we may be able to drill out a rivet and borescope the hole to ID laser holes. On parts subsequently painted (primer) and match drilled... I don't know how to ID.
tenacious9
Member
True but then when something like this happens you will still have to pay. Either in reputation or money. I hope Van's (for all our sakes) picks the latter.
Brantel
Well Known Member
I plan to be at the Van’s forum Tuesday morning and will attempt to YouTube Live the event. As many of you know, cell coverage and WIFI is spotty at AirVenture. Hopefully it will work out…..
My channel is linked below. I am not monetized so no worries there!
https://www.youtube.com/live/gO1pKlyPqvk?feature=share
If it does not work, sorry in advance!
My channel is linked below. I am not monetized so no worries there!
https://www.youtube.com/live/gO1pKlyPqvk?feature=share
If it does not work, sorry in advance!
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What's Happening at Van's Forum
Here are my photos of the slides regarding laser cut parts at today's forum.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/WzDn5wQ5eu7qgfrq7
My initial impressions are that Van's is putting a lot of effort and very scientific approach to solving this. Way more than any individual builder could do. I'm convinced that it's best to wait for Van's to make some conclusions.
They did say that there is no need to ground aircraft that are already flying with some later cut parts. No word yet on priority of parts replacements. Effects on QB deliveries a bit unclear but they mentioned that builders will have the option to change to slow build...
QA session will happen soon
Here are my photos of the slides regarding laser cut parts at today's forum.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/WzDn5wQ5eu7qgfrq7
My initial impressions are that Van's is putting a lot of effort and very scientific approach to solving this. Way more than any individual builder could do. I'm convinced that it's best to wait for Van's to make some conclusions.
They did say that there is no need to ground aircraft that are already flying with some later cut parts. No word yet on priority of parts replacements. Effects on QB deliveries a bit unclear but they mentioned that builders will have the option to change to slow build...
QA session will happen soon
bimmer1980
Member
RavenAero - Chris.
Thanks for posting the slides from the presentation! That would have been a fascinating presentation to be there for.
I have a positive outlook on this situation after reading through the slides, but will wait to see official releases.
That said, I have done some ultimate load testing on some non-aircraft structures (outdoor display cabinet systems). They were extrusion and sheet aluminum based and we tested to failure. It's remarkable to see the aluminum move under thousands of pounds of load and then how it fails. We did our testing in a college structure lab with similar machines to what Van's is testing on.
Thanks!
Brad
Early stages of a RV-10 build.
Thanks for posting the slides from the presentation! That would have been a fascinating presentation to be there for.
I have a positive outlook on this situation after reading through the slides, but will wait to see official releases.
That said, I have done some ultimate load testing on some non-aircraft structures (outdoor display cabinet systems). They were extrusion and sheet aluminum based and we tested to failure. It's remarkable to see the aluminum move under thousands of pounds of load and then how it fails. We did our testing in a college structure lab with similar machines to what Van's is testing on.
Thanks!
Brad
Early stages of a RV-10 build.
Great job watch most of this.
David Paule
Well Known Member
Thanks, Chris, that was quite informative.
Dave
Dave
AlexC
Well Known Member
Great video - I got through half of the livestream, and then it went into "private" mode. Any way you can make the video public again?
Thanks,
I watched Brantels live feed of this.
My take always
Very in depth test program.
It will take 8 weeks or more to finish
Many of small cracks that we see extending from the inside are of hole are not propagating. The serious fatigue crack appear at the very outside edge of dimple
Many of the laser cut parts are often have equal or better life span.
Not as concerned about ribs and fuse. They experience low loads.
Not recommending grounding any flying airplane
My take always
Very in depth test program.
It will take 8 weeks or more to finish
Many of small cracks that we see extending from the inside are of hole are not propagating. The serious fatigue crack appear at the very outside edge of dimple
Many of the laser cut parts are often have equal or better life span.
Not as concerned about ribs and fuse. They experience low loads.
Not recommending grounding any flying airplane
Well look, this is a challenging problem for Vans. They know it, we know it. But as pilots, engineers and aircraft constructioneers we all know what it is like to have a screw up and we do what we do...we look at it, we learn from it, we take steps to fix the problem and move on. What are you told on your first check ride? Don't second guess pass mistakes - keep flying the aircraft.
I plan to submit a request to have approximately 20-24 parts replaced and fortunately I was not that far along. I'm hoping that goes with out a glitch - but if vans won't supply them I will just buy those parts. I'm not happy with many of the holes upon closer inspection.
I really feel for the folks who have a harder road ahead of them - but as we all know building an airplane doesn't end with the airworthiness cert....it is a continuous process. I can't tell you how frustrated I have been at times with the continuous stream of RV-12 S/Bs. Feels like I have taken my airplane apart 5 times since i built it. But it is what it is. Price we pay for undertaking a risky hobby/profession and taking the necessary steps to make it is as safe as possible for us, our family and friends.
Take a deep breath, review the problem, make a plan of action IAW with Van's guidance and your personal comfort levels for safety and security, and go forward and complete it.
I have 43/118 parts in the 8 fuselage kit(not including the non structural or not dimpled parts) Full stop on work, fortunately lots of other things to do.
Regardless of the test results, I’ll always feel like it’s just not right. Nobody wants to feel that way about an all in six figure purchase. I’d rather get new parts sooner than later.
When will the online order form to replace parts be available?
Regardless of the test results, I’ll always feel like it’s just not right. Nobody wants to feel that way about an all in six figure purchase. I’d rather get new parts sooner than later.
When will the online order form to replace parts be available?
Jonnyb
Well Known Member
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