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Factory Info: Parts with Laser Cut Holes and Potential for Cracks

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Cost concerns

First time RV10 builder here. I have completed my rudder, VS, HS, and elevators. I was just starting on my tailcone prep when the news broke. Delivery was Dec 2022. I can’t find any cracks in my completed (and primed) components, but I’m not able to inspect most of them well. I’m not even sure how much is laser cut. What I do know is almost all of the tailcone parts that might have been laser cut definitely are.

Tentatively I plan to wait for punched parts for the tailcone, keep my HS, and rebuild VS, Rudder, and elevators (but not the trim tabs). I plan to reuse some weights, bolts, and horns, but I want brand new parts for most of it so I don’t cause more damage.

The cost is showing about $300. I’m not going to complain about that. But some items still show TBD on the price. I’m also not sure who they expect to pay for shipping. But if it stays in that range so be it. My bigger concern is the 150 hours of labor I will have to repeat.

Edit: I'm also worried about the impact on my build time. I stopped working on the tailcone when news broke, so I have had several months of no progress. Now it looks like I'll be waiting even longer until I can get the replacement parts for the tailcone so I can continue forward. In addition, I now have to rebuild almost everything I have already finished. I was supposed to receive my fuselage kit in Dec/Jan, but now it is Mar/Apr and I expect it to slip further. I'm also not going to put more money into this until I actually get my replacement parts and can complete the tailcone kit, so any additional revenue from me to Van's is pushed at least 9 months, and so is the completion of my aircraft.
 
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hey Ryan

I am building the 10 and have finished my wings like you with exception of botom skins.....I can see the shop head of rivets. I used that opportunity to look closely with light and magnifying glass. I do NOT see any cracking of rib flanges. I know the ribs were most likely laser cut by looking at the inside lightning holes to see the small entrance point of the laser cut mark. What do you think you are going to do with the wings as far as ensuring good safety measures for yourself and also preserving resale value????
 
Still shipping LCP

So based on the latest parts acceptability list, has Van’s indicated here or elsewhere (forgive me if I’ve missed it) that parts now listed as “blue - ok to use” will continue to ship regardless of LCP status? In the interest of building on, I’ve selected a few parts to purchase direct. It rubs me the wrong way that I have to pay twice (plus shipping) for the same part but I’m pretty much dead in the water.
 
The only things I have seen from Vans indicate that they are no longer shipping any LCP parts.

I have put in an order to replace most of my LCP parts, and it’s arriving this week, so guess I will find out!
 
Jonnyb said:
The only things I have seen from Vans indicate that they are no longer shipping any LCP parts.

I have put in an order to replace most of my LCP parts, and it’s arriving this week, so guess I will find out!
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Other than paying twice, you’ll be pleasantly surprised. Not 1 lcp with my order.
 
Ordered blue parts for a RV-10 wing - result

flywithayres said:
So based on the latest parts acceptability list, has Van’s indicated here or elsewhere (forgive me if I’ve missed it) that parts now listed as “blue - ok to use” will continue to ship regardless of LCP status? In the interest of building on, I’ve selected a few parts to purchase direct. It rubs me the wrong way that I have to pay twice (plus shipping) for the same part but I’m pretty much dead in the water.
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Several weeks ago, ordered blue parts for RV-10 wing and arrived shortly after beautiful, punched parts!!
 
Did you guys just place an order for parts prior to the web portal being online? Paid list price?
 
Finally got through to Vans this AM after 30 more minutes on hold. Also got a reply to an email from last week from a different Vans rep.

I let them know that I didn't want laser cut parts or a reworked QB kit, and I'd be willing to wait longer or spend some money on parts if that's what it took. If the wait times were crazy I'd convert one of my QB kits to a slow build kit.

Vans had no issues with any of the above and I placed an emp kit order (no confirmation yet) since the lead times for those are next summer right now. They agreed to let me use deposit for previous SB kits that got cancelled in favor of the QB kits.

They said they don't yet have a list of people who don't want reworked QB, so if you fall into that category worth articulating explicitly.

Vans asked that I put all the instructions into the comments box on the order so to help them keep track of everything.

After this turn of events, as of right now I'm cautiously optimistic. Best of luck, everyone.
 
It would be nice if there were a notes field incorporated into the parts replacement portal. If I could note and get a new batch of wing ribs and the torque tube brackets, I would have plenty to do for the next 3 months or so putting my wings back together. But at $23 each x30 of them, I don't want to pay retail.
 
I may have missed this in the update or on previous thread posts, but has Vans mentioned their plans with the survey?

All I can find on it is:
"In addition, when you access the parts portal for the first time we will send you a survey link via email. We sincerely hope you will complete this important survey, as it will help us better understand your thoughts as we work through this."

Has Vans mentioned what their intent is behind the surveys? I imagine it would be pretty time consuming for them to review every one, but I hope that's the case.
 
Parts orders

I was told yesterday that those of us with parts orders with replacement recommended parts are not yet in scope for the portal and replacement orders. The person on the phone, after consulting with members of “the team” for a few minutes asked me to check back in a week, and that it was possible they would reach out prior.

The idea of placing a parts order outright seems like the easy button based on comments here.
 
Requests vs Orders?

rjcthree said:
I was told yesterday that those of us with parts orders with replacement recommended parts are not yet in scope for the portal and replacement orders. The person on the phone, after consulting with members of “the team” for a few minutes asked me to check back in a week, and that it was possible they would reach out prior.
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Sorry, I don't understand what you said. What is "not yet in scope for the portal and replacement orders" mean? And what are you checking back in a week for? Is this all about when our portal requests become actual orders?
 
I think what he is saying is the people that placed parts orders (not kits), and got LCP, have yet to be included in the "fix".
 
I'm really curious to see what kind of timing they come up with for delivering these parts. I'm sure at least some other people are in the same situation I'm in -- I'm not going to pay the final payment on my next kit until I have these replacement parts and have an ETA on when I'm going to finish this kit. So they have deferred my future revenue by at least 9mo at this point, considering I have paused for about 4 months and I have to rebuild almost everything I had already finished.

If many of their other customers push their future payments out 9+ months, that's going to be a serious hit on cash flow.
 
kirkbauer said:
I'm really curious to see what kind of timing they come up with for delivering these parts. I'm sure at least some other people are in the same situation I'm in -- I'm not going to pay the final payment on my next kit until I have these replacement parts and have an ETA on when I'm going to finish this kit. So they have deferred my future revenue by at least 9mo at this point, considering I have paused for about 4 months and I have to rebuild almost everything I had already finished.

If many of their other customers push their future payments out 9+ months, that's going to be a serious hit on cash flow.
Click to expand...

Perhaps not, If they pursue the blue and green parts at customer expense (kit pricing) they are producing parts and selling them. Selling partial kits. Zero hit to cash flow. In fact, making even more money per customer since they bought a kit plus a partial kit.
 
lyosha said:
Finally got through to Vans this AM after 30 more minutes on hold. Also got a reply to an email from last week from a different Vans rep.

I let them know that I didn't want laser cut parts or a reworked QB kit, and I'd be willing to wait longer or spend some money on parts if that's what it took. If the wait times were crazy I'd convert one of my QB kits to a slow build kit.

Vans had no issues with any of the above and I placed an emp kit order (no confirmation yet) since the lead times for those are next summer right now. They agreed to let me use deposit for previous SB kits that got cancelled in favor of the QB kits.

They said they don't yet have a list of people who don't want reworked QB, so if you fall into that category worth articulating explicitly.

Vans asked that I put all the instructions into the comments box on the order so to help them keep track of everything.

After this turn of events, as of right now I'm cautiously optimistic. Best of luck, everyone.
Click to expand...

So they are going to replace you QB kit???? Or am I misunderstanding this?
 
Mike is correct…

Mike is correct. People who rec’d LCPs in parts-only orders have not been contacted yet nor are being provided portal access yet. They asked me to call back in a week for updated information and possible guidance.
 
tenacious9 said:
So they are going to replace you QB kit???? Or am I misunderstanding this?
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So, that is the question of the year! IMO, Van's has made massive mistakes throughout this process. They have left all of us scratching our heads, in particularly, those of us with QB kits with LCP in them. We all have no idea what they are going to do and that alone has caused a lot of anger and confusion. If they had been more forthcoming and transparent, we wouldn't see all the anger and frustration expressed on this forum and the whole internet.
 
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Do we know what's next? I haven't seen any indication of when we will get another update or what it will contain.

I assume the next communication will say by what date we have to have our parts forms filled out, and what the TBD costs will be?

I am hoping to understand when the parts might start trickling in as well. Are we talking weeks/months/year? I know this sounds silly, but I would just like to know how to plan the next few months of my build.
 
QB Kits..

Pskluz said:
So, that is the question of the year! IMO, Van's has made massive mistakes throughout this process. They have left all of us scratching our heads, in particularly, those of us with QB kits with LCP in them. We all have no idea what they are going to do and that alone has caused a lot of anger and confusion. If they had been more forthcoming and transparent, we wouldn't see all the anger and frustration expressed on this forum and the whole internet.
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I just called support (20 mins ago) and they told me to email Greg as they did not have any guidance on how they are handling QB Kits. I'm not very happy and I'm not incline to pay for parts twice and pay shipping cost to North Carolina. I keep telling myself to be patient but this is not been handled gracefully, to say the least.
 
Indeed. It was somewhat disappointing that the last communication contained no indication of when the next one would be. The PR is really, really poor.

We need to know roughly when we're getting these replacement parts. Next month? Next year?

The factory tour info recently posted in another thread gives me hope that at the present production rate this should be sorted fairly soon. But perhaps ~99% of production will go into new kits.
 
rjcthree said:
Mike is correct. People who rec’d LCPs in parts-only orders have not been contacted yet nor are being provided portal access yet. They asked me to call back in a week for updated information and possible guidance.
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Do you want to tag team on the back of my portal slot to order replacements lol??

I haven't installed any of the LCP in my kit so I'm just going to replace all of mine and order new ones, it's only two dozen parts or so, mostly wing ribs.
 
A quick follow-up on this.

Very quickly after I posted this, I got a PM from Greg Hughes explaining that my rudder kit was technically a parts order, not a kit. They bundle the parts needed to build a component into a sub kit but that is not the same thing as a major kit like an empennage or wing or fuselage.

Greg said that they were not quite ready to extend the portal to parts orders yet, but that they would as soon as they are ready.

Thanks Greg for the quick response.



scsmith said:
I bought a rudder kit, ordered in January of 2023 and received in March 2023, within the window of time that LCP were used.

And...

My rudder kit is full of LCP. Some, like the stiffeners, seem to fall into the category of acceptable for use. I will work on a few of those and see if the dimples crack or not.

Some of the parts in the rudder kit fall into the category of "replace".

But i have not received any email about the portal to get the parts.

I guess I should call them? I've been trying not to, imagining the flood of calls they must be getting.
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tenacious9 said:
So they are going to replace you QB kit???? Or am I misunderstanding this?
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You are misunderstanding. I don't have either QB kit in hand. The first one was supposed to be delivered between June and October. I'm not accepting a "reworked" kit or one that has LCP. I'd rather convert one of my kits to slow build and wait for the other to be built using only punched parts, or convert to slow build - which appears to be an option I have.
 
rv10builderx said:
Did anyone NOT receive an email with the parts portal link yet?

I got the original email about potential LCPs in my kits from Van's back in July, and my empennage and wing kits definitely have LCPs. However, no email about the parts portal as of yet, although I see others did receive access.
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I have not received a single email. If this is how they're keeping track of paying customers, it makes me want to question the whole process.
 
Jonnyb said:
The only things I have seen from Vans indicate that they are no longer shipping any LCP parts.

I have put in an order to replace most of my LCP parts, and it’s arriving this week, so guess I will find out!
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Jonnyb - you said you had put in an order and it arrives this week - can you tell me when you placed the order and has it arrived yet, I am trying to understand the current situation re this - also why did you elect to pay for the parts youve already paid for - maybe I have misunderstood what you meant so please educate me

Thanks
 
Sallcock said:
Jonnyb - you said you had put in an order and it arrives this week - can you tell me when you placed the order and has it arrived yet, I am trying to understand the current situation re this - also why did you elect to pay for the parts youve already paid for - maybe I have misunderstood what you meant so please educate me

Thanks
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I put an order in on 9/26/23. It came on Tuesday and there were no laser cut parts.

I haven’t swapped out all my LCP parts, the back ordered ones and the red/yellow ones I’ve left to Vans.

The main reason I did it was because I’ve reached an impasse with my build and wanted to get on with it. If I replaced all my LCP parts at list price it was around $600. So I’m not really that affected by the issue.

That was the main reason, secondly Vans have helped me out in the past with shipping, that’s saved me a small fortune, so I guess I’m repaying the favour a little by buying at full price.

My thinking is that Vans are going to need the good will and patience of their customers to get through this, and if they had put $600 on the cost of the kit I would still have bought it. So what’s the difference?

At the end of the day we will all end up paying for this through higher prices. I’m just paying up front.
 
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I don’t agree that this is a good will or charity situation.

It’s not a bake sale, or Girl Scout cookies. If I got bad cookies I wouldn’t worry about it because my intention was to donate/support a nonprofit organization.

Vans is not a nonprofit.

I’m not onboard with the “here’s some extra $$$” for Van.
 
Latest news on QB kits?

So what's the latest news on moving forward/replacement of QB kits? Any new news? It appears as though the mechanism to replace individual parts will move forward fairly easily and smoothly, but I still really haven't heard much mention about QB kits. I have absolutely no interest in dismantling my -14 QB kit to make any repairs and I don't want a "reworked" kit either. I merely want what I paid for....nothing more, nothing less.
 
My opinion of the report is that it was done as a cost benefit analysis. The QBs are what has things mired up because reworking involves parts plus manhours. Many potential QB owners are likely to reject the QB assembly in its entirety and cancel the order and switch to slow build. I know I would. Leaving Van with a warehouse full of aluminum recycling which last I checked is less than 50 cents a pound.

They need to donate those things to a bunch of A&P schools and take the tax write off.
 
N82VM said:
My opinion of the report is that it was done as a cost benefit analysis...
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In my view, the report seems crafted to create a misleading impression that Van's would endorse the installation of parts with cracks. I find it highly unlikely that they would endorse such a practice, considering the extensive literature available and their own instructions condemning it.

They referenced AC 23-13A at the bottom of the report. That reinforces my suspicion they will never approve the installation of a parts with a crack given how clear AC 23-13A Chapter 6 is with "Flight With Known Cracks."
 
Jack_G_S said:
In my view, the report seems crafted to create a misleading impression that Van's would endorse the installation of parts with cracks. I find it highly unlikely that they would endorse such a practice, considering the extensive literature available and their own instructions condemning it.

They referenced AC 23-13A at the bottom of the report. That reinforces my suspicion they will never approve the installation of a parts with a crack given how clear AC 23-13A Chapter 6 is with "Flight With Known Cracks."
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I have the exact opposite impression, which reinforces that the communication & documentation to date is falling short.

I know that nearly 100% of my LCP crack after reaming to final size, deburring, and dimpling. Even if I file that small crack(s) out, I know from others on this thread that many will crack at riveting - and with the primer and rivet, will be hard to spot.

Vans, to my read, is implying that these small cracks in LCP are OK. If they were to actually update section 5, etc. with acceptance criteria (how many, how big, which parts, etc.) I'd consider it - but this vague guidance is not acceptable.
 
Good LCP

I’ve found some LCP that are good! Unfortunately they aren’t Van’s parts.

These photos are magnified 40x. All holes have that “pretzel” type of cut and the roundness is as good as a punched hole. These good LCP have undersized holes requiring reaming to size.

I think the Van’s LCP are wrong in every way possible, which we all know I guess so…it’s irrelevant at this point. WHY!!!! (Yelling to the Heavens)
 

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Bullpup said:
I have the exact opposite impression, which reinforces that the communication & documentation to date is falling short.

I know that nearly 100% of my LCP crack after reaming to final size, deburring, and dimpling. Even if I file that small crack(s) out, I know from others on this thread that many will crack at riveting - and with the primer and rivet, will be hard to spot.

Vans, to my read, is implying that these small cracks in LCP are OK. If they were to actually update section 5, etc. with acceptance criteria (how many, how big, which parts, etc.) I'd consider it - but this vague guidance is not acceptable.
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On the upside, if Vans says it’s ok to fly with cracks, I’ll be heaps happier if my HS has stress relieved its attach points :D
 
Bullpup said:
…
Vans, to my read, is implying that these small cracks in LCP are OK. If they were to actually update section 5, etc. with acceptance criteria (how many, how big, which parts, etc.) I'd consider it - but this vague guidance is not acceptable.
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If you read it carefully it’s very grey on that issue. In fact it never really mentions existing cracks from heat affected zones.

All references are to the chances of fatigue cracks forming. In the summary it says “it is very unlikely a fatigue crack should ever develop”. But that’s not the question you have. The cracks are already there. The question is, is it ok to install a part with an existing HAZ crack? Also what is the propagation rate of a HAZ crack and as you mentioned what is the limits. But if you follow the guidance of AC23-13A it’s all rather irrelevant. Unless you do an acceptable repair to every part that has cracks.

They claim to test a worse case scenario but don’t define what that is. Does that include parts with HAZ cracks? Or are those rejected because they didn’t meet the requirements of AC23-13A? I’m pretty sure they were not testing parts that look like the ones I’ve posted before. I’m also sure there is a near infinite combination of defects
 

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This is taken from the portal and is in the ”acceptable use” section: (my bold)

It has been determined through extensive testing and engineering analysis that hole edge cracks in these parts are not a structural concern and are extremely unlikely to propagate. In tests conducted by Van's and by a third-party engineering test company, the fatigue and strength characteristics, and lifespan of these laser-cut parts, is beyond the reasonable life of the airplane. These in general have lower loads which results in significantly longer fatigue life.

That to me is fairly definitive.
 
Jonnyb said:
This is taken from the portal and is in the ”acceptable use” section: (my bold)

It has been determined through extensive testing and engineering analysis that hole edge cracks in these parts are not a structural concern and are extremely unlikely to propagate. In tests conducted by Van's and by a third-party engineering test company, the fatigue and strength characteristics, and lifespan of these laser-cut parts, is beyond the reasonable life of the airplane. These in general have lower loads which results in significantly longer fatigue life.

That to me is fairly definitive.
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That’s just shocking. I never accessed the portal so I never saw that. I don’t know how one can reverence AC 23-13a and say cracks are OK. Better take a screenshot of that one to show the DAR
 
Look over your firewall fwd kits!

No mention of these parts anywhere! I found jagged holes and what looks like burn marks. Parts of dates in 2022 which falls in the range.

I found nothing in the 27 page list that said firewall forward kit. Not a single part that starts with letters CB (engine baffles). Did I miss something or are the parts in firewall forward under the radar?

Engine baffles are already prone to cracking.
 

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N82VM said:
No mention of these parts anywhere! I found jagged holes and what looks like burn marks. Parts of dates in 2022 which falls in the range.

I found nothing in the 27 page list that said firewall forward kit. Not a single part that starts with letters CB (engine baffles). Did I miss something or are the parts in firewall forward under the radar?

Engine baffles are already prone to cracking.
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My FWF kit (arrived Aug 22) is still mainly sitting on my shelves and haven’t been touched after inventory. I didn’t specifically notice any LCP but honestly this wasn’t a thing then as it is now so I wasn’t looking for them. I thought I was good seeing as there were no FWF items on Vans list but guess I need to go back and verify now.
Thanks for the heads up.

Regards,
Zach
 
Update: October 8, 2023

Engineering Assessment document updated - Added additional clarifying information and illustrative test sample photos to the "Accelerated Life Testing" section of the document:

image007.png


Also, we realize that things are not moving as quickly as you or any of us here at Van’s would like. We are using all of our available resources to thoroughly identify and determine the full scope of potentially impacted customers and to plan accordingly. We are also assessing the time required to produce punched parts for those who want to go that route. At the same time, we are working to create instructions for the removal/replacement process to be used by our assembly teams and builders in the field. Of course, we remain engaged in extensive analysis, testing, and engineering reviews, examining which parts need to be removed/replaced and how to accomplish this in the fastest way possible.* We can assure you that our teams are working through this issue as quickly as we can. We expect to have more information to provide soon, but don’t want to make firm timeline commitments without sufficient confidence in those timelines. Please understand that this is a difficult, complex issue to resolve and plan for - and it’s very important to us to get it right for you. We will share more updates and plans as soon as we have them ready to go. Thank you.​
 
auburnaviator said:
My FWF kit (arrived Aug 22) is still mainly sitting on my shelves and haven’t been touched after inventory. I didn’t specifically notice any LCP but honestly this wasn’t a thing then as it is now so I wasn’t looking for them. I thought I was good seeing as there were no FWF items on Vans list but guess I need to go back and verify now.
Thanks for the heads up.

Regards,
Zach
Click to expand...

The baffle parts have essentially always been laser-cut. Those parts fall into the "historically laser-cut parts" category and continue to be made that way. They will not appear as named parts on the laser-cut parts list.
 
Jack_G_S said:
They claim to test a worse case scenario but don’t define what that is. Does that include parts with HAZ cracks? Or are those rejected because they didn’t meet the requirements of AC23-13A? I’m pretty sure they were not testing parts that look like the ones I’ve posted before. I’m also sure there is a near infinite combination of defects
Click to expand...

Every hole in every laser-cut test sample has had a crack. We have updated the assessment document and posted it today, to help clarify this. See earlier post.
 
N82VM said:
No mention of these parts anywhere! I found jagged holes and what looks like burn marks…..

Engine baffles are already prone to cracking.
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greghughespdx said:
The baffle parts have essentially always been laser-cut. Those parts fall into the "historically laser-cut parts" category and continue to be made that way. They will not appear as named parts on the laser-cut parts list.
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Since these have been “historically laser-cut parts” as Greg just stated, I wonder if this LCP process is the reason that engine baffles have been more prone to cracking in the past than other parts? Purely speculation and more just asking the question…. It could also be that since they are in such close proximity to the motor that they get a lot more vibrations compared to other parts and thus are more prone to cracking?
 
My baffle kit is half n half. Some was blue plastic. Some is LCP. If it has been historically done that way why is it a mix of punch and LCP?
 
greghughespdx said:
Every hole in every laser-cut test sample has had a crack. We have updated the assessment document and posted it today, to help clarify this. See earlier post.
Click to expand...

Greg, thanks as always for the updates and hard work.

Does Vans plan to, or will they consider, drafting acceptance criteria for the "acceptable for use" LCP? As a 1st time builder, the guidance in section 5 and AC 23-13a is how I judge my work. By the letter of this engineering assessment, I could install swiss cheese on these secondary structures.

If there was something written, other than "OK", we could all make more informed decisions. In the absence of clear guidance, I don't think the conservative approach is unreasonable. For me, personally, this has almost become less about the LCP themselves and more on the uncertainty introduced into the standards, and what process is (or should be) used to make those changes.
 
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