Factory Info: Parts with Laser Cut Holes and Potential for Cracks

[ccarlson]

I did some meaningful cost analysis of my affected kit.

RV-8 Fuse

I did a similar exercise for my RV-14A’s empennage, wings, and fuse kits.

317 unique parts - $4,430.27
122 unique red or yellow - $1,719.04
195 unique blue or green - $2,711.23

Tax on blue & green: $169.45

I also received a 5% military discount on my kits. Not sure that matters at this point.

Best estimate I can muster for shipping based on dimensions and weight: $400

So that would be… $3,280.68 ?

No

 

[N82VM]

I did not account for tax and shipping, but good point

If anyone else has done this please share. I think this is a meaningful data point for all. It would be nice to have it clean without tax and shipping and a separate tax/shipping estimate.

 

[bertschb]

If anyone else has done this please share.

I did a rough estimate of the cost to replace the blue and green parts for my RV-14A wing kit and it was $526. Roughly half of my parts on "the list" were not laser cut. I'm not putting laser cut parts in my new build so if I have to eat the $500, I will.

 

[ccarlson]

I did a rough estimate of the cost to replace the blue and green parts for my RV-14A wing kit and it was $526. Roughly half of my parts on "the list" were not laser cut. I'm not putting laser cut parts in my new build so if I have to eat the $500, I will.

I also will not be using any of the 195 “Acceptable for Use” LCP in my kits for all the reasons identified (non-standard, >90% crack rate, resale impact, marketed as punched not laser, etc.).

If my cost to replace the LCPs was $500, that’d be 1.6% on top of my initial outlay. I’d still be a bit miffed, but I’d eat it so I could move forward. On the other hand, $3,280 is a 10.4% premium on top of the $31,273.59 I paid for my kits.

I’m obviously not okay with that.

 

[N82VM]

tail tally

RV-8 Tail
-34 unique part numbers $483
-50 total parts (some are qty 2,3,4) $723.1
-19 unique "Red" parts
-0 unique "Yellow" parts
-13 unique "Blue" parts
-2 unique "Green" parts


-E-store cost 50 total parts $723.1
-E store cost Red and Yellow parts $379.05
-E store cost Blue and Green parts $344.05

Proposed 66% cost (aka kit price)
-50 total parts $477.24
-Red and Yellow parts $250.17
-Blue and Green parts $227.07

 

[BruceW]

I also will not be using any of the 195 “Acceptable for Use” LCP in my kits for all the reasons identified (non-standard, >90% crack rate, resale impact, marketed as punched not laser, etc.).

If my cost to replace the LCPs was $500, that’d be 1.6% on top of my initial outlay. I’d still be a bit miffed, but I’d eat it so I could move forward. On the other hand, $3,280 is a 10.4% premium on top of the $31,273.59 I paid for my kits.

I’m obviously not okay with that.

Suggest you compare cost options to resale value delta.
Would the price difference of a finished -14 (around $200K), with or without LCP, be more than $3280? If yes, then may be worth doing now.
(hurts a little less when you look at options this way)

 

[dstates]

Suggest you compare cost options to resale value delta.
Would the price difference of a finished -14 (around $200K), with or without LCP, be more than $3280? If yes, then may be worth doing now.
(hurts a little less when you look at options this way)

That's not the point. We already paid for these parts once and expected to get what we paid for. We shouldn't have to pay for them a second time.

 

[ccarlson]

Suggest you compare cost options to resale value delta.
Would the price difference of a finished -14 (around $200K), with or without LCP, be more than $3280? If yes, then may be worth doing now.
(hurts a little less when you look at options this way)

I appreciate the perspective, and understand what you mean; however, I’m not okay with this. At all.

Looking at it differently, if I ordered all three kits today - at today’s prices, which are $2,140 more than in July 2022 - they would cost me (w/ tax & shipping) over $1,700 less than what I would spend if I were to purchase the LCP replacements for the scrap metal I have now. I’d have to wait… but then again, I’m already waiting.

 

[N82VM]

It may not be the point.

I’m trying to ascertain how much this all costs.

Is this on average a $1000 problem for 1000 customers? 1 Million dollars.

Is all the negative attention worth it?

 

[nerdwithoutacause]

Guys, I get the cost argument and also am a bit annoyed that not all affected parts will be replaced. However, I have an additional concern.

In the affect parts list Rev 3, released in July, there were some parts that said "Replace" and now in the new RS.6 version, they have disappeared.

An example, in an RV-7 EMP Kit, the R-802PP Rudder Spar, it was present in Rev 3 as REPLACE but now it doesn't appear. There is no justification as to why it is been removed.

So do we assume, that the test results proved it was OK? I am a bit nervous

I am going through the kit lists carefully and checking what I really need.

 

[TX_Flyer]

Guys, I get the cost argument and also am a bit annoyed that not all affected parts will be replaced. However, I have an additional concern.

In the affect parts list Rev 3, released in July, there were some parts that said "Replace" and now in the new RS.6 version, they have disappeared.

An example, in an RV-7 EMP Kit, the R-802PP Rudder Spar, it was present in Rev 3 as REPLACE but now it doesn't appear. There is no justification as to why it is been removed.

So do we assume, that the test results proved it was OK? I am a bit nervous

I am going through the kit lists carefully and checking what I really need.

Probably because all the kits shipped within the LCP timeframe had been transitioned to the RV-9 style rudder. The spar PN is R-902. R-802PP still exists in the RV-8 Tail kit listing.

 

[nerdwithoutacause]

Probably because all the kits shipped within the LCP timeframe had been transitioned to the RV-9 style rudder. The spar PN is R-902. R-802PP still exists in the RV-8 Tail kit listing.

That is a good call!

 

[FarrellDiesel1]

No one asked my opinion, but since plenty of you are unloading on Van's I figured I'd post it anyway.

I am only partially done with a -10 emp kit and I would much rather pay for replacement parts and have a company stay solvent so I can purchase the remaining 3 kits from them instead of having a completely useless tail kit for wall art in the shop.

I am not happy about how the situation came to be or how it was handled, but some of you need to cool off or sell the kit and move on so you don't ruin things for the other few thousand of us that really enjoy building these amazing aircraft.

-Seth Farrell
Diesel mechanic/ machinist
Not an engineer
Not a professional pilot
Aviation lover and kitplane nerd

 

[airguy]

No one asked my opinion, but since plenty of you are unloading on Van's I figured I'd post it anyway.

I am only partially done with a -10 emp kit and I would much rather pay for replacement parts and have a company stay solvent so I can purchase the remaining 3 kits from them instead of having a completely useless tail kit for wall art in the shop.

I am not happy about how the situation came to be or how it was handled, but some of you need to cool off or sell the kit and move on so you don't ruin things for the other few thousand of us that really enjoy building these amazing aircraft.

-Seth Farrell
Diesel mechanic/ machinist
Not an engineer
Not a professional pilot
Aviation lover and kitplane nerd

Oh, no you don't! Don't be trying to inject logic into an emotional argument!

I've inventoried my parts and responded on the portal, and just as a data point for others, I have decided to accept and use the "green" parts but will replace all the "blue" parts, even if I have to pay for them to do so. Vans does not exactly have the greatest history about SB's resulting from cracking in airframes years down the road - I'm not going to put LCP's in the airplane that are in any type of loaded location. The green parts are all non-load or extremely light load positions (like cover plates etc), I'm good with that.

 

[airguy]

It may not be the point.

I’m trying to ascertain how much this all costs.

Is this on average a $1000 problem for 1000 customers? 1 Million dollars.

Is all the negative attention worth it?

Depends on whose million dollars is at stake.

 

[ccarlson]

Depends on whose million dollars is at stake.

Apparently ~3.5% of mine.

 

[ncardella]

I agree we should utilize logic and attempt to remove feelings from it.

I have a QB Fuselage for an RV8A with numerous LCPs in it. I got in the Fus. kit a little over $15,300.00 plus shipping to the East coast another $2,000.00.
So total $17,300.00.

I try to remain logical but at some point, some assurances from Vans would be nice. I'm still going back to the Responsibility, accountability and trust. Maybe after spending 30 years in the Marines I'm just expecting too much.


Nelson S. Cardella, A&P IA
www.cabinamaintenance.com
[email protected]
[email protected]
704-301-3852

Oh, no you don't! Don't be trying to inject logic into an emotional argument!

I've inventoried my parts and responded on the portal, and just as a data point for others, I have decided to accept and use the "green" parts but will replace all the "blue" parts, even if I have to pay for them to do so. Vans does not exactly have the greatest history about SB's resulting from cracking in airframes years down the road - I'm not going to put LCP's in the airplane that are in any type of loaded location. The green parts are all non-load or extremely light load positions (like cover plates etc), I'm good with that.

 

[tfriske]

This is a "sunk cost fallacy".

"The sunk cost fallacy is the tendency for people to continue an endeavor or course of action even when abandoning it would be more beneficial. Because we have invested our time, energy, or other resources, we feel that it would all have been for nothing if we quit."

…

Depends entirely on each individual’s determination of “benefit.”

 

[aguiraf]

No one asked my opinion, but since plenty of you are unloading on Van's I figured I'd post it anyway.

I am only partially done with a -10 emp kit and I would much rather pay for replacement parts and have a company stay solvent so I can purchase the remaining 3 kits from them instead of having a completely useless tail kit for wall art in the shop.

I am not happy about how the situation came to be or how it was handled, but some of you need to cool off or sell the kit and move on so you don't ruin things for the other few thousand of us that really enjoy building these amazing aircraft.

-Seth Farrell
Diesel mechanic/ machinist
Not an engineer
Not a professional pilot
Aviation lover and kitplane nerd

I second your comments, we’ll said.

 

[Bullpup]

I second your comments, we’ll said.

I want the company to stay solvent as well, and at the end of the day will pay for what I need to get my project finished to the standards that were commonly agreed upon until last week.

But imagine you're a new builder trying to pick your first kit. Would you prefer to see a company that identified an error and made it right, or a company that appears to change build standards when convenient and violates assurances to builders (will replace parts at no charge)?

I assert that the value of those future builders & kit sales >> the cost to fix this issue. Vans appears to choose otherwise - and I question their math.

 

[Everwild]

My guess is they are evaluating those part replacement request forms trying to figure out what the true financial impact is. If they can cover the cost of replacement blue parts and stay solvent, I imagine they will. If not, they're going to discount them at a level that allows them to get through this and do the best they can for builders.

Vans needs to make money like any business but I don't think they are greedy or gouging in any way. Yes it is their mistake and it needs to hurt, which I'm sure it is, in many ways.

 

[mstrauss]

LCP Identification On Installed Parts

As I mentioned earlier, I was so sure the three most aft Emp bulkheads (F-01410, F-01411A, F-01411B, F-01412A, F-01412B) were punched, but after looking at a picture from when I was prepping one of the bulkheads, I'm not 100%. I've been thinking of how best to make a more clear determination, before committing to removing them. I'd like to get others thoughts.

Looking at the LCP dimple cracking I have experienced, the cracks are easily seen with the naked eye, even after priming, that is, if you know what to look for.

However, once riveted in place, I can't see the cracks. Therefore, I am thinking of drilling out a number of rivets, and inspecting for any sign of cracks. If I find a crack, then I'm done inspecting, and need to start planning for removal. If I don't find a crack, how many rivets do I remove and inspect, before making a final determination?

These bulkheads are some important structures, which I think will be difficult (not impossible) to get out clean. I fear compromising the skins in the process.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[mbell]

As I mentioned earlier, I was so sure the three most aft Emp bulkheads (F-01410, F-01411A, F-01411B, F-01412A, F-01412B) were punched, but after looking at a picture, I'm not 100%. I've been thinking of how best to make a more clear determination, before committing to removing them. I'd like to get others thoughts.

Looking at the LCP dimple cracking I have experienced, the cracks are easily seen with the naked eye, even after priming, that is, if you know what to look for.

However, once riveted in place, I can't see the cracks. Therefore, I am thinking of drilling out a number of rivets, and inspecting for any sign of cracks. If I find a crack, then I'm done inspecting, and need to start planning for removal. If I don't find a crack, who many rivets do I remove and inspect, before making a final determination?

These bulkheads are some important structures, which I think will be difficult (not imposable) to get out clean. I fear compromising the skins in the process.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Mike, do you have some non-drilled, non-dimpled holes you can inspect? If any of them has a notch, it's a laser-cut part. If it's perfectly round then less likely.

 

[mstrauss]

LCP Identification On Installed Parts

Mike, do you have some non-drilled, non-dimpled holes you can inspect? If any of them has a notch, it's a laser-cut part. If it's perfectly round then less likely.

Here is the original picture of F-01410 that got me wondering. You will see some areas that look to be processed with a conditioning wheel. That is my work. It looks like I prepped all the edges and larger holes. Attached is also a closeup of F-01410 installed. There is a hole (circled in yellow) to the right of the rivet that is not drilled or dimpled. Having been debured and primed, I am not sure. Does that tell you anything?

 

[Paul Thomas]

Do we know why the RV7 fuselage is so much shorter than it was?

Current list:

Old list:

 

[ccarlson]

As I mentioned earlier, I was so sure the three most aft Emp bulkheads (F-01410, F-01411A, F-01411B, F-01412A, F-01412B) were punched, but after looking at a picture while prepping one of the bulkheads, I'm not 100%. I've been thinking of how best to make a more clear determination, before committing to removing them. I'd like to get others thoughts.

Looking at the LCP dimple cracking I have experienced, the cracks are easily seen with the naked eye, even after priming, that is, if you know what to look for.

However, once riveted in place, I can't see the cracks. Therefore, I am thinking of drilling out a number of rivets, and inspecting for any sign of cracks. If I find a crack, then I'm done inspecting, and need to start planning for removal. If I don't find a crack, how many rivets do I remove and inspect, before making a final determination?

These bulkheads are some important structures, which I think will be difficult (not impossible) to get out clean. I fear compromising the skins in the process.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I’m not certain, of course, but the one on the left has the jagged, non-uniform surface texture that is one of the hallmarks of a laser cut. I can’t tell about the one on the right.

Here are examples of punched versus laser cut holes from my collection.

The clean, punched hole (left) is on VS-801PP, vertical stab skin. The cracked hole (right) is on lcp VS-704, vertical stab root rib (“Acceptable for Use”).

 

[cbkillion]

Here is the original picture of F-01410...

It looks to me like the bulkhead when sitting on the bench is punched. I don't see any obvious signs of slag that many of my LCP have (which is inconclusive in and of itself). Also, if you look at the reflections, it looks like the metal is deformed ever-so-slightly right around the holes. I have noticed that warping on my parts where the punch presumably deformed the material a little bit as it was pushing through. Conversely, on my LC parts, the metal stays perfectly in-plane right up the edge of the hole so the reflection is undistorted.

That may be another characteristic to look for.

 

[mbell]

Here is the original picture of F-01410 that got me wondering. You will see some areas that look to be processed with a conditioning wheel. That is my work. It looks like I prepped all the edges and larger holes. Attached is also a closeup of F-01410 installed. There is a hole (circled in yellow) to the right of the rivet that is not drilled or dimpled. Having been debured and primed, I am not sure. Does that tell you anything?

Hard to tell for sure, but the picture on the left sort of looks like a punched part, with the "back side" of the punch facing towards the camera. At 9 o'clock the yellow-circled hole looks slightly out of round like a notch has been filed out, but may just be the camera angle. Usually it's very obvious if an empty hole either has a notch or has a smoothed-out notch.

 

[swift12]

I’m not certain, of course, but the one on the left has the jagged, non-uniform surface texture that is one of the hallmarks of a laser cut. I can’t tell about the one on the right.

Here are examples of punched versus laser cut holes from my collection.

The clean, punched hole (left) is on VS-801PP, vertical stab skin. The cracked hole (right) is on lcp VS-704, vertical stab root rib (“Acceptable for Use”).

Not a chance in **** i'd use that cracked part Chad. no matter what anyone said.

 

[rjcthree]

Is the web portal available yet, or am I missing it?

I spent a few minutes searching for the portal mentioned at both the Vans and VAF sites, and cannot find it. If it’s there can someone drop the link please? I’m probably one of the least affected…I’ll only have to scrap an -8 flap. Practice makes perfect, I guess.

 

[kearney]

I spent a few minutes searching for the portal mentioned at both the Vans and VAF sites, and cannot find it. If it’s there can someone drop the link please? I’m probably one of the least affected…I’ll only have to scrap an -8 flap. Practice makes perfect, I guess.

Hi

You will have to contact Van's for access. The portal link is different for each builder as it is tied to your builder number and is specific to the kit(s) you have purchased.

 

[lipper03]

Portal

I’m pleased with the portal. Looks to be flexible enough for a builder just needing parts, all the way to new pieces for rebuild. I know the optional replacement parts are tbd on price, but I get that that’s more my choice, so can see if those are eventually charged. The rebuild parts are very reasonable. Only things that are missing look to be easy swap parts, hardware, powder coated, fiberglass, wiring harness etc. Easy to use and search.

 

[airguy]

Agreed - the portal is a good piece of work. My main problem is the time factor - this has been dragging on far too long, and nobody has even been able to ORDER replacement parts yet, much less receive them.

 

[bertschb]

...My main problem is the time factor - this has been dragging on far too long, and nobody has even been able to ORDER replacement parts yet, much less receive them.

I don't expect to receive all the replacement parts for my SB wing kit until next spring - or even next summer. I'll be astounded if they are available by the end of this year.

 

[rkensrud]

As I mentioned earlier, I was so sure the three most aft Emp bulkheads (F-01410, F-01411A, F-01411B, F-01412A, F-01412B) were punched, but after looking at a picture from when I was prepping one of the bulkheads, I'm not 100%. I've been thinking of how best to make a more clear determination, before committing to removing them. I'd like to get others thoughts.

Looking at the LCP dimple cracking I have experienced, the cracks are easily seen with the naked eye, even after priming, that is, if you know what to look for.

However, once riveted in place, I can't see the cracks. Therefore, I am thinking of drilling out a number of rivets, and inspecting for any sign of cracks. If I find a crack, then I'm done inspecting, and need to start planning for removal. If I don't find a crack, how many rivets do I remove and inspect, before making a final determination?

These bulkheads are some important structures, which I think will be difficult (not impossible) to get out clean. I fear compromising the skins in the process.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

The RV10 is similar with 10, 11, 12a, and 12b all listed as “Red”. I took all 4 of them out in about 3 hours without ruining anything. A few skin holes were enlarged but nothing too bad. I’m waiting for a 40x scope to show up so I can look for cracks.

 

[lipper03]

Yeah, I’ve assumed parts will be awhile, so I started another build in the meantime. Just keeping learning and trying new things.

 

[scrollF4]

Hi

You will have to contact Van's for access. The portal link is different for each builder as it is tied to your builder number and is specific to the kit(s) you have purchased.

Call their parts order department. I built an RV-8 rudder for my -7A in January. Turns out it has 3 or 4 red laser cut parts plus a few blue parts. I had not received a portal email so I called Vans. They said I was the first to call that needed portal access based on just a rudder kit: That’s a parts order, not a kit order.

They sent me the portal link, and now my LCP replacements are in the queue. I’ll then order a new rudder kit and have those parts omitted.

So a flap would come from their parts department. Start there by phone. It took 20-30 minutes and I was on the portal.

 

[rjcthree]

Thanks all

Exactly the info I was looking for, Scroll. Thanks.

 

[flyingRV]

Survey

Hi,
I‘ve accessed the new portal for the first time a couple of days ago.
If I got it right, I should receive a link to the survey but havn‘t received any link. What is this survey about?

 

[JB123]

No Laser Cuts Parts

Received letter (email) from Vans stating that my 14A tail did not have any Laser Cut part, now i can continue work



JB

 

[Brantel]

Received letter (email) from Vans stating that my 14A tail did not have any Laser Cut part, now i can continue work



JB

Others have reported the same but claim they did have LCP’s. Recommend you do your own inspection.

 

[GrahamF]

R-710

Here's something.

R-710 is listed as a red part. It has pre-cut holes, but the pre-cut holes don't get dimpled - they end up taking AN470 and/or blind rivets.

There are dimpled holes in this part once you are finished, but those holes you drill yourself in assembly with the skin/rib.

Perhaps the database interrogation logic they used to compile the list couldn't deal with this combination and marked it as affected because it has the two criteria (pre-cut holes and builder dimpled) but didn't pick up that they're not the same holes.

Might R-710 get a reprieve?

 

[Mr_Sierra_Juliet]

Here's something.

R-710 is listed as a red part. It has pre-cut holes, but the pre-cut holes don't get dimpled - they end up taking AN470 and/or blind rivets.

There are dimpled holes in this part once you are finished, but those holes you drill yourself in assembly with the skin/rib.

Perhaps the database interrogation logic they used to compile the list couldn't deal with this combination and marked it as affected because it has the two criteria (pre-cut holes and builder dimpled) but didn't pick up that they're not the same holes.

Might R-710 get a reprieve?

Beat me to it! I have contacted Vans.

Strangely, my part is dated a week before the change over is listed in R5.6 of the parts list yet still contains laser cut holes. I have also contacted Vans about this. This is the first I am aware that a laser part pre-dates the change-over date (even if only by a few days).

 

[Sallcock]

All - I was a talking to a person on the Facebook page for the RV10 and they said they had the same issues with the empennage kit build - they said that they ordered a new empennage kit for the RV10 and with the discounts offered from Vans it came to $125

Certainly sounds too good to be true but if it is then its something I will be doing to completely rebuild the empennage for my RV10 - have any of you heard of this ?

I have submitted my portal information and the whole list of parts in the empennage are not there so if you decide that you don't want to take any chances re the kit you've already built then you'll need to figure out what the parts in your kit are missing after using the portal

Cheers

 

[Brantel]

All - I was a talking to a person on the Facebook page for the RV10 and they said they had the same issues with the empennage kit build - they said that they ordered a new empennage kit for the RV10 and with the discounts offered from Vans it came to $125

Certainly sounds too good to be true but if it is then its something I will be doing to completely rebuild the empennage for my RV10 - have any of you heard of this ?

I have submitted my portal information and the whole list of parts in the empennage are not there so if you decide that you don't want to take any chances re the kit you've already built then you'll need to figure out what the parts in your kit are missing after using the portal

Cheers

Yeah, that sounds very unlikely.

 

[kearney]

All - I was a talking to a person on the Facebook page for the RV10 and they said they had the same issues with the empennage kit build - they said that they ordered a new empennage kit for the RV10 and with the discounts offered from Vans it came to $125

Certainly sounds too good to be true but if it is then its something I will be doing to completely rebuild the empennage for my RV10 - have any of you heard of this ?

I have submitted my portal information and the whole list of parts in the empennage are not there so if you decide that you don't want to take any chances re the kit you've already built then you'll need to figure out what the parts in your kit are missing after using the portal

Cheers

Hi

Did you select the extra parts using the option shown in the screen shot. If you put in a part prefix (i.e. "F-1") it will show you all the parts in the kit that match that. Be sure to select "ALUM" get get all the extra aluminum bits and bobs such as J-Channel etc.

 

[Sallcock]

Correction to my last post - it was only for the VS - so please disregard the claim of $125 - too good to be true after all

 

[Sallcock]

Hi

Did you select the extra parts using the option shown in the screen shot. If you put in a part prefix (i.e. "F-1") it will show you all the parts in the kit that match that. Be sure to select "ALUM" get get all the extra aluminum bits and bobs such as J-Channel etc.

I didn't - did you go through all the parts for the Emp and then add them in on this portal then ?

 

[kearney]

Yes I did, pretty much need everything

 

[joer308]

Who was the supplier for the LCP?