I think anyone with a business-to-business contract services background would understand that a testing project, commissioned at short notice and lasting a couple of months, involving a customised programme with multiple samples and variables, using non-trivial machinery, cannot be less than a six-figure sum.
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Factory Info: Parts with Laser Cut Holes and Potential for Cracks
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I think anyone with a business-to-business contract services background would understand that a testing project, commissioned at short notice and lasting a couple of months, involving a customised programme with multiple samples and variables, using non-trivial machinery, cannot be less than a six-figure sum.
I was trying to make a point about changing the standards for LCP and then abandoning the LCP production process to go back to the old way.
This is like a bakery going from good pies to ones burnt on the edges. Instead of tossing them out, they tell you they’re still good. Then go back to the old way because whatever was done was a mistake. If you don’t agree you can buy another pie but why would you? You have a perfectly good burnt on the edges pie.
I think this attempt to pass off these parts is a short term gain and a long term loss.
Do I want to finish? Yes. It will cost extra to do it. As a result I will never build another Vans. I won’t be fooled twice. There’s the long term loss. Lose additional sales over retail $1500 of parts probably $500-700 actual cost.
I was initially disappointed about the 15 as I was hoping for an updated 8. Then realized it would be a good float plane candidate. I won’t be waving any cash at Van for the 15 and will look elsewhere. Maybe a Bearhawk.
This is like a bakery going from good pies to ones burnt on the edges. Instead of tossing them out, they tell you they’re still good. Then go back to the old way because whatever was done was a mistake. If you don’t agree you can buy another pie but why would you? You have a perfectly good burnt on the edges pie.
I think this attempt to pass off these parts is a short term gain and a long term loss.
Do I want to finish? Yes. It will cost extra to do it. As a result I will never build another Vans. I won’t be fooled twice. There’s the long term loss. Lose additional sales over retail $1500 of parts probably $500-700 actual cost.
I was initially disappointed about the 15 as I was hoping for an updated 8. Then realized it would be a good float plane candidate. I won’t be waving any cash at Van for the 15 and will look elsewhere. Maybe a Bearhawk.
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Exactly - maybe I should have put a disclaimer on speculation, but given the sheer number of variables under examination (as outlined in the engineering assessment), the machinery and time to execute, and the engineering time to examine the results easily gets into that range, especially with US-based engineering.
Best,
Chris
RV-8 in work #84142
LCP Emp - awaiting disassembly
LCP wings - on hold
LCP fuse - on hold
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I believe there is a large chunk of truth here. First order of business once those guys are involved is "Shut up, and let's assess the situation"
You answered your own question. An EAB is considered airworthy when it is in a condition for safe Operation. It is in that condition whenever it is declared to be so, via a written and signed statement in the log book, by the builder (in the case of an AWC issuance), or a person holding the airplane specific repairman's certificate, or an A&P within the last 12 months. The SAWC process starts with the builder making such a written and signed declaration and that is exactly how the FAA deems it to be airworthy. You will not be issued an SAWC unless the FAA, or it's representative (i.e. DAR) has that declaration in writing. The FAA can deny issuance. I don't understand the mechanism by which they do so. This is really no different than the FAA classifying otherwise airworthy certified or EAB planes that have valid annual inspections or CI's as un-airworthy. The FAA has final authority to ground ANY plane they feel like at any time.
Many guys here have had their AWC denied because they didn't have a whiskey compass. My FSDO guy went down this path, but was able to show him the regs that state a magnetic sensing instrument and not a compass per se is required under the regs. It is usually regulatory stuff like this that are problems. Never heard of anyone that was denyed an AWC due to the method used to cut the metal or cracks buried under dimples.
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Because many buyers don't want anything to do with LCP's even if they were determined to be BETTER than punched parts. Perception trumps facts.
I believe Vans and their engineering report when they say the blue and green LCP's are fine to use. But I'm still replacing them. Why? I'm a new builder and like any new builder, I want to do the best job possible building this airplane. I've spent a ton of money just preparing for this build. Money has been no object. So, if there is ANY reason a LCP could be an issue (e.g. future resale value), I'm not using it- even if I have to pay to replace it.
Although my build has been delayed and there is uncertainty about the availability of replacement parts, I support Vans. Every contact I've had with Greg and the Vans team since the LCP issue started has been very positive. They have a MASSIVE issue to deal with. They don't have 10,000 employees, staff attorneys and millions of dollars in reserve to deal with this. They are doing the best they can and are working very hard to help us all. Just because we don't hear from them doesn't mean they aren't burning the midnight oil to help us.
Does anybody really think Vans has the resources to replace all LCP's, QB's etc free of charge on short notice and not have it put the company's survival at risk? Of course they are trying to find a way to reduce their exposure. Everybody here would do the same!
They will absolutely replace the red and yellow parts their engineering reports have determined are not acceptable. I understand why they are dragging their feet on free replacement of the blue and green parts. I would too. They know those parts are OK from an engineering perspective but they also know builders want them replaced regardless. QB's are an entirely different issue and probably the costliest LCP problem to resolve. I suspect that is where their focus is right now.
That's all fine and understandable... what I don't understand is the lack of communication... Bueller??? Bueller???
Jonnyb
Well Known Member
That's because it's just Greg, and on a recent Youtube where guys had visited the factory he looked absolutely shattered. I just hope he's ok.
johwiltb
Member
Portal Access?
Was there any way of requesting the portal link? I've emailed Vans three times now (on Oct 2, 7, and 16 asking for it with absolutely no reply) as my empennage kit has some red-colored parts that I can see laser scorch marks on (such as spars) but I haven't received a link yet. I'm wondering if it's just me or if anyone else has had similar issues and have figured out a resolution. Thanks!
Was there any way of requesting the portal link? I've emailed Vans three times now (on Oct 2, 7, and 16 asking for it with absolutely no reply) as my empennage kit has some red-colored parts that I can see laser scorch marks on (such as spars) but I haven't received a link yet. I'm wondering if it's just me or if anyone else has had similar issues and have figured out a resolution. Thanks!
Where is that YouTube video? I couldn't find anything like that just now.
This. A lot of us know these folks, they are really good people. Fair to say we're all hoping they push through this as quickly as possible. Not only for you guys that are affected by these parts but for Vans as well. Nobody wins if Vans looses.
On the other side of this, Vans will be made better by it, meaning we'll all get to benefit from the lessons learned.
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SwissVolts
Member
I think the video is this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j73qm1bXW9g
For those of you who don't currently have an LCP construction problem, but defend Vans to the death, I have something to suggest.
Instead of saying how good LCP are and supporting the engineers' test results, why not organize a fundraiser?
We are almost 34 thousand members in the forum. If half of us made a small contribution, maybe 300 dollars? It would be a help of more than 5 million for Vans.
$300 is nothing to most of us and nothing compared to the problem we affected builders have. But I'm almost sure that almost no one would collaborate. Maybe I'm wrong.
If it seems like a bad idea to you, it seems worse to me to have to pay twice for the same parts or settle for LCP on my plane.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j73qm1bXW9g
For those of you who don't currently have an LCP construction problem, but defend Vans to the death, I have something to suggest.
Instead of saying how good LCP are and supporting the engineers' test results, why not organize a fundraiser?
We are almost 34 thousand members in the forum. If half of us made a small contribution, maybe 300 dollars? It would be a help of more than 5 million for Vans.
$300 is nothing to most of us and nothing compared to the problem we affected builders have. But I'm almost sure that almost no one would collaborate. Maybe I'm wrong.
If it seems like a bad idea to you, it seems worse to me to have to pay twice for the same parts or settle for LCP on my plane.
Yes it is a MASSIVE issue. However it got that way because not a soul was looking at thousands of parts to see if they were exactly what THEY were paying for. Don’t forget the RV builders brought this to their attention. Dimes to donuts they’d still be laser cutting all these part’s including red/yellow because no one receiving these parts thought all the burn and splatter marks were concerning, and the money is good doing it.
If I have to pay twice for some blue and green parts, it's no big deal. I'd rather do that than have no ability to get parts later on if Vans closes shop.
I estimate the cost of my finished airplane at around $250,000. Another $20,000 in tooling, supplies and hangar mods. If I have to pay $1,000 for replacement LCP's, that's 0.4% of the overall project cost. Couple months worth of fuel?
I'm not defining Vans to the death. Just trying to be reasonable, understanding, patient and respectful. I'm also trying to support the company and hard working employees that allow me to build what are arguably the finest kit built airplanes money can buy.
This comment is a bit absurd. I have 50k in Vans parts, I am not donating and taking a write-off?
And selling doesnt make much sense. Also a massive loss. Who would buy a kit with tons of rework needed for a reasonable price?
+1. A reasonable response.
Vans could take a write off too, actually a loss which is better than a write off
Absurd is 160+ pages of complaints and 'wants'....
SwissVolts
Member
It is absurd to spend the money I have spent to not receive a single sorry in the email. To not receive any response, any proposal, Nor accept the cancellation of the order! Nothing is nothing.
Many people do not fix their LCP problem with 1000 dollars.
I have 3 kits completely paid for.
Tail kit in my possession, which I can't start building due to LCP.
Waiting for a Wings Kit that should have arrived in August.
Waiting for a QB Fuselage that should have arrived in August.
More than 3 months without receiving a response to my emails.
So, I write that I want to cancel my order. I don't receive a response.
Two weeks later I receive an email, my wing kit is ready to ship!
The wing kit and QB fuselage are supposed to arrive in the same shipment but they don't give me information about the QB fuselage. They tell me to write to a certain email to ask about my QB fuselage, but no one answers...
I'm not going to accept the wing kit without knowing when I can get my LCP-free QB fuselage, or without knowing if they would trade it for a slow-build one. I simply need Vans to contact me to reach an agreement, I am open to different options, but this is not happening!
When I lose patience and want to cancel the order, they don't give me the option either, so what should I do? Continue to be patient?
Should I pay for LCP parts? OK. Should I pay very expensive double shipping? OK. Do I pay +20K for a QB fuselage that I may not see for years? No thanks, everything has a limit.
You have two alternatives. Be patient or let this situation consume you. I chose the former.
rocketman1988
Well Known Member
Yeah, and I didn't mean to sound condescending to folks who are really upset. They have EVERY reason to be upset. But, if Vans isn't replying to somebody's emails and phone calls and we get no updates on their website or here, there is NOTHING else we can do but wait.
Getting all worked up accomplishes nothing other than raising your blood pressure. I retired so I didn't have to worry about my blood pressure
Let's see, I think I'll call Vans today knowing they won't answer. Then I'll spend an hour drafting an email to them knowing that won't get answered. After that I'll go on VAF and spend a couple hours re-posting the same comments that have been posted a gazillion times. Orrrrrrrrrr, I can sit outside and enjoy an iced tea while I listen to birds chirp.
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Considering there are HUNDREDS of posts in this thread and others as well as hundreds of posts on other social media platforms, I'm pretty sure Vans knows how we feel and I'm pretty sure they understood that back in July.
SwissVolts
Member
Right now I have not made any and I have made all the decisions at the same time. I have made a quantum decision I better take it with humor...
If Vans contacts me and says:
1. We cancel your order and refund your money. Even if I lose some money I would gladly accept it.
2. Don't worry, you will receive a QB Fuselage (LCP free) in 6 months, or in 1 year! I will also be happy to accept.
3. You can change your QB fuselage for a slow build one, because the waiting time for QB is much longer than 1 year. I will also be happy to accept.
What I will not accept is that they try to sell me an LCP fuselage. I will not accept that in any way.
I don't think I'm such a demanding client, I'm open to different reasonable options!
I have a small business in Switzerland and for me, my clients come first. I can't imagine ignoring my clients for months under any circumstances, especially after they pay a lot of money. Maybe I'm a weirdo
I better take it with humor...If Vans contacts me and says:
1. We cancel your order and refund your money. Even if I lose some money I would gladly accept it.
2. Don't worry, you will receive a QB Fuselage (LCP free) in 6 months, or in 1 year! I will also be happy to accept.
3. You can change your QB fuselage for a slow build one, because the waiting time for QB is much longer than 1 year. I will also be happy to accept.
What I will not accept is that they try to sell me an LCP fuselage. I will not accept that in any way.
I don't think I'm such a demanding client, I'm open to different reasonable options!
I have a small business in Switzerland and for me, my clients come first. I can't imagine ignoring my clients for months under any circumstances, especially after they pay a lot of money. Maybe I'm a weirdo
I can't imagine ignoring my clients for months under any circumstances, especially after they pay a lot of money. Maybe I'm a weirdo
Hah! With this, I totally agree. The one thing that upsets me more than anything else is the lack of communication. I don't expect returned phone calls or emails which is why I haven't bothered sending any. They probably have hundreds of emails and phone messages to work through. Total waste of time using those avenues.
BUT, it takes very little effort to do a simple update. As I said when this LCP issue first hit, the one thing Vans should be doing is weekly updates - at a minimum. The update can even say - "nothing new to report this week". This ONE simple thing would make a huge difference! Thats the one and only thing I'm disappointed about. I think Vans is doing a great job otherwise.
Please read the posting rules again.
I’m getting *VERY* close to locking this thread and banning a couple of posters for repeated posting rules violations. I honestly can't remember the last time I had to lock a non-scammer account - it's been quite a long time. But I'm ready to do it. Also, those posting w/o listing their name or builder number should expect much less latitude if there is any grey area (it’s discussed in the rules). https://vansairforce.net/rules.htm
Pay special attention to the two sections titled "Posts that will be deleted 100% of the time" and "RE: Anonymity".
The LCP situation is lousy for everyone involved, and I feel horrible for those folks, but the same ~10 people complaining in my online living room 24/7 isn’t doing any good either. Maybe my site isn’t for you if you’re the type that needs to complain day and night - there are plenty of alternatives online for you to vent on. Hundreds of thousands of them actually, and a lot of those alternatives thrive on 24/7 complaining. You might be happier there.
Again, and I'm not mincing words, I’m VERY close to locking this thread and banning some accounts that will not follow the rules - my patience is running out.
.... when ignoring the posting rules as a guest here in my virtual living room, and again, I would recommend you read every word of them. Here is the link again: https://vansairforce.net/rules.htm
Here is the latest info from the factory - you know what I know:
https://www.vansaircraft.com/2023/0...impled-hole-cracking-on-some-laser-cut-parts/
I promise you when I have more info it will be posted both here and on the front page as soon as I can get to a computer.
v/r,dr
I’m getting *VERY* close to locking this thread and banning a couple of posters for repeated posting rules violations. I honestly can't remember the last time I had to lock a non-scammer account - it's been quite a long time. But I'm ready to do it. Also, those posting w/o listing their name or builder number should expect much less latitude if there is any grey area (it’s discussed in the rules). https://vansairforce.net/rules.htm
Pay special attention to the two sections titled "Posts that will be deleted 100% of the time" and "RE: Anonymity".
The LCP situation is lousy for everyone involved, and I feel horrible for those folks, but the same ~10 people complaining in my online living room 24/7 isn’t doing any good either. Maybe my site isn’t for you if you’re the type that needs to complain day and night - there are plenty of alternatives online for you to vent on. Hundreds of thousands of them actually, and a lot of those alternatives thrive on 24/7 complaining. You might be happier there.
Again, and I'm not mincing words, I’m VERY close to locking this thread and banning some accounts that will not follow the rules - my patience is running out.
Proceed.
With.
Caution.
With.
Caution.
.... when ignoring the posting rules as a guest here in my virtual living room, and again, I would recommend you read every word of them. Here is the link again: https://vansairforce.net/rules.htm
Here is the latest info from the factory - you know what I know:
https://www.vansaircraft.com/2023/0...impled-hole-cracking-on-some-laser-cut-parts/
I promise you when I have more info it will be posted both here and on the front page as soon as I can get to a computer.
v/r,dr
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wirejock
Well Known Member
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Thanks Doug. Having been a LONG time user of the forums, your patience with this thread has been remarkable. All things must come to an end at some point.
[ed. Thank you, Greg. I’ve spent dozens of hours over the past months trying to come up with a way to strike the right balance of letting folks vent (understandable) and enforcing the rules. I think everyone who wanted to vent had plenty of time. It’s painful for all involved and I’m hoping for the best solution with the least expense and time. A daunting task for sure. Again, thanks (and I’m expecting some emails that won’t be too pleasant….it comes with the territory).
v/r,dr]
[ed. Thank you, Greg. I’ve spent dozens of hours over the past months trying to come up with a way to strike the right balance of letting folks vent (understandable) and enforcing the rules. I think everyone who wanted to vent had plenty of time. It’s painful for all involved and I’m hoping for the best solution with the least expense and time. A daunting task for sure. Again, thanks (and I’m expecting some emails that won’t be too pleasant….it comes with the territory).
v/r,dr]
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PilotjohnS
Well Known Member
Like to help
I would like to help.
Once the new parts are available from Vans, I would like to help a new builder replace the parts in their quick build kit.
I figure if a bunch of us repeat offenders could offer up a few weekends, we could do a lot of kit rebuilds in a short time. Maybe borrow a hangar somewhere in a central part of country. Heck, repeat offenders usually have an efficient way to get there.
I would like to help.
Once the new parts are available from Vans, I would like to help a new builder replace the parts in their quick build kit.
I figure if a bunch of us repeat offenders could offer up a few weekends, we could do a lot of kit rebuilds in a short time. Maybe borrow a hangar somewhere in a central part of country. Heck, repeat offenders usually have an efficient way to get there.
Count me in, too!
Good on ya, John!
I will offer the same in the DFW area. I will help you replace parts in your kit if you need help and are in the DFW area. Reach out when you need me.
v/r,dr
Good on ya, John!
I will offer the same in the DFW area. I will help you replace parts in your kit if you need help and are in the DFW area. Reach out when you need me.
v/r,dr
rjcthree
Well Known Member
I’m looking at it differently
Flip side of the coin….for me, I’m about to be in the market for an -8 QB fuse, this is an opportunity. I’ll do the rework if the business proposition is right. I’ll even save them/ us shipping…I’m sure there are going to be reworkable QBs all over the county. The price and part support has to be right, but I’m a builder. I think we can do this.
Flip side of the coin….for me, I’m about to be in the market for an -8 QB fuse, this is an opportunity. I’ll do the rework if the business proposition is right. I’ll even save them/ us shipping…I’m sure there are going to be reworkable QBs all over the county. The price and part support has to be right, but I’m a builder. I think we can do this.
gtrplaya101
Member
That could be a good idea if Van's wanted to sell off the LCP QB kits to other builders who wanted to "skip" the line and didn't mind the rework. Then the folks who paid for QB kits could get new kits and Vans would have a relatively low cash penalty. I guess the $20,000 question is what would the correct price be? I assume more than just the raw parts but less than the finished QB kit? That seems like a very reasonable win-win for all!
cgarts1
Well Known Member
I'm in as well. QB's for first time builders are the priority and I'm happy to help remove some skins and replace some ribs, etc. A lot can happen in a weekend if organized well.
rocketman1988
Well Known Member
Me Too
Happy to help in the Cincinnati area...
Happy to help in the Cincinnati area...
I created a dedicated thread for this wonderful idea.
Here:
https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=221173
v/r,dr
Here:
https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=221173
v/r,dr
I Am Sticking to My Plan!
I really want to build an RV14A and after months of research and thought I placed an order for all kits. Originally the plan was to receive the first kit Sept/Oct but now not till next summer. I was bummed out because this winter was going to be my first adventure into building an airplane ..oh well…. But wait! By shear chance I came across a person who is in possession of an RV14 empennage kit that he has decided not to build. My winter is looking up! I am now planning a road trip to purchase the, not started, empennage kit, LCPs and all. I am confident that the Vans team will overcome this big bump in the road and I will ultimately get the replacement parts I will need to finish the kit.
Finally I applaud the Vans team on their efforts to work their way through this. I have experienced similar situations and it is very difficult for all involved. I stand by you Vans team!!
I have also added my name to the “I can help” list. There is no Me in Team…..
I really want to build an RV14A and after months of research and thought I placed an order for all kits. Originally the plan was to receive the first kit Sept/Oct but now not till next summer. I was bummed out because this winter was going to be my first adventure into building an airplane ..oh well…. But wait! By shear chance I came across a person who is in possession of an RV14 empennage kit that he has decided not to build. My winter is looking up! I am now planning a road trip to purchase the, not started, empennage kit, LCPs and all. I am confident that the Vans team will overcome this big bump in the road and I will ultimately get the replacement parts I will need to finish the kit.
Finally I applaud the Vans team on their efforts to work their way through this. I have experienced similar situations and it is very difficult for all involved. I stand by you Vans team!!
I have also added my name to the “I can help” list. There is no Me in Team…..
Greg (or anyone at Vans),
It has been another two weeks with no updates. Please at least tell your customers who are waiting for parts and answers to questions what the status is and what has been happening since your last update.
Here are some possible topics:
-When will blue parts on the portal get a price?
-When will parts on the portal become an order?
-The LCP list states that Vans will replace some aluminum parts damaged in the repair process, how does a customer designate that on the portal?
-When will replacement parts be shipped?
-What is the plan for those who ordered/received QB kits?
-If Vans has been working on production of replacement parts since July are these being stockpiled for portal orders? Can any of them be shipped now?
I'm not asking for all the answers, but anything is better than nothing right now.
It has been another two weeks with no updates. Please at least tell your customers who are waiting for parts and answers to questions what the status is and what has been happening since your last update.
Here are some possible topics:
-When will blue parts on the portal get a price?
-When will parts on the portal become an order?
-The LCP list states that Vans will replace some aluminum parts damaged in the repair process, how does a customer designate that on the portal?
-When will replacement parts be shipped?
-What is the plan for those who ordered/received QB kits?
-If Vans has been working on production of replacement parts since July are these being stockpiled for portal orders? Can any of them be shipped now?
I'm not asking for all the answers, but anything is better than nothing right now.
Just a reminder to everyone ... I'm not sure it's clear so let's get it out there again ...
This forum is NOT affiliated with Vans Aircraft, it's NOT an official company forum, it's an independent forum owned and operated by Doug Reeves.
Asking questions here (or addressing Vans employees directly) like you're talking to Vans Aircraft isn't going to get you any answers unless they decide to visit, which they do from time to time, but by no means are they required to ever check these threads.
Sometimes the lines seem blurry because we're all in a small tight nit community and a lot of us are friends but a lot of these direct questions need to go to them.
This forum is NOT affiliated with Vans Aircraft, it's NOT an official company forum, it's an independent forum owned and operated by Doug Reeves.
Asking questions here (or addressing Vans employees directly) like you're talking to Vans Aircraft isn't going to get you any answers unless they decide to visit, which they do from time to time, but by no means are they required to ever check these threads.
Sometimes the lines seem blurry because we're all in a small tight nit community and a lot of us are friends but a lot of these direct questions need to go to them.
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Valid, but this entire thread was started by Greg VP Vans Aircraft. Not a stretch that people think it’s a way to communicate directly. I’d say it doesn’t entirely fit that mold you’re describing.
[ed. Greg started the thread here because I asked him to - it was a duplicate of what was on their website. Kindest, Doug.]
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gtrplaya101
Member
I think people are trying to reach out to Greg here because it's the only medium where Vans has had any response that wasn't a "formal" statement. People are getting desperate and I think trying to reach Greg is just a natural response to wanting to be heard. I think once Vans fixes their communication problem people will begin to feel at ease and general attitudes will turn around restoring peace throughout the galaxy. Sadly I think a lot of the hostility and bad attitudes exhibited here are byproducts of the communication void. VAF has been a victim of collateral damage in a sense.
2theskyy
Well Known Member
No one answered calls or emails from vans so I came to VAF for the first time to find any info on LCP’s. Well, I found it and it consumed me way too much. I thank Vaf for making me realize my only answer was to purchase my lcp parts for a second time and let vans know I did so in hopes they make it right for those more affected than myself. I wish all the best to QB and built kit owners. Vans has large challenges and is not the same company as the RV3 days. We all hope they find their way.
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I would agree with this 100%. The lack of communication has bred hostility and unfortunately with this being the only medium that we feel Van’s Aircraft might be monitoring, VAF has been caught in the crosshairs and affected in a negative way.
I’ve learned a lot about Van’s Aircraft and VAF throughout this whole ordeal.
A message to our host
Doug,
I feel your issues regarding the unproductive complaining seen on this thread and appreciate you needing to do what is right for your site and your brand. However, please let me add some food for thought.
Vans has dealt themselves a tough hand here and numerous members here are left to deal with the consequences for their own projects. While there is no need to provide them with a forum to gripe and moan, they DO NEED an outlet to share info and progress. No intent to throw stones here, but Vans is doing a relatively poor job in managing the communications around this problem. Updates seems quite rare and if the posters can be believed, they are also refusing to reply to calls or emails around this subject. There is also anecdotal evidence to suggest the policies outlined early in this issue are possibly changing or at least under review. At least no obvious reassurance that it is not. This leaves a significant void for a lot of the affected customers. I believe many can benefit from learning about responses that are given to the select few that do receive them and you would be doing them a service by keeping that channel open. Sadly, due to Vans decision on how to approach this problem, speculation and conjecture seem to be the only avenue to enlightenment.
At the moment I struggle to see how you do that and keep the chronic complainers in check. But IMHO, the vast majority are best served if you or we can find a way to do that. Don't know much about your hosting capabilities, but maybe just ban certain members here from posting on just this thread; I speculate that this is not their typical persona and just overcome with frustration that they can't seem to vent in other ways. That would allow them to learn about progress, but limit their ability to add their opinions that violate your guidelines
Another alternative is an open letter to either Greg, Rian or Richard. This community is by far the largest influencer in the Vans universe. I can't imagine anyone considering a purchase of a Vans kit doesn't wind up here for the bulk of their research. Maybe you can create a thread where we can collaborate on a letter that outlines the general issues, concerns and frustrations felt by the Vans customer base along with a statement of what this community needs to feel comfortable in managing this crisis. Not a list of demands, but a reasonable request for better information, along with some insight into the frustrations felt. I want vans to succeed and be around long term. I can't help but worry that all of this negativity is going to hurt their reputation. Maybe a nudge will help them see that or at least recognize the risk.
Thanks once again for all of your efforts to make and keep VAF a special place that adds value for it's members. [ed. Thank you sir! v/r,dr]
Larry
Doug,
I feel your issues regarding the unproductive complaining seen on this thread and appreciate you needing to do what is right for your site and your brand. However, please let me add some food for thought.
Vans has dealt themselves a tough hand here and numerous members here are left to deal with the consequences for their own projects. While there is no need to provide them with a forum to gripe and moan, they DO NEED an outlet to share info and progress. No intent to throw stones here, but Vans is doing a relatively poor job in managing the communications around this problem. Updates seems quite rare and if the posters can be believed, they are also refusing to reply to calls or emails around this subject. There is also anecdotal evidence to suggest the policies outlined early in this issue are possibly changing or at least under review. At least no obvious reassurance that it is not. This leaves a significant void for a lot of the affected customers. I believe many can benefit from learning about responses that are given to the select few that do receive them and you would be doing them a service by keeping that channel open. Sadly, due to Vans decision on how to approach this problem, speculation and conjecture seem to be the only avenue to enlightenment.
At the moment I struggle to see how you do that and keep the chronic complainers in check. But IMHO, the vast majority are best served if you or we can find a way to do that. Don't know much about your hosting capabilities, but maybe just ban certain members here from posting on just this thread; I speculate that this is not their typical persona and just overcome with frustration that they can't seem to vent in other ways. That would allow them to learn about progress, but limit their ability to add their opinions that violate your guidelines
Another alternative is an open letter to either Greg, Rian or Richard. This community is by far the largest influencer in the Vans universe. I can't imagine anyone considering a purchase of a Vans kit doesn't wind up here for the bulk of their research. Maybe you can create a thread where we can collaborate on a letter that outlines the general issues, concerns and frustrations felt by the Vans customer base along with a statement of what this community needs to feel comfortable in managing this crisis. Not a list of demands, but a reasonable request for better information, along with some insight into the frustrations felt. I want vans to succeed and be around long term. I can't help but worry that all of this negativity is going to hurt their reputation. Maybe a nudge will help them see that or at least recognize the risk.
Thanks once again for all of your efforts to make and keep VAF a special place that adds value for it's members. [ed. Thank you sir! v/r,dr]
Larry
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ccarlson
Well Known Member
Thank you, Doug
For what it is worth, I am glad you asked Greg to post, and I greatly thank you for doing so. I also thank you for keeping this thread open even though it has departed from controlled discussion a few times.
Greg's post was indeed a duplication of what was on Van's website; however, Greg went on to answer questions from some folks here as well. At that point, this VAF thread became a sort of defacto conduit for many of us who have attempted to contact Van's without success.
I have sent multiple emails and made a few phone calls to Van's over the past 4 months, and not one has been answered or returned. As odd as it may sound to some, VAF is literally the *only* source of information that assures me that Van's Aircraft is still in operation.
I have been following VAF for more than 25 years while working to save for and plan my RV build. In fact, I have met and conversed with many of the key players here in real life several times at OSH (Doug, Vic, Greg, Rian) precisely because of things I have learned here on VAF. Anyway, I know this thread is not a reflection of your vision for VAF, but I appreciate you giving it the excess latitude and grace, and I hope you will continue to do so until there is either a.) a proper resolution to all of the open and dubious aspects of the LCP issue (QB plans, blue/green costs, shipping costs), or b.) Van's opens up a comparable conduit where customers may obtain timely and consistent responses to their questions and concerns.
Thanks again, Doug. [ed. Thank you sir! v/r,dr]
For what it is worth, I am glad you asked Greg to post, and I greatly thank you for doing so. I also thank you for keeping this thread open even though it has departed from controlled discussion a few times.
Greg's post was indeed a duplication of what was on Van's website; however, Greg went on to answer questions from some folks here as well. At that point, this VAF thread became a sort of defacto conduit for many of us who have attempted to contact Van's without success.
I have sent multiple emails and made a few phone calls to Van's over the past 4 months, and not one has been answered or returned. As odd as it may sound to some, VAF is literally the *only* source of information that assures me that Van's Aircraft is still in operation.
I have been following VAF for more than 25 years while working to save for and plan my RV build. In fact, I have met and conversed with many of the key players here in real life several times at OSH (Doug, Vic, Greg, Rian) precisely because of things I have learned here on VAF. Anyway, I know this thread is not a reflection of your vision for VAF, but I appreciate you giving it the excess latitude and grace, and I hope you will continue to do so until there is either a.) a proper resolution to all of the open and dubious aspects of the LCP issue (QB plans, blue/green costs, shipping costs), or b.) Van's opens up a comparable conduit where customers may obtain timely and consistent responses to their questions and concerns.
Thanks again, Doug. [ed. Thank you sir! v/r,dr]
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dmattmul
Well Known Member
Might be a good plan
Hopefully you are getting what you want but it’s very possible Vans will never give you non LCP’s for the green LCP’s and maybe have you pay for blue LCP’s in the future or else tell you to use them as they are “acceptable for use” and never offer to replace or replace at a date much in the future. Since empennage kits with LCP’s are being sold heavily discounted maybe the plan is to rebuild the entire tail kit sometime in the future with non LCP’s, learning from the process. The value of a finished airframe with LCP’s (other than green LCP’s) in the future would take a serious hit so I’m sure there will be very few completed airframes out there with blue LCP’s.
Hopefully you will find something to build in the winter and good luck !!
Hopefully you are getting what you want but it’s very possible Vans will never give you non LCP’s for the green LCP’s and maybe have you pay for blue LCP’s in the future or else tell you to use them as they are “acceptable for use” and never offer to replace or replace at a date much in the future. Since empennage kits with LCP’s are being sold heavily discounted maybe the plan is to rebuild the entire tail kit sometime in the future with non LCP’s, learning from the process. The value of a finished airframe with LCP’s (other than green LCP’s) in the future would take a serious hit so I’m sure there will be very few completed airframes out there with blue LCP’s.
Hopefully you will find something to build in the winter and good luck !!
The most vocal on this issue are those unwilling to accept LCPs. That does not necessarily make them the majority
. I, for one, have decided to accept my wing ribs being LCPs, rather than have to remove every single wing rivet, which would surely be worse.
TenJax
Member
My replacement parts just arrived. I had ordered horizontal stab ribs and nose ribs that were laser cut to begin with. It was keeping me from moving forward with building. The parts are all wrapped in blue and only too 2 weeks from the time the order was placed.
I figure, sure wish vans would get on the ball , but I’d like to get building. So if I gotta pay for the parts as I go to keep making progress, sucks to be me, but I’m building.
Hopefully anything in buy will be refunded later when the planned parts arrive, but I’m not gonna lose sleep over it.
Good luck with your builds
I figure, sure wish vans would get on the ball , but I’d like to get building. So if I gotta pay for the parts as I go to keep making progress, sucks to be me, but I’m building.
Hopefully anything in buy will be refunded later when the planned parts arrive, but I’m not gonna lose sleep over it.
Good luck with your builds
I have just been reading the RV-10 Facebook group and there's an update there from one of the members that says the following
Quick Build Fuselage & Wings (non LCP) update:
Just spoke with a lady in Vans logistics team. She mentioned that new QB kits with non-LCP parts were dispatched a few weeks ago to QB facilities. It’s typically a 110 day turn around time. 40+40 days in travel and 30 days build time per kit.
Each container sent overseas has enough parts for dozen of qb kits. Each container coming back has 20 QB’s. And typically 10 containers come back at a time.
She also mentioned that those QB purchasers who are not comfortable with any LCP parts in their QB’s, will be given an option to get the new (non-LCP) QB’s when they arrive later this year.
Lastly, she also mentioned that QB’s sitting in their warehouse will be repaired inhouse; did not have an estimate on that.
Vans will start calling people in a few weeks about these options.
So we may see some traction on this issue soon hopefully - yay!!!
Quick Build Fuselage & Wings (non LCP) update:
Just spoke with a lady in Vans logistics team. She mentioned that new QB kits with non-LCP parts were dispatched a few weeks ago to QB facilities. It’s typically a 110 day turn around time. 40+40 days in travel and 30 days build time per kit.
Each container sent overseas has enough parts for dozen of qb kits. Each container coming back has 20 QB’s. And typically 10 containers come back at a time.
She also mentioned that those QB purchasers who are not comfortable with any LCP parts in their QB’s, will be given an option to get the new (non-LCP) QB’s when they arrive later this year.
Lastly, she also mentioned that QB’s sitting in their warehouse will be repaired inhouse; did not have an estimate on that.
Vans will start calling people in a few weeks about these options.
So we may see some traction on this issue soon hopefully - yay!!!
Did you order these because you prefer to repair the parts rather than order a new empennage ?
I am still trying to figure out what to do - should I just bite the bullet and buy a new emp kit or wait for the replacement parts and take the chance pulling it apart that I will end up with a good finish for the product
What was you decision criteria for this ?
- Status
