Factory Info: Parts with Laser Cut Holes and Potential for Cracks

[gotyoke]

I am one who reported my cracked riveted dimpled holes to Van's a few weeks back. Though I have not yet been contacted directly, I take these updates on VAF and the Van's site as a great sign that my concerns will ultimately be addressed to my satisfaction. I don't even have any lingering questions while I await further instructions, so the communication is working well for me.

My -14A emp kit predated the timeframe indicated, thankfully, as did the vast majority of parts for my wing kit. A couple dozen wing kit parts that were on backorder at the time of crating came to me months later and included laser-cut parts, principally ribs. The holes in those ribs looked wonderful, so I am rather confident that whether a part has laser-cut holes is NOT the be-all and end-all as to whether there is a safety concern, but a combination of factors.

The notches in laser-cut holes only started to become evident in my fuselage kit, crated end of year 2022. I already had to replace two seat ribs due to the cracks and will very likely have to replace my aft gear brace assembly, which is a bummer since I will have to drill out several dozen AN426AD4 rivets out of the bottom skin--a little scary. I have bulkhead side channels that are laser-cut with notches that, post-dimple/pre-rivet don't look too bad but may be up for drilling out and replacement.

In a weird way, not working on my fuse for three months this winter may end up saving me time and headache, as by now I'd have surely put to use many more of the notched laser-cut holes still left in my fuse kit.

 

[kingand]

In case it helps others, I figured I would share a bit more examples about this problem and what to look for.

I just completed an inventory of all the laser-cut parts in my 2022 RV-14 empennage kit. With the exception of the rudder that is, since I completed it (and primed it all) before knowing to look for this issue.

My kit was ordered in February 2022 and shipped at the end of October 2022 with many parts left on back order and not delivered entirely until June 2023.

What I discovered is that almost every single laser-cut part has issues.

However, the laser-cut parts manufactured in Spring 2022 (March-May) are really not all that bad. There are examples of notches in the holes, but they are minor and I am still on the fence as to whether or not they can be cleaned up enough to be safe.

On the other hand, the laser-cut parts manufactured in Fall 2022 (Oct-Dec) are absolutely horrible and frankly a complete embarrassment to think Van's shipped these.

I'm sorry say that, because I really do love the company and the product, but I sincerely do not understand how these parts made it through QC checks. I suspect it's simply a matter of being rushed with too many orders to fulfill. As soon as you know what to look for, you find nearly every flange hole (in the parts mfg'd Oct-Dec 2022) has some sort of defect (mostly burning and notching), and the notches are far too deep to clean up safely.

Live and learn, I suppose, but if I knew to look this carefully when doing inventory, I would have rejected 38 parts! I'll be sending my list to Van's support to see what the next step is towards getting these parts replaced.

One interesting correlation I noticed was that the Al-Clad parts are the worst. I'm by no means an expert on this subject, but I wonder if the reflectivity of the material has some impact on how clean the laser can cut.

I am attaching a Google Photos album with some examples of what I found. You'll notice that the first set of pictures have uneven holes with some minor notches, but nothing too horrible. However, the later pictures in the album (particularly those of the fuselage tail cone bulkheads) show just how bad some of these parts really are.

I hope this helps other builders learn what to look out for.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/bj3roBrBCRX2DdCB9

 

[lappadoodle42]

Thanks for posting those pics. I’ve completed my Vert Stab and Rudder but count 71 laser cut parts for the remainder of the empennage. Some look quite good and are even hard to tell that they were laser cut but I definitely have examples that match your worse examples. My kit is only a month old, most parts laser cut late 2022 and appears every part that could be laser cut, was.

Trying to be patient. I know it’s a huge undertaking to test these parts. Not knowing what will come of the completed assemblies I already have, I think I would prefer to rebuild them completely with parts that I nor a potential future owner will lack trust in. Hoping that will be an option on the table.

 

[airguy]

Wow. That's moderately awful. I would certainly not accept those parts and I'll be putting a 10X loupe on my RV10 parts.

Vans is to be commended for grabbing this issue by the horns and wrestling it down, but I do intend to hold them to the promise of acceptable parts.

 

[DanH]

Let's chill a bit and let the folks in Aurora catch up with hard info.

 

[rocketman1988]

AGREE

Let's chill a bit and let the folks in Aurora catch up with hard info.

Agree 100%

 

[kingand]

Let's chill a bit and let the folks in Aurora catch up with hard info.

If this is too much info from you, you can simply ignore my post. I thought it would help other builders know what to look for. I'm sorry for sharing my findings?

You'll have to forgive me and others for worrying a bit about this. Every single passenger I have ever flown in a single-engine aircraft has been worried about "what if the engine dies," and my answer is that we just glide to a landing. Of course, that assumes the structure holds up. If the structure fails, there is no out -- we're dead. So, I want to be absolutely certain I'm not using faulty parts.

I do think that Van's will do the right thing here and stand by their customers. The company does a great job communicating and has a stellar track record with quality and safety.

Please keep in mind that even yesterday's update suggests that customers will need to self-report parts where they have concerns. I don't see any issue with fellow builders sharing what we have found to help each other identify what to report in addition to the guidance we expect to receive soon from Van's.

 

[bertschb]

You'll have to forgive me and others for worrying a bit about this.

I think everybody who is affected by this is worried about it. I'm one of them. Vans knows we have some laser cut parts with jagged holes that can crack when dimpled. We already have posts in multipole threads here as well as multiple YouTube videos showing this. I'm not on Facebook but I'm guessing this issue is covered at length there as well.

If a bunch of us contact Vans with questions and concerns before we even get the official email from them explaining what our options are, it will just further delay getting replacement parts.

I think what some folks here are suggesting is we just give Vans some time to work through the complicated process of addressing this problem. There are dozens of different scenarios they need to plan for. They also need to spend some extra time writing a carefully worded email that will answer as many questions as possible so their support staff aren't buried with phone calls afterwards.

We all need Vans support but Vans needs our support as well.

I agree with @DanH - let's chill....

 

[KatanaPilot]

Don't blame you at all

If this is too much info from you, you can simply ignore my post. I thought it would help other builders know what to look for. I'm sorry for sharing my findings?

You'll have to forgive me and others for worrying a bit about this. Every single passenger I have ever flown in a single-engine aircraft has been worried about "what if the engine dies," and my answer is that we just glide to a landing. Of course, that assumes the structure holds up. If the structure fails, there is no out -- we're dead. So, I want to be absolutely certain I'm not using faulty parts.

I do think that Van's will do the right thing here and stand by their customers. The company does a great job communicating and has a stellar track record with quality and safety.

Please keep in mind that even yesterday's update suggests that customers will need to self-report parts where they have concerns. I don't see any issue with fellow builders sharing what we have found to help each other identify what to report in addition to the guidance we expect to receive soon from Van's.

I don't blame you one bit for being concerned. It's easy for folks with long-finished airplanes to suggest chilling out about this, but those with recently completed or under construction planes have pretty good justification for being uneasy.

A friend sent over pictures yesterday of RV10/14 fuel tank ribs that have scorch marks. I just built ER tanks and had a moment of panic until I saw what these parts looked like - it would be hard to miss the defects. Once the tanks are built though, cracked dimpled holes would be covered with proseal and hard to inspect.

You have to wonder about a new builder with little experience and exposure to proper parts - how many have missed the bulletins or read about this issue on VAF?

Two big QC misses by Van's in the past couple of years - maybe a good time to slow down the growth and improve internal processes? No doubt it will eventually be made right, but these are expensive mistakes that possibly could have been avoided.

 

[jrs14855]

Laser

In the certified world laser on aluminum would only be allowed if the material in the heat affected zone was subsequently removed by mechanical means which eliminates "drilling" of small diameter holes using laser.

 

[MekMouse]

Not just Al

In the certified world laser on aluminum would only be allowed if the material in the heat affected zone was subsequently removed by mechanical means which eliminates "drilling" of small diameter holes using laser.

That goes the same for the exotic alloys also. Used to work for an aviation supplier that only deals with the exotics. Anything that was laser cut/punched was also drilled, milled or filed to remove the Heat Affected Zone (HAZ). You can go through a lot of drill bits final size drilling Inconel and Titanium parts.

 

[1001001]

A friend sent over pictures yesterday of RV10/14 fuel tank ribs that have scorch marks. I just built ER tanks and had a moment of panic until I saw what these parts looked like - it would be hard to miss the defects. Once the tanks are built though, cracked dimpled holes would be covered with proseal and hard to inspect.

After reading your post I took a very close look at the ribs I bought for my ER tanks--received them last year but due to life happening, hadn't started on building them until this week.

They sure look like they have notches in the rivet holes and possible scorch marks in the vicinity.

 

[auburnaviator]

After reading your post I took a very close look at the ribs I bought for my ER tanks--received them last year but due to life happening, hadn't started on building them until this week.

They sure look like they have notches in the rivet holes and possible scorch marks in the vicinity.

Did they have the blue film on them? If so they definitely were not laser cut. Other than that the best thing to do is probably wait for Vans to release their list of affected parts. Good luck.

 

[1001001]

Did they have the blue film on them? If so they definitely were not laser cut. Other than that the best thing to do is probably wait for Vans to release their list of affected parts. Good luck.

They do not.

 

[1001001]

Did they have the blue film on them? If so they definitely were not laser cut. Other than that the best thing to do is probably wait for Vans to release their list of affected parts. Good luck.

I have detailed photos of the rivet holes and other cuts in several ribs that to me look like they show discontinuities ("notches") in the circumference of the holes, as well as possible scorch marks. If anyone is interested in seeing what they look like, I'll post them here, or put them on my build blog.

 

[inktomi]

Just curious - I have a trip up to Synergy planed in August to build an empennage - has anyone heard from Vans yet on any potential timelines? I know I'll at least need new spars... and probably they won't be available for me by mid-august - but I'd like official word before I cancel airfare, hotels, etc etc.

 

[lappadoodle42]

Vans Provided Update Today: https://www.vansaircraft.com/2023/0...impled-hole-cracking-on-some-laser-cut-parts/

Also, published list of parts and testing status: https://www.vansaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Laser-Cut-Parts-Customer-List-Revision-1.pdf

 

[Derek.plough]

Wow, I’m at a loss for words after seeing that update and that list.

 

[PaulvS]

Wow, I’m at a loss for words after seeing that update and that list.

It sure IS complex and everyone's going to need to be patient!

 

[erikhasse]

For parts that are listed as "replace" (or will be listed that way in the future) what is Van's doing about already assembled components? I'm thinking especially about control surface spars where even if disassembly is feasible, the rolled leading edges would make it very difficult to reuse the components. I really don't think it's unreasonable for a full replacement in these cases if they're truly a safety-of-flight issue.

The tiny size of these cracks also makes inspection very difficult if not impossible. I found some cracks on my wing ribs, but I can't get a picture of them with a modern phone camera. So trying to inspect for cracks with a borescope is going to be effectively hopeless.

 

[bertschb]

For parts that are listed as "replace" (or will be listed that way in the future) what is Van's doing about already assembled components?

Posted on Vans website today (link in post #67 above):

"Note that Van’s will be issuing more formal instructions for the assessment of parts both before and after assembly in the future."

 

[greghughespdx]

Sorry I’m slow posting about the update here today. Had a couple family things to tend to for a bit after we published the update, and I see some others are already aware and posting here.

I’ll take a look at the comments and questions here and try to provide a few answers where I can. We are reading here of course, and we will be continuing to do so.

Thanks everyone.

 

[Cessnadog]

For parts that are listed as "replace" (or will be listed that way in the future) what is Van's doing about already assembled components? I'm thinking especially about control surface spars where even if disassembly is feasible, the rolled leading edges would make it very difficult to reuse the components. I really don't think it's unreasonable for a full replacement in these cases if they're truly a safety-of-flight issue.

The tiny size of these cracks also makes inspection very difficult if not impossible. I found some cracks on my wing ribs, but I can't get a picture of them with a modern phone camera. So trying to inspect for cracks with a borescope is going to be effectively hopeless.

Not only the rolled leading edge, but the front and rear spars need replaced. Remember that the foam wedges are glued into these against the rear spar. I can’t imagine getting it apart and back together in acceptable shape.

Same issue with tanks. If baffles need replaced that would seem to be a complete rebuild.

Also interested to hear the solution to QB wings. Are they going to replace them? Doesn’t seem right to pay for QB then be required to disassemble and rebuild.

Will be interested to see how Van’s deals with this. Trust they will do it right.

 

[Derek.plough]

For parts that are listed as "replace" (or will be listed that way in the future) what is Van's doing about already assembled components? I'm thinking especially about control surface spars where even if disassembly is feasible, the rolled leading edges would make it very difficult to reuse the components. I really don't think it's unreasonable for a full replacement in these cases if they're truly a safety-of-flight issue.

The tiny size of these cracks also makes inspection very difficult if not impossible. I found some cracks on my wing ribs, but I can't get a picture of them with a modern phone camera. So trying to inspect for cracks with a borescope is going to be effectively hopeless.

I 100% agree and feel the same way. I’m just being patient and letting them figure it out for the time being. They’re clearly cramming and doing what they can at the moment and I’m just staying hopeful and putting everything on hold for now.

 

[JeremyL]

A710

Sorry I’m slow posting about the update here today. Had a couple family things to tend to for a bit after we published the update, and I see some others are already aware and posting here.

I’ll take a look at the comments and questions here and try to provide a few answers where I can. We are reading here of course, and we will be continuing to do so.

Thanks everyone.

Greg, thank you! Quick question, I received “A-710” bundle of angle for the aileron stiffeners. They were very much laser cut and very ugly, including the holes. I did not see them listed on the published list. I’m just curious if you were unaware or if they are total non issues? Thanks in advance.

 

[finack]

The tiny size of these cracks also makes inspection very difficult if not impossible. I found some cracks on my wing ribs, but I can't get a picture of them with a modern phone camera. So trying to inspect for cracks with a borescope is going to be effectively hopeless.

That is for sure one of my biggest questions. How do I know if I have a laser part for assembled pieces? As an example getting access to the rudder spar is going to be very tricky with that rolled skin in the way. And as others mention, if it is defective replacing that one part might not be possible without making a mess of so many other parts.

If I do have to replace some of these spars, my first instinct will be to replace that whole sub assembly. On the upside I know I will do it much better this time

 

[bertschb]

On the upside I know I will do it much better this time

Great attitude! I wish I was this upbeat right now.

 

[Bullpup]

Greg,

Thanks for the information and updates. I share many of the other concerns about assemblies such as control surfaces and tanks; I'll standby for further guidance.

One note - at least the RV-8 section seems to include a number of unrelated, RV-9 and RV-14 parts in the empennage section. You may want to check over the affected parts list.

Cheers- Chris

 

[1001001]

I'll just add my voice to the folks commending Van's for their commitment to getting this right, and to communicating honestly and as openly as they can on this.

While it may be a setback for many, it's so, so much better to know the issue exists, and have them support it. Doing right by your customers and their safety is what sets apart the good guys in many industries, including this one.

 

[Flyingtiger88]

Greg, thanks for the updates and making this a priority. Like others have expressed, just replacing the parts in question is only half of the issue. During the time period in question, I received the tail, wings, and fuse kit. Fortunately, only the tail kit is complete. Examining the spars in those tail feathers is almost impossible. And, to replace those parts is going to wreck the other parts. To properly “fix” the potential issue is going to require staring from square one with ALL new parts. For the kits that I haven’t started, only the parts in question could be replaced. I guess I’m lucky that I only have the tail complete. But thinking about redoing the last 7 months is demoralizing to say the least. I have confidence that Vans will do what’s right, but for now “build on!” is on pause!

Kevin
RV14-A Empenage Complete (I thought)

 

[Tlrguy]

Oh my. The list of affected parts is far greater than I thought. Only providing a date which represents when the part first arrived inbound to Vans is pretty useless. I wish I would have taken a picture of every part before I started, but instead I peeled all the blueing right away.

Some of these parts are going to be impossible to determine especially with a nice coat of AKZO over top.

 

[ryan24]

Thanks for the update Greg. I know everyone is concerned here, but the list of RV-8 fuselage parts is almost 2.5 pages long, most of which could be riveted into the QB fuse I just received 2 weeks ago. I’m primarily interested to know what will be the resolution for folks with QB kits that could have these parts throughout…. Very much looking forward to hearing more on this.

Thanks,

Ryan

RV-8 In-Progress

 

[rv8ch]

Oh my. The list of affected parts is far greater than I thought. Only providing a date which represents when the part first arrived inbound to Vans is pretty useless. I wish I would have taken a picture of every part before I started, but instead I peeled all the blueing right away.

Some of these parts are going to be impossible to determine especially with a nice coat of AKZO over top.

From what I've read here, if a part has the blue plastic, it is not affected.

 

[Luckeyone]

QB kits

Expanding on the QB portion of this issue. Is there a way for Vans to determine if laser cut parts were used for a specific QB kit? I have serial and batch numbers for the kits. For example my RV-10 fuselage and wing kits were ordered in Jan of 2021. Fuselage delivered in early 2022 with an inspection date of Jan 11, 2022 so it was completed with parts before laser cutting started but my QB wings, ailerons and flaps were delivered later in the year and have inspection dated in Sept/Oct 2022. Could the parts for the wings etc. have been shipped to EXEMPLAR prior to February of 2022? If so no issue.

Greg, if this is possible then proving a list of QB kits using model, serial and batch numbers would make life a lot simpler to identify the need for inspection for this group of builders.

 

[lr172]

Greg,

I am following this only from the sideline with no dog in this fight. However, I noticed the following in your update

... as the aircraft manufacturer it remains incumbent on you at all times while constructing your airplane to evaluate each part, hole, and rivet as you complete your work. It is the builders’ responsibility to assess each part and make his/her own determination as to the suitability of each part both before and after assembly...

I understand your position here and the legal need to continue to carry this position. With that said, there are some unique aspects here as it is NOT a typical Supplier / Manufacturer relationship. Here, the Manufacturer is an amateur and the supplier is the expert, with the manufacturer relying upon the supplier for expertise in countless different areas, including the expertise on determining whether or not the metallurgical qualities of a part are suitable for the design, which also came from the supplier.

It is apparent that you are taking significant steps to address this issue. However, if this ends with "these parts could be bad and it is up to the builder to decide if in fact they are bad," that will creating MANY issues on many fronts for both Vans and it's customers. I am a big fan of your company and hold you in high regard. I mostly am watching this just to see how you handle it, though I do care about my fellow builders and wish to see this resolved for them.

It would seem to me that Vans will need to make more effort to assist builders with completed component to develop a reasonable inspection plan as well as a remediation plan, as some parts can be a challenge to remove. I certainly hope this is in your plans and suspect that it is. However, I am sure it is on the minds of many builders and feel you should speak to your plans in this area even if you have not had a chance to create them yet. I am sure it will calm many nerves.

If you are going to leave the builder to make these go / no go decisions, we are going to need a lot more data. For example, if the part doesn't crack during either dimpling or riveting, is it considered good, or is there still a risk of cracking down the road. How do I know if the upper dimpled skin is cracked UNDER the rivet head and therefore can't be seen without an xray, etc.

Hopefully that quote was just a legal necessity and not a precursor to how Vans will approach the complexity of this issue. I am probably not the only person that will read it this way and it would be beneficial to clarify Van's position on this.

Let us not forget that many builders did question the parts and reached out to Van's technical support for their expert guidance in the decision to trust and use the part with questionable quality and the answer seems to have been "all is good, not to worry." Unfair to now put that back on the builders shoulders saying it is their fault for accepting and using it. From this point forward, with proper notification, I suppose that is fair position.

Larry

 

[idubrov]

I wonder if it is possible to repair some of the cases by using oversized NAS1241 rivets. Assuming that engineering will come up with some guidance on their applicability at this scale (say, 100% in some assemblies).

Is an additional ~0.016" enough to clean the holes (for final sized holes of RV-10/14? for undersized holes of RV-7/8/9)?

Is a smaller (relatively) head size an issue or not?

 

[maxmirot]

Greg,

I am following this only from the sideline with no dog in this fight. However, I noticed the following in your update



I understand your position here and the legal need to continue to carry this position. With that said, there are some unique aspects here as it is NOT a typical Supplier / Manufacturer relationship. Here, the Manufacturer is an amateur and the supplier is the expert, with the manufacturer relying upon the supplier for expertise in countless different areas, including the expertise on determining whether or not the metallurgical qualities of a part are suitable for the design, which also came from the supplier.

It is apparent that you are taking significant steps to address this issue. However, if this ends with "these parts could be bad and it is up to the builder to decide if in fact they are bad," that will creating MANY issues on many fronts for both Vans and it's customers. I am a big fan of your company and hold you in high regard. I mostly am watching this just to see how you handle it, though I do care about my fellow builders and wish to see this resolved for them.

It would seem to me that Vans will need to make more effort to assist builders with completed component to develop a reasonable inspection plan as well as a remediation plan, as some parts can be a challenge to remove. I certainly hope this is in your plans and suspect that it is. However, I am sure it is on the minds of many builders and feel you should speak to your plans in this area even if you have not had a chance to create them yet. I am sure it will calm many nerves.

If you are going to leave the builder to make these go / no go decisions, we are going to need a lot more data. For example, if the part doesn't crack during either dimpling or riveting, is it considered good, or is there still a risk of cracking down the road. How do I know if the upper dimpled skin is cracked UNDER the rivet head and therefore can't be seen without an xray, etc.

Hopefully that quote was just a legal necessity and not a precursor to how Vans will approach the complexity of this issue. I am probably not the only person that will read it this way and it would be beneficial to clarify Van's position on this.

Let us not forget that many builders did question the parts and reached out to Van's technical support for their expert guidance in the decision to trust and use the part with questionable quality and the answer seems to have been "all is good, not to worry."

Larry

Vans can put out manditory SBs and list of parts in red to replace. Someone has got to follow their direction. It looks like they are putting out detailed info on each part after extensive testing is finished. Builders are going to have show that they replaced these parts or the resale value of the completed aircraft will be zero. The insurance industry might require it too.

 

[ferrari308guy]

Is there a process to follow if we want to double check with Vans about the status of whether or not a particular part was ever laser cut?

I ordered a replacement E-1002 spar after I botched the first one during assembly. The part arrived without blue film and had the "burn marks" or stains that seem to be a tell-tale sign of laser cutting.

I was really surprised to see that E-1002 is not one of the parts that appears on the Vans list of laser cut parts. Seeing as elevator spars have already been highlighted by Vans as one of the critical parts of concern, I really want to be sure before proceeding.

 

[Everwild]

Is there a process to follow if we want to double check with Vans about the status of whether or not a particular part was ever laser cut?

I ordered a replacement E-1002 spar after I botched the first one during assembly. The part arrived without blue film and had the "burn marks" or stains that seem to be a tell-tale sign of laser cutting.

I was really surprised to see that E-1002 is not one of the parts that appears on the Vans list of laser cut parts. Seeing as elevator spars have already been highlighted by Vans as one of the critical parts of concern, I really want to be sure before proceeding.

Yes the big challenge is understanding if you have a good part or one that has, or will potentially form a crack as a result of the laser process. My -10 wing kit is impacted. Tank baffles is a big one. I inspected all of my installed wing ribs and they look fine. I however needed to order three replacement ribs and those cracked when dimpled. So it's hit or miss whether you have a good batch, or bad batch of parts. I'm also priming which makes determining if something was laser cut after the fact almost impossible unless you have a crack or photos of parts with blue on them.

 

[idubrov]

Yes the big challenge is understanding if you have a good part or one that has, or will potentially form a crack as a result of the laser process.

One mistake I've realized is that I should have recorded the manufacturing date of every single part when I was doing an initial inventory or got a replacement part. Would have helped to go through this process. I guess, taking photos of every single part would have helped, too, and with the current cost of storage wouldn't cost much either...

 

[Freemasm]

I wonder if it is possible to repair some of the cases by using oversized NAS1241 rivets. Assuming that engineering will come up with some guidance on their applicability at this scale (say, 100% in some assemblies).

Is an additional ~0.016" enough to clean the holes (for final sized holes of RV-10/14? for undersized holes of RV-7/8/9)?

Is a smaller (relatively) head size an issue or not?

I had wondered the same. 1241a or 1097s even. I can't quantify the affected areas from the pix.

 

[Brantel]

From the factory news update:

RV-12/12iS kit parts information:

The RV-12/12iS components that were laser-cut have been evaluated and tested in the highest-stress aircraft assembly to limit loads, during a course of testing representative of more than 30,000 hours of flight time (specifically, equivalent to one limit load event every hour for 30,000+ hours). Throughout those tests, no changes to, deformation of, or failure of the structure were observed. Also, note that RV-12iS parts that were fabricated using laser-cutting are not dimpled during construction.

Speaking only to the RV-12 kits.....

The way I read this, all the laser cut parts and assemblies that were built with them were not tested but instead from past communication the stabilator was tested using some accelerated testing protocol.

This insinuates that Van's is not testing the other assemblies that contain laser cut parts.

It also insinuates that Van's does not plan on replacing laser cut parts that show signs of the defects that many have posted about.

Then we have this statement included in the news posting:

Therefore, we encourage you to look at your actual parts and evaluate the fastener holes. In addition, as the aircraft manufacturer it remains incumbent on you at all times while constructing your airplane to evaluate each part, hole, and rivet as you complete your work. It is the builders’ responsibility to assess each part and make his/her own determination as to the suitability of each part both before and after assembly. Van’s will replace parts that the builder/manufacturer deems are not suitable when the parts are available.

So at this point I have made Van's aware of the fact that I received wing ribs that do not meet my expectations. I have sent pictures to support and have been told to wait on this formal communication for guidance on what to do next. This guidance seems to exclude the RV-12 so I am left scratching my head on what to do next.

I do not wish to participate in this experiment and do not want to continue to build these laser cut parts that have the known defects into my airplane. I spend an excruciating amount of time deburring holes and finishing edges of kit parts to ensure my airframes I build will outlast me and these wing ribs have defects that can not be cleaned up to my standards.

I know that the risk of developing issues down the road is likely somewhat less for the RV-12 than it is for the other RV's but at this point even the factory does not know for sure what the future holds. Testing one highly stressed assembly does not cover all the possible situations. It is also obvious that all the testing/evaluation/engineering etc. that was done prior to Van's moving to laser cut parts has failed to accurately predict future performance of these parts otherwise this situation that Van's and us as builders have found ourselves in would not exist.

While this post may appear critical of Van's, I am still convinced that they will do the right thing and take care of ALL their customers by providing solutions that ensure both parties are satisfied.

 

[Tlrguy]

From what I've read here, if a part has the blue plastic, it is not affected.

Therein lies the problem. I peeled all the blueing right away as instructed. I should have taken a picture of every part as it left the crate.

 

[abaden]

Not only the rolled leading edge, but the front and rear spars need replaced. Remember that the foam wedges are glued into these against the rear spar. I can’t imagine getting it apart and back together in acceptable shape.

Same issue with tanks. If baffles need replaced that would seem to be a complete rebuild.

Also interested to hear the solution to QB wings. Are they going to replace them? Doesn’t seem right to pay for QB then be required to disassemble and rebuild.

Will be interested to see how Van’s deals with this. Trust they will do it right.

I too am curious about what the resolution will be for Quickbuild wings - It is not clear how one would inspect the Quickbuild T-1002 tank baffle as it is installed in the tank and presumably covered in proseal? Rebuilding is one thing, but first it isn't clear how we will know what parts are effected from this initial update.


Alex

 

[bmellis11]

I'm curious what effect this has for kits like the RV-8 with undersized holes. I noticed these issues on some parts but thankfully never had the more pronounced issues that I have seen in some photos. I use a reamer to final drill holes and, at least to my naked eyes (20/20 vision), I haven't seen any hole defects after final sizing laser cut parts.

Just to be sure, last night I pulled a few laser cut parts that I haven't used yet and ran the reamer through the worst looking holes and they all came out clean. Maybe this is just an issue for the kits that come with final sized holes?

 

[RavenAero]

Parts missing from the list

Greg,

Upon initial audit of my RV-10 empennage kit I found several parts that appear to me to be laser cut (see pictures) but are not on the list:

• E-920 (probably a "REPLACE" item)
• E-616PP
• E-1002
• E-1008
• E-1015
• F-1006C
• F-1010C
• F-1011
• F-1012A
• F-1012B
• F-1055

I am also fairly certain that my VS-1002 and R-1002 spars (now installed) were laser cut.

 

[GrahamF]

For those who may be struggling to identify parts on the shelf (and having established that the presence of blue plastic means a part is punched rather than lasered):

1. Look out for any white part number labels still stuck to the parts. That would tend to indicate a laser cut part, since with the punched parts the label is on the blue plastic rather than the part itself.

2. Any small areas of white fluffy oxidation suggest that blue plastic was probably present at one time or another.

I'm currently going through my -7 wing kit, which mercifully I'd not really got beyond preparing the main spar. Have deburred and fluted half a dozen laser cut ribs which will be scrap, but that's not the end of the world.

So far my laser cut parts on the wing, and I'll be requesting replacements for all, include all the wing ribs except two, the aileron ribs, and the tank baffles.

I think I rather got away with it with my empennage - I remember removing blue plastic from all my spars. They may be a laser cut rib or two lurking in my completed rudder though - so that'll be a whole new assembly - it can't be reasonable to expect the builder to hack something like that to pieces to replace a part. Perhaps the spar at the back of the left elevator and the trim tab spar too - but thankfully not yet riveted together.

EDIT: I have found A-710 aileron stiffener, my examples of which are definitely laser cut, which does not appear on the list published.

I'm afraid in this instance I don't really buy the line about builder's responsibility to verify suitability of all parts, given that many builders raised these issues and the company told them there was no problem. When I first got my emp kit I went back with a snagging list (lots of parts in really poor shape, some I realise now were laser cut) and was told pretty brusquely that none of it was bad enough to warrant replacement - perhaps builders need to be more insistent in future over quality.

 

[bertschb]

..Upon initial audit of my RV-10 empennage kit I found several parts that appear to me to be laser cut

Yep, those are laser cut holes. Mine (RV-14A) look the same. Easy to identify. Just look for the notches in the holes.

 

[GrahamF]

Is it just me, or do some of those holes not even look round irrespective of any notching?

Correct. Just going through mine now and on my W-724-L they are not even close to round. Some of them have ~ 10 thou difference in the caliper reading when measuring the diameter at two positions 90 degrees apart.

 

[ccarlson]

Great attitude! I wish I was this upbeat right now.

I am also trying my darnedest to be positive in all of this, and it isn't easy; however, I purchased a kit from Vans because of their stellar reputation. So far, their response on this issue has not disappointed.

I ordered my RV-14A empennage, wing, and fuselage kits in July 2022. The empennage arrived in January 2023, and the wings and fuselage in April 2023. I pretty much have an example of every laser-cut part made in my kits

Fortunately, I only managed to get through page 06-05 before I stopped building in May because of cracks in many of the dimples on my VS spars and VS ribs. I thought the problem was either my tooling (Cleaveland dies, DRDT-2 dimpler) or technique. After much fretting and technical consultation, I was glad to learn it was neither tooling nor technique. The hard part now is waiting for replacement parts.