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SteinAir panel value

nohoflyer

nohoflyer

Well Known Member
Patron
I recently got two quotes.

One from Dynon for my desired instruments which was around 30k.

One from stein for a similar package but now this included the wiring and panel.

The Stein on was about 9-10k more expensive.

I get the value of the wiring but for that kind of money I am imagining doing the work myself. I have no background in wiring so I’m a bit intimidated. Things like CBs and busses (I know what they are) are complete mysteries for an install.

Is it worth just paying the extra money and getting a plug and play system?
 
You might take a look at an Quick Panel from Advanced Flight Systems, I have installed them in my RV-7 and Javron Super Cub. Probably as close to plug and play as it gets. Great folks to deal with!
 
Depends

Stein has done two panels for me and if I ever build another plane, they will do the panel for it as well.

You will get answers (soon I assume) that say wiring a panel is easy - so do it yourself. It is if you know what you are doing. Same with painting, fiberglass, rebuilding an engine, etc.

Most of us “probably” can do it, but ask yourself if you want to. I chose to build and do the things that I was sure I could.

Support after the sale is sometimes (I think frequently) needed and there is nobody better than the team at SteinAir.

Go fly a couple of “green slips” (or whatever they are called at your airline) and that will pay for the panel ;)
 
nohoflyer said:
I recently got two quotes.

One from Dynon for my desired instruments which was around 30k.

One from stein for a similar package but now this included the wiring and panel.

The Stein on was about 9-10k more expensive.

I get the value of the wiring but for that kind of money I am imagining doing the work myself. I have no background in wiring so I’m a bit intimidated. Things like CBs and busses (I know what they are) are complete mysteries for an install.

Is it worth just paying the extra money and getting a plug and play system?
Click to expand...

I hear great things about Stein panels and harnesses. If you decide to do it yourself, wiring is pretty straightforward if you have a proper knowledge of how things are supposed to be wired together. You can get that knowledge by reading the Aeroelectric Connection book (Google it for free PDF), and you can save yourself a lot of time and accelerate your practical skills by taking a class, such as the EAA Electrical Systems workshop or the AEA’s Avionics Installation for Experimental Aircraft (which is more comprehensive and applicable to Dynon even though the focus is on Garmin avionics).
 
I’ve been involved with two Stein installations, IFR panel and harness. They in my opinion are not plug and play. Many things need finishing up and manually ( make your own connections). I made my own panel and harnesses in my 14 but had to seek help on both Stein installations. With that said unless you are quite capable doing this yourself I would certainly recommend purchasing a prebuilt and designed installation. One of the biggest advantages to the Stein installation is the wiring schematic to have on hand troubleshooting in the future.
From what you describe you skill set , I would say plan on acquiring some help with the installation and setup. It’s more complicated than presented here. Just figuring out wire sizes and breaker ratings can be challenging.
 
nohoflyer said:
I recently got two quotes.

One from Dynon for my desired instruments which was around 30k.

One from stein for a similar package but now this included the wiring and panel.

The Stein on was about 9-10k more expensive.

I get the value of the wiring but for that kind of money I am imagining doing the work myself. I have no background in wiring so I’m a bit intimidated. Things like CBs and busses (I know what they are) are complete mysteries for an install.

Is it worth just paying the extra money and getting a plug and play system?
Click to expand...

SteinAir's quality of work and post-purchase support cannot be understated. You definitely are going to get what you pay for from Stein.

I just installed my second SteinAir built harness and panel and am gearing up to order a third for my next build. You definitely have to "marry" any of these prebuilt panels and harnesses to your kit, so you'll make a few connectors, heat a few solder sleeves, etc.

However, and this is huge, when you need help you just call SteinAir and every single time without hesitation you get fast, professional, knowledgeable, and courteous support. Even on days you think they won't answer the phone, they do.

SteinAir, simply the best.
 
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Big fan of Stein

I used Stein for all the avionics purchases and the harness wiring (which I’m currently installing). I did a full IFR Garmin panel. Due to Stein’s backlog for the actual panel, I ordered that elsewhere.

I’m my opinion, having Stein set up all your avionics, make the custom harnesses to connect everything and then test all the wiring is a huge value. I have a ham radio license and longtime experience with electronics, but it was well worth the money to have avionics experts wire everything together. And their support over the past year has been fantastic.

PM me if you have any questions.
 
Ron B. said:
One of the biggest advantages to the Stein installation is the wiring schematic to have on hand troubleshooting in the future.
Click to expand...

bkervaski said:
SteinAir's quality of work and post-purchase support cannot be understated. You definitely are going to get what you pay for from Stein.

However, and this is huge, when you need help you just call SteinAir and every single time without hesitation you get fast, professional, courteous support. Even on days you think they won't answer the phone, they do.

SteinAir, simply the best.
Click to expand...

+1 on both counts. Would definitely do again. Your skills and time available may offset the equation.
 
as a counter point, I did my own on both planes. It is not that hard. HOWEVER, I understand the basics of wiring, where to find guidance and also competent in troubleshooting errors. This is doable with the effort to learn the new skills required. However, if troubleshooting is not your thing and don't enjoy soldering and inserting thin wires into tiny recepticles while ensuring no strands stick out (harder than one would imagine), pay someone else to do the work. Errors can be a bit challenging to find and there are a few that can trash new equipment. Improperly crimping terminals can also create issues down the road that pop up as intermittent and no fun to find and fix. If you are going to do it, do some research here and learn from others mistakes.

Larry
 
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I have a panel in my RV7A that was built by Aerotronics almost 17 years ago. I am the second owner. Frankly this panel is the main reason why I purchased the aircraft from the builder. I’ve done several avionics upgrades to equipment on the aircraft (to include installing electric trim with a mult-function military style grip with A/P engage/disconnect, PTT, comm and freq swap, flap control, ident button, coolie hat trim functions and upgraded EFIS, ARINC, Transponder and ELT avionics) and this panel met the challenges every time. Aerotronics tech support was priceless!

Remember, avionics are not the total cost of a panel. There’s wiring, circuit breakers, switches, warning lights, ignition switch, usb ports, racks, dsub pin connections, etc. Then there’s the ability to draw schematics, photo documentation and other useful information so that upgrades and repairs are possible.

I think SteinAir and Aerotronics are both great examples of the value and support that a professionally designed and built panel package can provide long term. As the second owner of an RV, having someone to talk to about an avionics issue is priceless. Both Aerotronics and SteinAir support their panels now and to follow on ownership. The extra cost of a professionally built panel is money well spent.
 
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KatanaPilot said:
Stein has done two panels for me and if I ever build another plane, they will do the panel for it as well.

You will get answers (soon I assume) that say wiring a panel is easy - so do it yourself. It is if you know what you are doing. Same with painting, fiberglass, rebuilding an engine, etc.

Most of us “probably” can do it, but ask yourself if you want to. I chose to build and do the things that I was sure I could.

Support after the sale is sometimes (I think frequently) needed and there is nobody better than the team at SteinAir.

Go fly a couple of “green slips” (or whatever they are called at your airline) and that will pay for the panel ;)
Click to expand...

Haha I wish. Don’t get me started….:(
 
A few comments:
- I’m a big fan of Stein. I’ve purchased four full panels of avionics from him, and will so again. I built up the panels myself.
- If you don’t know how to wire connectors or follow equipment install manual for pin outs, configurations and such leave it to Stein.

Whatever you do produce bullet proof documentation. While wire schematics (spaghetti diagrams) look neat, they are a poor substitute for a simple Word File on:
- What each pin on each box does and what it goes to.
- Details on configuration (serial ports, EFIS settings and such).
- All serial numbers.
- Expiration dates on the various batteries (ELT, ELT remote switch, EFIS backup if you use one, etc.)
- Photos of everthing.
In other words, you cannot over document your install.

Side note. If you make your panel or if you get it from Stein, make it fully removable. You will modify/maintain/update it at some point so make it easy on yourself. The first RV-8A (20+ years young) is on panel #5. The first RV-10 had its first panel update at 18 months (Phase 1 provided information on what I could have done better on layout).

Carl
 
If you want help but want to save money, Stein can design a panel to your specifications and then give you printed schematics for a fraction of the price a full panel and harness build would cost. With the schematics, you'll know how to build the wiring harness and connect everything together and only need basic wiring skills (which are not hard to acquire). They will also be there to answer your questions about the schematics.
 
Also, to add, panel/harness builders know things (from experience) that can save a lot of time and effort.

Just last week I called SteinAir and was asking about how to integrate their harness with the kit harness of my current project ... saved me probably half day of work as NONE of what I planned to do was even necessary. Turns out the VPX Pro does some really cool stuff that isn't obvious.

You learn a lot from the pros.
 
Advanced

I have an Advanced Paneless Panel.
They will build with Dynon or Advanced. They will build the full panel ready to imstall or assemble all the electronics, test the system and box them up. If you go with the Advanced Control Module, most components just plug right in. You have to pin a few connectors but it's simple. Lighting, sticks, servos, flap motor and such.
I wanted to design and cut my own panel and use Honeywell switches so I went with the Paneless panel. Everything plugged right in.
 
I second the recommendation

I havent ever had dealing with Stein but would absolutely recommend Aerotronics. They have done two panels for me and Im scheduled for a third
 
lr172 said:
as a counter point, I did my own on both planes. It is not that hard. HOWEVER, I understand the basics of wiring, where to find guidance and also competent in troubleshooting errors. This is doable with the effort to learn the new skills required. However, if troubleshooting is not your thing and don't enjoy soldering and inserting thin wires into tiny recepticles while ensuring no strands stick out (harder than one would imagine), pay someone else to do the work. Errors can be a bit challenging to find and there are a few that can trash new equipment. Improperly crimping terminals can also create issues down the road that pop up as intermittent and no fun to find and fix. If you are going to do it, do some research here and learn from others mistakes.

Larry
Click to expand...

+1. Excellent summary. To the OP: see if you can find some small project and give it a try. Was it rewarding, or frustrating?
 
I would suggest getting a quote from Aerotronics. At the time I did my panel they were cheaper than Stein and also included more complete harnesses. Much more plug and play than Stein. I built the same aircraft at the same time another one was being built locally using a Stein panel and harnesses. In my opinion Aerotronics was more complete and offered better value.
 
I did my own panel wiring I and really enjoyed the process.

Mine is very ugly behind the panel compared to what I saw today done by Yves, and the Stein panels I've seen, which are beautiful both front and back. Mine looks good on the front (my opinion) and not so much behind, but it is functional. Knock on wood, I have not had a single issue with any components or the wiring. Probably a combination of luck and the very good manuals that come with all the devices, not to mention the Aeroelectric Connection book.

I am sure if you have the budget and don't want to get into all the wiring, someone like Stein will do a great job and save you a lot of time.
 
Panel build

For those folks considering doing it yourselves don’t forget to add in the costs of the tooling needed for a harness build and install. Stein built my harness, I did everything else. It was still a big job to get it installed. They do great work, have good support and I would certainly have StienAir build the next one. I also worked with two other G3x installs with harnesses built by Tim at Approach Fast Stack and that was a good experience as well with quality work and support.

Don Broussard
RV9 Rebuild in Progress (panel is done, paint is next)
57 Pacer (ThunderChicken)
 
I've worked with and bought avionics from both Jason at Aerotronics and Stein at Steinair. Both are absolute class acts. Stein is only about 45 minutes south of me and I've been to his shop in Fairbault on a few occasions (annual RV fly-in and brat feed). Likewise, Rob Hickman at Advanced Flight is in the same outstanding category...can't go wrong with any of the three, and I'm sure there others as well. OP is going to have to weigh cost, proximity, convenience, modularity, and upgradeability. In making a decision. In my mind, those are then only variables. They're all good people.
 
I had Midwest avionics in Lees Summit MO. build my avionics wire bundles for about $6k and bought all my magic boxes from them. They are very RV knowledgeable. I then cut my own panel came out nice and was a fun part of the project.

If you can swing it, AEA does a 3 day avionics installation class in Kansas City a couple of times. a year. Levi Self (owner of Midwest Avionics) taught my particular class. He's a former Garmin Systems engineer and I liked him and the way he does business, Those were the main reasons I went with his company.

I felt like getting the bundles fabricated saved me at least 6 grand worth of time and heartache, but I doubt that it really saved me much money over just getting somebody like Stein to fab it up.
 
Good place to trade money for time

I just finished building and bench testing my Garmin IFR panel. I have an electrical engineering background. I still had to learn a lot about tooling and avionics connectors and best practices.

If you decide you might want to build your own panel, take one of the wiring courses mentioned by the other posters or found through EAA. Or maybe an EAA tech counselor or chapter member would be willing to spend some time with you working through a training kit.

I think a panel build is a great place to trade money for time.

Build it yourself if:
It seems interesting to you and you want to learn it. And you have a lot more time than money.

Farm it out if:
You want to get flying sooner and want to rely on experts to take care of layout, component selection, schematics and drawings, fabrication, initial testing.

There is a lot of work involved.
Component list - switches, breakers, fuses, avionics.

Layout - where does all this fit on the panel?

Schematic and/or spreadsheet list of connections. I think the schematic is better for visualizing and troubleshooting and the spreadsheet wire list is better for wiring connectors. I learned KiCAD and created symbols (I'd be happy to share those) and the schematic.

Figure out how much and what types, sizes and colors of wire is needed. You still have to do some of this for the rest of the airplane if somebody else builds the panel.

Wire labels? - I bought an Epson LW-PX700 label printer and 6 or 7 cartridges of heat shrink tubing.

Buy all the parts and wires.

Metal panel - layout, cut, paint, label

I wanted to build the panel, enjoyed it, learned a lot and was glad I did the work. I'm not sure I saved a much if any money. And it sure took a lot of time.
 
People seem universally happy with Steinair.
My panel and wiring is completely DIY and I learned a lot and enjoyed the process and everything works. It took longer than expected and the mass of colored wires was initially confounding. The hardest part for me was working out how to route and secure the wires around the airframe. The Dynon documentation is really good and the Aeroelectric Connection has everything else you need to know.
The nice part about wiring is that it is easy to re-do a circuit if it doesn't turn out right the first time, versus trashing an expensive airframe part that needs to be replaced from Vans.

The quote you got from Dynon is probably recommended retail whereas Spruce and others may offer pricing that is discounted 5% or more.
 
I vividly recall my conversation with Steinair when I was contemplating whether or not to build the panel myself, a comment was made along the lines of; if this is your first time - assume roughly 500 hrs. of planning, studying, building, etc.

After receiving the fully built panel there was still a fair amount of work just installing the panel, mounting remote devices, running the wires, cable management, making antenna connectors, cutting off connectors to feed through a smaller hole and then reassembling, and making the final terminations and so on. After all of that I thought what I spent in Labor to have the panel built was a steal.

I really enjoyed the electrical work and installing the pre-built panel.
 
I built my own panel which I think turned out pretty nice and worked when switched on.

With patience and planing you can definitely do it too. It’s not harder than building an airframe or installing an engine. Just different.

As I enjoy building I would never consider not doing it myself but it does add considerable time and a couple hundred bucks in tooling so if you are in a hurry to go flying outsourcing it might not be a bad choice.

On the other hand you will learn a lot if you do it yourself which comes in handy if you intend to do your own maintenance.

As everything in airplanes it’s a trade off.

Hope that helps

Oliver
 
Just me

I bought all my avionics from Stein, a class act.
I drew up my schematics based on Garmin g3x installation manual. And then had the schematic reviewed by the Garmin experts during AirVenture. I proceeded to wire the panel myslef after investing $300 in quality tools. It took me 9 months to wire and install. Works like a champ.

Did a minor change several months ago and lost com 2. Discovered a broken wire in contact pin. Without doing it myself, I would have been hard press to find and correct the problem.

I figure, one can get “educated” during the build, or wait until something goes wrong. JMHO

By wiring it up myself, I really got to understand how the G3x works and plays together.
 
So many excellent replies and now I have a lot to think about. I do have the book regarding wiring for aircraft.
 
These are all quality panel shops.

I am ex ham radio guy so I real like wiring, electronics and setting up software.

I still went with a AFS quick panel on my RV7 up grade.

Why? I knew a retro fit was going take me at least 100 hours.
There is a ton of time just figuring out how to make up each harness. Potentially even more configuring the software. The extra cost was worth it for me verses the time.
 
There is a reason why Stein prints this on the back of their Tshirts.

Stein.jpeg
 
Dbro172 said:
I vividly recall my conversation with Steinair when I was contemplating whether or not to build the panel myself, a comment was made along the lines of; if this is your first time - assume roughly 500 hrs. of planning, studying, building, etc.

After receiving the fully built panel there was still a fair amount of work just installing the panel, mounting remote devices, running the wires, cable management, making antenna connectors, cutting off connectors to feed through a smaller hole and then reassembling, and making the final terminations and so on. After all of that I thought what I spent in Labor to have the panel built was a steal.

I really enjoyed the electrical work and installing the pre-built panel.
Click to expand...

I have installed both Stein and AFS Harnesses, the big difference I noticed is that Stein attaches the connectors on BOTH ends of a harness, necessitating removal of one connector in order to feed the harness through the airframe. The AFS harnesses are open ended, allowing easier cable routing. Once the cable has been routed it is cut to proper length and the D-sub pins are crimped and installed in the connector. I would imagine Stein would leave the connectors off at your request.
 
Jpm757 said:
I have installed both Stein and AFS Harnesses, the big difference I noticed is that Stein attaches the connectors on BOTH ends of a harness, necessitating removal of one connector in order to feed the harness through the airframe. The AFS harnesses are open ended, allowing easier cable routing. Once the cable has been routed it is cut to proper length and the D-sub pins are crimped and installed in the connector. I would imagine Stein would leave the connectors off at your request.
Click to expand...

The harnesses that AFS sent for my avionics upgrade/re-install were pinned/crimped but the connector bodies were left off. Made it much easier to pass those big cables through the tunnel and spar. I didn't have to crimp, just insert the pins in the connectors. AFS knows all about RV's (so do Aerotronics and Stein) and knew the cable lengths I was going to need.

Avionics install for me came with the need for new tools (that were only used once), as well as painful body positions, a LOT of studying, acquisition of need-once skills, trouble shooting, a LOT of phone calls to AFS, and forum review. Personally, I would MUCH rather have paid someone to do it but there wasn't anyone local (I'm a member of TWO EAA chapters) who could except for my buddy, who's an Anesthesiologist. To make matters worse, it occurred in the dead of a Minnesota winter. Fortunately, I was able to borrow space in a heated hangar for the project. I acknowledge the "builders-joy" aspect of avionics install for some people. I'm not one...for me it was a PITA. YMMV.
 
AFS

I was able to save a lot of money by buying my Garmin boxes from Approach Fast Stack at a discount and then having them make the wiring harness to connect them all together. I had my panel cut by a third party and assembled it all on the airframe while it was on a rotisserie. AFS provides a detailed spreadsheet for all connections and a good schematic diagram. You have to provide a diagram showing the distances between all the boxes so they can make the harness. Wire assemblies that have to be pulled through grommets and ribs are terminated with d-sub pins but not the connector. All connectors are included. This still left plenty of wiring for me; CB's, switches, lights, etc. Tim and his crew supplied excellent phone support before and after the sale.
 
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