What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Runway Finder Shutting Down

This morning's AVWeb is somewhat revealing.


Jeppesen, AOPA Ignore FlightPrep Patent


AOPA and Jeppesen, two of the largest players in the online flight planning business say a patent obtained by FlightPrep doesn't affect their products and they are not willing to discuss it. In a statement released Wednesday, AOPA says it will not meet with FlightPrep to discuss the patent and it will be business as usual for the product it provides. In fact, there's a new version coming out in a few weeks. FlightPrep didn't directly comment on AOPA and Jepp's reaction and had this to say. "FlightPrep has been in contact with Tom Haines and AOPA regarding our patent and online planner technology since 2007. FlightPrep is a small Oregon based business that is a proud AOPA advertiser, AOPA Summit participant, and our staff are proud members of AOPA as well as AOPA political action supporters" As we reported in Wednesday's AVwebBiz, RunwayFinder, a popular online flight planning site, shut down in the face of a lawsuit from FlightPrep.
 
How many of us has expressed their opinion directly to Flightprep? It's very easy to look up their sales department's email address & drop 'em a line; I just did.

[email protected]

There are many ways for a free market to operate....

Charlie
 
Since runwayfinder doesn't make money, why would they pay for a license?

Point of note: aside from any deals with ForeFlight and such, Runwayfinder.com contained google tex ads...which if you clicked on them, would make Runwayfinder money. (Although possibly not a profit...who knows.)
 
NACOmatic is gone with this statement:

I have decided to shutdown NACOmatic due to:

* Donations - as content & features increased, traffic increased ... and donations declined significantly.

* Uncertainty re: FlightPrep's patent litigation against on-line flight planning websites. This post does not admit any infringement on FlightPrep's patent.

Also flyagogo.com seems to be missing -- no idea of course if it is related to FlightPrep's patent.

Things like this (legit or not) tend to have chilling effects on hobbyists...no one wants to deal with legal matters for peanuts or just being nice to the community.
 
Last edited:
Wow. Look what happens when you're away from teh interwebz for a few weeks.

The deja va that I'm getting reflecting back to the whole claim that SCO owned UNIX and LINUX is pretty amazing. It seems that Flight Prep and ASA have taken the tack of "If you can't beat them, litigate them." The claims of prior art are going to be very interesting.

I have a general policy not to patronize patent trolls. ASA is no longer a company that I will purchase products from or recommend. The difference between how they treat pilots and how, say King Schools does is amazing. That's the beauty of capitalism - customers get to vote with their dollars.

TODR
 
FltPlan.com Denies Patent Infringement

Looks like FlightPrep is going after everyone. At least there are a few outfits that are not only saying NO but some are saying HECK NO.

http://www.eaa.org/news/2010/2010-12-16_fltplan.asp

"After review of the patent, FltPlan.com does not believe it is relevant to the FltPlan.com website, so confidential or other discussions with FlightPrep are not warranted. FltPlan.com has asked FlightPrep if it alleges the FltPlan.com website infringes the patent but FlightPrep has not responded."

FltPlan.com also said in its statement that FlightPrep recently contacted FltPlan.com concerning the patent which is directed to “A Process for Generating Travel Plans on the Internet.” In the letter, Chairman Roger Stenbock suggested that FltPlan.com enter into a confidentiality agreement to exchange confidential information. No such negotiations are happening.

http://www.fltplan.com/fltplanpressrelease.htm
 
Last edited:
Radius feature on RF

Another great feature of RF that I'll miss is the radius,, I liked to make a circle radius for small trips to see different areas while staying within a certain mile range.

I don't know if any there is such a feature on anything out there.

And me 3, I'll never knowingly purchase a FlightPrep or ASA product again.

Kenny Gene
 
Question? Wouldn't this be a task for a congressman? Would it be worthwhile for all of us to contact our representatives?
 
Runway finder shutting down

Here a coment from a dreamer,
Why "WE THE PEOPLES" show the system what we want,paying 60 dollars for a magazine ,a wing clip,an a letter for donation every two weeks,(even having $ 80 millones of Usdollars in the box,)start write letters to the biggest flying organisation in the world,which ,looking at the facts ,are very catholics,you know they act like Poncio Pilatus, instead of attach in the good of the members,clean they hands ,and say its not our problem.
Sorry for my poor English diccion.
Became an American Citizen 3 years ago,my first item purchase for my 10 was an american flag,please don' allow this country became like Europe.
Thanks
Hugo
 
Quick question. I contacted Sporty's to ask them to stop carrying ASA products. The response was that the companies are not related.

I know that Stenbeck is an author with many products published by ASA, but is ASA directly affiliated with Stenbeck & Everson?
 
ASA????

Really???? -- basically boycott ASA because Stenbock's other business, aviation video production, is used by ASA (not a Stenbock company) to produce training videos? I don't like what Flightprep has done and I understand the the desire to hit back at Stenbock in some fashion, but I think that is extreme and I can't support that as a course of action.
 
They make it easy

FlightPrep sends out several FlightPrep Insider e-mail newsletters and the very last line makes it easy to voice your opinion and desires. There is a "Remove" button placed there to remove you from their mailing list. Nice feature.
 
Really???? -- basically boycott ASA because Stenbock's other business, aviation video production, is used by ASA (not a Stenbock company) to produce training videos? I don't like what Flightprep has done and I understand the the desire to hit back at Stenbock in some fashion, but I think that is extreme and I can't support that as a course of action.

I have seen it mentioned, and believed, that ASA was a sister company to FlightPrep. That is my question, as I think many are under the same impression.
 
RF memorial

I suggest we don't let the memory of RunwayFinder die.

Rather than shirts or buttons that badmouth FlightPrep, why not add to our VAF signatures something like:

"I remember RunwayFinder"

or

"Former RunwayFinder user"

or

"Never Forget RunwayFinder"


What a week...with Dave's RunwayFinder woes and just yesterday Chad's identity theft, wonder what next week will bring? Hopefully clecoes and rivets under the tree!
 
Quick question. I contacted Sporty's to ask them to stop carrying ASA products. The response was that the companies are not related.

I know that Stenbeck is an author with many products published by ASA, but is ASA directly affiliated with Stenbeck & Everson?


I thought ASA was owned by Stenbock. Here is what ASA web site says:

In November, 1976, Joe Cucchiari purchased the company. ?Aviation Supplies and Academics? replaced Aviation Seminars of America as the name to go with the ASA acronym, and company goals were changed to include production of books, cassette courses and training materials. The company was incorporated in 1977. In 1981, Joe Finelli joined the organization, bringing 20 years experience in printing and publishing with him. Publishing has since become the principal course the company has taken.

http://www.asa2fly.com/ASA-HQ-C70_category.aspx


Stenbock and his company do appear in the ASA training videos and a LARGE FlightPrep sign is seen in the background of every classroom.

Maybe it is time for someone to dig more into the corporate structure of Aviation Supplies & Academics, Inc.


 
What a week...with Dave's RunwayFinder woes and just yesterday Chad's identity theft, wonder what next week will bring? Hopefully clecoes and rivets under the tree!

I just hope someone hasn't already patented being an identity theft victim or Chad may get sued :D
 
I just posted on their Facebook page that I will never do business with them.

In my industry another company did the same thing but they simply wiped out all the competition. Subsequently prices went up fivefold.
 
Just sent:


j6sjna.jpg

Yes! Well said!
 
I just got off the phone with Fred Boyns, the CFO of ASA in WA State. I just wanted to go to the source to end all the speculation and innuendo surrounding Roger Stenbocks connection to the company. He is NOT an owner, but simply one of the many and varied authors and has contributed a total of 6 items to the over 185 items ASA has available. I let him know that I have enjoyed their products in the past and will continue to support them in the future. With his permission I am posting this.
Good to know. I will soften my line about ASA. However, ASA should still be aware of the business practices of its suppliers and the potential negative implications.

TODR
 
RunwayFinder TO FIGHT!!!

Hooray!!!! RunwayFinder will FIGHT FlightPrep per a recent post in Dave's blog. Please support Dave anyway you can!! See his blog.

http://bit.ly/dFqNSj

If ANYONE knows his e-mail address, please post it. I want to offer my support.
 
RunwayFinder to Fight Back!

Wow, I just read his most recent update on his blog and all I can say is "This is going to be interesting!" And to think that RunwayFinder is not even Dave's full time job! It tells me that he really believes in RunwayFinder to the point that he is willing to fight for it. Wow, it's like the skinny little kid that got the sand kicked in his face by the big bully is going to fight back, not with brute strength but with brains! I always did like those kinds of story lines.

Dave, I wish you the best! I'll be pulling for you!! :)
 
http://blog.runwayfinder.com/2010/12/17/the-road-forward/

The Road Forward
December 17, 2010 in News by Dave | No comments
I?m starting a new post that is dedicated to the dismantling of the FlightPrep patent and their lawsuit against RunwayFinder. I spent some time last evening reading over their patent and some of the documents in their patent application. I think there is a clear path toward fighting the lawsuit against RunwayFinder, and potentially a way to invalidate their patent. I am going to represent RunwayFinder myself at least initially in the lawsuit. The help from everybody so far is much appreciated.

I?ve had some good interest in putting the website code into open source. Regardless of how the lawsuit works out, I?ll work on that once the current situation is under control.

I?ve had several requests for the summons and complaint that was filed in Oregon District Court. I?ve posted it here. I didn?t scan Exhibit 1 as it?s an exact copy of the FlightPrep patent 7,640,098.

First off, a little background on patents. If you know all of this, feel free to skip this paragraph. The most important part of a patent in an infringement suit is the claims section. Ironically, the claims sections starts on nearly the last page of the patent. FlightPrep has 23 claims in their patent. You?ll notice that many of these are linked together. Claims 2-10 are all linked to claim 1. Claims 12-20 are all linked to claim 11. And 22-23 are linked to 21. The linked claims are called dependent claims. In order to be infringing on a patent, a person or entity must be infringing on every one of the claims that are linked together. Thus, an infringement would need to be on all of claims 1-10, or all of claims 11-20, or all of claims 21-23 for this patent.

I?ve also posted what?s called the ?file wrapper? for the patent. This includes all of the original application plus any amendments and the correspondence with the patent examiner. A couple of interesting things I?ve noticed after reading through it more carefully. First, their application for a patent was not rejected just once. It was rejected 7 times, including one ?final rejection.?

Additionally, as I mentioned in an earlier post this patent is a divisional patent. In other words, the original patent application was split into two applications. I?ve also posted the file wrapper for the original FlightPrep patent application. It was eventually abandoned. It?s interesting to compare the claims in the original patent application to what they ended up with in the final patent. I?ll be reading through those differences more carefully, but they substantially modified and added to their claims over the course of 8 years adding a housekeeping frame and navigation waypoints. Most of the modifications were done in the 2006-2009 timeframe, well after websites like Google Maps, RunwayFinder, and SkyVector had been online for years. Even going back to their original 2001 patent application, it can be argued that their ?invention? was basically taking what MapQuest did back in 1996 with online maps and making an obvious extension by applying it to aeronautical charts. From what I understand, the best way to get the patent invalidated is to write directly to the patent examiner with prior art that he did not consider in his original review of the application.

As for the lawsuit, reading through their patent more carefully I can make a very clear and convincing case that RunwayFinder does not infringe. Every one of their independent claims starts with the concept of ?compositing? a navigation chart. This is basically how Google Maps creates their road maps. They start with a blank slate, add roads, add cities, add text, etc. However, RunwayFinder is only displaying a digital representation of paper VFR and IFR charts. Even in the patent they say, ?In this invention, the charts are not the traditional paper charts, but are charts generated electronically using a computer software system, this will become apparent further in this description. [sic]? RunwayFinder does not generate the charts. There are many other angles I can take as well, but this seems to be the most convincing as it is the basis for their entire patent.

I must respond to their summons by December 28th. Convenient that this lands right on Christmas week. I?ll be working on my ?answer? over the weekend, and will post a draft on this blog.
 
From the lawsuit http://blog.runwayfinder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/summons_claim.pdf :

13. As a direct and proximate result of Runwayfinder's conduct, Stenbock has suffered and will continue to suffer irreparable injury, for which it has no adequate remedy at law. Stenbock has also been damaged, and, until an injunction issues, will continue to be damaged in its business and reputation in an amount yet to be determined. Moreover, the wilful and deliberate nature of Runwayfinder's infringement renders this an exceptional case, and this Stenbock is further entitled to treble damages, as well as its actual attorneys' fees and litigation costs.

From the FlightPrep blog, on http://blog.flightprep.com/2010/12/regarding-runwayfinder-shutting-down.html :

This latest move of RunwayFinder, electing to shut down its website, is another example of an attempt to inflame the pilot community.

...just quoting as written. Of course, you should read both in full for any context. May contain typos.

If ANYONE knows his e-mail address, please post it. I want to offer my support.

He had it published as dave [@t] runwayfinder [d0t] com ...
 
Last edited:
There is no question that Dave can write code with the best of em. I do get anxious when non-JD types plan to represent themselves in legal issues against experienced JD types. I remember seeing offers of assistance on this thread....I think...a good thing. Personally, I think Dave is on target with trying to get the patent destroyed. That would make Dave a hero not just to us but to the other small plans that have already folded.
 
There is no question that Dave can write code with the best of em. I do get anxious when non-JD types plan to represent themselves in legal issues against experienced JD types. I remember seeing offers of assistance on this thread....I think...a good thing. Personally, I think Dave is on target with trying to get the patent destroyed. That would make Dave a hero not just to us but to the other small plans that have already folded.

The blog post quoted a couple of posts above contains some significant incorrect statements about how patent law works. If Mr. Parsons intends to defend this suit, he ought to find a competent attorney right away.
 
The blog post quoted a couple of posts above contains some significant incorrect statements about how patent law works. If Mr. Parsons intends to defend this suit, he ought to find a competent attorney right away.

+1

Law if a complex beast, especially for engineer types. And I mean that with fond respect to both lawyers and engineers...

:)
 
And to think I liked Golden Eagle until now.

Is there a legal defense fund we can help out with? I'm all for intellectual property but some of these software patents are just out-of-my-freakin-mind ridiculous.
 
Someone mentioned that airnav.com was impacted. Yesterday I looked and saw a generic road map type picture of the airport and surrounding area. Was that a sectional picture prior to this situation?
 
Last edited:
Someone mentioned that airnav.com was impacted. Yesterday I looked and saw a generic road may type picture of the airport and surrounding area. Was that a sectional picture prior to this situation?

No, that's the way it's been for as long as I can remember.
 
And to think I liked Golden Eagle until now.

Is there a legal defense fund we can help out with? I'm all for intellectual property but some of these software patents are just out-of-my-freakin-mind ridiculous.

I'm assuming Dave reads this thread so I will simply say that if he feels the need to set one up, I will plan on participating. His call of course, but I think he needs to know support does exist. This foolishness needs to stop with Dave. AOPA and JEPP are not going to help the innovators...they are going to circle the wagons and protect their own crumbling empires.
 
Someone mentioned that airnav.com was impacted. Yesterday I looked and saw a generic road map type picture of the airport and surrounding area. Was that a sectional picture prior to this situation?

Yes, until yesterday there was a sectional on the AirNav pages, in addition to the roadmap. Thank you FlightPerp!

George
 
Airnav used SkyVector.

Now for the bad news. If you read the SkyVector site, they were dumb enough to accept a temporary license.

http://skyvector.com/forum/[title-raw]-12

All it takes is one idiot to validate FlightPrep has a licensable product by accepting a temporary license to operate. SkyVector's move was terrible for everyone who's trying to defend their own sites.

Nice job, SV!! You ate the apple and now you're going have to live with the results. You didn't make any friends in the process either.

Phil
 
Airnav used SkyVector.

Now for the bad news. If you read the SkyVector site, they were dumb enough to accept a temporary license.

http://skyvector.com/forum/[title-raw]-12

All it takes is one idiot to validate FlightPrep has a licensable product by accepting a temporary license to operate. SkyVector's move was terrible for everyone who's trying to defend their own sites.

Nice job, SV!! You ate the apple and now you're going have to live with the results. You didn't make any friends in the process either.

Phil

Let's not beat up on SkyVector too much because they didn't risk financial ruin to fight licensing what is a legal patent, and with no prior case results to look to. It sucks and doesn't help the rest of the playewrs, but it's a really terrible position to be in as the little guy... Probably a smart move for them. I of course, have incredible respect for what Dave is trying to do...I hope it works out well for him.

This is not easy stuff to handle when you are in the crosshairs and stand to lose everything... I think we need to keep this focused vs. diluting across the widest net of association.
 
Last edited:
Yes, until yesterday there was a sectional on the AirNav pages, in addition to the roadmap. Thank you FlightPerp!

George

No sectional, or even a link to a sectional...

These are the only links you get on an airport page

Road maps at: MapQuest MapPoint Yahoo! Maps Google Rand McNally
Satellite photo at: TerraServer Virtual Earth
 
I worked for EV1Servers.net when they chose to license SCO Linux. It was a simple business decision...and oh, man...I feel SkyVector's pain. (To put it in perspective, there still may be a few IT folks reading this that brand me for even being related to that incident.)


I've been in the IT industry for 17 years now and involved in several software technologies that were patented and others who have cloned our products claiming an invention on their behalf. We currently hold 385 legitimate patents. Stuff like this comes up occasionally but intellectual property (IP) is the thing that gets challenged more in today's environment. This patent is non-sense and I have no sympathy for the folks at SkyVector.

On a side note, I wonder if Al Gore has considered filing a lawsuit against Flightprep for inventing something that uses the internet? :D:D:D
 
Last edited:
"In order to be infringing on a patent, a person or entity must be infringing on every one of the claims that are linked together. Thus, an infringement would need to be on all of claims 1-10, or all of claims 11-20, or all of claims 21-23 for this patent."
Dave, I hope you may be reading these posts but this is not correct. In order to infringe you only need to infringe any one claim, but you must have all the elements of that claim in your product or device. Thus you if you have all elements of either of claim 1, 11, or 21 that would be not good. In addition in order to infringe claim 2 for example, you need all of claim 1 and claim 2, since claim 2 is claim 1 combined with claim 2. If you do not have the elements of claim 1 you can not infringe any dependant claim 2-10 for example.
The simple test (but not complete) is do you not have the elements in 1, 11, or 21? If not that is good for you.
I am not a lawyer, so my advice is worth what it costs.
 
Last edited:
Pete & Marty, there is already an outfit with a fairly good track record of invalidating bogus patents called Electronic Frontier Foundation. Contact them at www.eff.org. They may be a great source of help in this situation.

Certainly hope so.
 
Back
Top