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Runway Finder Shutting Down

Snowflake said:
You're still mixing up two separate issues here... One, whether FP's patent is valid or not (I think we all agree it isn't, but that still needs to be proven in court), and two, whether inventing something is enough to get a patent for it.

Remember, their patent isn't just for online flight planning. It also incorporates drawing a track on an online map, and other features. If they were the first to put all those features together, the sad reality is that they may deserve the patent. I hope not.

Showing that their invention was obvious to someone skilled in the art is extremely difficult after the fact, and again will probably require a court to settle.
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Quite frankly, to me it doesn't matter if they were the first people to put a track on an online map. Drawing that magenta line is not an invention; the apparatus that draws that line is the invention. In this particular case, that apparatus is a mass of code that was developed by FlightPrep. Now if someone else starts with a clean slate and builds a similar product, I don't consider that to be an identical or derivative invention. It particularly irks me to read FlightPrep referring to RunwayFinder using "their technology." That is utter bullcrap. The only way someone could be using their technology is if they got a hold of FP's source code, copied and/or massaged it, and then passed it off as their own creation.

Now, I am nowhere near being a lawyer, nor am I versed on patent law, so don't think that I'm trying to pass this off as anything but my opinion. But this is the reason why, regardless of the legal status, I have a problem with this whole patent infringement issue.
 
N546RV said:
Quite frankly, to me it doesn't matter if they were the first people to put a track on an online map. Drawing that magenta line is not an invention; the apparatus that draws that line is the invention. In this particular case, that apparatus is a mass of code that was developed by FlightPrep. Now if someone else starts with a clean slate and builds a similar product, I don't consider that to be an identical or derivative invention. It particularly irks me to read FlightPrep referring to RunwayFinder using "their technology." That is utter bullcrap. The only way someone could be using their technology is if they got a hold of FP's source code, copied and/or massaged it, and then passed it off as their own creation.

Now, I am nowhere near being a lawyer, nor am I versed on patent law, so don't think that I'm trying to pass this off as anything but my opinion. But this is the reason why, regardless of the legal status, I have a problem with this whole patent infringement issue.
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I saw a very similar series of events many years ago (and I'm sure it's happening all over all the time) when I did GPS work. Some jerk decided he would "patent" the "method" for putting a point on a map (in fancy terms, georeferencing). Might as well "patent" the equation for computing distance...****, why not? He then proceeded to try to extort money from anyone and everyone who ever made a box that, oh, you know, actually *did the work* of computing fixes, loading and displaying maps, and showing a position on said map. After quite a while, he did, eventually, lose the case.

People who do this kind of **** should be hauled into court for fraud and sued to the ends of their means. I read the "patent" in the current case, and from where I sit (and no, I'm not a lawyer), it's just one big bucket of bushwa.

I swear, I'm going to patent the quadratic equation or something equally incredible and start going after everyone who solves an equation. Patent and copyright law has *not* kept up with the times. Moreover, individuals and companies who act like this will get NONE of my money, now or in the future. And I don't give a rip about the niceties of "they are two indiependent companies"...you own 'em, it's all the same to me...

I'll be sure to pass this info on to the flight club I belong to, as well...I'm sure the several hundred members, mostly comprised of people who earn a living in endeavors where ethical behavior and intellectual openness are considered key, will similarly take a dim view of this kind of extortion.
 
Its a poor business model that rather than being better, relies on destroying others work using 'The System' to establish its own superiority.

... but that is the system we have. We all use it to our own advantage if we can, mainly in small ways. But it can be used in larger ways if you have the gonads. FP are trying to show us the size of theirs....

... but to my mind its only those who are 'challenged' in that area who feel the need to go about bullying (legal or not). And, as such I would not purchase any product from someone who behaves as if their competitors are so much better that they couldn't be beaten in a fair fight (product-to-product in this case).

The world has several examples where these system-(mis)using tatics were successful. As a result of this, have we ended up with better products? Or just what was left?

So, I too will not support or recommend anything from FP, not only because I disagree with their use of the system, but primarily because their behaviour implys to me that even they appear to not believe their product is better!
 
Excellent Read

MartySantic said:
A very good story on AvWeb by Russ Niels. Well said!

"What Now, FlightPrep?"

http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/WhatNowFlightPrep_203858-1.html
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This article, in a community respected aviation news source, says it all. Time is running out for Flight Prep to DO THE RIGHT THING. Cancel all pending legal action and start figuring out what is best for aviation and it's pilots. That may end up earning FP the trust (and business) of the aviation community back. But, as I said "Time is running out" Flight Prep.
 
The avweb blog article is very good, and I commend Russ Niles for putting it out there.

This morning, AeroNews also has a great article about the situation. They also mention that FlightPrep has possibly threatened legal action to them for their coverage of the issue.

Last night, I got on and put my money where my mouth was and donated to the RunwayFinder legal defense fund. I was an occasional user of RunwayFinder, but I felt it was necessary for those of us that care about aviation and the aviation community to vote with our dollars. Since I wasn't a FlightPrep subscriber either, the only way I could "vote" was to contribute to the RunwayFinder fund.

I intend to continue contributing to the cause. I encourage all of you that are concerned, to contribute.

I would suggest that since a year subscription to FlightPrep is around $150, that might be a good starting point for a contribution, as a symbolic gesture.
 
I'm waiting for Flightprep to go after Falconview and PFPS (military mission planning software) since it all works the same.

Lets see them sue those outfits.
 
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Interview with a patient Attorney by AVweb

AVwWebs interview

FlightPrep's patent on online flight planning isn't perfect, but it doesn't have to be to fend off challenges. IFR editor and Aviation Consumer contributor Jeff Van West spoke with patent attorney and pilot Lionel Lavenue about how patents are generally a good thing and how difficult it might be for those fighting this one to win.

http://www.avweb.com/podcast/podcas...anning_PatentLaw_203826-1.html?kw=RelatedBlog
 
I just reviewed both of the links in the prior two posts and found them interesting. What I still wonder is why these services are not being offered from European companies, as Europe does not recognize software patents.
 
Or why the original site owners didn't just get them hosted on a European site. I guess if the site is still ultimately run by someone in the US, that person is still someone you can attack. They'd have to sell the entire package to someone in Europe, and give up any control to make that work.

Even then, maybe they could be sued for "aiding and abetting" or something like that. :p
 
Snowflake said:
Or why the original site owners didn't just get them hosted on a European site. I guess if the site is still ultimately run by someone in the US, that person is still someone you can attack. They'd have to sell the entire package to someone in Europe, and give up any control to make that work.

Even then, maybe they could be sued for "aiding and abetting" or something like that. :p
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If I were in that boat and did not expect my software to make me any money I'd just open source it. Give it to the world and let the world decide what to do with it.

Flight prep's lawyers would stay fat chasing each and every node that would pop up. :)
 
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Mods: Sorry for the brief diversion.

BrentHumphreys said:
If anyone still harbored a thought that FlightPrep was acting reaonably. Read this.
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I'm on Runway Finder's side in all this but before this part of it goes too far you owe it to yourself to independently verify Jim Campbell's (ANN's 'editor') claims of persecution. This isn't the first song at that concert.

Cards on the table: Campbell unsuccessfully sued me and 14 others several years ago. Details are out there for your reading pleasure. Suffice it to say that if Campbell came in soaking wet and told me it was raining I'd still check the weather before grabbing an umbrella. He's not helping RF's case.
 
For your reading enjoyment...

nauga said:
I'm on Runway Finder's side in all this but before this part of it goes too far you owe it to yourself to independently verify Jim Campbell's (ANN's 'editor') claims of persecution. This isn't the first song at that concert.
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Google "James "Captain Zoom" Campbell" and read some history.


John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
AvWeb coverage

There was an interview in AvWeb. Basically FlightPerp (oops) Prep is trying to publicly justify its actions against Runway Finder by saying that not dropping the lawsuit was the only way to get Runway Finder to the table. He is admitting to using the legal system as an extortion tool. Very common but in my book very immoral. Strong-arming someone into negotiations they don't want to engage in is one more example of "might is right". Just because it works doesn't mean people will see it as O.K.

Jeremy

extortion: The obtaining of property from another induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right.
 
MartySantic said:
Just posted my response to a Letter to the Editor (which supports FlightPrep) on General Aviation News. Looking at the dozen comments, some positive some negative. My response, made it clear I support RunwayFinder. Add your thoughts....

http://www.generalaviationnews.com/?p=34120&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
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I did... 36 hours ago. It still doesn't show up on the site. They claim they have approved all comments... but it was over 12 hours after the article was posted before any comments showed up.

My comments were reasonable, and should not have been moderated. I think that web site comes down on the side of FlightPrep so I am a little suspicious.
 
BrentHumphreys said:
I did... 36 hours ago. It still doesn't show up on the site. They claim they have approved all comments... but it was over 12 hours after the article was posted before any comments showed up.

My comments were reasonable, and should not have been moderated. I think that web site comes down on the side of FlightPrep so I am a little suspicious.
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Please try again!! I had no trouble whatsoever.
 
I wonder when Flightprep is going to sue Google since Dave Parson's is primarily guilty of cleverly using Google's free mapping apps and API's to tile U.S. government provided sectional charts on his excellent website.

I'm also wondering why Google hasn't stepped into the fray in support of Dave since he was using their free products to produce his site.
 
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MacNab said:
I wonder when Flightprep is going to sue Google ...
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I'll speculate that's FP's tactic...to go after the little guys first, establish precedence (in the courts or not), then go after the larger guys with extra additional support. Not sure if it works that way, but that's one thought I've had...FWIW.
 
MacNab said:
I wonder when Flightprep is going to sue Google since Dave Parson's is primarily guilty of cleverly using Google's free mapping apps and API's to tile U.S. government provided sectional charts on his excellent website.

I'm also wondering why Google hasn't stepped into the fray in support of Dave since he was using their free products to produce his site.
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I have been to NavMonster and Skvector. They both make really miss how well Runwayfinder stiched together the charts.
 
See it for what it is...

If FP is in fact going after the little guy first (for whatever reason), it makes me think of how WW2 started and got so big because too many for too long failed to see what was really happening. This bullying behaviour has to be stopped before there are more innocent casualties. This battle must be won, and soon. Let Dave know you are with him if you haven't already. Consider supporting him by making a donation at http://boycottflightprep.com/


Bevan :cool:
 
General Aviation News Editorial

The following [link includes] response[s] to the Letter to the Editor on the General Aviation News website which supported FlightPrep. If true, it gives one a little insight to the business practices of Mr. Stenbock. See,

http://www.generalaviationnews.com/?p=34120#more-34120

[...removed the text I'm sure my lawyer would want me to, and adjusted URL to point to entire story. No need to duplicate the vitrol here. dr]
 
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AOPA Aviation eBrief today...

the quote at the end of the AOPA Aviation eBrief today was particularly appropriate, given the situation:

"If there's anything I've learned from my years in the tech world, it's that companies don't get killed by competition. They usually find creative ways to commit suicide."

--Sridhar Vembu,
CEO of Zoho
 
some news/ update:

http://blog.runwayfinder.com/2011/02/13/motion-to-dismiss/

The RunwayFinder attorneys filed a motion two weeks ago in the Oregon district court to dismiss FlightPrep’s lawsuit based on a lack of personal jurisdiction. My understanding of the motion is that FlightPrep filed their lawsuit with the wrong court. They could of course file again with the correct court. I hope instead they start taking a different approach rather than continue the full-court press against pilots that run websites as a hobby.

I would like to be able to report some good news, but there isn’t much of it. Although things have quieted down, they are certainly not going any better. RunwayFinder is still offline. We are preparing the reexamination request, and I’m confident their patent will be drastically reduced in scope if not completely nullified. As I mentioned before, reexamination is a long process. Although it may not help the immediate situation, it will improve the outlook for online flight planning in the future.

I appreciate all of the support. Hopefully this some day comes to a resolution.

On a side note, another person has independently made a website that displays aviation charts in a Google Maps-style interface. It doesn’t have all of the features that RunwayFinder had, but does include more chart types: vfrmap.com.
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If the following comes to fruition Pete is officially my new hero.

I would like to be able to report some good news, but there isn?t much of it. Although things have quieted down, they are certainly not going any better. RunwayFinder is still offline. We are preparing the reexamination request, and I?m confident their patent will be drastically reduced in scope if not completely nullified. As I mentioned before, reexamination is a long process. Although it may not help the immediate situation, it will improve the outlook for online flight planning in the future.
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Nice site, Scott

ScottSchmidt said:
Just wanting to post this site that was mentioned on Runwayfinders blog.
It works pretty good but is a little slow loading.

http://vfrmap.com/
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I sure do miss RunWayFinder.:mad:

Last year about this time I was using it to make rough plans of the 48 state trip. It was the easiest site for simple flight planning.

Kent
 
It could well be due to substandard computer skills (my deficiencies are considerable in many areas!) but it does not appear that the vfrmap.com site permits routes to be selected, or flight planning of any kind. Given the current litigious environment (thanks to FlightPrep) that would not be surprising if true, but I wanted to verify with others if that is in fact the case or whether I?m just being particularly daft today ?.thanks!
 
WhiskeyMike said:
It could well be due to substandard computer skills (my deficiencies are considerable in many areas!) but it does not appear that the vfrmap.com site permits routes to be selected, or flight planning of any kind. Given the current litigious environment (thanks to FlightPrep) that would not be surprising if true, but I wanted to verify with others if that is in fact the case or whether I’m just being particularly daft today ….thanks!
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You're not alone Bill. I noticed the same thing. It seems to be an electronic chart and that's it. No options for flight planning.
 
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SNF - Flightprep - RunwayFinder

FlightPrep will be at SunNFun per the SNF website. Think all that attend should let them know the homebuilder/aviation community is not too terribly happy with the actions that they have taken recently. Hope to be there.
 
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MartySantic said:
FlightPrep will be at SunNFun per the SNF website. Think all that attend should let them know the homebuilder/aviation community is not too terribly happy with the actions that they have taken recently. Hope to be there.
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Seems like a good reason to return to SunNFun for the first time in many years. Oh, my first SunNFun was to talk to Eggenfellner / or is that Viking engines?... Maybe not! :).
 
MartySantic said:
FlightPrep will be at SunNFun per the SNF website. Think all that attend should let them know the homebuilder/aviation community is not too terribly happy with the actions that they have taken recently. Hope to be there.

[ed. Can you post the URL to the 2011 exhibitor's list? I found one for 2010, but not 2011. I agree that if they show they are in for an earfull. dr]
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Here is a list of Sun-N-Fun exhibitors for 2011.

http://www.sun-n-fun.org/FlyIn/Exhibitors/2011Exhibitors.aspx

Here is an insert from the list.

FlightPrep B-036, B-037
 
Anyone Wanna Get On This?

I'll be there. If I had a Runway Finder T-shirt, I would make it a point to wear it...real bright color.:rolleyes:

Imagine a stream of 20-30-40 people all wearing the same shirt, all just strolling peacefully by their booth.

Any enterprising soul on board here who can make a T-shirt happen quickly? How about part of the proceeds going to the RF defense fund?

Just a random thought or two...

John
RV-9 Preview
Scheming and planning
 
I Agree...

...with Dwight. Any sort of activity like that would necessitate touching home base first. All things considered I would not be surprised if Dave had to remain neutral - at best. He has more than enough to deal with. What is ultimately in the best interest of him and Runway Finder should rule.
 
Feedback

I heard from Dave and his comment was that ... he can't comment.

[Idea dropped, so the details don't need to be retained - dfrye]

[ed. I would respectfully ask you not promote doing this on my site. It puts ME and my family in the legal crosshairs, so to speak. Davey has another job to fall back on. I don't. ;^) dr]
 
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