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New fuel tank service bulletin from Vans

szicree said:
My guess is that standard practice is to inspect all such fittings periodically or safety the ones that can't be inspected (like this one).

One thing I've been wondering about is why the nut should be safety tied? Considering the reputation of proseal, and the fact that these particular fittings will probably NEVER be removed during the aircraft's life, wouldn't a small dab of proseal in the threads actually be better than using safety wire?

Being experimental builders, we have more options than would certified builders so why not proseal instead? Van's knows more about their airplanes than we do, but still, why not proseal being a possibly/probably better alternative?

Anybody?
 
LocTite - more info

http://www.permatex.com/documents/tds/automotive/19962.pdf

I reconsidered and after reviewing the spec's, I'd think about using the permanent stuff. Also, application per specs requires cleaner and primer. The primer is a spray, wait 30 seconds, apply locker. It's OK in auto gas. It has very high resistance to torque, both breakway and sustained after breakaway. If ProSeal is "permanent", then why not Loctite? Wouldn't it be easier to work with through the access hole?
h
 
terry- the guy was blowing off steam.

Let Van fix them? How would that look for business of a Fortune 500 company, a couple hundred planes parked out back grounded by Van's.

Lycoming pays for SB's. Like 1.5 hrs. labor towards fuel pumps and parts replacement.

Just another way of compliance. Is what the guy had in mind.
 
Highflight said:
One thing I've been wondering about is why the nut should be safety tied? Considering the reputation of proseal, and the fact that these particular fittings will probably NEVER be removed during the aircraft's life, wouldn't a small dab of proseal in the threads actually be better than using safety wire?

Being experimental builders, we have more options than would certified builders so why not proseal instead? Van's knows more about their airplanes than we do, but still, why not proseal being a possibly/probably better alternative?

Anybody?

Maybe in an ideal world, proseal would be an acceptable choice. But Van has no way of knowing if a given builder is going to exercise proper quality control. How can Van possibly know if a given builder is going to use a batch of proseal has been stored properly or past its expiration date or mixed improperly or contaminated or applied to a surface that was poorly prepared? I'm a fan of proseal. I'm very comfortable with it. I had to wade in the stuff on the production line where virtually all internal sheet metal parts on salt water aircraft are (fay) prosealed prior to assembly, whether the components are part of a fuel system or not. Even a humble electrical clip is bonded to a given intercostal or rib or stiffener or whatever with proseal prior to riveting. So sure I am of proseal's bonding properties, I even installed the NACA vents and the empennage fairing below the horizontal stabilizer on "Darla" with proseal only...using no "chicken" rivets or other fasteners like so many other builders.

In my view, Van did the sensible thing. Properly attached safety wire is a prudent, safe and proven fix. Such a fix conforms to widely accepted standard aircraft practices as outlined in AC43 and other publications. It is a routine fix recognized and approved by the FAA and by extension...our insurers. If need be, a visual inspection can quickly validate if the safety wire is installed correctly. I ask some of the more disgruntled builders among us to just step back and try to envision for a moment what you are really asking Van to do by endorsing a quick fix that consists of little more than applying a stategic dollop of proseal here and there. Personally, I don't think Van is willing (much less technically able) to demonstrate and certify a quick and easy proseal fix that to be approved in the industry and among his peers would be subject to intense lab scrutiny and real world tests spanning an enormous amount of time and a variety of climatic conditions. Imagine the can of worms opened if...however unlikely....a prosealed component so critical to flight safety failed. Finding the precise cause of such a failure could prove to be a time consuming and inconclusive exercise in forensic futility. Just my random thoughts.....I'm sure others will feel differently.

Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla" 110 hours
 
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szicree said:
I'd be willing to bet Van's does not perform this fix on their personal aircraft prior to next flight.
When I talked to Tom at Van's it sounded like the had already performed the SB on all their aircraft and used that experience to write up the SB. I didn't ask him directly, but that is the feeling I got.
 
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Challenger Parallel

This has pretty much been beaten to death but I want to bring up just one more angle. We are talking about what seems to be a pretty minor issue here and look at the discussion it has created.

Rewind to the Challenger incident. Paul, you can probably comment on this better than anyone. I am not suggesting that the current issue is as critical as the Challenger issue was, but then again, for the people in the RV at the time the fuel pump starts sucking air, it just might seem so.

Anyway, what I want to bring up is the human factor involved in decision making and the parallel to the the Challenger incident. In the challenger situation there were engineers saying, "Don't fly because the o-rings have never been tested at these temps." Yet the operations people either viewed it as a minor issue or let their desire to fly override their basic sense of caution.

OK, so in our case the pilots are also the builders so there is perhaps a tighter link between the person making the go/no-go decision and the folks in the cockpit. But the point is that human nature and the human pshyce is such that we can rationalize all sorts of things. Our desire to keep flying or perhaps the inconvenience of opening the tanks may be clouding our judgement or at least influencing our decision making.

Perhaps if the powers to be had listened to the engineers who designed the SRBs, the Challenger incident may not have ever happened.

Van is the engineer and he has come up with this SB to address a potential issue. It is up to the builder to make the go/no go decision.
 
Tom Maxwell said:
Rewind to the Challenger incident...

I don't have a flying RV so I kept my mouth shut on this but as an engineer, this was exactly the first thing I thought of when this erupted, oddly enough. If there had been absolutely no mention of that dope who kept on flying after clearly identifying a fuel delivery issue, I doubt anyone would have had much of a reaction to this.

It's very easy, though, to distort design failure into evidence of stellar reliability. Since only a couple of instances of this were documented, there's, like, only a 1 in 4500 chance of failure. That's amazing!

Fact is, though, it wasn't designed to work loose every X number of hours or on N number of planes. It was designed to stay put and NEVER come loose. It's entirely believable to me that even when properly torqued, the flop tube can slosh around and can work the fitting loose. As far as I can tell, Van is just donig what any good engineer would do.
 
Dumb Question

OK, I'll be the first to admit that I am confused over how to perform the safty wiring on the nut. I haven't done any safety wiring on my plane yet, but I understand the concept well enough. As I read the SB, the nut is slid off the fuel pickup tube, and a hole is drilled in it. Then it is slid back on and tightened down. Now you have a hole in the nut, but not in the 90? fitting, where does the safty wire go through? If a hole were drilled through the 90? fitting, you would have a leak.

I'm considering opening up the inspection plate and doing this since the wings are not bolted on yet. I did place a blob of Proseal on the nut, but the one picture I have doesn't show a very substantial blob, and I can't remember for sure if I added more before closing it up.
 
It is All a Risk Trade...

Guys, guys, guys....if you start going down certain paths, you are going to end up quitting flying. I understand your thought process about bringing up Challenger, and I guess that you can talk about Columbia as well. But the real problem is not in identifying risks - it is in analyzing them.

Very simple question - what is worse - an engine failure, or an in-flight fuel tank explosion? One, you land in the best available space, at the lowest possible speed, under control - and the odds say you walk away. The other, you're dead - no if's, ands, or buts. Two risks - unequal results.

I can list a thousand things that - if they go wrong - can bring a Shuttle down, inlcuding operational error. I can also list a large number of failures in an RV that can bring you down if they occur. Latent crack in the engine mount? Latent crack in the propellor blade? You can't see them - want to worry about them? How about all the other identical fuel line fittings you have in the cockpit, under the side panels, where you are not going to get at them in flight. They work lose, start leacking, and you have fuel fumes. Trust all your connections not to spark? I have thought several times about those four bolts that hold the front spar of the horizontal tail on the fuselage. Are you SURE that you did them right? Did you maybe overtorque them, stretch them, are they goign to break in tension? Ever seen an airplane lose a tail? The results are not pretty. By the way...who made those bolts anyway? Sure they aren't counterfits?

OK, sorry for all that - my point is - all flying entails some risks. You cannot, unfortunately, take the stand that you will not fly until every single risk has been eliminated. Or you can quit and take up gardening. That is NOT a devil-may-care attitude by the way - it is a realistic one. You will have to accept some risk.

So what makes a risk acceptable? well, my first test is - do I understand it? do I understand what could happen, and how it it could happen. What are the odds of it happening? Next...do I have a way to survive if it DOES happen? (You might think the next question is "What's the worst that could happen" - but that's too easy - you do everything wrong, you die! Next question...) OK, so, for example, is there a risk mitigation for this particular failure? Sure - always keep one tank at least a third full (Gee, that is close to VFR reserves, isn't it?). If the engine quits, switch tanks and try a restart. Should work, unless you are so incredibly unlucky as to have them both fall off, and you have used your reserve fuel.

OK, so why NOT do the fix (And please folks, I'm not saying that I am not going to do it - I am saying why I might not do it "before further flight...")? Well, you could do some serious damage to the tank rib getting the proseal off. You could introduce contaminants into the tank. You COULD blow yourself up messing with all that fuel and fumes. If you take the tank off, you are going to be retorquing a lot of bolts that have already been torqued at least once - they have a life limit as well. And when you have finished the fix, you still have all of the other risks inherent in the design of any airplane - and potential latent failures (when IS that defective exhaust valve going to let go?) which you haven't protected against...

I may have wondered far afild here, and I appologize to George for stealing his post-length. But I caution you about drawing parallels simply because they look convenient. Both the Challenger and the Columbia accidents are easily identifiable in retrospect. You have no idea how many people have objections before every flight - the trick is figuring out which ones are going to kill you today. It is not easy. Hind sight is always 20/20. No one, in either case, said "the hell with the risk, I don't care, let's go fly!" The best quote that I have heard is by my good friend Wayne Hale, former Flight Director, and now space Shuttle Program Manager. He said "The real failure, the failure that cost us our friends, was a failure of imagination. We never imagined that a piece of foam could knock a hole in our wing. we never imagined that a dual-O-ring seal would fail." And because we couldn't imagine it, we didn't analyze it - we didn't calculate the risk, and our friends didn't come home.

Yes, you say, but Van has imagined this risk....Sure, but If you want to stand up to the idea that you have to prevent every imaginable failure from bringing you down, I have some unfortunate ones for you to think about before flying again.

Single engine - could fail for many reaosns - better have a twin.
Main spar - not redundant. You CAN build failure-tolrant structure.
FWF fire - oil lines don't last forever, and fittings and coolers can crack....

Gentlemen, I do not want to leave you with the impression that you have touched a nerve. In fact, I love to talk about this stuff - but the field of aviation risk management is huge, and would take days of discussion, and stacks of books to do it justice. Take a look at the daily accident summary on the FAA web site - I do, every morning. It will make you realize that there are many ways to screw up an airplane - and most of them are operational errors - not mechanicals.

The bottom line is that Van wrote the service bulletin regarding a potential failure. It is totally up to you to decide when and if to do the fix. It is not up to you to tell others if and when they should do it (although you can decline to ride with them if they have not). If you're tanks are not closed up, then OF COURSE you should do it! But for those already flying, the perspective might just be a little bit different. Might be, might not. It's up to each one to decide. All of you guys still building, go do the fix - it'll take you an hour.

Let me leave you with one final thought. I am an engineer. If I tell you that your airplane is unsafe for some reason, are you automatically going to take that on blind faith and not fly it? Of course not! You are going to analyze the risk for yourself. Let the data talk, not the emotion.

Paul
 
Ironflight said:
So what makes a risk acceptable? well, my first test is - do I understand it? do I understand what could happen, and how it it could happen. What are the odds of it happening? Next...do I have a way to survive if it DOES happen? (You might think the next question is "What's the worst that could happen" - but that's too easy - you do everything wrong, you die! Next question...) OK, so, for example, is there a risk mitigation for this particular failure? Sure - always keep one tank at least a third full (Gee, that is close to VFR reserves, isn't it?). If the engine quits, switch tanks and try a restart. Should work, unless you are so incredibly unlucky as to have them both fall off, and you have used your reserve fuel.

Paul,

Shouldn't the mitigation be to keep both tanks above one third full? You have no way to know which side the failure will happen on. If I run tank A down to a very low value, switch tanks, and have the failure happen on tank B, I'm in trouble, as there is very little fuel left in tank A.

I think the mitigation has to be to always have enough fuel in either tank so you could do a comfortable diversion on that tank alone, or one third full, whichever is greater. The amount of fuel required will depend on how far you are from a suitable airfield.
 
Well, that's right Kevin, if...

If you start with the assumption that BOTH tubes have already fallen off (or might have fallen off) and launch into the blue, then what you say is 100% correct (I was very tired after a long couple of days in sims when I typed that - a good argument for always having people check your work!). Then you have to assume the worst is there. Then you have to keep fuel above the outlet fitting on both tanks all the time. (Has anyone actually done the geometry to figure out what that level is? Someone who has their wing son, but their fuel sender out could fill until the gas dribbles out I guess, then tell us how much is inthe tank...but there is a fire hazard asociated with that !)

However...worst on worst is good for theoretical analysis - but rarely occurs in the real world. Roberta suggested a good way to see if your tubes are intact at this time. There are probably others. If you do that, you can have a fairly reasonable confidence that both aren't going to fall off on the same flight. It COULD happen, but the odds are going to be very low.

So you're absolutly correct - if you want to be absolutely sure. But that is kinda my point...there are so many other things that you can't be absolutely sure about...(Oh, I almost forgot - brake fires! We have had way more than one report of brake fires and subsequent wheel pant fires! No changes to prevent those...). If you want certainty, you can never leave the ground. Each person decides, whether consciously or not, what level of risk they are willing to assume. They are also obligated to not put others at risk without them being properly informed. I will always keep more fuel on board with a passenger until I can safety the fitting for instance.

Just be as safe and informed as you can be.

Paul
 
regarding fuel levels

Paul,
You made a couple of good points there. If we don't safety the fuel intake nut, we should inform every passenger before every flight(think of it as "informed consent").

Also, sucking tanks down to VFR minimum fuel reserve is not a good idea until the nut is safetied. In fact, it really isn't a GOOD idea even if the nuts are safetied. VFR minimum fuel reserve is 30 minutes-- and if you're burning 9 gallons/hr, then you only have 4.5 gallons of fuel on board when you land. That ain't much. I would challenge anyone to come up with a solid argument to risk my beloved RV by intentionally flight planning and then flying until there was only 4.5 gallons left on board. Typically, I have at least 10 gallons on board when landing, so it is unlikely that I would ever suck fumes from one tank without having a bit more to draw from the other... unless both failed at the same time.

And very good point about the brake fires. Now that is something I actually think about.
 
SBs

Ironflight said:
...(Oh, I almost forgot - brake fires! We have had way more than one report of brake fires and subsequent wheel pant fires! No changes to prevent those...)
Very true. And Van's still sells the most flammable brake fluid out there. That is a strange inconsistency.
 
Risk Management

Thanks for the discussion Paul. Somehow I knew you would have some great input to the discussion. ;) I love talking about the human psyche and our thought processes as they relate to rationalization of ideas, beliefs, and behaviors. I agree with a lot of what you say.

We all know that flight has its inherent risks and that engineering is largely a series of compromises. We also all agree that not every perceived or imaginable risk can nor should be eliminated prior to flight. I think you said it very eloguently that if this were the case we wouldn't get off the ground.

My point in bringing up the Challenger parallel was simply to point out that being a homosapien carries with it certain emotional pitfalls that may result in biased or clouded judgement. You are much closer to the NASA decision making process than probably anyone else on this forum so you know how decisions are made. What I have to go by are the documentaries and news reports (not always unbiased) that I have seen. I don't for one minute think that someone blatantly stood up and said, "Dang, those o-rings are totally unsafe but we are going to fly anyway." But I do believe that the decision to fly was biased by internal pressures to make up time on the flight schedule and to prevent further embarassment from yet another postponed flight. Again, I may be totally wrong on my understanding but I think this is the understanding of most people in the US and around the world.

So yes, I agree, we can never mitigate every POTENTIAL problem. But in the case of the Challenger, correct me if I am wrong, there was evidence of o-ring leakage on previous flights and the engineers concluded that the extremely cold weather (for Florida) would only exacerbate the problem. If this is true, it was not a case of not addressing every potential problem, but a case of letting the pressures to fly override clear evidence of a real and known problem and the recommendations of the designers.

I know there must be dozens of objections to flight on every mission and I suspect a great deal of them are simply CYA just in case something does happen. It is top managements job to filter through all of the objections and to match them up with real data to make the final go/no-go decision. I guess that is why top management are paid the big bucks. :) Yes hindsight is always 20/20 and I certainly am not saying that anyone maliciously put another human being's life in jeopardy, I don't think that for one minute. But from what I know, in the Challenger incident, the people making the decisions failed to tie the facts (known prior leakages) to the untested (unusually cold weather) to the concerns of the designing engineers (we can't guarantee they will hold) and as a result, people died. I don't subscribe to the notion of "fog of war" or "blaming society" or "institutional decision making" as I view these as excuses to keep from holding individuals accountable. I don't know for sure, but I suspect there were a significant number of individuals within NASA who could have stood up and said, "Hey, with what we know today, I will not endorse pushing the go button." Those responsible for making the final go/no-go decision and failing to do so are the ones I hold accountable for the death of the Challenger crew. What I suspect happened (only speculation based on my involvement in many corporate decision making scenarios) is that political pressure and the potential backlash of being labeled as "one standing in the way of getting a bird up" caused a lot of really smart people to override or simply not object to what they really understood to be a less than acceptable risk.

And that is the parallel I am making here. Van has identified what he consdiers, as the designer and producer of these airplanes, to be a serious enough problem to issue a mandatory SB. We can debate whether or not it should be an SB and we can debate whether or not Van is addressing a real problem or trying to cover his backside and we can try to second guess him and come up with what we think is a better solution and we can try to convince Van to change his mind. But this is not a democratic decision making process. The reality is that the SB is not based on what a majority of the builders think is best. The bottom line is that Van, after his careful thought and consideration and more knowledge about these planes than anyone else, has issued what he is calling a mandatory SB and he further qualifies it by stating that it should be completed prior to next flight. We as the flight directors and engineers of our aircraft must now take that data and make the go/no-go decisions for our birds.

I don't see this as addressing potential or imaginable problems at all. And we can try to poo-poo it away by saying, "What about the other upteen fittings in the plane and the flim-flam and the watch-a-ma-callit and the who-dunits? If they fail the plane is going into the ground as well." I say, "so what." This SB is addressing one specific real problem that has been identified and Van has determined to be serious enough to make it mandatory.

I tend to look for the good in people, but as we all know, a lot of good people (being human as they are) sometimes don't make the best decisions due to outside pressures or internal desires. We see this a lot in GA and all walks of life. In this regard, I think the decision that each builder makes is very much like the decision made in the Challenger situation. With all of our human quirks and biases, it is very difficult to step back and make a totally objective decision on whether to drill out and replace that rivet, replace that skin because a scratch is a little too deep, or the other thousands of decisions and compromises that must be made during the course of building an airplane. Over the years we have tried to remove the objectivity from these decisions by creating standards and guldelines. And in this case, Van (who I consider to be the final authority on these matters) has tried to help us out by making the decision for us. He has made his recommendation and all we can do is decide whether or not we will comply with his recommendation.

I know that if I were in a flying status, I would ground my bird and take the time, as inconvenient as it may be, to complete the SB.

Good luck to everyone and thanks Paul, I appreciate your knowledge and insight.
 
Ironflight said:
But the real problem is not in identifying risks - it is in analyzing them.
You'll get no argument from me :)

Ironflight said:
...OK, sorry for all that - my point is - all flying entails some risks. You cannot, unfortunately, take the stand that you will not fly until every single risk has been eliminated. Or you can quit and take up gardening. That is NOT a devil-may-care attitude by the way - it is a realistic one. You will have to accept some risk.

Reread my post. It wasn't about flying at all. It was a about Vans decision to issue an SB.

Ironflight said:
...we never imagined that a dual-O-ring seal would fail." And because we couldn't imagine it, we didn't analyze it - we didn't calculate the risk, and our friends didn't come home.
I'm sorry, Paul, but I respectfully disagree. The evidence was all there and very clear. The lesson of Challenger is the slippery slope when you accept design failure as signs of success. O-ring degredation was typical on the shuttle flights. Okay, you never had total burn through, but you always had SOME. So someone analyzed it and saw (and I'm not using real numbers here) that it only got through, say, 15% of the first O-Ring. Somehow this got transformed into 85% "safety margin". Problem is, they weren't designed to degrade AT ALL, therefore the safety margin was actually negative per the design. The design failure was spun and turned into design success! Yes yes, this is all Monday monring quarterbacking and hindsight, but this isn't a critique of NASA at all. I think they do, and have done, a fine job across the board. It's a critical review of some of the things that went wrong so that we don't repeat it. It will have all been for nothing if we water it down and pretend it was just a big accident. It was a systematic breakdown of sound engineering. As it applyies to our little planes, we've been bashing Van for a week because of this useless, unnescesary, CYA SB. Why is it unnescessary? Why, because only a couple have come loose. Design success? The fact that any came loose is cause for concern since that's not what it's designed to do.

Ironflight said:
...It is not up to you to tell others if and when they should do it (although you can decline to ride with them if they have not).
I didn't even touch on this, and I wouldn't dream of telling anyone else what to do. Personally, I think as long as you're aware of the potential, this is mostly a non-issue. If it were me, I would simply safety wire it at my next annual.

So this isn't at all about flight safety or whether or not someone should perform the SB. It's about the faulty risk assesment that's been flying back and forth. Make the decisions for yourselves, but at least make it based on something other than "it's only happened a couple of times".
 
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Where will it all end?

Maybe it is time to lighten up this thread and begin a listing of controversial topics with catchy titles:

1. the "B-nut"
2. the "O-ring"
3. the "dimpled chad"
4. the "magic bullet"
5...

Timless classics that we never grow weary of debating. Feel free to add to the list. :D
 
choices

redbeardmark said:
Maybe it is time to lighten up this thread :D

This has been a fairly interesting thread. BUT, Vans has stated their position. Probably had some serious discussion among the team. Decided to issue the SB. Ignore it, inspect it, comply or wait. It's a pain in the #&* but, we all have the choice whether to do it or not. Since I've decided to wait till my full blown annual next month, (Like Paul) I'd like to see a new thread titled "here's some tips on complying with the fuel pick-up SB" :)
 
QB's--the risk is this

My feeling is that most if not all QB kits and QB tanks where shipped with only hand tightened fuel pick-up tube fittings. This is how my RV-9A QB was shipped like others I have been reading about (see "Mandatory fuel tube bulletin" started by Fred... AND also "New mandatory fuel tube service bulletin SB-02-23" reply by Robertahegy). I upgraded my fuel tubes to the screen type tube that Van's sells, and I used EZ-Turn on the threads, making sure they where tight and properly aligned at assembly and install. However, the original tubes were loose, but I also assumed that I needed to tighten them after looking over the sub-assembly--that's just how I work.

Now, since I have not gotten any response from Van's on other loose QB tubes, I can assume that they know QB?s shipped have a problem. Until Van's can provide me with data showing that a properly tightened fuel tube fitting can come loose, I will continue flying unless I notice an issue with fuel pressure in either tank (have not seen this). The reason for that is because I know it was done correctly, and I think that there is more risk in opening up fuel tanks in my case, so I'm happy with my decision until Van's can tell me why a tight AN fitting can come loose. If they can, then they should also tell the FAA, so they can place an AD on every AN fitting ever made.

Now in saying this, if you have not completed your kit and don't have gas in your tank, I would do the mod. If you have a QB and don't remember tightening your AN nuts, then you have a very high risk. Unfortunately Van's is not forthcoming with data on QB tubes at this time.

John :cool:
 
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fuel tank service bulleten

Builders,
I guess I am missing something. No other AN fitting in the fuel system is safety wired. Also, the AN fittings are, as I understand it, not supposed to have anything on them except an Aluminum to Aluminum fitting. If Van's shipped these fittings in the QB kits un torgued then that is another matter. They should say so. Also, as I understand it, the unfortunate pilot who had an off field landing had warnings that something wasn't right when his tanks got to the level that the AN fitting was uncovered. My son put the floats together so if checking with him that the AN nut was proper tightned I won't do the Service bulletin, as I think it is unnecessary. Tell me where I'm wrong.
John Stiegelmeyer
 
Just a thot

jstiegel said:
Builders,
I guess I am missing something. No other AN fitting in the fuel system is safety wired. Also, the AN fittings are, as I understand it, not supposed to have anything on them except an Aluminum to Aluminum fitting. If Van's shipped these fittings in the QB kits un torgued then that is another matter. They should say so. Also, as I understand it, the unfortunate pilot who had an off field landing had warnings that something wasn't right when his tanks got to the level that the AN fitting was uncovered. My son put the floats together so if checking with him that the AN nut was proper tightned I won't do the Service bulletin, as I think it is unnecessary. Tell me where I'm wrong.
John Stiegelmeyer


From an outsider looking in. Ya might want to go check the "informal poll" that was started on this topic. For those that "swore" they had tightened their fittings, it seems that something around 25% were *loose* - most were finger tight, but not wrench tight when they checked them. I don't know if it has something to do with the "quick built" versions of if it has something to do with and initial tightening that needs to be re-tightened to be secure. (ya know, after the fitting has taken a "set"). But 25% (approx) seems like a pretty high number, especially for those that "swore" they were tight.

For the approx 4 hrs of work to do one side, say 8hrs to do them both, it certainly sounds like cheap insurance, especially when you don't have to hire an A&P to do the work.

You are the manufacture, so you get to make the final call. My butt in the seat would want to do it based upon the "non-formal" imperical data.

YMMV
 
There has been at least one failure that was not on a QB tank. An RV-6 guy reported on the RV-List that he had an engine failure due to his flop tube becoming disconnected inside the tank. QB tanks don't have flop tubes, unless a builder does the mod himself.

I agree that if Van was shipping QB tanks with the fittings not torqued, that this was a huge mistake, and he should specifically tell us this. But I can imagine that the company lawyer has different advice.
 
Legal Liability or Engineering

Surely our dilemma is caused by the fact that we do NOT know what motivated Vans to issue the Service Buletin. Was it an Engineering based decsision or a Liability based one.
Here we are debating the Engineering issue, why this nut needs to be lock wire and not others, when we don't know if it is really and engineering issue.
If it is a liability issue -which I doubt we will ever know- we are agonising over a non event.......... provided you know you torqued them.......... and every other nut.
Pete
 
QB Torque.

Kevin,
There is a note somewhere (Construction Manual?) that advises QB builders to check the Torque of the Fuel Tank Attach bolts. (I did mine)
I suspect Vans is concerned because there is no directive to do the same with the Fuel Pickup Tube.
So, the point is, Vans are aware and comfortable with shipping parts that are not torqued.
But as my L.A.M.E. (Oz for aircraft Engineer) advised me, "Don't put anything together temporarily."
Pete.
 
My $.02 worth

Very interesting hearing everyone's thoughts and opinions as to the fuel pickup tube issue. Especially the debate about whether it is primarily a liability vs safety issue. I finally decided there was enough justification of both to open up one tank and do it just to see how difficult it would be. I am fortunate to be recently retired so I could spare the time and the day I started the project the typical Texas wind was trying to blow the doors off the hangars at Hicks Field so I wasn't anxious to fly anywhere. By the end of the day I had both pickup tube/float assemblies on the bench, safety wired, cleaned and ready to replace. Unfortunately, I am still waiting on the gaskets and fresh Proseal I ordered from Van's about a week ago.

I wouldn't know about the other models but I found it possible to remove the complete access cover from my RV-8 without removing the fuel quantity sender. By working from below using a combination of a dull putty knife, some wood shims and very carefully rotating the assembly just right it will slip right out once you get the gasket unstuck. Of course if you try to force it you risk bending the float assembly.

I want to publicly thank Jay Pratt at RV Central for advising me to install those access covers with hex-head #8 screws that can be easily removed with an Allen socket and a ratchet rather than the Philips head screws.

By the way, both my pickup tube fittings were tight enough to never come loose but I'm still glad I did the mod and so far, it really was not as big a job as I expected it to be.
 
drill thru the proseal?

I took off my fuel cover plate last night and observed that the AN fitting was covered in proseal. Although I a confident that it will not loosen, I will go ahead and perfrom the SB because it seems the prudent (legal) thing to do.

I am considering leaving the prosealed nut and fitting together and drilling thru the proseal and nut, hopefully without hitting the threads of the fitting.

Is there a reason not to drill through the assembly? It would be much easier than trying to remove the proseal from the fitting.
 
tonyjohnson said:
I took off my fuel cover plate last night and observed that the AN fitting was covered in proseal. Although I a confident that it will not loosen, I will go ahead and perfrom the SB because it seems the prudent (legal) thing to do.

I am considering leaving the prosealed nut and fitting together and drilling thru the proseal and nut, hopefully without hitting the threads of the fitting.

Is there a reason not to drill through the assembly? It would be much easier than trying to remove the proseal from the fitting.


Tony,
My fitting was completely Prosealed also. I used an Exacto knife to cut away the Proseal on the facing of the nut where I started drilling and where I was going to end drilling. This made it easier to see what angle to hold the drill so as not to (hopefully) drill into the threads. I plan to re-apply Proseal over the area I cut away.

Question: What are the ramifications of drilling into the threads? My thinking is if I drilled into the threads the fuel pump will be sucking some air along with the fuel when the fuel level is below the safety wired point. This doesn't sound good to me.

Is there anyway to test for this before re-installing the access plate? I guess I could put a balloon over the wire mesh end of the pickup tube and blow it up from the outside end of the access plate fitting. Once blown up, you can seal the access plate fitting and see if air escapes. Any thoughts?
 
Drilling into the threads would not cause a leak. The threads simply hold the fitting together. The seal is between the tubing flare and the fitting. To cause a leak, you would have to drill all the way through to the inside of the fitting.
Mel...DAR
 
frustrated!!!

I prosealed my sender & tankplate to the tanks, without gaskets about a year and a half ago, with the pro-seal that comes from Van's in the two mixing tubes. This stuff is tough!

I've been in the refrigeration/heating business for 35 years, and am well aquainted with flare fittings and the fact that I torque them. I also prosealed the "questioned" fittings from the fuel pickup tube to the plate, and have the anti-rotation bracket installed.

Today, I figured I'd work on this SB, and start with removing the smaller sender plate first. I removed the phillips screws which were not much of a problem, then cleaned around the outside with a sharpened plexi-glass stick (as mentioned elsewhere), which works okay.

At that point, I started with a thin but strong putty knife, and a wooden mallet to loosen the pro-seal, and hoping it would just pop loose. As I said, this stuff is very tough, and is holding as though it's welded!

It does not want to give an inch, and like many other items in the RV building process, I now feel that I'm going to damage parts, rather than help the situation.

At this point, I feel like ordering more proseal, put it around some new scews; proseal around the edge of the sending unit plate; hope I can clean any proseal residue from the screws I removed that might be in the tank..........and forget the whole thing!

Any motivational thoughts here?

In the meantime, I have no regrets that I went the proseal "only" route to start with. From this experience, it's easy to see that it can hold up much better than any gasket with fuel lube or proseal/gasket combo.

L.Adamson -- RV6A
 
After being ticked yesterday, about removing the seemingly impossible prosealed only ---- tank plates; I went about it again today, with a thin putty knife (six inches wide), and thin wood wedges cut from pine. It worked, they're now off, and of course the nuts were prosealed on, just like I thought they were. But now I safety wire as in the SB, and feel good...........I guess.

L.Adamson RV6A
 
Coupling Nut Torque

Could someone reassure me on the torque value Vans gives for the AN818-6D coupling nut on the fuel tank pick-up? The Service Notice from Vans call for 110 to 130 in. lb torque on the AN818-6D coupling nut. This sure feels like a lot more torque than I have used before on these fittings. At 110 in. lb the sleeve is making a noticeable indentation into the bottom side of the flair. Loosen and then tighten the nut a few times to the specified torque and the sleeve has really pushed into and distorted the underside of the flair. I am more comfortable with the ?tighten till snug then go one more flat? method. This gives a torque of about 70 in. lbs. It seems to me that 110 to 130 in. lbs will cause thinning of the flare and possible cracking problems in the future especially if the nut is re-tightened a few times?? :confused:

Fin 9A
Australia
 
I have been doing the finger tight plus one flat ... that feels pretty tight to me on most of the fittings.

T.
 
More numbers

Finley Atherton said:
Could someone reassure me on the torque value Vans gives for the AN818-6D coupling nut on the fuel tank pick-up? The Service Notice from Vans call for 110 to 130 in. lb torque on the AN818-6D coupling nut. This sure feels like a lot more torque than I have used before on these fittings. At 110 in. lb the sleeve is making a noticeable indentation into the bottom side of the flair. Loosen and then tighten the nut a few times to the specified torque and the sleeve has really pushed into and distorted the underside of the flair. I am more comfortable with the ?tighten till snug then go one more flat? method. This gives a torque of about 70 in. lbs. It seems to me that 110 to 130 in. lbs will cause thinning of the flare and possible cracking problems in the future especially if the nut is re-tightened a few times?? :confused:

Fin 9A
Australia

Fin,

I found a table in my Airframe and Powerplant Mechanics Handbook published by the FAA (EA-AC 65-9A) that give some numbers.....

For our RVs, and with Aluminum Alloy tubing..

-4 tubing 40 to 65 inch lbs
-6 tubing 75 to 125 inch lbs

Not quite as high as you (Vans) quote above.... this is an official source, so the numbers should be good.... :)

There is a lot of stuff here that makes good reading, Chapter 5 is here...

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulator...e3daac121862569f1005f80f1/$FILE/Chapter 5.pdf

Table referenced is on page 19

Index for the entire book (500+ pages) is here

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulator...A563729E3DAAC121862569F1005F80F1?OpenDocument

"Feels pretty tight" is probably not a good standard or thing to tell your DAR.... :D

gil in Tucson - was a study book for my Airframe rating....
 
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