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Guidance Needed for Serious Hangar Rash

Well -- then what your really saying is that Van's instructions for installing these wing skins is "bad advanced" -- I built my RV-9A, and I can see the logic! Why don't you offer to help rebuilt this wing?
I have no idea where the OP is located. In this case the "wing rigidity is well established by the undamaged leading edge and inboard section. The process I would use is called "matched hole tooling" and was used on Thorp designed airplanes including all Thorp T18's. The process is explains in great detail in a series of Sport Aviation Articles in the 1964 era. Still available online from EAA.
This is a very simple repair. Most of the "advisors" on here are making it seem VERY complicated.
If I knew where the OP lives I might offer to help.
 
Hi Jon, I had an appointment with Synergy in Eugene to complete the rear wing spar and rear horizontal stabilizer spar service bulletins on Lee's old RV-4, they even collected the parts from Van's for me, it was scheduled almost a year in advance. One day a box shoed up from Synergy with my parts and the explanation that they were closing their shop in Eugene and would only have the shop in Gorgia. Google maps still show them in Eugene and Synergy website still shows the Eugene phone number, I just tried calling it and got no answer, maybe they're still there, I'm not sure. I ended up having the guys at Aero Maintenance at Pearson Field do the work, they did a very good job.
Synergy Eugene is still around. The operation in Eugene is smaller than it used to be and recently they have only been doing “special projects” - like the DeltaHawk RV-14’s and soon an RV-10. You might try email versus the phone. [email protected]
 
I guess if you built a Thorp T18, then you go WAY back!

It's also about laying on your back with a heavy rivet gun and bucking bar in-hand, which makes this VERY tendinous end strenuous -- maybe if I was 25-years younger, it might be a bit easer, but why do things the hard way anyways??? (n) o_O(n)
And drilling lots of rivets on the bottom skins with all of the shavings falling on your face.😳
I have done repairs like this with the wing in place on the airplane, so I know that it is possible, but removing the wing is not all that difficult and makes the rest of the work much easier in my opinion.
 
Thanks. Hangar mate has given her auto insurer the heads up, but me talking to them firsthand is probably the next step to learn what they need before I start taking the plane apart for a deeper inspection.

Emailed Gallagher (who handles my a/c and hangar insurance) this morning and, probably no real surprise to most of you here, Kendra phoned me not 10 minutes later(!) to explain how it would work if for any reason my insurance had to get involved. So far just notifying Gallagher is sufficient on my end. If my insurers need to be brought into the issue we will deal with that at that time.

Still working on tracking down a good AP and/or somebody like Synergy to be able to give me a good inspection and/or repair quote. This is all happening in last 48 hours when everything has been closed for the holidays so it’s definitely slow on this front.

Bit closer inspection this morning so far is confirming the original cursory inspection I reported on yesterday morning, with the addition of significant oil canning in second from outboard bay on the top and bottom and possible slight distortion of the next rib inboard.

Thanks for everyone’s tips and encouragement. It is a bummer but, while I love the plane, it’s just an object. This is all just a hassle more than anything.
You will love it again 😄
 
You know -- it's easer to pull a wing off of an RV-9 than an RV-9A since you don't have that landing gear mount getting in the way of the wing attach bolts. Just need to remove the right seat pan, and then remove the 10-wing attach bolts. And, also remove the rear and forward connect bolts. And, here's a slick way to hold the wing in place while doing that -- a simple wooden lifting platform with straps and foam pad between to protect the wing during removal and/or installation. Van's instructions recommends getting your buddies to help and a case of beer. 🍺

1767397526362.png
 
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You know -- it's easer to pull a wing off of an RV-9 than an RV-9A since you don't have that landing gear mount getting in the way of the wing attach bolts. Just need to remove the right seat pan, and then remove the 10-wing attach bolts. And, also remove the rear and forward connect bolts. And, here's a slick way to hold the wing in place while doing that -- a simple wooden lifting platform with straps and foam pad between to protect the wing during removal and/or installation. Van's instructions recommends getting your buddies to help and a case of beer. 🍺

View attachment 106272
Nice! I used a couple office desk chairs but that hoist looks pretty slick! The biggest challenge will be getting the 10 wing bolts out!
 
I guess if you built a Thorp T18, then you go WAY back!

It's also about laying on your back with a heavy rivet gun and bucking bar in-hand, which makes this VERY tendinous end strenuous -- maybe if I was 25-years younger, it might be a bit easer, but why do things the hard way anyways??? (n) o_O(n)
I never said I built a T18. I did study the build manuals extensively. I joined EAA in 1959 and com,pleted my first airplane, a Wittman Tailwind in July 1964. That airplane led directly to a job as apprentice mechanic for a mid sized FBO wheich led to Comm, instrument and multi which led to flying charter for tha same FBO
 
I never said I built a T18. I did study the build manuals extensively. I joined EAA in 1959 and com,pleted my first airplane, a Wittman Tailwind in July 1964. That airplane led directly to a job as apprentice mechanic for a mid sized FBO wheich led to Comm, instrument and multi which led to flying charter for tha same FBO
The late John Thorp was a Lockheed Aeronautical Engineer dating to the 1930's. He designed and tyrpe certifiacted the Thorp 211 Skyscooter, designedt he T18, the Wing Derringer , preliminary design of the Pipte Cherokee in addition to his work at Lockheed. He is generally considered the inventor of thwe matched hole jigless assembly method for sheet metal parts.
 
The original T-18 (released in 1963) was provided from plans, where builders created their own parts from raw aluminum and drill their own holes -- right? All the guys I knew who built the Thorp T-18 built them from plans and raw aluminum stock and took many years to complete. The Modern kit version was named the S-18, which was released in 1985 and finally used the matched-hole concept. Now -- didn't the Wittman Tailwind use a hybrid construction of welded steel tube fuselage, wood wings with fabric/fiberglass covering and only a few sheet metal components (like flaps and ailerons). Out of curiosity, have you built an RV yourself?
You continue to show your ignorance. I was at Rockford EAA in early 60's and watched John Thorp and his helpers assemble a T18 fuselage in a forum tent using matched hole process. no jigs. There has never been a kit for the T18 or S18 that is close to the completion level of an RV. However the complete kit did not start with the RV but with the Christen Eagle.
The first plans built T18's were built in a very short time period. Like the RV's there were a few T18's that took decades to build but that was not the norm. You are close but no cigar on the Tailwind construction. The wings are plywood covered and then fabric or deck cloth/epoxy over the plywood. Built to plans the flaps/ailerons are welded steel fabric covered.
 
You continue to show your ignorance. I was at Rockford EAA in early 60's and watched John Thorp and his helpers assemble a T18 fuselage in a forum tent using matched hole process. no jigs. There has never been a kit for the T18 or S18 that is close to the completion level of an RV. However the complete kit did not start with the RV but with the Christen Eagle.
The first plans built T18's were built in a very short time period. Like the RV's there were a few T18's that took decades to build but that was not the norm. You are close but no cigar on the Tailwind construction. The wings are plywood covered and then fabric or deck cloth/epoxy over the plywood. Built to plans the flaps/ailerons are welded steel fabric covered.
How about you guys go argue on a Thorp forum instead of hijacking this thread?
 
You continue to show your ignorance. I was at Rockford EAA in early 60's and watched John Thorp and his helpers assemble a T18 fuselage in a forum tent using matched hole process. no jigs. There has never been a kit for the T18 or S18 that is close to the completion level of an RV. However the complete kit did not start with the RV but with the Christen Eagle.
The first plans built T18's were built in a very short time period. Like the RV's there were a few T18's that took decades to build but that was not the norm. You are close but no cigar on the Tailwind construction. The wings are plywood covered and then fabric or deck cloth/epoxy over the plywood. Built to plans the flaps/ailerons are welded steel fabric covered.
The first T18 to fly was built by Bill Warwick. First flight May 12, 1964. It could have been earlier but Bill was constantly outpacing the availability of the plans which were a work in progress. The T18 concept was announced in Feb 1962 And the series of 14 built articles started in May 1962
 
That is old school! 😃

My hangar neighbor has a Tailwind. Terrific airplane. I think of it as a high-wing RV-4.
Dorothy Wittman called the T18 "a upside down Tailwind".
My original intent in discussing theT18 construction methods/matched hole jig less construction methods was to convince the OP: please don't remove the wing, no need for jigs, a very basic and simple replacement of a couple of skins, some ribs and the tip.
 
Dorothy Wittman called the T18 "a upside down Tailwind".
My original intent in discussing theT18 construction methods/matched hole jig less construction methods was to convince the OP: please don't remove the wing, no need for jigs, a very basic and simple replacement of a couple of skins, some ribs and the tip.
Not saying he should or should not remove the wing but dang, that's pretty good being able to determine a "simple replacement of a couple of skins, some ribs, and a tip" from a few pictures.

I'd reserve judgement until there was a bit more information as the main spar and aft spar were never intended to carry loads in those directions. They may be fine; they may not but being able to tell from a couple of pictures, well that's impressive...
 
Not saying he should or should not remove the wing but dang, that's pretty good being able to determine a "simple replacement of a couple of skins, some ribs, and a tip" from a few pictures.

I'd reserve judgement until there was a bit more information as the main spar and aft spar were never intended to carry loads in those directions. They may be fine; they may not but being able to tell from a couple of pictures, well that's impressive...
Of course the entire wing should be carefully inspected. The first step would be to remove the outboard skins and inspect the spars in that area. Of course the wing attach area should be carefully inspected.
 
Synergy Eugene is still around. The operation in Eugene is smaller than it used to be and recently they have only been doing “special projects” - like the DeltaHawk RV-14’s and soon an RV-10. You might try email versus the phone. [email protected]
Ok that's good, I was only giving them a call to see if they were still there, the gall on the phone a couple years ago was emphatic that they were closing down and leaving and could not honor my scheduled work, something must have changed or they just didn't want to do the job, it worked out better anyway having the work done on my home field.
 
Ok that's good, I was only giving them a call to see if they were still there, the gall on the phone a couple years ago was emphatic that they were closing down and leaving and could not honor my scheduled work, something must have changed or they just didn't want to do the job, it worked out better anyway having the work done on my home field.
COVID restrictions in Oregon were severe and badly hurt small businesses like Synergy. They did shut down for a period of time, but two of their technicians worked hard to reopen a much smaller “special projects” operation. Builders that were able to - moved their projects to Synergy Air South, as restrictions in Georgia for businesses were much less strict.

I have no doubt that they wanted to help you - they just weren’t able to.
 
I do aircraft structural repair for a living, and have done a few RV repairs. Vans matched hole tooling makes repairing their airplanes very simple!

Others have given you good advice on the insurance end, and it sounds like you are on a good path for that.

I would get a local IA to very carefully inspect the fuselage structure where the wing bolts up and the surrounding area. Look for ripples in the skin, popped rivets, oil canning, etc... Obviously you can do this too, but the point is you want a second set of trained eyes. It's not uncommon to see RV's with wing prangs also have damage to the aft fuse area. Also, carefully look at the spars. Send a borescope in there if necessary. Again, looking for sheared rivets, oil canning, etc... Finally, I would replace the mounting bolts, and maybe dye pen the holes, as well as check them for elongation.

All this may sound like overkill, and it probably is. But it's a peace of mind thing. You mentioned the damage history may diminish the value (more on that later), and that you yourself were concerned about flying the repair afterwards. One of the ways you diminish this is by going to extra mile. When you explain to the buyer "yes it was pranged, but we did this and this and this...." it quickly overwhelms their concern.

Assuming the spars are good (if not it's a no brainer, just build a new wing) and the fuse is good, then just order the replacement parts (skins, ribs, tip, etc..) from Vans and repair it. As others have mentioned, drilling out rivets goes quickly once you get into the rhythm. You are looking at a couple hours. Use new, sharp bits, good light, glasses if you need them, center punch the dimples first, and just start drilling. On -3 rivets I like to use a 3/32 bit instead of #40 as there's a slight less chance of opening up the original hole. After the head is snapped off DO NOT punch the rest of the rivet out. The rib flanges are too soft and not supported, you'll just bend them. Wait until you get the skin off then remove the tails with a side cutters, vampliers, or drill them the rest of the way out. Quite frankly this is the putzy part.

Wing on or wing off is sort of personal preference. Obviously it would be easier if the wing was off, but you have to weigh that with the hassle of R and R'ing the wing, and the Waddington Effect. If you do it wing on you'll need a million clecos as the wing may sag and you need the skins the pull it back into shape. I would probably do it wing on. The build manual and plans can help on the reassembly, but you'll likely be installing parts out of sequence so won't have step by step instructions. Expect to spend a few hours just looking at the plane and thinking about things. It's "gonna take sum figurin". For me anyway, this is the fun part, and quite frankly where I make my money. (Fixing things other people can't figure out how to fix.)

For the insurance estimate (again, assuming the fuse is good) I would price out a wing kit and the labor to build it. That's the worst case scenario. What you don't want to happen is to assume just a tip repair, get the insurance payout, and then find out as you open it up and get into it that the spar is indeed damaged or something like that. I do insurance estimates all the time, and the insurance company expects the worst case scenario, factory new parts.

Residual value with damage history. This is a tough one, especially for me as I live it. Properly done repairs that return the plane to original (or often times better) condition should not affect value....but it does. To be honest, most of these repairs are way less invasive than an engine overhaul, or a panel redo (think about how many critical systems a glass panel install touches!!). However buyers don't usually understand structural repairs and as a result it's a red flag. As mentioned above you can alleviate some of that with thorough repairs and excellent documention. Also, time heals all wounds, in this case literally. One year from now if you sell the plane, you'll take a hit 10-20%. 10 years from now, probably not but it will be a discussion, and 20 years from now it will be a glance over in the logs.

Finally, no shame if you decide to flip this one to a pro. You built the airplane and have the capability to repair it, but that doesn't mean you have to. If someone else touches your plane the fingerprints will polish out quickly and no one will ever know he was there.
 
I do aircraft structural repair for a living, and have done a few RV repairs. Vans matched hole tooling makes repairing their airplanes very simple!

Others have given you good advice on the insurance end, and it sounds like you are on a good path for that.

I would get a local IA to very carefully inspect the fuselage structure where the wing bolts up and the surrounding area. Look for ripples in the skin, popped rivets, oil canning, etc... Obviously you can do this too, but the point is you want a second set of trained eyes. It's not uncommon to see RV's with wing prangs also have damage to the aft fuse area. Also, carefully look at the spars. Send a borescope in there if necessary. Again, looking for sheared rivets, oil canning, etc... Finally, I would replace the mounting bolts, and maybe dye pen the holes, as well as check them for elongation.

All this may sound like overkill, and it probably is. But it's a peace of mind thing. You mentioned the damage history may diminish the value (more on that later), and that you yourself were concerned about flying the repair afterwards. One of the ways you diminish this is by going to extra mile. When you explain to the buyer "yes it was pranged, but we did this and this and this...." it quickly overwhelms their concern.

Assuming the spars are good (if not it's a no brainer, just build a new wing) and the fuse is good, then just order the replacement parts (skins, ribs, tip, etc..) from Vans and repair it. As others have mentioned, drilling out rivets goes quickly once you get into the rhythm. You are looking at a couple hours. Use new, sharp bits, good light, glasses if you need them, center punch the dimples first, and just start drilling. On -3 rivets I like to use a 3/32 bit instead of #40 as there's a slight less chance of opening up the original hole. After the head is snapped off DO NOT punch the rest of the rivet out. The rib flanges are too soft and not supported, you'll just bend them. Wait until you get the skin off then remove the tails with a side cutters, vampliers, or drill them the rest of the way out. Quite frankly this is the putzy part.

Wing on or wing off is sort of personal preference. Obviously it would be easier if the wing was off, but you have to weigh that with the hassle of R and R'ing the wing, and the Waddington Effect. If you do it wing on you'll need a million clecos as the wing may sag and you need the skins the pull it back into shape. I would probably do it wing on. The build manual and plans can help on the reassembly, but you'll likely be installing parts out of sequence so won't have step by step instructions. Expect to spend a few hours just looking at the plane and thinking about things. It's "gonna take sum figurin". For me anyway, this is the fun part, and quite frankly where I make my money. (Fixing things other people can't figure out how to fix.)

For the insurance estimate (again, assuming the fuse is good) I would price out a wing kit and the labor to build it. That's the worst case scenario. What you don't want to happen is to assume just a tip repair, get the insurance payout, and then find out as you open it up and get into it that the spar is indeed damaged or something like that. I do insurance estimates all the time, and the insurance company expects the worst case scenario, factory new parts.

Residual value with damage history. This is a tough one, especially for me as I live it. Properly done repairs that return the plane to original (or often times better) condition should not affect value....but it does. To be honest, most of these repairs are way less invasive than an engine overhaul, or a panel redo (think about how many critical systems a glass panel install touches!!). However buyers don't usually understand structural repairs and as a result it's a red flag. As mentioned above you can alleviate some of that with thorough repairs and excellent documention. Also, time heals all wounds, in this case literally. One year from now if you sell the plane, you'll take a hit 10-20%. 10 years from now, probably not but it will be a discussion, and 20 years from now it will be a glance over in the logs.

Finally, no shame if you decide to flip this one to a pro. You built the airplane and have the capability to repair it, but that doesn't mean you have to. If someone else touches your plane the fingerprints will polish out quickly and no one will ever know he was there.
Another really, really helpful post. Thank you!
 
Of course it does. The car is (presumably) insured. Any damage it does while being used in good faith will be covered.
A friend forgot to remove the car from his hangar before pushing the airplane in. He had to file both insurance and car claims. His aircraft insurance actually went down the following year while his car insurance went up. The car only had damage to a taillight while his cardinal had to have the stabilator replaced and re-painted.
 
Just a follow on update... I'm sure everyone will be happy to know that my hangar mate's State Farm auto policy has already accepted full liability and they have determined the damage is only going to take 3.2 hours (yes, exactly 3.2) of labor and $482 in parts to fix. They carefully wrote up that repair estimate based on 5 pictures I sent them and zero minutes of them actually inspecting the plane in person! Dealing with them could get interesting!:ROFLMAO::confused:
 
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