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Factory Info: Parts with Laser Cut Holes and Potential for Cracks

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This is a WAY off-topic...

but I'm now the volunteer biology prof at the local Christian school, and I'm going to need to buy my class of four 10th graders some kind of workable microscope for our lab exercises. I note that several VAFers have posted about handheld microscopes for "metallurgical" use on laser-cut parts. Clearly, the technology has changed quite a bit since I was in school - both the advent of digital displays and the entry of cheap and cheaply-made Chinese goods into the void left by US manufacturing.

That said, I would appreciate any recommendations from actual users of today's classroom-level microscope technology for slide microscopy (as opposed to surface-mount soldering and numismatic uses), since the array of stuff on Amazon and the scores of conflicting reviews are quite bewildering. I've pored over the Amazon offerings enough now to arrive at paralysis by analysis, but I have to decide on one in the next few days at most. If you have bought/used one of these sub-$200 digital scopes in the last couple of years and would share your experience with me, I'd appreciate a PM! Thank you.
 
tfriske said:
A number of folks in this thread have either run their own prep/dimpling experiments on LCPs at home, or have gone back and inspected previously dimpled LCPs, and have had similar results--lots of cracks.

I'm curious, have any of those folks:
a) Measured the resulting cracks to determine if they fall within the "1/3 the height of the dimple measured from the bottom edge" tolerance in the latest Section 5?
b) Followed the instructions for filing out the cracks after dimpling and then...
c) Gone ahead and riveted the part?

If anyone has done all of the steps above, what has your experience been with additional cracking after riveting?
Click to expand...


No point….it goes full depth. Every single hole looks like this on my tests. You can clearly see the affected zone where every crack lies….in that white part. I had reamed the holes, de burred and then scotch brite to ensure cracks were not caused by any other issue. After reaming the hole looked reasonably clear but you could see the white area (heat affected? Brittle?) and on some a tiny notch not cleared out by the reamer. I even filed a few of those. Cleaveland dimple dies….this is the result. I had plenty of slag on the ribs too. There was different vendors…..so……Disclaimer…….Others mileage may vary. Just because mine do this does not mean other laser cut parts are not acceptable by other vendors however mine certainly are not.
 
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swift12 said:
No point….it goes full depth. Every single hole looks like this on my tests. You can clearly see the affected zone where every crack lies….in that white part. I had reamed the holes, de burred and then scotch brite to ensure cracks were not caused by any other issue. After reaming the hole looked reasonably clear but you could see the white area (heat affected? Brittle?) and on some a tiny notch not cleared out by the reamer. I even filed a few of those. Cleaveland dimple dies….this is the result. I had plenty of slag on the ribs too. There was different vendors…..so……Disclaimer…….Others mileage may vary. Just because mine do this does not mean other laser cut parts are not acceptable by other vendors however mine certainly are not.
Click to expand...

I may be wrong but I think the 1/3 height is referencing the dimple cone not the hole wall. But many go over both
 
tfriske said:
A number of folks in this thread have either run their own prep/dimpling experiments on LCPs at home, or have gone back and inspected previously dimpled LCPs, and have had similar results--lots of cracks.

I'm curious, have any of those folks:
a) Measured the resulting cracks to determine if they fall within the "1/3 the height of the dimple measured from the bottom edge" tolerance in the latest Section 5?
b) Followed the instructions for filing out the cracks after dimpling and then...
c) Gone ahead and riveted the part?

If anyone has done all of the steps above, what has your experience been with additional cracking after riveting?
Click to expand...

I did this back in May on my rudder spar, did not get cracking when re-riveted. I send the photos and process to Vans for "repair" approval, but did not hear back, and you all have the rest of the story at this point.
View attachment 47860

View attachment 47861

View attachment 47862
 
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Jack_G_S said:
from what I have observed I think a crack from a properly reamed and dimpled hole is nearly nonexistent. We have looked at both LCP and non-LCP under magnification in attempts to determine which ones are LCP.

Just look at the smoothness of the inner walls of the test sample I did. That is a non-LCP and the walls are as smooth as a mirror. LCP inside walls look like a file and that’s the area outside of the “feature”.
Click to expand...

I disagree, the properly reamed hole on the wholes that have a notch, do not take out the notch and crack. And even when pulling the reamer into the notch (pressure on the inside edge with the reamer), there is still an oblong shape at that point. I did a lot of work on my kit on LCP trying to prevent cracking, and I did not have success. However, if filed a dimpled crack, I have not had cracking during riveting. But I have had non cracked dimples, crack at riveting. I did go back and drill out, file and rerivet with no cracks though.
 
lipper03 said:
I disagree, the properly reamed hole on the wholes that have a notch, do not take out the notch and crack. And even when pulling the reamer into the notch (pressure on the inside edge with the reamer), there is still an oblong shape at that point. I did a lot of work on my kit on LCP trying to prevent cracking, and I did not have success. However, if filed a dimpled crack, I have not had cracking during riveting. But I have had non cracked dimples, crack at riveting. I did go back and drill out, file and rerivet with no cracks though.
Click to expand...

I’m sorry. I can see how my post might be misleading if you did not read the post that I was replying to. I was replying to people that think non-LCP hole’s probably have cracks if you look at them with equal magnification

Yes we are circling back to that. And no these people don’t make any observations before posting assumptions.

To be perfectly clear I know that undersized holes often crack even after reaming. I have posted pictures of cracked dimples. And yes I have looked at many NON-LCP dimples under magnification and none have cracks.
 
swift12 said:
No point….it goes full depth. Every single hole looks like this on my tests. You can clearly see the affected zone where every crack lies….in that white part...
Click to expand...

It may not make any difference in the end, but that’s not the depth you are trying to determine. Your photo clearly shows that the crack is the full thickness of the part stock (makes sense), but the quoted tolerance is referring to the dimple feature dimension, not the part thickness. You want to determine what fraction of the dimple is essentially torn open by the crack, measured from its inner edge to the outer rim where the dimple becomes flat aluminum again.
 
I've recently received a QB Fuselage that has the floor ribs littered with small cracks in dimples. I thought the same as you, so went back to my empennage pieces (all pre-LCP) and did not find a single crack under magnification on rudder, VS, HS or elevators.



TShort said:
Relevant or not, I don't know. I am not an engineer.

On my wing kit. Not QB. Prepunched, around 2005.

I match drilled, deburred, and dimpled all holes.

Never looked at a single dimple under magnification. Are mine cracked? I don't know. I didn't look.

Is the increased scrutiny part of the issue?
Click to expand...
 
cracked QB fuse dimples/rivets

Sorry to hear your kit has cracks. When and from whom did you get your QB fuse? I received mine in July from Flyer (Brazil) with a tag dated 23/03/23. I have inspected the fuse with 10x power headset and flexible borescope and found no cracked dimples. All my parts appear to be punched as best I can tell. I have taken tons of photos with associated part numbers for documentation. Of course not every rivet however. Still waiting for communication from Vans about our kit, as is everyone else.
 
flyinlow74 said:
Sorry to hear your kit has cracks. When and from whom did you get your QB fuse? I received mine in July from Flyer (Brazil) with a tag dated 23/03/23. I have inspected the fuse with 10x power headset and flexible borescope and found no cracked dimples. All my parts appear to be punched as best I can tell. I have taken tons of photos with associated part numbers for documentation. Of course not every rivet however. Still waiting for communication from Vans about our kit, as is everyone else.
Click to expand...

FYI, just because it might help others. My QB fuse and wings are from Flyer also. Fuse date is 1/23/23, wing dates are 12/22/22 & 12/23/22. I have also inspected with microscope, found only 3 questionable rivets. All parts appear punched. I'm awaiting communication from Vans as well.
 
flyinlow74 said:
Sorry to hear your kit has cracks. When and from whom did you get your QB fuse? I received mine in July from Flyer (Brazil) with a tag dated 23/03/23. I have inspected the fuse with 10x power headset and flexible borescope and found no cracked dimples. All my parts appear to be punched as best I can tell. I have taken tons of photos with associated part numbers for documentation. Of course not every rivet however. Still waiting for communication from Vans about our kit, as is everyone else.
Click to expand...

Nashpdman said:
FYI, just because it might help others. My QB fuse and wings are from Flyer also. Fuse date is 1/23/23, wing dates are 12/22/22 & 12/23/22. I have also inspected with microscope, found only 3 questionable rivets. All parts appear punched. I'm awaiting communication from Vans as well.
Click to expand...

Have either of you (or anyone else who has received QB kits) been contacted by Van's with a QB survey as indicated in last weeks update?

edit BTW, my Flyer tag on the fuse is dated 3/2/23 and from a cursory look seems OK. I intend to inspect in more detail.
 
steve997 said:
I've recently received a QB Fuselage that has the floor ribs littered with small cracks in dimples. I thought the same as you, so went back to my empennage pieces (all pre-LCP) and did not find a single crack under magnification on rudder, VS, HS or elevators.
Click to expand...

Did you drill out all the temp pull rivets and remove the floor panels to reveal the cracks in rib dimples?
 
I have quickbuild wings and fuse on order, not delivered - no word from Vans at all about them, survey or otherwise. I have to assume that they stopped work involving laser cut parts at the facilities, so undelivered kits shouldn't contain laser cut parts.. but that's a guess and certainly does not help folks who already got theirs.

jimbom said:
Have either of you (or anyone else who has received QB kits) been contacted by Van's with a QB survey as indicated in last weeks update?

edit BTW, my Flyer tag on the fuse is dated 3/2/23 and from a cursory look seems OK. I intend to inspect in more detail.
Click to expand...
 
inktomi said:
I have quickbuild wings and fuse on order, not delivered - no word from Vans at all about them, survey or otherwise. I have to assume that they stopped work involving laser cut parts at the facilities, so undelivered kits shouldn't contain laser cut parts.. but that's a guess and certainly does not help folks who already got theirs.
Click to expand...

There is probably a 'window' of QB kits between notice of the LCP issue and start of work with all punched parts; but not yet delivered. My orders are in this QB 'Purgatory'. Vans said they are inspecting these for LCP parts. Probably why there is no communication to customers on these pending orders. The upcoming QB survey will determine what they do with these Purgatory QB's.
 
To Greg or anyone else at Van's, what about the RV-12? No RV-12 parts are on the list. Is Van's saying that LCPs are OK to use? Is it known (or just suspected) that non-dimpled parts are not affected? Is this part of the current testing? Are the stresses on an out-of-round hole (from filing out the laser defect) less with a pulled rivet than a solid one? An RV-12 stabilator was successfully tested to the equivalent of 30,000 hours with all oversized laser-cut holes. Were these perfectly round holes that were a few thousandths oversize, or were they also holes that required notch removal? Does the offer to replace any LCP apply to the RV-12? Are there LCPs in any SLSA RV-12s?
 
tfriske said:
It may not make any difference in the end, but that’s not the depth you are trying to determine. Your photo clearly shows that the crack is the full thickness of the part stock (makes sense), but the quoted tolerance is referring to the dimple feature dimension, not the part thickness. You want to determine what fraction of the dimple is essentially torn open by the crack, measured from its inner edge to the outer rim where the dimple becomes flat aluminum again.
Click to expand...


Stuff that...they all crack....none of my punched parts crack....thats the end of it.
 
flyinlow74 said:
Sorry to hear your kit has cracks. When and from whom did you get your QB fuse? I received mine in July from Flyer (Brazil) with a tag dated 23/03/23. I have inspected the fuse with 10x power headset and flexible borescope and found no cracked dimples. All my parts appear to be punched as best I can tell. I have taken tons of photos with associated part numbers for documentation. Of course not every rivet however. Still waiting for communication from Vans about our kit, as is everyone else.
Click to expand...

jimbom said:
Have either of you (or anyone else who has received QB kits) been contacted by Van's with a QB survey as indicated in last weeks update?

edit BTW, my Flyer tag on the fuse is dated 3/2/23 and from a cursory look seems OK. I intend to inspect in more detail.
Click to expand...


My QB Fuse and QB Wings arrived 2 Aug (left Vans in early May) so were already on the ocean when all this unfolded. Both were via Exemplar (Fuse 28 Feb '23 / Wings 12 Jan '23). My wings look fine but obviously there's areas that I can't get to due to skin covering and it seems fuel tanks, flaps and ailerons are affected too.

However the Fuse has a lot of laser cut parts including crack-affected floor ribs - some with only a few 'feature' dimples but I have at least two ribs towards the rear of baggage compartment floor that have cracks on every single dimple - ie 100% affected rate.

JimBom - I have not heard anything as yet from Vans specific to QB kits (as per Greg's last notification). Given it's been 10 weeks since this was finally acknowledged, I'm probably like a lot of others and starting to feel very uneasy with the lack of direct information to QB owners.
 
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mbell said:
To Greg or anyone else at Van's, what about the RV-12? No RV-12 parts are on the list. Is Van's saying that LCPs are OK to use? Is it known (or just suspected) that non-dimpled parts are not affected? Is this part of the current testing? Are the stresses on an out-of-round hole (from filing out the laser defect) less with a pulled rivet than a solid one? An RV-12 stabilator was successfully tested to the equivalent of 30,000 hours with all oversized laser-cut holes. Were these perfectly round holes that were a few thousandths oversize, or were they also holes that required notch removal? Does the offer to replace any LCP apply to the RV-12? Are there LCPs in any SLSA RV-12s?
Click to expand...

I have similar questions and was told more info is coming soon.

I have a few tank ribs that were LC and after looking at the KAI, I see that they get some dimples and I am not OK with putting these in my fuel tank.

The only other LCP's I have that have not been assembled are the wing ribs which don't get dimples.
 
jimbom said:
Did you drill out all the temp pull rivets and remove the floor panels to reveal the cracks in rib dimples?
Click to expand...

I did, went over every rivet with a microscope.

"Have either of you (or anyone else who has received QB kits) been contacted by Van's with a QB survey as indicated in last weeks update?" No I have not.
 
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Brantel said:
I have similar questions and was told more info is coming soon.

I have a few tank ribs that were LC and after looking at the KAI, I see that they get some dimples and I am not OK with putting these in my fuel tank.

The only other LCP's I have that have not been assembled are the wing ribs which don't get dimples.
Click to expand...
Following. Most of my 12is empennage kit is LCP. I'm not very far along, just completing my vertical stabilizer. So far most of the holes were pretty clean and only required light deburring. On one rib however, all the flange holes were notched and required filling, so some enlargement of the holes undoubtedly occurred.
On a side note, I ended up having to order a new VS-1202, as I messed it up drilling out a few under sunk rivets. The response from Vans to the part order is that the part is unavailable and there is NO estimated lead time. That's not surprising as I'm sure replacement parts for a 12 are probably low priority right now, but not encouraging.
On the bright side, my wing kit I received this summer has few if any LCP parts.
 
Brantel said:
I have similar questions and was told more info is coming soon.

I have a few tank ribs that were LC and after looking at the KAI, I see that they get some dimples and I am not OK with putting these in my fuel tank.

The only other LCP's I have that have not been assembled are the wing ribs which don't get dimples.
Click to expand...

I have a factory-built tank so that could get interesting. I de-notched over 2,000 holes in the nose ribs so I'm a bit invested, but would prefer to be LCP-free. FWIW the holes in the ribs that were dimpled for nutplates did not crack.
 
Web portal?

I know I'm beating a dead horse, but the last week we were told:

We anticipate that next week we will provide affected customers access to the web portal for requesting replacement parts.
Click to expand...

It is Fri afternoon; at least a courtesy update would be nice...
 
In the interest of getting things completed well and accurately rather than immediately, we're working today, tonight, and over the weekend on the pending updates.

EDIT: Wow! lots of volunteers, and our list is full - thanks! We would like to have a few more web portal customer testers sometime later this weekend who would be willing and able to access the portal to test functionality and provide feedback. Please contact me directly via email or PM if you're willing to volunteer. If a lot of people reach out (or if my PM mailbox fills up again!), I won't be able to include everyone who volunteers, but thank you.

Here is what was just posted to the Van's web site:

Today our team is reviewing, testing, and finalizing the web portal to allow customers to submit requests for laser-cut part replacements. We have invited a number of customers to assist in this testing process. We will send individual affected customers the information they will need to access the portal upon the conclusion of that testing process.

Our engineering team is completing work on an update covering laser-cut parts testing, evaluation, and classification. This document will help explain the statuses assigned to parts with some detail about how various parts are evaluated and statuses are assigned. We will also soon post an update to the laser-cut parts list document, which will include the latest updated statuses.​
 
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Thanks Greg! I appreciate the hard work and overtime you guys are putting in for those of us affected. Not fun times, but this too shall pass.
 
I did an inventory of parts that need replacement. Some are clear replace where I can see an indentation on the side of the hole but multiple LCP parts appear to have been deburred. Has anyone else noticed that?
378015737_3517646558448140_7926738749651623007_n.jpg
 
I have found a few random parts in my kit that were obviously buffed in areas to remove burrs. Also recall finding a couple of ribs that were squared and fluted already. I don't know what that was about but it saved me some time. :)
 
Just me

drone_pilot said:
I have found a few random parts in my kit that were obviously buffed in areas to remove burrs. Also recall finding a couple of ribs that were squared and fluted already. I don't know what that was about but it saved me some time. :)
Click to expand...

I built before this LCP was a issue. But some of the parts were already fluted, mostly the difficult to dimple holes.
 
Everyone,

We currently have a couple dozen people helping to test the web portal and provide feedback, which is helping our team make needed fixes/adjustments. We appreciate the people who volunteered to help test, and thanks in large part to them we're working toward the general release of the portal. Along with that release we will publish an updated Laser Cut Parts List and a new engineering assessment document.

greg
 
greghughespdx said:
Everyone,

We currently have a couple dozen people helping to test the web portal and provide feedback, which is helping our team make needed fixes/adjustments. We appreciate the people who volunteered to help test, and thanks in large part to them we're working toward the general release of the portal. Along with that release we will publish an updated Laser Cut Parts List and a new engineering assessment document.

greg
Click to expand...

When will that be? Today?
 
Can we place orders for replacement parts as needed through this portal, or does it need to be 1 order for all lasercut and non-lasercut parts? Although I'll try my very best, I imagine it's almost impossible to not damage some non-lasercut parts during the disassembly.
 
sophie said:
Can we place orders for replacement parts as needed through this portal, or does it need to be 1 order for all lasercut and non-lasercut parts? Although I'll try my very best, I imagine it's almost impossible to not damage some non-lasercut parts during the disassembly.
Click to expand...

I share this same question/concern. Say I order the laser cut parts I need to replace and when that day comes that the parts are delivered and I start the rework and need to replace an adjacent damaged part, will I still be able to do so? We are probably talking months from now based on part availability.
 
I contributed as a Beta tester, the access to the test site was provided less than 24 hours ago and I submitted my findings. They will obviously need time to make adjustments based on feedback. Rest assured it was pretty solid.

We were asked not to give details so don’t ask.
 
Jack_G_S said:
When will be know who the third party testing company is and receive their report?
Click to expand...

You may get your wish on the first part - knowing who it was - but their report goes to the people writing the check for the work. Odds are slim to none that the full report will be released, and I don't blame Vans one small bit for that. It's standard business.
 
GrahamF said:
Yep, we need to know when.

The last meaningful update told us that we'd have access to this portal last week.
Click to expand...

To be clear, the September 15 update did not say the portal would be available last week. It said:

"Today our team is reviewing, testing, and finalizing the web portal to allow customers to submit requests for laser-cut part replacements. We have invited a number of customers to assist in this testing process. We will send individual affected customers the information they will need to access the portal upon the conclusion of that testing process."

As a 30+ year software and system engineer, I would appreciate having some insight into things like testing milestones, success criteria, remediation time estimates, and - most importantly - when the portal is expected to be released.

Does any of that solve the LCP issue? No, of course not; however, the transparency would enable me to better understand the degree of effort, detail, and quality focus being put into the process. Those things are important to me because the previous lack of them is how we ended up here in the first place.

But we've been asked not to ask, so I won't.

Once again, kept in the dark by a breathtakingly painful PR strategy. <sigh>
 
airguy said:
You may get your wish on the first part - knowing who it was - but their report goes to the people writing the check for the work. Odds are slim to none that the full report will be released, and I don't blame Vans one small bit for that. It's standard business.
Click to expand...

Van’s may write the check to them but we write the checks to Van’s.

Telling the customer they will use third party testing for transparency and then not releasing the results signals one of 3 possibilities.

1. The results were negative or mixed.
2. The company changed their mind on getting involved in this
3. There was never a 3rd party tester
 
With this sort of technical subject, it's entirely possible and even likely that the report will contain passages which could easily be misunderstood or misinterpreted by people who aren't professionally familiar with the specific subject.

Dave
 
David Paule said:
With this sort of technical subject, it's entirely possible and even likely that the report will contain passages which could easily be misunderstood or misinterpreted by people who aren't professionally familiar with the specific subject.
Click to expand...

That's an entirely fair point, and I don't disagree with a previous poster's notion that any such report commissioned by Vans is proprietary work product for which Vans is entirely within their remit to refrain from disclosing.

That being said, I think there is enough knowledge and experience present in this forum alone that any such report could be consumed and digested with minimal difficulty.
 
Jack_G_S said:
Well they are not even going to say who it was so another deception in my opinion.
Click to expand...

I would certainly like to see any such report, but I don't think withholding the testing entity's identity (say that 10x real fast! :D) crosses the threshold of deception.

I may be entirely off base, but I suspect withholding that information might be in the best interest of all parties to the LCP production debacle until any/all litigation risk is ameliorated (which could be a long, long time).
 
sophie said:
Can we place orders for replacement parts as needed through this portal, or does it need to be 1 order for all lasercut and non-lasercut parts? Although I'll try my very best, I imagine it's almost impossible to not damage some non-lasercut parts during the disassembly.
Click to expand...

The part replacement process is a good amount of estimating for parts orders.
Of course you need the part you are preplacing.
And you MAY need other adjacent parts that you will bung up in the process.
So how much of the adjacent parts to you order with the replacement part?

Estimating. One end is, order most if not all of the adjacent parts you may need. (costs more but you have the parts in hand). Other end is to start replacement work and only order parts when needed, bunged up. (costs less but takes more time). Im in the middle, but more towards the former.
 
tenacious9 said:
What about those of us with QBs? Wasn’t there a survey going out?
Click to expand...
I think we are on the back burner and replacement parts for slow builders is their priority. Not what we want to hear. My QB wings were ordered April 2021. Not sure I will have QB wings I can use till 2025 if I'm lucky!
 
ccarlson said:
To be clear, the September 15 update did not say the portal would be available last week
Click to expand...

The update prior to that one did suggest we would have access last week.

That's what I meant by a meaningful update - an action and a timeline. I don't view "testing is ongoing, wait" as a meaningful update, though we've heard enough of it.
 
Really trying to stay positive

Hopefully Vans will provide a very clear interpretation of test results and guidance on what builders must replace because they are a safety of flight issue (SBs), and what parts builders can opt to replace because they simply don't want LCPs in their build (safety of wallet issue).

If it's a vendor / batch problem, and if they can't tell builders exactly which batch they received, I'm not sure how they can direct builders to do anything but replace all LCPs? I really, really hope I'm wrong and there's an easy way to identify good from bad.

I'm not going to order anything from the portal until testing and guidance is clearly understood, everything is disassembled and I can make a complete inventory of what's needed to put it all back together.

Also, there's been no hint of Van's stance regarding shipping? In my limited experience, if you need long components like spars or large skins, shipping costs more than the parts themselves. Who's expected to cover shipping?
 
Pskluz said:
I think we are on the back burner and replacement parts for slow builders is their priority. Not what we want to hear. My QB wings were ordered April 2021. Not sure I will have QB wings I can use till 2025 if I'm lucky!
Click to expand...

So you think they will replace our entire assembly? I’m beginning to think they intend to treat us no different than the SB folks. Unbelievable if so.
 
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