They did quietly change Chapter 5 in February.
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Factory Info: Parts with Laser Cut Holes and Potential for Cracks
- Thread starter greghughespdx
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They did quietly change Chapter 5 in February.
2theskyy
Well Known Member
Dear Van’s RV Kit Builder,
We’re writing to inform you about an issue that’s been reported to us by some RV builders. We are in the process of reviewing the situation and want to share what we know so far. This email is being sent to those who received a kit which may include one or more laser cut parts.
In early 2022, Van’s began manufacturing some RV kit parts via partner contractors utilizing a fiber laser cutting process. This decision was made after completing a formal manufacturing process evaluation and extensive fatigue testing of laser-cut materials used in the manufacturing process, with the purpose of increasing the production capacity for some parts during a period of high demand.
Van’s has recently received reports from some RV builders of cracks that have occasionally formed in the edges of holes on some laser-cut parts either while dimpling or while riveting the dimpled holes. The frequency and consistency of reported cracks has been variable, as some customers have experienced cracking while others have not. We are acting on these reports by investing time, resources, and energy to investigating the customer-reported concerns, conducting extensive tests on parts and materials, and providing answers to questions.
We will communicate more information updates as time goes on. We will post updates and details to our web site at least weekly (available at this link) as new information becomes available. We appreciate your patience as we work through the various details.
A few things we want you to know:
We are communicating with you now because our records indicate you may have received laser-cut parts in your kit(s), based on your specific kit shipment date(s) and the timeframes in which the applicable laser-cut parts were available to be shipped to customers.
All of the parts that were manufactured beginning in 2022 utilizing the laser cutting process are now being produced on CNC punch press machines, as they were before. A smaller number of non-dimpled or non-structural parts that have always been laser cut are still being manufactured that way.
We are conducting extensive testing of parts and materials. These tests are being performed both at Van’s and at an internationally recognized company that specializes in these types of tests. The results of these tests, which are comprehensive and redundant in nature, will be communicated as the data is received and analyzed.
Crated kits that were packed prior to the manufacturing change that are already at shipping warehouse facilities, etc. may contain laser-cut parts, and we will work with customers who receive those parts.
Van’s will replace any laser-cut parts which are dimpled by the builder during the construction process, upon request, as soon as we are able to do so based on parts availability. We will provide information about availability of replacement parts, as well as a formal process for requesting replacement parts, as we develop and confirm our plans for manufacturing. Note that not all parts are in stock at this time, regardless of the availability status displayed on our online store. Our online store inventory status will be updated soon to reflect the removal of laser-cut part counts from our inventory. Please do not place an online store order or a call-in order for parts at this time, as we need to establish a standard process to help ensure we can serve each customer smoothly. We will communicate the details of that process as soon as it is ready to go.
The team at Van’s will do our best to provide replacement parts as soon as possible. Creating replacement parts will take time. We are prioritizing the manufacturing of parts on our CNC punch presses, as well as providing tooling to our partner punch press contractors. It will take a number of weeks before that tooling arrives and can be put to use. We will ramp up production as quickly as possible within the necessary constraints of tooling readiness and strict quality control.
Quick Build kits are inspected at Van’s prior to shipping. Should any issues be observed by a customer, they should contact Van’s and we will work with them to assess and address concerns as needed. We will communicate directly with these customers regarding a process to follow, as well.
Additional testing and evaluation we are currently performing:
We are conducting extensive tests of parts with holes containing cracks and notches, because cracks could potentially be present in holes that make it into the field. Therefore, we need to understand the real-world impact: how and when cracks form, how and whether cracks may propagate, and what the actual results of any propagation might be. Initial testing indicated that laser-cut parts had a lifespan very close to that of punched parts (and well beyond the expected necessary lifespan of an airplane). Additional testing is being conducted now by Van’s as well as a contracted third-party testing partner. The results of these tests will provide additional valuable information and will also serve in the review of prior test results.
Currently, the parts of greatest potential concern are the following laser-cut parts:
Vertical stabilizer, rudder, and elevator spars on all RV-7, RV-8, RV-9, RV-10, and RV-14 empennage/tail kits;
Horizontal stabilizer spars in RV-7/8 empennage kits;
Some flap and aileron spars that were shipped early in the laser-cutting process, in RV-7, RV-8, RV-9, RV-10, and RV-14 kits
We encourage people to pause building of the above specific kits that include laser-cut empennage/tail, aileron, and flap spar parts. We will be replacing these components and providing further guidance. Even though testing of these specific parts is not yet complete, Van’s is erring on the side of caution by identifying those parts now and will recommend the replacement of these parts due to the relatively high loads carried by those specific parts. We are executing an initial run of replacement parts on our punch presses now and will be making additional production runs.
Our testing program for this issue is ongoing and is focused on reviewing the various hole diameters and material thicknesses/types that are used to produce the affected aircraft parts. These variables, as well as variations in manufacturing process parameters, may result in a marked difference in the potential for a crack to form and propagate in a given hole. We will prioritize testing and manufacturing of replacement parts based on these differences. We are also reviewing the metallurgy of the holes at the third-party test lab, in order to better understand the origin and cause of observed cracks, and effect on the performance (and lifespan, if applicable) of the part. From that, we will gain a greater understanding about these cracks and at what stages in the process they are formed (when cut, when dimpled, when riveted). We expect to receive those results soon, even before the full spectrum of overall testing is completed, and we will communicate that information when available.
Extensive fatigue testing is underway and will take some time to complete, due to the length of each test and the exhaustive number of tests being performed. Tests are being conducted at multiple locations. It will take time to build a comprehensive sample size that will yield results with the highest level of confidence. Van’s and our contract test partner are working around the clock on this process.
We have published a list of affected parts (which is available at this link) and have classified each part to indicate the current status of each. We will update that list based on test results as they are received. This list and the associated status of each part will determine the order in which we will produce replacement parts (higher-priority parts will be manufactured first). We plan to execute multiple smaller manufacturing runs of parts from the priority list, as compared to our typical large batch runs.
Please understand that the team at Van’s is hard at work on this and that our priority is making sure these issues are carefully, accurately, and thoughtfully reviewed and addressed. We will communicate new information as it becomes available. We understand that builders want and need answers as soon as possible, and we will provide updates to you as well as our teams internally as soon as we have information. Note that questions asked of our team before we have full information in hand will necessarily have to be answered with something similar to, “That information is pending, and we’re working hard to get it to you as soon as possible.” We hope you’ll understand that, and please know that we will communicate proactively as new information becomes available.
We are working for you to provide quality parts and service. We understand this is frustrating for affected customers and want you to know that we are here, we are listening, and we will work to make things right.
Again, we plan to update you with new information when we have it.
Thank you for your understanding, patience and support.
I just want everyone without a dog in the fight to have the email.
We’re writing to inform you about an issue that’s been reported to us by some RV builders. We are in the process of reviewing the situation and want to share what we know so far. This email is being sent to those who received a kit which may include one or more laser cut parts.
In early 2022, Van’s began manufacturing some RV kit parts via partner contractors utilizing a fiber laser cutting process. This decision was made after completing a formal manufacturing process evaluation and extensive fatigue testing of laser-cut materials used in the manufacturing process, with the purpose of increasing the production capacity for some parts during a period of high demand.
Van’s has recently received reports from some RV builders of cracks that have occasionally formed in the edges of holes on some laser-cut parts either while dimpling or while riveting the dimpled holes. The frequency and consistency of reported cracks has been variable, as some customers have experienced cracking while others have not. We are acting on these reports by investing time, resources, and energy to investigating the customer-reported concerns, conducting extensive tests on parts and materials, and providing answers to questions.
We will communicate more information updates as time goes on. We will post updates and details to our web site at least weekly (available at this link) as new information becomes available. We appreciate your patience as we work through the various details.
A few things we want you to know:
We are communicating with you now because our records indicate you may have received laser-cut parts in your kit(s), based on your specific kit shipment date(s) and the timeframes in which the applicable laser-cut parts were available to be shipped to customers.
All of the parts that were manufactured beginning in 2022 utilizing the laser cutting process are now being produced on CNC punch press machines, as they were before. A smaller number of non-dimpled or non-structural parts that have always been laser cut are still being manufactured that way.
We are conducting extensive testing of parts and materials. These tests are being performed both at Van’s and at an internationally recognized company that specializes in these types of tests. The results of these tests, which are comprehensive and redundant in nature, will be communicated as the data is received and analyzed.
Crated kits that were packed prior to the manufacturing change that are already at shipping warehouse facilities, etc. may contain laser-cut parts, and we will work with customers who receive those parts.
Van’s will replace any laser-cut parts which are dimpled by the builder during the construction process, upon request, as soon as we are able to do so based on parts availability. We will provide information about availability of replacement parts, as well as a formal process for requesting replacement parts, as we develop and confirm our plans for manufacturing. Note that not all parts are in stock at this time, regardless of the availability status displayed on our online store. Our online store inventory status will be updated soon to reflect the removal of laser-cut part counts from our inventory. Please do not place an online store order or a call-in order for parts at this time, as we need to establish a standard process to help ensure we can serve each customer smoothly. We will communicate the details of that process as soon as it is ready to go.
The team at Van’s will do our best to provide replacement parts as soon as possible. Creating replacement parts will take time. We are prioritizing the manufacturing of parts on our CNC punch presses, as well as providing tooling to our partner punch press contractors. It will take a number of weeks before that tooling arrives and can be put to use. We will ramp up production as quickly as possible within the necessary constraints of tooling readiness and strict quality control.
Quick Build kits are inspected at Van’s prior to shipping. Should any issues be observed by a customer, they should contact Van’s and we will work with them to assess and address concerns as needed. We will communicate directly with these customers regarding a process to follow, as well.
Additional testing and evaluation we are currently performing:
We are conducting extensive tests of parts with holes containing cracks and notches, because cracks could potentially be present in holes that make it into the field. Therefore, we need to understand the real-world impact: how and when cracks form, how and whether cracks may propagate, and what the actual results of any propagation might be. Initial testing indicated that laser-cut parts had a lifespan very close to that of punched parts (and well beyond the expected necessary lifespan of an airplane). Additional testing is being conducted now by Van’s as well as a contracted third-party testing partner. The results of these tests will provide additional valuable information and will also serve in the review of prior test results.
Currently, the parts of greatest potential concern are the following laser-cut parts:
Vertical stabilizer, rudder, and elevator spars on all RV-7, RV-8, RV-9, RV-10, and RV-14 empennage/tail kits;
Horizontal stabilizer spars in RV-7/8 empennage kits;
Some flap and aileron spars that were shipped early in the laser-cutting process, in RV-7, RV-8, RV-9, RV-10, and RV-14 kits
We encourage people to pause building of the above specific kits that include laser-cut empennage/tail, aileron, and flap spar parts. We will be replacing these components and providing further guidance. Even though testing of these specific parts is not yet complete, Van’s is erring on the side of caution by identifying those parts now and will recommend the replacement of these parts due to the relatively high loads carried by those specific parts. We are executing an initial run of replacement parts on our punch presses now and will be making additional production runs.
Our testing program for this issue is ongoing and is focused on reviewing the various hole diameters and material thicknesses/types that are used to produce the affected aircraft parts. These variables, as well as variations in manufacturing process parameters, may result in a marked difference in the potential for a crack to form and propagate in a given hole. We will prioritize testing and manufacturing of replacement parts based on these differences. We are also reviewing the metallurgy of the holes at the third-party test lab, in order to better understand the origin and cause of observed cracks, and effect on the performance (and lifespan, if applicable) of the part. From that, we will gain a greater understanding about these cracks and at what stages in the process they are formed (when cut, when dimpled, when riveted). We expect to receive those results soon, even before the full spectrum of overall testing is completed, and we will communicate that information when available.
Extensive fatigue testing is underway and will take some time to complete, due to the length of each test and the exhaustive number of tests being performed. Tests are being conducted at multiple locations. It will take time to build a comprehensive sample size that will yield results with the highest level of confidence. Van’s and our contract test partner are working around the clock on this process.
We have published a list of affected parts (which is available at this link) and have classified each part to indicate the current status of each. We will update that list based on test results as they are received. This list and the associated status of each part will determine the order in which we will produce replacement parts (higher-priority parts will be manufactured first). We plan to execute multiple smaller manufacturing runs of parts from the priority list, as compared to our typical large batch runs.
Please understand that the team at Van’s is hard at work on this and that our priority is making sure these issues are carefully, accurately, and thoughtfully reviewed and addressed. We will communicate new information as it becomes available. We understand that builders want and need answers as soon as possible, and we will provide updates to you as well as our teams internally as soon as we have information. Note that questions asked of our team before we have full information in hand will necessarily have to be answered with something similar to, “That information is pending, and we’re working hard to get it to you as soon as possible.” We hope you’ll understand that, and please know that we will communicate proactively as new information becomes available.
We are working for you to provide quality parts and service. We understand this is frustrating for affected customers and want you to know that we are here, we are listening, and we will work to make things right.
Again, we plan to update you with new information when we have it.
Thank you for your understanding, patience and support.
I just want everyone without a dog in the fight to have the email.
KatanaPilot
Well Known Member
Thanks for sharing. I bought fuel tank ribs for Sky Designs ER tanks and an aileron (for a rebuild) during this time and the parts are on the affected list, but never got the email. Must have been sent to kit builders only.
I have an opinion of this situation, but for once, I’m going to keep it to myself.
re: Dog In The Fight....
I think everybody who comes on this forum has a dog in the fight. People who are thinking of buying a kit are wondering if Vans is the right choice. People who have already purchased a kit have obvious concerns. People who have flying airplanes may be concerned about resale value taking a hit. We all have a dog in this fight!
I think everybody who comes on this forum has a dog in the fight. People who are thinking of buying a kit are wondering if Vans is the right choice. People who have already purchased a kit have obvious concerns. People who have flying airplanes may be concerned about resale value taking a hit. We all have a dog in this fight!
2theskyy
Well Known Member
I apologize. I didn’t mean any offense. You are correct. I just meant those that did not receive email should read it for themselves. I’ve read it multiple times and seem to read it or pick up on different parts of it every time.
Oh, I wasn't replying to your comment. No offense at all. There have been a number of references in this thread to "Dog in the fight". Like people who don't have any laser cut parts have no say in the matter.
Part of me wonders if the additional testing being done has little to do with us kit builders located in the USA? Remember, Vans produces the -12 as a factory built LSA. I can tell you EASA and every other aviation governing body in this world is FAR more stringent on what they allow in the air and overall maintenance requirements to remain airworthy. I can only imagine these foreign agencies might be a little harder to convince all is good not only for the LSAs, but all the kit builders worldwide.
There may be even other issues at play here, if the vendor who fabricated the parts failed to utilize approved processes. If by some chance it's a vendor to other aerospace companies, then the possibility of a GIDEP alert would be something to consider, and that's a *major* step that can seriously affect the vendor AND its other customers.
Id say if the laser issue is being solved the first bunch of people should not fear. the product is good just not the laser parts....which we hope is being addressed. That is those wondering if an RV is the right choice. they are good kits...except for the laser issue. but for now thats off the table so new buyers of kits should not have that issue
Jonnyb
Well Known Member
While I take onboard your point, it really depends on the reason behind the waiting.
If we’re waiting for part production then ordering would get you nowhere. If we’re waiting for testing and parts are in stock and sat on shelves, then I have no issue ordering the parts you absolutely need to continue with your build.
I’m not advocating ordering $2000 worth of parts, but if you need a new set of stiffeners to finish off your seats then why not?
According to the website I could order an entire fuse kit and have it here next month, with no laser cut parts in it. In the meantime we all wait.
KatanaPilot
Well Known Member
How many S-LSA RV-12's have been built with potentially defective laser cut parts? That rework would be entirely on Van's and could be expensive. Maybe that's the reason for the focus on testing RV-12 parts initially?
Also, didn’t Van’s announce at OSH that Brazil had already adopted their version of MOSAIC and Flyer was once again manufacturing RV’s for sale? LCP might have a big impact on that, too.
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The company only decided to start making these parts in house a few weeks ago. The odds are about 99% that the inventory system has NOT been updated and ALL of those parts listed as in stock are laser cut parts. IMHO, there are NO puched part replacements yet for those parts that have been laser cut until 4 weeks ago. Someone has to change the entire in house production flow to get those parts back in the rotation, as they were vendor sourced. I am sure they are working on that, but doubt it happened that fast.
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Well said and would like to add something to this. ALL OF US benefit from Vans reputation for building a safe and reliable airplane. We get this benefit in resale value as well as having folks like CFIs and DPEs willing to get in it to work with us. Some of the long term folks can likely tell stories about asking other pilots to hop into an experimental plane 20 years ago. Acceptance of EAB planes has grown immensely over the last 2 decades and Vans is a big part of that.
Second, we ALL have a vested interest in Vans coming out the other side of this healthy. For a moment, let's imagine that Vans caves in to the external pressure, over spends, then the recession finally hits. Good chance they don't make it and ALL OF US pay the price long term.
Yes this is frustrating and I could only imagine what it must feel like for guys that waited 2 years for a kit only to have this happen. However, there are thousands of your fellow aviators and builders that are dependent upon Vans survival. Please keep that in mind as you spread doom and gloom across the marketplace as well as how you apply pressure to Vans.
Clearly we are not dealing with highly experienced PR folks here. A little communication would go a long way here, but they are not doing it. We need to accept that Vans is a small group of generally honest and well intention-ed aviation guys without a lot of corp experience and NOT Boeing. And if you look at the deceit involved in the MAX fiasco, you will understand that is a GOOD thing, even if it means some short term frustration.
We need to be patient and all work together in helping Vans to get through this without a great deal of damage as our experience will change in a lot of ways, none good, if they don't.
Larry
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2theskyy
Well Known Member
Excellent post. I like that everyone is vested. So you think all flying van plane owners should donate $1k towards a QB/finished kit LCP owner? Maybe get a list together so all can donate so these folks nor Vans will take the financially hit.
I really like your idea and think this is a small price for long term resale value of yours and those LCP owners.
2theskyy
Well Known Member
Great point.
You must have received a different email/communication. Because the email I received seemed to say 2 opposing things. Are they now being produced or will it take time. I do think the email had too much detail or speculation at the given time. But if follow up communication explaining progression or changes will help a lot, as we all seem to agree.
2 notes included in email.
*All of the parts that were manufactured beginning in 2022 utilizing the laser cutting process are now being produced on CNC punch press machines, as they were before. A smaller number of non-dimpled or non-structural parts that have always been laser cut are still being manufactured that way
*The team at Van’s will do our best to provide replacement parts as soon as possible. Creating replacement parts will take time. We are prioritizing the manufacturing of parts on our CNC punch presses, as well as providing tooling to our partner punch press contractors. It will take a number of weeks before that tooling arrives and can be put to use. We will ramp up production as quickly as possible within the necessary constraints of tooling readiness and strict quality control.
Don't think I could have said it any better.
KatanaPilot
Well Known Member
Sarcasm or serious?
Can't really tell if this was tongue-in-cheek or an idea you want to promote. Reminds me of when the Delta Air Lines employees got together and bought a B-767-200 during tough times at the airline. The "Spirit of Delta" resides today in the Delta museum. I always enjoyed making the PA to the passengers about Ship 102 every time I had the privilege of flying her.
If this is a serious offer, count me in. With two RV's in the family, we could be out a lot more if Van's doesn't get through this without reorganization.
Can't really tell if this was tongue-in-cheek or an idea you want to promote. Reminds me of when the Delta Air Lines employees got together and bought a B-767-200 during tough times at the airline. The "Spirit of Delta" resides today in the Delta museum. I always enjoyed making the PA to the passengers about Ship 102 every time I had the privilege of flying her.
If this is a serious offer, count me in. With two RV's in the family, we could be out a lot more if Van's doesn't get through this without reorganization.
2theskyy
Well Known Member
Absolutely not tongue in cheek! We all have a lot of hope in this situation. Hope is not a strategy. I felt I’m invested with only uninstalled lcp parts so I’d let vans know I’d buy my own replacement parts so those with built kits or QB could have more focus on them. So a few with flying RV’s say they’re in the game as well. So I took it as $1k for everyone and if Vans would just focus on what they do best;design and build great planes and parts, then the rest would take care of itself. Not to include the lsa folks as someone pointed that out earlier.
It’s simple. No one wants these parts in their plane. That’s going to take cash from somewhere.
P.S. I’ve had many from Delta thank “us” for standing up lately. Failed TA last summer
2theskyy
Well Known Member
I’m sure there’s a lawyer pilot out there to set up a something legally with an escrow account that a vemo,Zelle etc could be sent in with your name and if you know of QB/kit lcp owner included. If the $ is not used for whatever reason, insurance or such covers all owner, then $ would be returned to senders. Sounds more complex than the problem but this is done for furlough accounts.
Anyone thinking I’m part of the problem, think again. I’ll throw in a $1k on top of purchasing my own affected parts.
I’m sure someone from EAA national could chime in and help organize as well.
Anyone thinking I’m part of the problem, think again. I’ll throw in a $1k on top of purchasing my own affected parts.
I’m sure someone from EAA national could chime in and help organize as well.
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2theskyy
Well Known Member
There’s 11529 flying RV’s, according to Vans website. If only half of those vested owners and whomever else wants to donate. It could be 5.7 mill and EAA could coordinate with Vans for the list of lcp owners to get new QB or built kits put together. The 1,2… year wait might be easier to swallow if affected owners will get a new kit,QB at no additional cost than they originally invested.
Now that’s just tongue n’ cheek thinking
Solution. Maybe not
Now that’s just tongue n’ cheek thinking
Solution. Maybe not
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I don't think Vans shipping a few thousand alum parts is going to break the bank. People demanding brand new complete kits is a problem though. The biggest issue is letting this get widely distributed to the masses before an all clear is called. Remember Tylenol? It doesn't take a lot to destroy a reputation. Then sales fall off a cliff and that is what kills the company (can't keep up with the variable costs with no revenue steam). Everybody keeps saying that venting their frustrations on a public forum is healthy. It may be for them, but definitely is not for Vans.
I am not prepared to donate just yet. Vans made a fairly significant mistake here and deserves to see a profit hit because of it; That's business. After all, they are not a charity supporting GA, but a for profit business that likely makes a profit. The cost of shipping new parts should easily be covered from past or current profits. My goal is keeping the loss to just that and not something larger that would create more lasting damage. Getting off scott free teaches them nothing about the need for better QA. Don't mean to be harsh here, but this shouldn't be on us unless a real threat to their longevity exists. I am all for supporting them but will not pay for their mistakes unless a real threat exists and am NOT convinced we are there yet. I will OTOH be a strong cheerleader that will trumpet the fact that they are good people that deserve their good reputation. They simply made a mistake and have all confidence that they will make it right for all. Their style of communications on this issue leaves much to be desired, but that doesn't take away from the fact they are highly likely to address this in a relatively fair manner with their customers.
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Exactly! If this problem had come up thirty years ago, it would have been a minor issue with the vast majority of Vans owners and potential customers not ever knowing about it.
I suspect many of the parts being tested will pass with a life expectancy exceeding the lifespan of the airframe. But, it doesn't matter what the testing results are. Perception is all that matters.
I learned a long time ago that how people feel often turns out to be more important than facts. I really hope Vans understand this and builds their response around it.
What if that is not true anymore. You aren’t the one being asked to fall on the sword.
I am only mildly sympathetic of people worrying about the resale value of their non-LCP aircraft. If those airplanes are negatively affected by this then what will be the resale value of aircraft with LCP?
We are going to be asked to keep LCP in aircraft that have completed kits. Regardless of the results of their in-house testing or bridge testing company they have already demonstrated their lack of faith by spending a lot of money to switch back to punched parts.
I highly doubt that is true. By the size of the LCP list it looks like they were vastly expanding the outsourcing and they should have had the new press last year.
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How many parts in your finished kits are affected.
Honestly, the worse part is I have no clue. Since Van’s doesn’t do any parts tracking.
I have to assume an entire wing kit and half of a fuselage kit. That is a lot of parts if you haven’t seen the list.
I’m with you on this thought. Bailouts teach nothing about how things need to be done for future longevity. I’m real deep into this LCP issue. Here’s the reality though; it only takes 6100 retail dollars to rebuild everything in my build affected with these LCP. THAT’S RETAIL!
This issue is not going to break the bank unless Van’s has a gross mismanagement of funds issue going on internally.
337 total parts. That’s to rebuild everything in my Emp and wing kit (if I salvage the spars) and replace every LCP in my unstarted fuse kit. I am building a -10.
KatanaPilot
Well Known Member
What is the difference between this situation and the previous issue with corrosion? A lot of people had their QB kits replaced (wisely in my opinion) versus taking a few dollars from Van's. If someone has LCP in their QB kit, I think they have every right to expect a replacement QB without LCP. Likewise, someone who has built a stabilizer or fuel tank with affected LCP has the right to expect replacement of all the parts required to rebuild the component.
And I agree that Van's needs to own this and suffer monetarily. What I don't want to see is this push them over a cliff.
And I agree that Van's needs to own this and suffer monetarily. What I don't want to see is this push them over a cliff.
I do think most people would be fairly satisfied with what you stated. However it’s my opinion that is not what is going to happen. If they were going to own the situation and recall all LCP then doing the testing would be pointless. Plus I would expect doing so might push them over a cliff so they will be looking to avoid that.
Jonnyb
Well Known Member
They should have had the new press last year, but if the intention wasn’t to move production in house when the new press arrived, how come they have the capacity to do just that? Surely it would be a huge waste of money to keep out sourcing when you have in house capacity going spare?
Plus, their last batch of laser cut parts was June. This issue didn’t really kick off until July, by which time they had already moved production back in house.
I think the testing is important for those who have assembled components. If testing shows LCP parts will last longer than the expected lifespan of the airframe, some builders who don't want to start over may just continue building without replacing parts.
I hope you are right but I have a hard time seeing the ability for them to replace entire kits. If that is the plan they should come out and say so because people on here are worried they will only replace spars and maybe not even the pieces attached to them.
I can maybe suck up the entire year of building and neglecting other things.
Mikeyb
Well Known Member
I read the best of the best build pages on VAF before I started. A common theme was something bad was going to happen during your build. So bad you are going to want to quit. I got a set of the poorly built QB wings which busted my hump. I don’t even think about it now. It pales in comparison to the people who got the bad crankshafts. A guy posted an add the other day selling what was left of a sweet RV8 he ground looped at 30 hours. You are one bird strike away from a major rebuild.
If getting stopped for 6 months or rebuilding your tail is your bad thing count your blessings.
100,000 views and 661 posts in one month. No wonder Vans isn’t talking.
If getting stopped for 6 months or rebuilding your tail is your bad thing count your blessings.
100,000 views and 661 posts in one month. No wonder Vans isn’t talking.
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Jonnyb
Well Known Member
Vans has already stated there are very few laser cut parts in QB kits. Ryan said so in the OSH presentation.
IMHO the testing will show what needs to be recalled and what doesn’t. Recall parts will be replaced and builders given “assistance”. Every thing else will be replaced FOC, but will be builder choice.
IMHO the testing will show what needs to be recalled and what doesn’t. Recall parts will be replaced and builders given “assistance”. Every thing else will be replaced FOC, but will be builder choice.
Mark33
Well Known Member
We’re all very hopeful that the engineering analysis comes back showing that the LCP’s are as good, if not better than the punch parts. I’m sure findings such as this will allow a lot of people to breathe a sigh of relief…especially those that have a lot of time invested in building various components. However, with that being said, I for one didn’t subscribe to this when I purchased my QB kit, and I won’t settle for anything less than what I paid for.
So, just playing the devil’s advocate, let’s say the LCP’s analysis comes back showing that the parts are just as good or better than the punched parts. This would then beg the question as to why Vans wouldn’t just stay the course and continue to produce LCP? Why would they switch back to punched parts? I think we all know the answer to that.
So, the bottom line is, if my QB kit contains any parts in it that won’t continue to be used in new kits, than I deserve to have my QB kit replaced if I so desire. Don’t get me wrong, I’m willing to work with Vans as much as possible, but I’m not going to settle for subpar parts that “testing” says is fine and I’m also not going to start dismantling my QB kit to replace parts. Vans needs to give the builders a wide margin of lead way regarding how they (the builder) wants to move forward. When all the smoke clears, I only want what I paid for….nothing more, and certainly nothing less. Is this asking for too much?
Jonnyb
Well Known Member
This is from Greg on a different thread:
“First of all, we want to let you know that we’ve recently shifted manufacturing of many of our laser-cut parts back to our in-house punch presses. We recently installed and commissioned an additional punch press and we now have a fully staffed team/shifts. While a return to manufacturing on the punch presses has always been part of our plan, the timing of this specific decision was also influenced by the dimple cracking problems recently reported on certain parts manufactured using laser cutting. Not all laser-cut parts have proven to be problematic, but to a certain extent some have. So, we made the decision to accelerate bringing them back in-house while we perform additional tests with a focus on dimples with cracks representative of those reported by some of our customers”
“First of all, we want to let you know that we’ve recently shifted manufacturing of many of our laser-cut parts back to our in-house punch presses. We recently installed and commissioned an additional punch press and we now have a fully staffed team/shifts. While a return to manufacturing on the punch presses has always been part of our plan, the timing of this specific decision was also influenced by the dimple cracking problems recently reported on certain parts manufactured using laser cutting. Not all laser-cut parts have proven to be problematic, but to a certain extent some have. So, we made the decision to accelerate bringing them back in-house while we perform additional tests with a focus on dimples with cracks representative of those reported by some of our customers”
So let me ask you a question.
My QB fuselage was impacted by:
https://www.vansaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/sb16-12-16.pdf
now fixing this requires drilling 1 inch holes into the gold anodized center section which now exposes it to possible corrosion. Who knows if it will reduce resale $$ .. .
Certainly not something that was advertised as a feature when I bought my QB fuselage.
So using your logic does that mean Van's should have given me a new fuselage instead of just publishing the SB? They didn't even pay for the bolts.
I am not trying to minimize the severity of the laser cut issue and the cost and work involved is certainly much higher. (even though missing center section bolts are pretty sever if you asked me) However, it seems that its common in the industry that those types of mistakes are not being fixed on the suppliers $$ but on the customer $$.
So what's different here?
Oliver
cgeyman
Well Known Member
Try to chill
Just picked up my finish kit. Still lots of essentials back ordered. Still am amazed at the quality of parts and design. Greg told me just try to “wait for the science”, meaning until fatigue testing is done, it is hard to make a plan. I will likely build a new rudder, elevators, flaps and aileons, but it sure is easier and better the second or third time around. As long as the company focuses on airworthiness, over the long haul we will be alright.
Cal
Just picked up my finish kit. Still lots of essentials back ordered. Still am amazed at the quality of parts and design. Greg told me just try to “wait for the science”, meaning until fatigue testing is done, it is hard to make a plan. I will likely build a new rudder, elevators, flaps and aileons, but it sure is easier and better the second or third time around. As long as the company focuses on airworthiness, over the long haul we will be alright.
Cal
Mark33
Well Known Member
Here are the undisputed facts. Vans has historically built and delivered parts to their customers with punched, rather than laser cut holes. Yes, there are some parts that have always been produced using lasers, but for this conversion we’re talking about the current parts that are in question.
There’s a defined timeline between when they switched from punch to laser cutting and now back to the punch technique. Why?…for obvious reasons.
I’m sure the reasoning for switch to the laser method was to speed up production and to possibly save money….which I don’t begrudge them for doing….it only makes good business sense.
It’s now been discovered that this process isn’t compatible with a quality product so the decision has been made to go back to the tried and trued way of producing these parts.
I know we don’t live in a perfect world, and even under the best of circumstances they’ll always be gremlins that pop their heads up; but when they do, a service bulletin is published with instructions on how to fix the problem.
However, this current issue has barely made it off the factory floor and has been identified as an obvious issue that needs fixing. If the problems with laser cut parts wouldn’t have shown up until many years down the road, I don’t think anyone would be pointing the finger at Vans or saying bad things, but this is an issue that’s slapping us in the face even before the first airplane has flown with these defective parts.
Like I stated before, I truly hope the engineering analysis shows that these LCP’s or as good or better than punched parts and if so, I’m sure they’ll be people that’ll “build on”.
However, for me, and I think for a lot of builders, this isn’t what we paid for and the burden of taking a chance that our airplanes will start developing cracks at some point down the road shouldn’t be our risk to take. Do I think any of these airplanes are going to fall out of the sky because of these cracks?….no, probably not….but that still doesn’t negate the issue at hand.
Ask yourself this question: Knowing what we know now, if you had two identical airplanes to choose from with the only difference being that one was built with parts that the engineering analysis said the laser cut parts were good to go, and the other one was built with punched parts, which one would you choose?
So, once again, I only want what I paid for and I don’t think that’s asking for too much, and that’s my logic behind the way I see the situation.
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According to that SB:
“This hardware is NOT installed during the QB assembly process at the factory”
AND
“This hardware was included with all RV-8 QuickBuild Fuselage kits”
That reads like a SB resulting from builders commonly overlooking work they needed to do to complete their QB fuselages. That’s quite a bit different.
Then let’s take SB 16-03-28, the cracks in the aft spar near the flap brackets.
https://www.vansaircraft.com/service-information-and-revisions/sb-16-03-28/
If that SB came out a few weeks after you got your QB wings, would you also want new QB wings?
Now, irrespective of whether the LCP issue warrants a complete QB replacement, who would be willing to pay 2 way shipping to return a QB and get a replacement?
Vans will not be able to pay for that. It’s thousands of dollars in shipping, they can’t take such a big loss on QBs. They wouldn’t survive.
Most builders won’t want to pay either.
I think shipping alone makes QB replacements a non-viable option.
I have pretty much avoided posting anything on this subject because it is not appropriate with me no longer working on the inside but I don't think Greg would mind me stating that with everything I know about this subject, this issue occurred exclusively out of the desire to meet customers expectations for a reasonable delivery time from when they placed an order for a particular kit.
There is a finite amount of production that can be done with the machinery that is currently in the factory building. Even running multiple shifts, around the clock, wasn't going to increase the production volume enough to make a very big reduction in lead times.
The switch to some laser'ed parts was because that is the production technology that was available locally at the time.
Mark33
Well Known Member
So are you suggesting that the builder, who already paid for shipping once, should also be responsible for two more shipments? No way!…I’ve already held up my end of the bargain.
KatanaPilot
Well Known Member
Apples and oranges
I'll say this again. When the corrosion issue happened (also a failure of Van's QA) - customers were offered a choice of QB kit replacement or a "rebate" (I think it was $4K per kit?). Van's picked up a lot of QB kits around the country to return them to Aurora. Stewart Transport stayed busy doing this for quite a while. Replacement QB kits were shipped out when they became available. All at Van's expense, if I recall correctly. I have no idea how many kits are potentially involved in the LCP issue, but it could also be substantial. It should be builders choice whether or not to accept the kit - just like it was with the corrosion issue.
As to the SB listed, a new kit is not going to have cracks - therefore compliance with the SB is not recommended (per the SB language). Some builders may choose to install anyway as a preventative measure, but that should be on the builder, not Van's.
On the RV-10's, the main gear mounts were changed a couple of years ago as a result of cracks forming in some mounts. A service letter was issued to operators to inspect for cracks. During a transition period, QB fuselage kits were shipped with the Service Bulletin (SB-00007) parts in the crate (not installed). Builders were expected to install these parts, which involved drilling the center carry through and a series of somewhat complex tasks. Drilling jigs and detailed instructions accompanied these parts. However, it did not involve drilling out hundreds of rivets, removal of ribs, tank baffles, spars, etc. - tasks that have the potential to damage thin skins and other components. So some SB's can be accomplished by the builder with minimal risk of additional damage, some tasks (like removal of a LCP tank baffle on a completed tank) cannot.
I'll say this again. When the corrosion issue happened (also a failure of Van's QA) - customers were offered a choice of QB kit replacement or a "rebate" (I think it was $4K per kit?). Van's picked up a lot of QB kits around the country to return them to Aurora. Stewart Transport stayed busy doing this for quite a while. Replacement QB kits were shipped out when they became available. All at Van's expense, if I recall correctly. I have no idea how many kits are potentially involved in the LCP issue, but it could also be substantial. It should be builders choice whether or not to accept the kit - just like it was with the corrosion issue.
As to the SB listed, a new kit is not going to have cracks - therefore compliance with the SB is not recommended (per the SB language). Some builders may choose to install anyway as a preventative measure, but that should be on the builder, not Van's.
On the RV-10's, the main gear mounts were changed a couple of years ago as a result of cracks forming in some mounts. A service letter was issued to operators to inspect for cracks. During a transition period, QB fuselage kits were shipped with the Service Bulletin (SB-00007) parts in the crate (not installed). Builders were expected to install these parts, which involved drilling the center carry through and a series of somewhat complex tasks. Drilling jigs and detailed instructions accompanied these parts. However, it did not involve drilling out hundreds of rivets, removal of ribs, tank baffles, spars, etc. - tasks that have the potential to damage thin skins and other components. So some SB's can be accomplished by the builder with minimal risk of additional damage, some tasks (like removal of a LCP tank baffle on a completed tank) cannot.
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Yeah we know. People warned Van’s about the dangers of vastly overselling manufacturing capabilities and cutting corners.
Did the corrosion issue involve virtually every kit (QB or SB) shipped over an 18-month window? The scope and scale involved with the LCP issue may change the calculus some.
KatanaPilot
Well Known Member
Completely valid point.
The corrosion issue only affected QB kits. Suspect that the numbers from that time are comparatively lower than the current issue, given that the corrosion issue occurred during Covid - with production curtailed and the massive shipping issues. You would have to ask Van's as to how many kits were recalled then versus the potential impact today, although it's doubtful they would share that info.
I'd be willing to wager the end result of this will be that testing will show minimal impact on fatigue life and Van's will offer some support as they have already indicated. So it will be left to the builder to decide whether to accept that coupon testing correlates to full scale components, the DAR's will sign off on planes with LCP and/or that resale value won't be adversely affected.
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