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Dispelling the myths around "lithium" battery fires
- Thread starter bertschb
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This involves no simultaneous pushing and pulling of throttle and mixture while holding a key in your third hand, and no incantations, all while arguing on the internet?!?!
Sacrilege!!!Did you reverse that? Carburated/mag fired engines are generally very easy to start. It may be an urban legend, but I've heard people used to have methods for starting those engines without a battery OR starter. Not gonna happen with FI or EI. Seems to me the LI battery folks are trying to sell me something that costs 2-3 times as much, has a larger risk (note the shipping disclaimer on EarthX's website), and offers me the practical benefit of being lighter. That is advantageous, but does it outweigh the lower cost and simplicity of a lead acid battery? That's for the buyer to determine.It's interesting how fuel injection and EI gotchas are trying to help the lead acid battery make the winning argument against lithium
Don't think this fellow would agree with that!
https://vansairforce.net/threads/rv-7-io-360-thunderbolt-with-dual-p-mags-aog.236233/
Referring to a batteries chemistry by just the dominant element of the cathode (Lithium, or Lead) is a pet peeve of mine. It's right up there with claiming that the High "Silicone" content in the oil analysis report is from the gaskets under the valve covers.
Thanks @bertschb for stirring this pot (again).
The whole debate and belief system around "Lithium" batteries comes from the publics confusion between precision and accuracy; urban myths and old wives tales get created as a result, and thus we have to bear the burden of misunderstood "facts", which informs our risk analysis, and choices...
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I just finished eating my lunch, but I need to wait 1/2 hour before I go swimming. (ROFL)
Thanks @bertschb for stirring this pot (again).
The whole debate and belief system around "Lithium" batteries comes from the publics confusion between precision and accuracy; urban myths and old wives tales get created as a result, and thus we have to bear the burden of misunderstood "facts", which informs our risk analysis, and choices...
[break]
I just finished eating my lunch, but I need to wait 1/2 hour before I go swimming. (ROFL)
You're welcome
What I find really strange about this topic is this is one of the VERY few that I actually understand (at least to a limited degree). Most of the things my fellow forum members discuss is so far over my head that I get dizzy reading about them.
I shared the YouTube video in my original post with the hopes that people might learn about the differences between LiFePO4 batteries and other battery chemistries as it relates to thermal runaway risks. I failed miserably in that regard. I wasn't trying to get people to switch from lead acid. Just trying to get them to see LiFePO4 (Earth-X) batteries aren't going to blow up or suddenly catch fire. Can't happen!! Oh well....
If I'm smart, I'll just ignore all future threads on this topic.
Nah, don't give up. The vast majority of people appreciated you sharing this, and just quietly said "cool, good to know!" and moved on with their lives. You'll never get 100% of the people to agree that the sun's up at noon even if it's burning their eyes.
Not exactly true. The LiFePO chemistry can still have "thermal runaway" or exotherm, but the resulting peak temperature (due to internal energy/mass ratio and chemistry) is much lower than other high energy density formulations and barely within the melting range of the case material. It will give off gas, but not spew flame geysers.So, we agree EarthX uses a "safe" type of battery chemistry, and we do not need to worry about thermal runaway. (I've been saying that for almost 10 years), let's move on and let Walt start installing these.
The original formulation was developed with over $400M of DOE money then allowed the company to fail and purchased by a Chinese company. Sad story. A123 (USA) was the original company that did the development and owned the patents.
I used to use A123 cells as my receiver packs for RC helis "back in the day". I missed them when they went under.
I used to work in a place called "Power Sources Technology Group" for one of the national labs. I've seen lots of videos on the differences in behavior between a LiPo and a LiFePO batteries. In one test, they would use a press to slowly push a steel rod through a fully charged battery. The LiPo packs would REALLY demonstrate how pissed off they were. No so much with LiFePO batteries.
Same, A123 for RX packs on nitros, but full on LIPOS for electrics ... love to watch them burn ... replacing the heli, not so much. Team Synergy FTW!
For anyone considering putting a large (main) lithium battery in their plane consider this. Matson shipping lines will no longer transport electric cars to or from Hawaii because of numerous instances of the cars catching on fire, while en route and in several cases sinking the ship. The inter island shipper "Young Brothers" is now considering a ban as well. Amazon will not ship anything to Hawaii that has any type of lithium battery. The airlines do not allow any lithium battery products in your checked bag.
Those who may be considering removing a perfectly capable battery like an Odyssey to replace it with a lithium battery would be well advised to consider this. If only certain types of lithium are considered dangerous, why are these restrictions all encompassing and becoming more common? The would be experts on the different chemistry's of lithium batteries ignore the obvious, if it isn't broken, don't fix it. Saving a few pounds at the risk of dying from lithium fumes or fire is not a good trade. I have owned many fuel injected, high compression Lycomings with magnetos over the years and never had a problem starting them without a lithium battery.
Flame away lithium proponents (no pun intended)
Those who may be considering removing a perfectly capable battery like an Odyssey to replace it with a lithium battery would be well advised to consider this. If only certain types of lithium are considered dangerous, why are these restrictions all encompassing and becoming more common? The would be experts on the different chemistry's of lithium batteries ignore the obvious, if it isn't broken, don't fix it. Saving a few pounds at the risk of dying from lithium fumes or fire is not a good trade. I have owned many fuel injected, high compression Lycomings with magnetos over the years and never had a problem starting them without a lithium battery.
Flame away lithium proponents (no pun intended)
Is anyone aware of a LiFePO4 battery whose failure was implicated in a crash in a general aviation aircraft? I could not find one, but perhaps my "google-fu" is not as good as yours.
@Chukill - I think we all agree that LiPo batteries like you have in your iphone and other electronics can cause a fire and lots of smoke, and I'm happy that they are not allowed in checked baggage. The batteries most are using to replace the Odyssey batteries are LiFePO4 (a.k.a. LFP) and are far less volatile.
@Chukill - I think we all agree that LiPo batteries like you have in your iphone and other electronics can cause a fire and lots of smoke, and I'm happy that they are not allowed in checked baggage. The batteries most are using to replace the Odyssey batteries are LiFePO4 (a.k.a. LFP) and are far less volatile.
Its just crazy how the uninformed react to this topic. Please educate yourself. LiFe is very different from Li-On or LIPo. It was designed exactly to remove the heat/fire hazard. And let's be real, even a Lead acid battery will generate significant heat/fire in the right circumstances.
any thoughts on the safety of hydrogen explosions while (over) charging the Lead Acid batteries?
Because governance, enforcement, etc. is easiest to administer with a wide, "all or nothing" approach. The associated tech changes and advances at a greater rate than the related governance. There's no UL stamp or similar on either the battery or device. As a shipper or air carrier, I'd probably consider similar bans because the battery chemistry(ies) cannot be verified. it wouldn't keep me from contracting with dedicated, known shippees that have vetted their proposed cargo.
That said, there is enough information available for someone to make an informed, safe decision regarding battery chemistry application in their personal aircraft.
It's crazy how the "informed" react to this topic. Please educate yourself.
Why are there (growing) prohibitions on shipping ANY lithium battery on commercial planes and ships, if some are safe?
Any type of lithium battery has the potential to create toxic fumes if damaged in say an engine fire after you survived the crash. Why take the chance of that if not necessary? I am not against progress or too stupid to know the differences in Lithium chemistry. The very basic concept of risk/reward is at play here. Saving a few pounds or living with hard starting issues instead of fixing the cause and/or learning the proper procedures is not a sufficient reward to justify adding a dangerous solution to the mix.
Wet lead acid batteries do need to be vented overboard to remove any build-up hydrogen gasses. But why use a wet battery when the AGM ones work so well, do not require venting, and last for many years?
Seems like we've gone from fact finding to just opinions.
Make sure you leave your mobile phone, laptop, and portable chargers, portable lights, toys, etc, at home too. If one fails, assuming you can get to it, you'll have to somehow open the cockpit to dispose if it, while it's on fire.
The choice to use EarthX is a simple risk vs reward assessment.
Meanwhile, there are hundreds of cars burning to the ground every day from 12-volt fires.
No minds are being changed here. Might be time to file this topic right next to "Primer Wars".
Now where did I put that horse and buggy ...
Make sure you leave your mobile phone, laptop, and portable chargers, portable lights, toys, etc, at home too. If one fails, assuming you can get to it, you'll have to somehow open the cockpit to dispose if it, while it's on fire.
The choice to use EarthX is a simple risk vs reward assessment.
Meanwhile, there are hundreds of cars burning to the ground every day from 12-volt fires.
No minds are being changed here. Might be time to file this topic right next to "Primer Wars".
Now where did I put that horse and buggy ...
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Since a large percentage of logistics workers aren't going to take the time to learn or understand the difference between LiFePo and LiCo/LiPoly chemsitries; easier to ban "LITHIUM" than to try to educate the folks who handle them about the differences, how to assess risk, etc.
Similarly, this is why folks are terrified of "RADIATION"...(but still go outside to get a tan, watch TV, listen to the radio, cook popcorn.)
Hate to say it. But, this isn't the only thread that fits your description.
Maybe others are looking at it the way I am.. its extremely lite and somehow making more power than an AGM battery... must get REAL HOT ... and me not want REAL HOT in my plane. So maybe not great thinkin... but it is what it is, thats how some of us think. Should have not thought bitcoin was some stupid joke when it was .79 back in 2010.... a $100. gamble at .79 in 2010 would be 14 million today..... and I wouldnt be here writing this.. but would still not put earthx in my plane
Nope - runs nice and cool. Been on my firewall since 2018, no issues.
Was just an example... same as thinking bitcoin was a joke 15 years ago.. could have turned a measly hundred bucks into 14 million dollars.. but thats how you think if you dont feel like researching.. Im going to keep on seeing that UPS 747 first officer burning up alive over dubai everytime I hear earthx, just the way it is
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There are folks that sailed on the Mayflower, and those that didn't...
There are folks that sailed on the Titanic, and those that didn't...
This is why... its enough for some of us.
But if earthx was serious about converting more pilots.. they would be smart and sell the batteries for less than Gill and Odyssey so the non rich pilots that are sill trying to recover from 150% increase in avgas 5 years ago.. lower the price of the battery to get more pilots to consider it. Until than we are going to think Lithium = fire and death
But if earthx was serious about converting more pilots.. they would be smart and sell the batteries for less than Gill and Odyssey so the non rich pilots that are sill trying to recover from 150% increase in avgas 5 years ago.. lower the price of the battery to get more pilots to consider it. Until than we are going to think Lithium = fire and death
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That checks out ... lower price equates to safety and reliability ... got it
Kind of like the vapes that blow up in pockets....time to go bye bye.
Yep. Next rules vio it gets locked.
v/r,dr
FMI:
v/r,dr
FMI:
POSTING RULES
VAF Forum Posting Rules Welcome! For 99.9% of the world, our RVs are a hobby. An escape. But online these days, it seems the medium can bring out the worst in some folks. I certainly don't profess to understand the dynamic. Having said that, I require this to be a no-drama environment...
www.vansairforce.net
Study Henry Ford and how he made a car affordable to everyone in 1909. Safe, reliable and everyone could afford one. Dont have to be expensive to be safe and reliable LOLThat checks out ... lower price equates to safety and reliability ... got it
Here is a link for you https://corporate.ford.com/articles/history/the-model-t.html
I just about burned my house down charging a LiPo RC plane battery. I can still visualize the black smoke down at my eye level and the flames on the workbench when I opened the door to investigate the pop I heard.
For now I'll be using an AGM battery. I have admittedly been lazy about educating myself about any Lithium batteries because of my experience. I also try to keep an open mind and never say never.
On a positive note, I did get a job offer from the FD captain after I explained how I handled the situation until they showed up
.what household things use Lipo? is this labled on the battery itself? Cell phones? My parents use a portable hotspot for home internet and it has rechargable batteries that swell up over time.. wonder if these are lipo or life batteries
And now we’re back to the original post:
LiPo and LiFePO4 are completely different chemistries. LiPo is dangerous.
LiFePO4? Not nearly as much.
I like my cars to have seatbelts.
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Sam Buchanan
been here awhile
Ok.....this thread is continuing to run off into places VAF doesn't populate. Thread locked.
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