That's what I use on my 7. Still tight but doable with the Tempest filter. A little more room with the K&N 1002 filters I use now. Be about the same when I start using my reusable.
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Reusable oil filter
- Thread starter WingnutWick
- Start date
Ha! I knew that! That is what I have! How do you torque it on now? My mind is always trying to figure out something, sometimes pretty bizarre! This is what I came up with today. Went out to the hangar to see if there was a 3/8" square anything that would adapt. Nope. I remember somewhere in my distant mechanical past using a breaker bar (the only thing that would fit) and using a fish scale (
) to measure the pounds of pull. I have a more sophisticated scale I use to weigh my racing bicycles that measures pounds in 0.1 accuracy. Put at the one foot distance from the center of the breaker bar would give you foot/pounds.....and make everyone around you laugh.....
Is this what you mean by "too big"? I've been holding off installing mine until the results from Dans experiment was published. Just inspected mine. I removed the O-ring that came with the filter and tried O-rings from two separate batches, and both fit as the one in the picture. When I went to put the original O-ring back in same issue. To me it appears would be very easy not to notice if the O-ring popped out of the groove upon installation especially if it had excessive pre-lube applied. These O-rings come with a minimal amount of some sort of lubricant. What helps is after install to "message" the ring around the filter redistributing the slight excess material.yep, this ain't good...
Along my S15 I ordered 10 spare o-rings... used the first o-ring for about 300 hours, and then, upon trying to install one of them spares, noticed that all had too big a diameter, though the height of the H seal was correct.
Luckily I was saved by rv8ch who provided some o-rings of the right size (thanks again Mickey).
Some engine stuff is critical. This o-ring, same as the Andair gascolator o-ring, is critical. Requires the right size, some lubrication, a proper torque, and safety wiring.
Attachments
Mike S
Senior Curmudgeon
My unit came with a similar unit specific to the filter.Any chance one of these auto filter wrenches could be used with a 3/8"drive torque wrench? There many sizes and styles to fit auto filters. Just a thought.
Hi dmattmull, it's been a couple of months now... but I still recall them seals being large enough to not safely fit inside the filter's groove and stay put, e.g. somewhat larger than what your pic shows. I assumed (in aviation never assume, so was I told by my first training captain a couple (of dozens...) of years ago) that there were different sizes available and I just got the wrong ones.
The cost is 3 or 4 times what I paid for mine when it first came out.
I wiped the inside of the S15 with the scotch bright pad and made sure there was lots of purple dust left inside the housing
All kidding aside, I make a point of replacing the O-ring after 2 changed -- as I mentioned earlier, they're pretty cheap.
Thanks !!
Same here. This makes it hard to use the low profile Tempest wrench however.
The automotive version comes with one, but the clearance to the firewall (RV-6, O-320, stock firewall) makes it unusable with a conventional torque wrench.
alpinelakespilot2000
Well Known Member
Another K&P S15 with O-ring damage...
This is what I found on my first oil change with the S15. Installed per instructions with light coat of oil before torquing. No leaks or pressure issues, but it doesn't give me warm and fuzzy feelings about this filter--definitely would not reuse the o-ring. Also thinking about going back to Tempest until this gets figured out.
This is what I found on my first oil change with the S15. Installed per instructions with light coat of oil before torquing. No leaks or pressure issues, but it doesn't give me warm and fuzzy feelings about this filter--definitely would not reuse the o-ring. Also thinking about going back to Tempest until this gets figured out.
Looks like one lobe of the X got pinched between the housing and the face of the engine's filter adapter.
I agree - I wonder if this was one of those X-rings that was slightly to large and got caught under the outer lip of the housing? We’re definitely still learning!
alpinelakespilot2000
Well Known Member
Can anyone confirm that the certified Challenger version of the S15 uses a similar or different o-ring style? It seems like it is the x profile of the ring that creates the potential issue. I may be a bit ham-fisted, but my experience makes me surprised that the FAA would sign off on such a fragile o-ring system.
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looking at the picture in post #266 makes me wonder... if too much oil in the upper groove kinda creates a hydraulic lock pushing the outer lip of the seal overboard when the filter is tightened.
I usually just wet my seal with some engine oil, same on the body....
Just an idea
I usually just wet my seal with some engine oil, same on the body....
Just an idea
1. How much torque was applied?
2. What's the oil filter flange face on the engine look like?
3. Will you remove the O-ring and share pictures of the groove?
I just compared that O ring between the Champion filter for the O320 as well as numerous other car and truck filters I have, and its a 1/4 of the thickness and width. I'll get the exact measurements tomorrow. Now Im not an O Ring expert but looking at that O Ring in comparison to any other O Ring Ive run, Im concerned and I won't be running this on my plane.
Not so sure of that, look at the ELTs they have signed off on.
OK: this thread freaked me out enough (and I don't freak out easily) that I needed to go check my S15 which has been oil-pressurized but the engine has not yet run. (SOON!) I torqued it to 18ft/lb by torque wrench at the time of installation. Pulling the filter: the "O" ring was well-seated and undamaged. It took a little bit of fingernail action to get it out. The inside of the groove and the bottom of the ring were dry. I decided just to replace it (I might keep the old ring around....) and tried several things. This is a new ring, fresh out of the package from the factory. No lube: it slipped in the groove with a VERY slight bulge. I then lubricated both sides with fresh oil. Put it in the filter and the slight bulge was still there but more difficult to get it to stay reduced (medical term): it rose up a bit more easily. Took it out and there was a small amount of oil in the groove. That likely was pressing on the ring causing it to rise up and the ring was lubricated on the sides as well. Cleaned up the groove of oil and the ring and slipped it back into place. There was still a slight raised section that would 'massage' down enough it might have been raised less than a mm. I SLOWLY put the filter on watching all areas (including what I could see with a mirror) and the ring matched up with the engine perfectly as I torqued it down hand-tight. Torque to 17ft/lb (between the recommended 15-18) and it turned less than one inch past 90 degrees marked with hand-tightening. Safety wire.
SO: do NOT put oil in the groove. Scant oil on the sides of the ring, and massage it down making sure it is mostly in the groove with maybe a small area raised up. Lubricate the outside of the seal and take it over to the engine. Do not bump it on ANYthing! Screw it into place and WATCH the edges of the filter housing to make sure the seal is going where it is supposed to. Hand tighten. No torque wrench? 15-16ft/lb might just be another 1/4 turn or a little past. Wipe of the bottom of the filer/engine mount to get all the oil off. Watch for leaks....IMHO; YMMV...
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......Pythagoras turns over in his grave. Yes, the correction is very small, within the noise and variance of the torque wrench, but C^2 = A^2 + B^2.
(I confess to being pedantic here -- for a 24" torque wrench with a 3" extension turned 90°, the effective length is 24 3/16". )
Going to Challenge Mr. Smith's assumptions/perspective. I've done stupider things.
I believe you're making/missing an assumption; that being that the applied force (F @ A) deviates relative to the torque wrench. It shouldn't. If looking at it another way, sum of moments @ B & C, net delta = 0.
Edit = Original image from phone didn't attach. Mr Smith is well respected and I'm not. Boy am I gonna hear it if I'm seeing this wrong.
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Assuming that the angle formed at the AB-BC is 90°, your math is off a bit -- CA = 24.186"
One more thing to consider, changing your grip location (F) will also increase/decrease the torque that's applied.
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Sorry, It's 24.19 is smudgy white board marker.
In general, no Sir. The Torque wrench is reacting to torque at the head; hence, the moment sum reference. Even if a beam torque wrench is used, a properly designed one has the annoying pivoting handle. This is to help ensure a fixed beam length for measuring material deflection (versus actual torque) but the result(ant torque) at the head is the same.
You're right...I failed my thought experiment...
And this is why you get a torque RANGE for almost every fastener….aim for the center and the minor variations won’t matter….
Scott is correct if you are careful to pull on the torque wrench perpendicular to the handle of the wrench. It is difficult to resist the tendency to pull perpendicular to the effective line of action though - line A-C. When you do that, not only is the lever slightly longer, but the force is also slightly larger at the moment the torque wrench 'clicks'. (both by less than 1%, so we really are splitting hairs).
Pulling exactly perpendicular to the wrench is not as important when no extension is used, since the torque is only due to the perpendicular component of your pull.
Note that it is easier to do a good job of pulling perpendicular to the wrench if you always push in the direction that tends to hold the crow's foot on, rather than pull it off. Clockwise in Scott's drawing. In either case, you are (perhaps subconsciously) also applying a lateral force at the 'nut' to counteract the lateral force you are putting on the wrench, which of course contributes no moment at the nut.
Fun Stuff! Thanks Scott for the added detail.
Pilot135pd
Well Known Member
Just as my mind starts to drift off thinking I might just build one, I read those posts and say, nope, I'll have to wait for a good used one again.
I went and took some measurements of the O-ring of this S15 filter and compared it to the Champion 48108 and a Cummins 5.9 filter.
The S15 O-ring stuck out 0.5 mm proud and 3.06 mm wide.
The Champion 48108 stuck out 2.40 mm proud and 4.4 mm wide
The Cummins stuck out 2.8 mm proud and 4.5 mm wide.
I checked against a filter for a V10 Viper, and it was similar to Cummins.
Attached is a foto to show the comparison and it was difficult to get a good one but gives us an idea as the S15 O-ring doesn’t have much to compress before you bottom out. I realize that there is only so much meat on the body of the housing and that there are limitations to what they can cut for an O-ring. (I bet reducing the cannister size to cut costs)
Dan 57 on post #210 mentioned that he felt that he was bottoming out the housing when making up his filter. That I thought was kind of strange. But after looking at this today, its clear that it’s easy enough to do with a compression of only ½ mm.
Over tightening, under torquing, any slight imperfection on the housing, any particle of anything in there and you will have a leak of some sort or another.
It probably has good filtering, and we will find out after the lab results come back, but any sort of leak and you’re not filtering nothing.
There is a reason why the automotive filters and the standard aviation filters are set up with similar size and style of O-rings.
It seems that there are more and more reports of problems with this filter and O-ring. It’s only a matter of time before there is a serious accident.
Personally, I’m going to sit back on the sidelines and watch. I won’t be running mine and will stick with what I know works.
The risk versus the reward isn’t worth it in my mind unless someone else comes up with a solution to this, mine will be sitting on the shelf.
Tim
The S15 O-ring stuck out 0.5 mm proud and 3.06 mm wide.
The Champion 48108 stuck out 2.40 mm proud and 4.4 mm wide
The Cummins stuck out 2.8 mm proud and 4.5 mm wide.
I checked against a filter for a V10 Viper, and it was similar to Cummins.
Attached is a foto to show the comparison and it was difficult to get a good one but gives us an idea as the S15 O-ring doesn’t have much to compress before you bottom out. I realize that there is only so much meat on the body of the housing and that there are limitations to what they can cut for an O-ring. (I bet reducing the cannister size to cut costs)
Dan 57 on post #210 mentioned that he felt that he was bottoming out the housing when making up his filter. That I thought was kind of strange. But after looking at this today, its clear that it’s easy enough to do with a compression of only ½ mm.
Over tightening, under torquing, any slight imperfection on the housing, any particle of anything in there and you will have a leak of some sort or another.
It probably has good filtering, and we will find out after the lab results come back, but any sort of leak and you’re not filtering nothing.
There is a reason why the automotive filters and the standard aviation filters are set up with similar size and style of O-rings.
It seems that there are more and more reports of problems with this filter and O-ring. It’s only a matter of time before there is a serious accident.
Personally, I’m going to sit back on the sidelines and watch. I won’t be running mine and will stick with what I know works.
The risk versus the reward isn’t worth it in my mind unless someone else comes up with a solution to this, mine will be sitting on the shelf.
Tim
Not often I get to correct a fellow aeronautical engineer, but Pythagoras can sleep easy. The effective length is still 24" if you are pulling perpendicular to the handle of the wrench.
It's clear you've already made up your mind on this, but... "How far each O-ring sticks out" is not a measure of how effective the seal will be. Without knowing the elastic properties of each O-ring, you can't say whether a 0.5mm, 2mm, or 8mm protrusion would be appropriate. The rubber used on the X-type O-ring on the S-15 is not the same as the rubber used on the disposable Champion filter, and doesn't work the same way to seal the gap. Without giving a course on O-ring sealing, suffice to say that It's engineered differently. I don't recall the O-ring on my reusable filter sticking out only 0.5mm, but i'll look at it on my next oil change. It hasn't leaked yet, but i've had leaks on disposable filters before on my car, so I know they aren't infallable either.
Tech manual for Quad rings here https://o-ring.info/en/o-ring/technical handbook/21 - eriks nv - o-ring technical handbook - quad-ring x-ring.pdf
The S-15 housing uses the .139” x-ring, the crush spec is .017” so it will protrude very little out of the gland.
The S-15 housing uses the .139” x-ring, the crush spec is .017” so it will protrude very little out of the gland.
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Wow! An amazing treatise on Quad rings! Now I can see why those were chosen over flat or round rings....!
If Robinson helicopter doesn’t require saftey wire on a shaking, vibrating helicopter, I think I’ll be ok.. I’ve never seen a filter come loose.. they are always tighter than when they were put on..
Lots of other places where I wouldn’t mind seeing saftey wire, but aren’t.. Oil hoses, fuel lines.. ect.. but the oil filter? Naaa not needed
Neither have I, the more so the standard filter square seal combination.
Still, the standard filters have the tabs for the safety wire, why not use it? And yes, I drilled and safety wire my S15 everytime.
I bet there are many parts on an engine, or an RV as a matter of fact, which are safety wired, and which none of us has ever seen come loose...
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That's for sure - very interesting reading!
Some interesting points from the document:
- The Gow-Joule effect. The Quad-Ring®/X-Ring should not be installed in a stretched position around the shaft. The inner diameter of the Quad-Ring® /X-Ring needs to be 2-5% larger than the diameter of the shaft.
- The surface finish of the groove always has to be rougher than the surface finish of the shaft to avoid spinning.
- Lubrication of the Quad-Ring®/X-Ring reduces the frictional force, keeps the seal cool, and reduces the tendency of the seal to harden.
Yeah, but why NOT? Added safety: is that ever a bad thing? The top cooling ring on mine was easily drilled in multiple, evenly spaced places and is now safetied (is that a word?) the same way I did the 'standard' oil filters. Now I KNOW it ain't agonna come off!
Second oil change on a PC Racing PCS4B reuseable. Same initial square O ring.
I'll compare to new one later, but it seemed a bit extruded- it was NOT reversible in the housing groove. .142 tall, .062 proud of the housing in the groove.
As we run higher oil pressure and likely higher oil temperature, than many applications, I switched to a Wix 51068 for now.
Add- the new ring is square and reversible. .078 proud of the groove and .143 square.
I'll compare to new one later, but it seemed a bit extruded- it was NOT reversible in the housing groove. .142 tall, .062 proud of the housing in the groove.
As we run higher oil pressure and likely higher oil temperature, than many applications, I switched to a Wix 51068 for now.
Add- the new ring is square and reversible. .078 proud of the groove and .143 square.
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You are correct if in fact you pull perpendicular to the wrench. My observation is that people often don't. They tend to pull perpendicular to the 'line of action'. See post #286. Its a minor point either way.
All good information. It just does not apply to our filters.
glider_rider
Well Known Member
I'm not an expert in the field by any measure. Having said that, let me give you an example: when I installed the Tempest I got more or less a full 360 turn from initial contact of the seal with engine block till the filter was properly torqued. Not sure if Champion is any different in that aspect?
Why did Tempest and Champion design their filters with a big, fat, sticking out seal and not a fancy tiny quad ring?
Just completed my third oil change with the S-15. O-ring looked to be in new condition. I put it on just barely past hand tight and have had no issues yet. Maybe some of the issues are due to being over-tightened?
