Where do you land?

[rocketman1988]

I really appreciate what all you experienced dudes are sharing here, y'all may have just saved my future life. But, I cannot for the life of me understand how you can pick a touchdown point and hit it every time with so many variables associated. If you're coming in with the same IAS and I'm guessing similar aiming point on your stabilized approach, how do you account for all the variables to put it down where you want? For example, on your approach with a 20kt headwind at sea level vs winds calm at 8000 DA, I would assume your landing point would vary by a vast margin using similar IAS and approach profile. Do you take into account all these variables during your approach and adjust your aim point based off of this?

Yes.

That is why it is a PERISHABLE skill that needs to be practiced and refined. With practice, you will learn to make the aircraft do exactly what you want to facilitate a landing on the desired spot. Flying is not a static process, on the contrary, it is very dynamic and always changing.

I have experience with Steve K in Hartford Wisconsin. He runs a little flight school that trains in J-3 Cubs. Some time spent there would illustrate exactly what what we are discussion...

 

[rv8ch]

I really appreciate what all you experienced dudes are sharing here, y'all may have just saved my future life. But, I cannot for the life of me understand how you can pick a touchdown point and hit it every time with so many variables associated. If you're coming in with the same IAS and I'm guessing similar aiming point on your stabilized approach, how do you account for all the variables to put it down where you want? For example, on your approach with a 20kt headwind at sea level vs winds calm at 8000 DA, I would assume your landing point would vary by a vast margin using similar IAS and approach profile. Do you take into account all these variables during your approach and adjust your aim point based off of this?

You're getting a lot of great advice from some very experienced aviators. One thing to consider is that you need to practice. As a mental exercise, think about the other precision things you do in your life, like riding a bicycle. Are you constantly evaluating the exact speed of the bike, exact angle of your body, how much weight is on which side of the seat, RPM you are pedaling, how much pressure your left hand is putting on the handlebars, etc? No way you can do all this and stay upright. You practiced this a lot as a kid, and now it's second nature. You are doing all this stuff, but it's not a conscious activity. The more you land, the easier this becomes.

 

[YellerDaisy]

JD Finley: did you want to jump in here? www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOPHb1WDXOo&t=8s

Oh.... not really. It is difficult to have such a discussion in a forum environment. I will say that there is a very big difference between an 'FAA trained' or 'typical GA' pilot and one that truly understands flight, their airplane, and is able to acheive maximum performance. As suggested earlier in this thread, the former is usually just along for the ride and to talk on the radio.

As other's have noted, practice is key. If I don't fly and actually practice my skills three times per week - I do not consider myself current and in top form. That's not just landings in calm conditions but actually going out when the wind is blowing sideways, downwind landings, loops, cubans, stalls, spins, and so on. If there is a magic number/measuring stick for being in top form, I don't know what it is but I am certain it involves lots of time/iterations.

 

[YellerDaisy]

I feel like my plane, even at a consistent 75kt, will float to a different degree based off numerous factors including weight, winds, OAT, altitude, flap settings, etc.

Why "a consistent 75kt"?

Determining the stall speed for a given 'condition' (weight and DA) is easy. Stall the airplane in that condition before you land. Most won't like it but this is pretty typical for backcountry flying. You are loaded with camping gear, DA is out of sight, and you have a 1,800' airstrip. Well... during approach or even downwind (conditions permitting and all that), slow til you feel just a nible of the stall (I know, someone will argue with that term). Use that indicated airspeed x 1.2 and your unknowns are now known (stall speed and approach speed).

Btw... I don't know that 1.2 VS0 is a good short field approach speed for all RV's - it certainly is for an RV-3 and RV-4. 1.1 will work fine as well if a very steep approach is needed but 'requires' some power for the touchdown.

 

[SwimmingDragonfly96]

Two main reasons are:
1. That's more or less what I was taught
2. I feel like I'm landing a helicopter under 70kt with full flaps, and it just overall feels uncomfortable

Love all the practice suggestions. I usually get in my plane and fly SD to SF because that is my commute. Take off, aim her in the direction of my flight plan, hand fly sometimes, autopilot most times. I need to get out there and work myself out and get uncomfortable.

I was expecting to get bashed by everyone for questioning the system, but you guys are all so civil. Appreciate you.

P.S. - for reference I fly a 7A

 

[kenpilot]

The key to a good landing is a good approach. Even on the short ones, everything should be well-established early for your impending landing.

I only partially agree with this. A key to a good landing is a good approach at the very very end. For example, just today I flew up to Harrisburg, PA. Descended from a 9,500 cruise at 1200 fpm. Around 3,000 I recognized that it wasn't quite enough, so I did a quick 360. Kept the steep descent rate in the turn. Rolled out and entered downwind. Clouds over the river blocking my view of the airport until I turned final. I was still dodging clouds in the downwind-to-base turn. My downwind speed was somewhere around 110kt I think, maybe 90kt on base. Not sure, as the only time I checked speed throughout the whole thing was to verify I was below VFE before putting flaps out.

I still landed with a green AOA indicator and still exited at the taxiway I had planned. Please don't misunderstand. I'm not bragging. A crazy approach like that isn't anything to be proud of. It looks terrible on the flight track. But my point is that none of those factors had any bearing on (a) my aiming point, (b) the attitude of the aircraft at the point of touchdown or (c) what taxiway I exited at. The key factors were (a) green AOA on short final (the last 200 feet of altitude, I'd say), (b) all control pressures trimmed out, (c) extremely light finger pressure on the stick, (d) and a LOT of experience making landings from various types of approaches.

I would also differ a bit from others who have responded... I actually don't have a lot of experience landing this EXACT model. I actually only have 63 landings under my belt in an RV-6A. But I've done 3,000 landings total in my life. At a certain point, you can just feel (and HEAR) what's happening. You can sense how much excess energy the airplane has on final approach, and you have all the tools to correct it... power, slip, flaps, s-turns to increase the distance traveled, round out the base-final turn to decrease overall distance traveled, etc. When I fly a new model, what I have to figure out is the feel... if I touchdown in this attitude with this much speed, how long does the airplane roll... if I reduce the power this much on final, how fast does the speed bleed off.

I've been consistently taught to point towards the numbers, maintain a certain airspeed, and wait 'til I get that proper pitch of 8 degrees or so for the plane to settle onto the runway.

When you are an early student, there are so many things going on during a landing, that we CFIs have to find ways to simplify the process to get you over that hump. What you describe is the method I taught/teach initially, and I'd call out "Point A...B...C over the intercom". Before flight, we've already discussed what the student needed to do at each point:

• "Point A": the transition from descent to parallel to the ground. Student needed to be aware that the exact speed at that moment would affect how drastically the aircraft responded to the UP elevator input. The goal was to stop any "ballooning" instantly, because otherwise the entire approach was a mess. Student must learn that the pitch is going up-up-up during this section. ("8 degrees"? umm, no, trying to hold any particular number is a sure way to mess this up)
• "Point B": the aircraft has used up all the excess energy, so like it or not it begins to sink toward the surface. The goal here is to let it down gently and be ready to add a touch of power if absolutely necessary. Don't break the airplane.
• "Point C": the wheels touch. The goal was to maintain roughly the same pitch-up attitude as before the touchdown, don't let the nose down until you're good and ready. You haven't completed the maneuver yet.

But this was only a teaching tool, to help students identify what was happening in those 10 seconds. Then, we move on to actual landing technique... understanding that you have two "buckets of energy" (altitude and speed), and you must learn and practice how to (a) trade one for the other, (b) add energy to the system and direct it where to go, (c) subtract energy from the system and choose which bucket it is subtracted from. Once you learn that, it all starts to make sense.

And looking back to when I was learning to fly... truly understanding this "conservation of energy" concept was the aha moment when my landing approaches started becoming easy. I think this concept gets lost easily in the "pitch for altitude or pitch for speed" debates. When students would ask me that, I started answering with "Neither. You put in the control inputs necessary to move the energy where you need it to go."

Ultimately, the student must get a subconscious feel for it all... and that only comes from lots of hands-on practice that is NOT just plugging in numbers by rote memory. You need lots of practice "salvaging" approaches... taking any combination of position/altitude/airspeed/flaps/etc. and still getting the airplane to the target. What that "target" means is up to you, and I really don't think it matters much. What matters is that you learn to get to that target, regardless of the starting configuration.

If you're coming in with the same IAS and I'm guessing similar aiming point on your stabilized approach, how do you account for all the variables to put it down where you want? For example, on your approach with a 20kt headwind at sea level vs winds calm at 8000 DA, I would assume your landing point would vary by a vast margin using similar IAS and approach profile. Do you take into account all these variables during your approach and adjust your aim point based off of this?

I'm glad you mentioned wind. It's often overlooked. I personally don't do any calculations to account for wind (no time for that!), but I do subconsciously include it. When I know I have a headwind, my typical response is to fly a higher approach angle. That way I can still hold power at/near idle most of the way down final. In my RV-6A, even on a no-wind day, I need 3-white/1-red on the VASI to get that nice power-idle approach. So if I had a headwind, I'd probably fly a 4-white approach.

As a mental exercise, think about the other precision things you do in your life, like riding a bicycle. Are you constantly evaluating the exact speed...

I'll toss another analogy in there... merging into a highway. Do you start down the onramp saying "if I press the gas pedal by 0.37" of foot movement and then hold for 10 seconds, I'll get right between those two cars"? No. But you also don't just subconsciously know the perfect number of inches of foot movement either, because it's none of that. Rather, you know how your car behaves... how fast it accelerates, what engine sound is approximately highway speed. You know that it will accelerate faster on a downhill on-ramp. You don't need to calculate exactly how much. You just roll with the punches and you squeeze right in without ever touching your brakes.

 

[rocketman1988]

...and

Two main reasons are:
1. That's more or less what I was taught
2. I feel like I'm landing a helicopter under 70kt with full flaps, and it just overall feels uncomfortable

Love all the practice suggestions. I usually get in my plane and fly SD to SF because that is my commute. Take off, aim her in the direction of my flight plan, hand fly sometimes, autopilot most times. I need to get out there and work myself out and get uncomfortable.

I was expecting to get bashed by everyone for questioning the system, but you guys are all so civil. Appreciate you.

P.S. - for reference I fly a 7A

...and I would say we appreciate you having an open mind about these things!

Part of what we, umm, "experienced" guys should always do, is mentor the inexperienced part of our community.

 

[DCBrown198]

A VASI is to guide you safely down the approach path (normally 3 degrees) until you clearly have your intended touchdown point in sight.

Adjust your descent path to result in a touchdown at your desired location. All small aircraft will be solid RED/RED on a VASI when crossing the threshold (unless you desire to touchdown at or after the VASI).

Even on the 787 that I fly, if I want to flare and then touchdown at the Fixed Distance Marker (1000 ft down the runway) I have to deviate some below the VASI on short final to accomplish this. Crossing the threshold at 35 feet will get this done. The typical 50 foot above threshold height, that the VASI provides, will not.

As others have said...be where you want to be on final and on speed. They started bashing this into us airline pilot's heads about 15 years ago. The strict discipline they have forced on us in this regard has significantly reduced runway excursions (and close encounters). We have to be at final approach speed at 1000' IMC or 500' VMC. If not...we go around. This is different than the past. We land the same way every time now.

In single engine airplanes many of us were taught to fly a traffic pattern in a manner that assured a landing on the runway in the event of an engine failure. This, by its nature, leads you to bias to being higher, and possibly faster, than optimal. OK...if you are landing on an 8,000 ft runway I'll buy it. But if you are landing on a runway more typical at small GA airports, give priority to being on final "in the slot" and on speed. If you do this consistently, your landings will be consistent.

My observation over time has been that more airplanes have gotten in trouble by not being stable and on speed on final, than landing short because of an unexpected engine failure.

David

 

[swjohnsey]

DMMS, Defined Minimum Maneuvering Speed (1.404 x clean power off stall speed) until final. VREF (1.3 x stall speed configured to land) on final 'till past runway threshold. For me in my RV-4 this with 60 mph indicated clean stall is 84 mph DMMS and 70 mph VREF.

 

[clarenceoveur]

Wow

I had no idea it was this complicated.

 

[PilotjohnS]

Glad

I am glad I asked the question!!

 

[jrs14855]

Speed

DMMS, Defined Minimum Maneuvering Speed (1.404 x clean power off stall speed) until final. VREF (1.3 x stall speed configured to land) on final 'till past runway threshold. For me in my RV-4 this with 60 mph indicated clean stall is 84 mph DMMS and 70 mph VREF.

An amazing number of loss of control fatal's are traffic pattern accidents.
Maintaining the 1.4 x stall until final would probably have prevented some of those accidents.
Alternatively Dan's 130 knots of so until close to the runway would achieve the same result.
Of course neither works if you have to follow a Cub or whatever.
I don't agree with holding excess speed until over the runway. I make adjustments close in to touch down in the first 500'.

 

[Roadjunkie1]

Warning...........

An amazing number of loss of control fatal accidents are traffic pattern accidents.

One of the high accident rates/causes are the turn from base to final. The cause: you are coming around the corner and overshoot the centerline. What does it seem is the best corrective move? Push the rudder on the inside of the turn (left rudder in a left turn) to push the tail around and get the airplane straightened out, lined up with the centerline. Problem is that makes the down wing fly slower and the upper wing fly faster at a high angle of attack. The result: high possibility of a stall-spin with a bad outcome. It can be either wing that stalls, but usually the upper wing from exceeding viable angle-of-attack.

Wanna see? Go up to altitude, slow to your pattern speed, and line up with a road at 90 degrees to your direction of flight (like you were about to turn base to final). Go a little past the road and, as you turn base to final, push on the LEFT rudder to line the airplane up. BE READY FOR THE ENTRANCE TO A STALL/SPIN. Which is why you do this at altitude, enough to recover from what just happened. That sudden break will give you an idea of what happens when you do that base to final close to the ground. That can happen in ANY airplane. My feet reflexively come OFF the rudder pedals when I am slowed up, making turns in the pattern, especially base to final.

Of course neither works if you have to follow a Cub or whatever.

Of course, you would have anticipated the slow Cub and made adjustments in your pattern to let him get ahead of you enough you have plenty of room to adjust.

 

[sahrens]

Practice

I remember when I was first learning to fly my RV-7. Someone told me if you bought a guitar and played it once a month, how long would it take to become an accomplished guitar player? Why would flying an airplane be any different?

So five years later I still practice landings all the time, in different conditions, in crosswinds and pick my spot and do my best to touch down there. I work at slipping the aircraft so I know what I can expect from it and me.

No offense to any one, but just flying point A to point B does not challenge your flying skills much.

Scott

 

[jrs14855]

How Long

Six hours over 1 1/2 years in a J3 Cub. no radio no instruments, many tower fields one simply entered the pattern and looked for a light.
To stall/spin the airplane turning base to final requires stall angle of attack. Modest angle of attack no stall.
The Pitts S1S will fly for close to a mile in a 90 degree bank, 20 ft off the ground. Lots of rudder-no stall.
Hoover: money in the bank, making deposits and withdrawls.

 

[rocketman1988]

Not necessarily true

Six hours over 1 1/2 years in a J3 Cub. no radio no instruments, many tower fields one simply entered the pattern and looked for a light.
To stall/spin the airplane turning base to final requires stall angle of attack. Modest angle of attack no stall.
The Pitts S1S will fly for close to a mile in a 90 degree bank, 20 ft off the ground. Lots of rudder-no stall.
Hoover: money in the bank, making deposits and withdrawls.

A stall requires exceeding a critical angle of attack relative to the wing; it is possible to achieve that with what looks to be a modest angle of attack. You can stall a wing at any airspeed or attitude.

If you are in a 90 bank, in simplistic terms, the wings are providing no lift in the vertical direction. In order for that attitude to be stabilized, the sum of the lift forces, which in this case are horizontal, must be zero. Assuming a symmetrical airfoil (or semi symmetric) the relative angle of attack on the wings would be very small. The rudder, fuselage, and thrust are providing the vertical force to keep the aircraft in flight; you could use all of the available rudder and never stall the wings. Not really a good example.

 

[jbDC9]

My feet reflexively come OFF the rudder pedals when I am slowed up, making turns in the pattern, especially base to final.

That’s a weird way to do it. I keep my feet on the pedals at all times, but just have the subconscious plan of not slewing the nose around with the rudder while at the same time keeping up an appropriate amount of smash…

 

[rocketman1988]

Agree

That’s a weird way to do it. I keep my feet on the pedals at all times, but just have the subconscious plan of not slewing the nose around with the rudder while at the same time keeping up an appropriate amount of smash…

Agree with what you said about taking feet off the pedals. I think this would fall under learning to fly the airplane precisely, all the time.

 

[Roadjunkie1]

What are my feet doing.....?

That’s a weird way to do it. I keep my feet on the pedals at all times, but just have the subconscious plan of not slewing the nose around with the rudder while at the same time keeping up an appropriate amount of smash…

Agree with what you said about taking feet off the pedals. I think this would fall under learning to fly the airplane precisely, all the time.

OK: Clarification: it just SEEMS like I take my feet off the pedals. They don't actually ever leave the pedals. It might be more accurate to say I unload the pedals momentarily to make sure I am not adding input that isn't needed or shouldn't be there. I don't actually take my feet OFF the pedals.....

 

[gmcjetpilot]

I currently fly out of a towered airport with instrument approaches.

I have been using the VASI on landings out of habit, but it seems to set me up for a touch down a ways down the runway.

So do y’all land on the numbers, or 1000’ down on the offical “ touchdown” point?

Two things: Touch Down & Speed:

VASI, Aim Point and Touchdown.
Small planes can and/or should land well before 1000 foot touchdown on long instrument runways (unless wake turbulence is isdue then land way long up wind side of runway). The VASI (say 4 bar) is for large Jets. You can fly 2 x Red OVER 2 x White. However transition to 3vRed Over White or 3 Red over Pink IR 4 RED over the fence.

Nothing wrong with landing 1000' down the runway on a 6000' runway, especially if you need to turn off a taxiway at far end.. However you need to also know how to land well before that if needed or desired.

I use VASI or PAPI but SWITCH TO Visual Aim Point, FIXED SPOT ON WIND-SCREEN THAT DOES NOT MOVE UP OR DOWN. THAT SPOT IS END OF RUNWAY OR JUST PAST END OF RUNWAY (no obstacle, day VFR). Night I fly VASI always.

AIM POINT IS NOT TOUCH DOWN POINT. Using end of runway as AIM, depending on speed and when you you go idle, roundout, flare may touch down 100 to 500 feet past end of runway. You do want to go to idle in ground effect not to float. IF YOU WANT TO FLY VASI DO IT. LAND LONG if runway is long. With that said learn to spot land "on the numbers".

SPEED and OTHER TRAFFIC and TOWER
Other traffic faster behind you? Tower wants XYZ? Fly your plane safely. If you agree to do it, then do it. (keep speed up, turn off first taxiway...). If you can't don't agree to do it. Say unable...

. Keep speed up as long as you can but if you want to be at 65kts full flap at 500 above touch down zone, do it. If you are slowing to 65kts at 5 or 10 miles out, not a good thing for traffic flow with a lot of other traffic, will may cause issues and delays.

You can fly a fast approach and land long. You can fly a min approach speed, Vso × 1.3 approach and land short, shorter roll out... However hard to fly fast approach and land short. ATC and Tower Personnel are NOT pilots l(some are). So don't let them fly your plane. Most know and respect limits of planes even if not a pilot, but don't assume they do.

You should be able to keep speed 130kts, up 4Nm out straight in, pattern altitude, then start to slow, configure fill flaps, then descend to runway, landing, youching down before 1000' from end of Rwy. Roll out another 500 to 1000 feet. If entering mid field down wind plan on being at Vfe abeam the numbers. I routinely turned off taxiway 800" feet from end of runway with some headwind, w/o leaning on brakes. If no wind, landing little long, few kts too fast 2000' turn off was easy. If you are not able to do that constantly, consider some training.

If you are having trouble slowing to flap extension speed, lower power earlier and more drastically AND, eith a short climb (100 feet gain) AND/OR slip you can bleed speed faster. Once at Vfe put flaps in as needed. If you need to come down all flags all at once, and lower nose.

VFR Cessna behind you will need to slow down. That is their problem. We all try to work together. Tower would tell you or following traffic to go around. Don't worry about it. Don't be a slow poke but don't fly faster than you are comfortable with. However you should practice alternate procedures, slips, low or idle power approach, steeper and shallower approaches, etc..

I assume your airport is busy, may be airline traffic or training, VFR or IFR students. You could try and fly a faster final and then slow later but don't do it unless you are comfortable. There are slips, going to idle earlier, non standard techniques. If you cross the fence faster it will take longer to touch down... There is nothing you can do is float until speed bleeds off.

The IFR final is typically 5 mile segment or more. If it's VFR conditions then first come first served. If it's low VFR conditions or IMC WX, IFR traffic will be priority. IFR traffic is going 90kts on final or faster. Most small panes fly 90kt Inst Approaches. Jets 120kts or more on IFR final segment. It is common for Jets to be told by approach keep your speed up to the FAF... the point you start descent to runway.

Don't let Tower rush you or do what you are not comfortable with. However train at altitude away from airport with speed control, descent at different speeds, power and configuration (no part full flaps).. Practice full slips. S-turns. These may not be something you use on routine basis, but have it in you bag of tools. You may want to get some dual with a CFI with RV experience. I am a CFI-I-ME ATP. I do RV transition training. PM me if interested.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

I currently fly out of a towered airport with instrument approaches.

I have been using the VASI on landings out of habit, but it seems to set me up for a touch down a ways down the runway.

So do y’all land on the numbers, or 1000’ down on the offical “ touchdown” point?

Two things: Touch Down & Speed:

VASI, Aim Point and Touchdown.
Small planes can and/or should land well before 1000 foot touchdown on long instrument runways (unless wake turbulence is isdue then land way long up wind side of runway). The VASI (say 4 bar) is for large Jets. You can fly 2 x Red OVER 2 x White. However transition to 3vRed Over White or 3 Red over Pink IR 4 RED over the fence.

Nothing wrong with landing 1000' down the runway on a 6000' runway, especially if you need to turn off a taxiway at far end.. However you need to also know how to land well before that if needed or desired.

I use VASI or PAPI but SWITCH TO Visual Aim Point, FIXED SPOT ON WIND-SCREEN THAT DOES NOT MOVE UP OR DOWN. THAT SPOT IS END OF RUNWAY OR JUST PAST END OF RUNWAY (no obstacle, day VFR). Night I fly VASI always.

AIM POINT IS NOT TOUCH DOWN POINT. Using end of runway as AIM, depending on speed and when you you go idle, roundout, flare may touch down 100 to 500 feet past end of runway. You do want to go to idle in ground effect not to float. IF YOU WANT TO FLY VASI DO IT. LAND LONG if runway is long. With that said learn to spot land "on the numbers".

SPEED and OTHER TRAFFIC and TOWER
Other traffic faster behind you? Tower wants XYZ? Fly your plane safely. If you agree to do it, then do it. (keep speed up, turn off first taxiway...). If you can't don't agree to do it. Say unable...

. Keep speed up as long as you can but if you want to be at 65kts full flap at 500 above touch down zone, do it. If you are slowing to 65kts at 5 or 10 miles out, not a good thing for traffic flow with a lot of other traffic, will may cause issues and delays.

You can fly a fast approach and land long. You can fly a min approach speed, Vso × 1.3 approach and land short, shorter roll out... However hard to fly fast approach and land short. ATC and Tower Personnel are NOT pilots l(some are). So don't let them fly your plane. Most know and respect limits of planes even if not a pilot, but don't assume they do.

You should be able to keep speed 130kts, up 4Nm out straight in, pattern altitude, then start to slow, configure fill flaps, then descend to runway, landing, youching down before 1000' from end of Rwy. Roll out another 500 to 1000 feet. If entering mid field down wind plan on being at Vfe abeam the numbers. I routinely turned off taxiway 800" feet from end of runway with some headwind, w/o leaning on brakes. If no wind, landing little long, few kts too fast 2000' turn off was easy. If you are not able to do that constantly, consider some training.

If you are having trouble slowing to flap extension speed, lower power earlier and more drastically AND, eith a short climb (100 feet gain) AND/OR slip you can bleed speed faster. Once at Vfe put flaps in as needed. If you need to come down all flags all at once, and lower nose.

VFR Cessna behind you will need to slow down. That is their problem. We all try to work together. Tower would tell you or following traffic to go around. Don't worry about it. Don't be a slow poke but don't fly faster than you are comfortable with. However you should practice alternate procedures, slips, low or idle power approach, steeper and shallower approaches, etc..

I assume your airport is busy, may be airline traffic or training, VFR or IFR students. You could try and fly a faster final and then slow later but don't do it unless you are comfortable. There are slips, going to idle earlier, non standard techniques. If you cross the fence faster it will take longer to touch down... There is nothing you can do is float until speed bleeds off.

The IFR final is typically 5 mile segment or more. If it's VFR conditions then first come first served. If it's low VFR conditions or IMC WX, IFR traffic will be priority. IFR traffic is going 90kts on final or faster. Most small panes fly 90kt Inst Approaches. Jets 120kts or more on IFR final segment. It is common for Jets to be told by approach keep speed up to the FAF... the point you start descent to runway.

Consider faster final approach at half flaps to help tower when some one is gaining on you. A Cessna should be able to slow to near 65 to 75kts.


Don't let Tower rush you or do what you are not comfortable with. However train at altitude away from airport with speed control, descent at different speeds, power and configuration (no part full flaps).. Practice full slips. S-turns. These may not be something you use on routine basis, but have it in you bag of tools. You may want to get some dual with a CFI with RV experience. I am a CFI-I-ME ATP. I do RV transition training. PM me if interested.

 

[jrs14855]

Speeds

Most small planes is a very vague description.
Depending on flap limit speeds, I have flown 120 or higher for decades in many light twins and some singles. For all the popular turboprop twins 120 is standard for instrument approach. Four years at Chicago Midway and no controller ever had to ask me to go faster.

 

[M5fly]

Runway markings

Let's remember the purpose of those runway markings...

There are 3 types of runways: VFR, non-precision instrument, and precision instrument. All 3 have different marking requirements.

VFR runways only have the numbers and centerline, unless serving Cat C and D aircraft, then they also have threshold markings. Additionally, if a VFR runway is more than 4,200ft long and serving Cat C and D aircraft, it will have aiming point markings (captain's bars).

Non-precision instrument runways require numbers, centerline, and threshold markings, and if more than 4,200ft in length, aiming point markings.

Precision instrument runways require numbers, centerline, threshold markings, aiming point, touchdown zone markings (those other groups of bars starting at 500ft extending to 3000ft), and runway edge markings.

None of these markings exist to tell you where you have to land, they exist to provide you information about where you're at so you can make safe, informed decisions about your approach and landing.

Airport lighting is also tied to the type of approaches and aircraft the runway serves.

I think the reasons many new pilots are taught to aim at the captain's bars is because this is almost always the aiming point DPE's will use on check rides. Why? Because it's an easy visual to see if someone hit their marks. Continuing on this tangent, it appears to me that many instructors and flight schools are far more invested in teaching a wide pattern that includes a long stabilized approach rather than being able to make the runway in the event of engine failure. And I'd say there's some merit in that thought process considering you're more likely to make a mistake than experience engine failure. I think there's a happy medium in there somewhere.

 

[FL Flier]

During my CFI checkride, the DPE had me teach and demonstrate a short field landing. I did what I’d been taught in the monkey see/monkey do world. It was a 4000’ runway and I landed on the touchdown zone, touching down at the bottom of the piano keys and braking hard.

He had me do it again, and land on the bottom of the numbers, asking if I’m teaching short field landings or a short landing roll a quarter mile up a long runway. Some day a former student of mine will need to land on a true short runway, and is he going to have the training to do it properly?

 

[gmcjetpilot]

None of these markings exist to tell you where you have to land, they exist to provide you information about where you're at so you can make safe, informed decisions about your approach and landing.

Airport lighting is also tied to the type of approaches and aircraft the runway serves

True but you contradict yourself. One you say runway markings don't tell you where to land. Then you say markings are to make an informed decision when landing? Hummm. I know we what you are saying.

Let's make it simple. They are called fixed distance markers. More important the first 1000' and 500' fixed fistance markers is called the TOUCH DOWN ZONE. It's a target so yes it informs you where to make 1st contact. The markings on Percision Approach Runways gives you all kinds of information like runway length.

Do you have to use markings? No, some runways have no markings. In a Boeing 737 yes you must use TDZ. Look at the rubber on runways served by airlines. Short runways for airlines (large jets) are 5000' or 6000'. You HAVE to stick the T/D zone, to stop, especially when runway is contaminated (wet, snow).

In large jets you also do NOT want to land "on the numbers". The back end of aircrsf is hanging down a few stories below the nose. You need to clear lights, antennas at end of runway.

Large / long runways with Percision IFR approaches are more than an RV needs by a factor of 10 to 20 times or more. RV's can take off and land in 500' to 800' t/o or Ldg ( per Vans Aircraft).

I typically turn off 1st taxiway 800 feet from approach end of runway, little to light braking. If hot, heavy, gusty winds, I'll roll out 1,500.

If all you do is fly off hard surface 5000' plus runways you can be as imprecise you want. Land half way down runway.

You want to land on short runway with obstacles you need to practice. Get CFI who knows RV's. If you live near PDX get time with Mike Seager. Not cheap but worth it.

I'm a CFI in Mid South who teaches in RV's. I can give you tips. PM me.

Merry Christmas All

 

[M5fly]

True but you contradict yourself. One you say runway markings don't tell you where to land. Then you say markings are to make an informed decision when landing? Hummm. I know we what you are saying.

Notice I said they don't tell you where you HAVE to land. They tell you where you SHOULD land. Here's a good question for the group: Do you know why displaced thresholds exist?

Let's make it simple. They are called fixed distance markers. More important the first 1000' and 500' fixed fistance markers is called the TOUCH DOWN ZONE. It's a target so yes it informs you where to make 1st contact. The markings on Percision Approach Runways gives you all kinds of information like runway length.

The TDZ markings exist to show you exactly how far down the runway you've made it on a precision approach in low vis. What you do with that info is up to you. BTW, TDZ markings do not include the fixed distance markings, they are completely separate. Fixed distance markings is a DoD term, the FAA term for them is aiming point markings. What markings give you info about runway length? Other than the presence of certain markings lets you know it's more than 4200ft long?

Large runways with Percision IFR approaches are more than an RV needs by a factor of 6 to 10 times or more. RV's can take off and land in less than 1000' t/o or Ldg roll ( sea level, no headwinds, no obstacles, light wt.). I typically turn off 1st taxiway 800 feet from approach end of runway, little to light braking. If hot, heavy, no wind or gustywinds, I'll roll out 1,500.

If all you do is fly off hard surface 5000' plus runways you can be as imprecise you want. Land half way down runway.

You want to land on short runway with obstacles you need to practice. Get CFI who knows RV's. If you live near PDX get time with Mike Seager. Not cheap but worth it.

I'm a CFI in Mid South who teaches in RV's. I can give you tips. PM me.

I don't think I mentioned anything about myself or my own flying in my post, so not sure what you're getting at here.

As someone with an extensive airport ops/management background (that likely few, if any, on this forum have), my goal was simply to explain why all these things exist from the other side of the coin. That type of stuff isn't normally taught to pilots. Maybe it is at the ATP level, but I'm not there, yet.

 

[PilotjohnS]

Bible

Two things: Touch Down & Speed:

VASI, Aim Point and Touchdown.
Small planes.....al segment. It is common for Jets to be told by approach keep your speed up to the FAF... the point you start descent to runway.

Don't let Tower rush you or do what you are not comfortable with. However train at altitude away from airport with speed control, descent at different speeds, power and configuration (no part full flaps).. Practice full slips. S-turns. These may not be something you use on routine basis, but have it in you bag of tools. You may want to get some dual with a CFI with RV experience. I am a CFI-I-ME ATP. I do RV transition training. PM me if interested.

Very good advice.
I was following my transition training and the instructor said 100kts 10 miles out. But this may have been fine for first flight, I realize now I can transition to a more tower friendly approach (pun intended).

Well I am getting the plane painted, so nobody will ever know it was me flying that 10 mile final at 65kts.......

thanks for commenting.
Time to give Doug a present..