"No good deed goes unpunished"
Van's Air Force
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We Can Do Better: A Message from Van's
- Thread starter Van's Aircraft
- Start date
On a positive note, my kit orders have gone very smoothly. Both kits have been delivered within one week of their estimated ship date. The new ACH payment system saved me a trip to the bank and wire fee on the second one. It seems like they've more or less gotten a handle on the kit side, but the store side is what still needs attention. I'm also a bit skeptical of how a software system improves the ~10 days it takes to pick and pack an order, which seems like more of a manpower issue. I am however, sympathetic to the challenges that must be involved with making that system work while trying to control costs and dig out of the hole they found themselves in. I just wish I could order stuff from them rather than Spruce being my go-to. I ruined a couple simple parts by mis-drilling holes the other night. I opted to order some 2024-t3 from Spruce and make them from scratch rather than wait the 2-3 weeks it would take to get pre cut and bent replacements from Van's.
I like the moderation, and I've been moderated as much as anyone.
I hear ya' brother, 32 years for me. And before that I ran a new car dealership with a 98 CSI score.
The dog got sick. They had to call in the surgeons. Now he is up and wagging, and he wants to please. Patience.
I hear ya' brother, 32 years for me. And before that I ran a new car dealership with a 98 CSI score.
The dog got sick. They had to call in the surgeons. Now he is up and wagging, and he wants to please. Patience.
that is a positive sign that they are trying. Hats off to them!
I did the survey. Not a huge fan of "customer surveys" in general. But this one seems worthwhile.
Other than having my bought and paid for Prop order get swept up in the chapter 11 proceedings, my overall experience with Van's has been pretty positive. And even the prop order got sorted out before I really needed it. So, all is well for me.
Other than having my bought and paid for Prop order get swept up in the chapter 11 proceedings, my overall experience with Van's has been pretty positive. And even the prop order got sorted out before I really needed it. So, all is well for me.
I also did the survey.
I posted some critical comments for a product of a VAF advertiser and they were allowed to stay. I even "self-moderated" a couple of them on the second look. Kudos to VAF for giving leeway when we stick to the facts based on own experience...
My only interaction attempt with Van's was through one email asking to change the ownership info for my plane so I can see the build plans online. That's a pretty small sample to make a judgement
You might be suprised. I can count single digits just in my circle.
I observed the same as Paul. Most had bad experiences on VAF and have moved on. I frequent the Facebook wing more these days.
As far as the consensus regarding the OP post here...
It's a work in progress and starts at the top. I think the Oracle upgrade will be a positive improvement, but other things are broken and need attention. Phone calls, voice mail and email need to be addressed. I spent a career in Tehnology. We were required to document and reply to every call, VM and e-mail by COB. Even if it was just a simple "received and will respond by date".
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Obviously you can't. We deal with some extremely stressed out Marketing departments in major corporations who are in turn dealing with some extremely stressed out Advertising firms who are in turn dealing with some extremely stressed out Distributors. This is usually in the context of a major meeting or conference and "nothing can go wrong". If something goes wrong, then everyone yells at the level below them and the message is "don't bother me with details, fix it!"...so the Marketing department yells at the Advertising firm who yells at the Distributor who yells at the Supplier (me). Illogical behavior of course, but if anything goes wrong, it's your fault. See what I mean?
When you get into things like expensive photo shoots with paid talent and the "gotta have it for the commercial item" you just thought about yesterday doesn't make it on time, people get stressed. SWMBO is in that line of work and it always amazes me how a day or two before the shoot, they are jumping through hoops to find things or have them made, when (IMO) the plan should have been set and the materials gathered weeks in advance.
SquawkVFR
Active Member
Agree with your point in general. Yeah, it looks bad on the community when we beat up the mothership. On the other hand, a lot of us don't provide this feedback to Van's because they aren't asking for it, and it's often so hard to get through on the phone. Plus we just don't want to be the one complaining. I once was told that for every person who actually speaks up about something, there are anywhere from 10 to 1,000 (or more) who feel the same way but never say anything.
If Van's wants to stay in business, I think they're gonna have to accept some raw feedback and address issues. How many people out there do you suppose just threw up their hands and gave up on ordering from Van's because of these issues and never bothered to say anything?
The good news is I just got a survey today from Van's, so maybe they're trying something different this time.
Jerry Fischer
Well Known Member
You will be rewarded in the next Life Doug. You have nothing to be ashamed of or worry about. IMHO
Jerry Fischer
Well Known Member
Yep, I had the pleasure of working as a Tech Rep and Field Service Manager for Xerox for 17 years. Smiling and listening are your best assets when your "customer" vents. Then Fix the problem and go on to the next one.
We're all 1 percenters in one way or another.
On the brighter side of things...for me anyway...it seems like not all Vans departments have the same customer service issues. I have placed a few parts orders as has a fellow 8 owner since the C11 situation. All orders (I think 8 between us) were received in a very timely fashion with some clearing the border and getting to us in Canada in under two weeks. Pretty good service for us. Based on this rather small sampling it seems like the larger kit/engine/prop orders are where the problems are.
Of the dozen RV's on the field along with a few more I know of at another field there are only 2 of us that actively monitor VAF. Quite surprising considering the valuable information available at such a low cost. To DR I say thanks for a great well monitored forum!
To Vans I say thanks for a great product, improved communication and keep on moving forward!
Of the dozen RV's on the field along with a few more I know of at another field there are only 2 of us that actively monitor VAF. Quite surprising considering the valuable information available at such a low cost. To DR I say thanks for a great well monitored forum!
To Vans I say thanks for a great product, improved communication and keep on moving forward!
I know one. Very popular YouTuber.
I have parts ordered over half a year ago and paid for them but they have not shipped with no comms as to why. The emails I send don't get responded to. To the guys saying not to make negative posts on here, this isn't the intent but the reality is that the channels that I am meant to follow to communicate with them don't get answered so what am I meant to do???? Would be helpful if someone at Vans reads this message and contacts me.
Hate to say it but you have to call over and over again until you get someone on the phone. I've sent many an email that just disappeared in to the black hole. This is what I mean when I point out the abysmal management performance in their customer service area...
Just a tip - If you really want Van’s to contact you, I bet it would help them if you gave your name, location, builder number…anything other than an “Internet Handle” to help them know who and how to contact you. Anonymous posts don’t carry much weight…. And won’t help Van’s help you.
I also found out if I called Vans early in the morning, the chance of someone from tech support or ordering answering my phone call was high, before things got busy at the factory. This is the same with most small businesses, not just at Vans . If you send emails, then you are going to be waiting in line behind all other emails. Every time I called , help was very fast.
Raw feedback is usually a requirement to recover and maintain continual improvement over time. Uncomfortable? Yes. Needed? Yes.
As a serial tech-related entrepreneur with a stint at a fortune 50 company focused on transitioning corporate culture, it seems that Van's messaging is more focused on tech or software solutions when their focus (and messaging to their clients) should be addressing improvement of their corporate culture. ( basic things like "employees will answer phones and be responsive and we'll figure out how enable and motivate them to be successful at it. And we'll measure it to track and ensure improvement.")
Software, hardware, workflow, etc are tools to help, not the solution.
Culture for success is attitude, focus, going above and beyond, creating delight and creating a cult following based on customer satisfaction.
In the past, Vans had some cultish characteristics because they were basically the only gig in town and catered to more technically proficient people.
I don't yet see the focus on culture improvement if basic things like phones aren't being answered (kindergarten), or a customer needing to call in the morning to have a better chance of a response. We need to hear a focus that addresses this short term.
They need to create a culture based on excellence, responsiveness and satisfaction. Based on their past couple of years, it needs to be put on rocket boosters. It needs to become a highly customer-centric culture, not internally focused "we're the best so you get what you get when we can".
I was surprised to get the survey. I think it's the first I've seen in 10 years. A step in the right direction if they interpret the results objectively instead of defensively. I've seen surveys go down the toilet because management didn't want to accept/believe the harsh reality responses.
Starter items like phones, responses, solving billing issues don't need surveys, they need management awareness and measuring for success.
Sometimes a very technical organization has difficulty dealing with this aspect of business. Hope Vans can repair the brand damage and transition to a successful culture.
As a serial tech-related entrepreneur with a stint at a fortune 50 company focused on transitioning corporate culture, it seems that Van's messaging is more focused on tech or software solutions when their focus (and messaging to their clients) should be addressing improvement of their corporate culture. ( basic things like "employees will answer phones and be responsive and we'll figure out how enable and motivate them to be successful at it. And we'll measure it to track and ensure improvement.")
Software, hardware, workflow, etc are tools to help, not the solution.
Culture for success is attitude, focus, going above and beyond, creating delight and creating a cult following based on customer satisfaction.
In the past, Vans had some cultish characteristics because they were basically the only gig in town and catered to more technically proficient people.
I don't yet see the focus on culture improvement if basic things like phones aren't being answered (kindergarten), or a customer needing to call in the morning to have a better chance of a response. We need to hear a focus that addresses this short term.
They need to create a culture based on excellence, responsiveness and satisfaction. Based on their past couple of years, it needs to be put on rocket boosters. It needs to become a highly customer-centric culture, not internally focused "we're the best so you get what you get when we can".
I was surprised to get the survey. I think it's the first I've seen in 10 years. A step in the right direction if they interpret the results objectively instead of defensively. I've seen surveys go down the toilet because management didn't want to accept/believe the harsh reality responses.
Starter items like phones, responses, solving billing issues don't need surveys, they need management awareness and measuring for success.
Sometimes a very technical organization has difficulty dealing with this aspect of business. Hope Vans can repair the brand damage and transition to a successful culture.
As one who posted a reply about my frustration with Van's behavior, I have spent far too much time thinking about this comment, as intentional or not, it's certainly directed at me. I think this question is not fair. We're the customers, who continue to do business with a company that has gone through a bankruptcy, and who a year ago promised to do a better job communicating with us. The proper question which Van's should be asking is why should customers come back to them? Is promising a multi-month or even years software implementation project sufficient? Are there things they can do now that would improve matters? I think there are, at least for myself and others in my situation. I mentioned some of those very simple things in my previous posts.
The odd thing here is that I've been more than patient, I think, waiting for something I was told was ready 5 months ago but which is still not ready to ship. This message and the survey from Van's just hasn't struck me right, or given me confidence.
Repeated negative postings; ughh. Maybe just 1 rant per person and not an ongoing monologue. the build takes a long time either way. Hiccups expected. Supply chain and specialty parts (outsourced work) comes at odd times and hard to fully control. My Lycoming engine was 2 years overdue. Please give Vans a break. Excellent product and design, complex inventory.
2x builder, 4x owner. 64 years old and counting. Cal
2x builder, 4x owner. 64 years old and counting. Cal
I'm sorry my two posts are disagreeing with you, so please feel free to ignore me. I agree with the quality and complexity. However, I don't think the school program I mentor would be satisfied with this answer when they wonder when they'll get their next kit or parts they need to replace. What would you say to someone wondering if it was wise to start a project or purchase a kit right now? I'm not being argumentative even if it sounds it. I genuinely want to know, as I will inevitably be asked that question going into the next school year. How can I be encouraging when they ask about my experience?
Dare I say it? Sometimes engineers aren't good at the soft product. That has certainly been my experience with Vans the last few years. Do I understand the *big* circumstances that led them to this point? Of course I do. But I sat in the "What's New at Vans" forum two years ago at OSH and was somewhat bewildered by all the defensive engineering technobabble about how LCP were fine, really just fine. The other shoe dropped less than six months later when we "the customer" remained unconvinced about just how fine things were (and it turned out they were robbing Peter to pay Paul just to keep the lights on, but I digress).
Then the next OSH, the forum was "everything's fine, Van is back, things are great!" followed by "oh, by the way, we're working on the whole 10-seat thing and we'll be prioritizing shipping complete kits." I'm sorry, what? No, you prioritize people who ordered them literally YEARS ago. Then crickets about the holdup on seats, and I finally received them well over a year after the rest of the finishing kit arrived, and an embarrassingly long time after I had ordered them. Were they critical for me? No, but they were bought and paid for, and Vans didn't bother to reach out. And I know other people were awaiting the seats and very near completion on their planes and were left in the same (dark) situation.
This sort of stuff isn't new; when we tried to get the bill of sale for the 7 so we could provide it to the DAR we were told that the person who handles that was out on maternity leave. I know it is a relatively small company, but how does management let an employee go out on leave and not have someone else to delegate their pretty important responsibilities to? So, when the mothership puts out a missive saying they are getting new software to better help them track and streamline orders, that's fantastic, but still focused on the tech, not the people element. We're pretty forgiving customers, just tell us the score and don't make us beg for information.
Then the next OSH, the forum was "everything's fine, Van is back, things are great!" followed by "oh, by the way, we're working on the whole 10-seat thing and we'll be prioritizing shipping complete kits." I'm sorry, what? No, you prioritize people who ordered them literally YEARS ago. Then crickets about the holdup on seats, and I finally received them well over a year after the rest of the finishing kit arrived, and an embarrassingly long time after I had ordered them. Were they critical for me? No, but they were bought and paid for, and Vans didn't bother to reach out. And I know other people were awaiting the seats and very near completion on their planes and were left in the same (dark) situation.
This sort of stuff isn't new; when we tried to get the bill of sale for the 7 so we could provide it to the DAR we were told that the person who handles that was out on maternity leave. I know it is a relatively small company, but how does management let an employee go out on leave and not have someone else to delegate their pretty important responsibilities to? So, when the mothership puts out a missive saying they are getting new software to better help them track and streamline orders, that's fantastic, but still focused on the tech, not the people element. We're pretty forgiving customers, just tell us the score and don't make us beg for information.
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"Anyone see any reason why they should continue to come back to VAF to continue to get bashed?"
Thast's an ASTOUNDING YES". You keep coming and and you keep getting bashed until you start to hear some "Thank You's".
Then you keep coming and get get bashed less and ask "what else can we do to improve."
Then you keep coming and keep asking. FOREVER.
The "Thank You's" come for results, not promises. This is a culture problem which is a management problem. No help because of maternity leave, no answering of phones, no reply on seats for years, slow replies. It's all a management problem of not being involved in the details and setting expectations and goals and then measuring them to create a continuous loop of feedback.
if somebody is out on maternity leave, then if no other option, the President should be covering for her. CUSTOMER FOCUSED. See how that works?
Thast's an ASTOUNDING YES". You keep coming and and you keep getting bashed until you start to hear some "Thank You's".
Then you keep coming and get get bashed less and ask "what else can we do to improve."
Then you keep coming and keep asking. FOREVER.
The "Thank You's" come for results, not promises. This is a culture problem which is a management problem. No help because of maternity leave, no answering of phones, no reply on seats for years, slow replies. It's all a management problem of not being involved in the details and setting expectations and goals and then measuring them to create a continuous loop of feedback.
if somebody is out on maternity leave, then if no other option, the President should be covering for her. CUSTOMER FOCUSED. See how that works?
Thanks for the helpful tip but to be fair Vans did reach out by the DM functionality after I posted on the forum.
Wow! Here I was upset over a few nutplates taking around 3 weeks to get shipped was bad. Having sat on the phone hearing the recording "someone will be with you shortly" for 20-30 minutes gets old. I hope they really fix the problem. As someone else pointed out, I think there may be a personnel problem or shortage. To end on a positive note, the Tech Support team could not be better. They have always answered the phones in a timely manner and solved my problems on the spot. Hats off to them.
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I think we should all remember that we're lucky the company still exists at all. Lets help them improve, while keeping it constructive.
I agree with the constructive, but they need to listen and action. The most important thing I think is letting us know what is going on. It's great to see a little on the 15, hiring a new manager, a new 14 flap offering, and that's all exciting, but they have fundamental order, timing, and customer response issues that need to be addressed. Tell us where they are in that process, what system is giving them trouble, etc. Do more mass communication on that, so folks know what to expect. And I have told them that, via email and on a hour plus long one to one call with the customer support manager six months ago, and we aren't seeing a change.
This is why I'm buying a Van's aircraft. Thanks for addressing the issue. Best of luck!
Yes, same here.
And to provide credit where credit due, it was someone well known in another Vans department who just decided to reach across the departmental lines to try and help out, which is much appreciated and a great customer service attitude.
Ordered the SV-6 vents for my 14 and got a shipping notification within a day. I really think what gums it up for Vans is when the order contains items that have to be kitted first, like a bag of hardware...
I have yet to encounter someone at Vans who wasn't helpful and friendly...once you got them on the phone
On a slightly positive note, someone from customer service did contact me and has been trying to get me more information, and at the very least my long delayed kit has now been added to my kit status page. I still have no information about when it might ship, but at least it doesn't look like it's lost in the system.
kswanson
Active Member
In fair honesty, I did not read almost anything past the first few lines of this post, but I am glad I found this because I wanted to say how I felt when I received the email.
I know it's a very small order, but I am helping a friend reseal a tank on his RV10, so two days ago I placed an order for a few fuel tank repair kits, my eyes widened when next morning I had an email that my order was received and being processed with a shipping label already. That is seriously huge improvement!
I was honestly shocked. I, like others had come to grips with the fact that I would not receive this order for another few weeks with how orders had gone in the past. I know it may seem small but I certainly noticed it. So, Thank you Vans, keep up the hard work. You get a thumbs up from me.
I know it's a very small order, but I am helping a friend reseal a tank on his RV10, so two days ago I placed an order for a few fuel tank repair kits, my eyes widened when next morning I had an email that my order was received and being processed with a shipping label already. That is seriously huge improvement!
I was honestly shocked. I, like others had come to grips with the fact that I would not receive this order for another few weeks with how orders had gone in the past. I know it may seem small but I certainly noticed it. So, Thank you Vans, keep up the hard work. You get a thumbs up from me.
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Likewise, I placed an order on Sunday for a pair of replacement RV-12 flaperon torque tubes (long story), got an email the next morning saying the order had been processed, and later the same day the package was in the possession of USPS. Let’s hope it continues.
