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Thoughts on Hartzell purchase of E-Mag
- Thread starter LeoKenner
- Start date
That's why companies like Hartzell buy other competitors, to make more profit. Yep, they are going up, you can bet on it. If you're going to buy Pmags, get em now
The good news is that the inevitable price hikes should create pricing room for new entrants to the market, which will be good for us until those guys eventually sell to PE or the big companies.
What a shame:
I have enjoyed working with Brad over the years. It’s so hard to find a reliable small business anymore.
Dean Pichon
Well Known Member
And that sums it up!
Overhaul/checkout costs will be higher or possibly no option at all other than to buy another Pmag. After flying mine for 680hrs I found I’ve had to send them in a few times for various reasons. Mainly the endshaft play on the gear. Great company and great owner but now I’m not as sure about the new owner.
This will be interesting. Seems many pmag users are like you, have to send the unit in regularly due to bearing wear. I will withhold my opinion. Hartzell has shown they are not big on repairs. Want you to buy new when the stuff breaks early. At least it seems that way from what i read here about planepower issues.
From my experience with them, they don't mind repairs, but they will not support or repair anything that was not purchased from them. I have dealt with them a few times on a couple of their acquired products, and one of the first questions asked was if it was purchased prior to their takeover.
Flyin'Bryan
Well Known Member
I guess my only thoughts for now are:
1. Will there be an E Mag booth or at least an E Mag "section" within a larger Hartzell booth at Airventure this year?
2. If yes, I wonder who will be manning it, and if the previous owner is staying on in some capacity or not?
I visited E-Mag several times last year with a laundry list of questions, and I had planned to do so again this year as I continue to explore all of my engine options. I am very interested in dual P Mags. I agree with others about the great experiences with the previous owner.
1. Will there be an E Mag booth or at least an E Mag "section" within a larger Hartzell booth at Airventure this year?
2. If yes, I wonder who will be manning it, and if the previous owner is staying on in some capacity or not?
I visited E-Mag several times last year with a laundry list of questions, and I had planned to do so again this year as I continue to explore all of my engine options. I am very interested in dual P Mags. I agree with others about the great experiences with the previous owner.
I spoke to Brad two weeks ago and he confirmed he was planning to be at Airventure this year.
I think the overhead comes in the form of expecting the new acquisition to pay for its own cost of acquisition.
Glastar F-xxxx
I'm New Here
Until 2 weeks ago I got oustanding support from Brad for a P-mag problem.
When this was solved I sent a request to deliver different parts (sparkplug adapters, lead connectors, coil and circuit board.)
On my last 5 mails I get no answer at all (unfortunately) Maybe now I know why?
I'm curious what Hartzell's support will be like
I guess the only solution is to buy a complete set of P-mag from Spruce in time for spare parts or exchange ?
I can’t see anything good coming out of this for E-Mag users. Higher prices and bad service would be likely. Skytec, WW, now E-Mag?? Can’t they just keep the high prices and crappy service for the certified guys. We have such a good thing going, and they are doing their best to ruin it.
At least with SkyTec repairs were still possible since almost any auto shop recognizes and even carries the internal parts. I had mine fully overhauled (new pinion and solenoid) for about $80.
I don’t think the same is possible for pmags if Hartzell adopt a similar repair policy.
I don’t think the same is possible for pmags if Hartzell adopt a similar repair policy.
This is why I’m thinking about self help. If anyone has data on the bearings used or if anyone has taken one of these apart. It’s not rocket science!
sansoneservices
Well Known Member
Bearings usually can be measured and purchased online, local in big cities
This is exactly what happens. The company I work for was just acquired by PE, and we had to immediately take on about 65% of the purchase price in debt. I don't know how much it costs to service a half billion of debt, but it is not peanuts.
Exactly. My last engine was a high compression 360, and the Pmags were sent in for bearing issues about every 200 hours. After much discussion it was blamed on harmonic issues. The new engine has a counterweighted crank and lower compression. Much smoother. Hoping this won’t be an issue anymore.
I figured they were brass bushings since they wear out so easily. Just a guess. Was already thinking of trying to replace them myself if it happens again.
Even if it is rocket science, there’s a few of those around here
I installed one E-mag 40 hours ago so I'm curious about the 200 hour problem you mention. Did something prompt you to check the bearings after the first 200 hours or was this done after the first 500 hours (per the manual) and then more often out of an abundance of caution?Exactly. My last engine was a high compression 360, and the Pmags were sent in for bearing issues about every 200 hours. After much discussion it was blamed on harmonic issues. The new engine has a counterweighted crank and lower compression. Much smoother. Hoping this won’t be an issue anymore.
I figured they were brass bushings since they wear out so easily. Just a guess. Was already thinking of trying to replace them myself if it happens again.
Even if it is rocket science, there’s a few of those around here
It’s not every 500hrs it’s recommended at every annual to check the end play. I also have had erratic RPM indications as a failure mode that resulted in excessive end shaft play when I checked the emag outside of annual.
FORANE
Well Known Member
Maybe you have an older one. E-mag changed the recommendation:
Note 1: Ignitions with A) serial number 8245 and after, or B) having a mechanical overhaul after August 2022, have an enhanced bearing stack. Shaft inspection requirement for these units is 500 hrs. We recommend others continue with annual shaft inspection.
How did you pickup on erratic RPM indications? Was your engine actually experiencing erratic RPM or do you have a tach signal coming from the E-mag that was displaying erratic readings?
Lower cost options have been around for years. I cheerfully agree plug and play airplane building has been good for the industry in general, but most of the participants have forgotten how to be homebuilders.
After converting my CBR to EFI with Megasquirt, the Megajolt option is interesting to me.
Are the above timing units available anywhere, or were they one offs?
I’m somewhat suspect that the bearing time extension was based on actual data vs wishful thinking.
I feel like we need more information here... How about a parts list, and an indication what systme this is used with?
The same manual section you quoted still says it recommends inspections at annual so it applies to all models not just an older one. I’ve got both a new one and an old one that was retrofitted to the new design with a new circuit board.
I mention at annual because unless your someone like Vlad, I can only get to 300hrs tach before I reach time for an annual. So I inspect mine at annual even though I didn’t reach 500hrs.
Erratic Emag RPM. That’s the only tach signal I use. The lycoming tach gear is capped off on my engine by my choice. Without getting into extreme detail, Brad was tracking this issue and it was resolved by my unit getting an overhaul.
FORANE
Well Known Member
Hmmm, I read that differently.
I see what you mean now. But it’s not explicitly clear as it was written. I have had both of my units require bearing replacement prior to 500 hours. I have a stock M1B. Not sure why they don’t make it to 500hrs. I’m just one use case. So it may not be true for all.
Dan, Nicely done! Is this pick up / reluctor assembly part of the MegaJolt project? Or something entirely your own? The pick up assembly shown in your previous post looks very similar to the unit used on Chrysler's original electronic ignition design [1972]. Is more info on this setup available on a different thread? If not, what/where are the pick up and reluctor assembly sourced from?
Charlie Kuss [rhymes with puss]
I put megasquirt on my 6 and 10. for the 6, i made a similar pickup decive as this one. For the 10, i put magnets in the ring gear holder (in the 12 bolt holes for the add ons) and made a heavy duty assembly to hold the hall effect sensors, similar to the SDS piece. All in was about $400 per ignition.
I agree that the best answer to this price escalation insanity is to do more ourselves.
Long thread here, with some options:
Quite recently we had a few posts about a system using an MSD MC-4. I imagine the VW world has some choices applicable to a 360. And so on. It's not rocket science. I put dual GM ignitions on a 3 cyl Suzuki almost 30 years ago. Total cost back then was about $200...modules, coils, wires, everything.
Ford edis with megajolt
Hi guys, Not specific to RV's but looking on the net your group is clearly the most active about the subject !! I am rebuilding an aircraft with a Continental O-300 6 cylinder engine and will be using dual Ford edis system managed by 2 programable Megajolt boxes. I have not found much about...
www.vansairforce.net
Quite recently we had a few posts about a system using an MSD MC-4. I imagine the VW world has some choices applicable to a 360. And so on. It's not rocket science. I put dual GM ignitions on a 3 cyl Suzuki almost 30 years ago. Total cost back then was about $200...modules, coils, wires, everything.
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As for the E-Mag inspection. I do it every year to check for shaft end play per the manual. Side to side play is what I see. Have had numerous conversations with Brad and his service has been excellent. Have not posted my issues publicly before because he has offered excellent customer service.
As for coming up with other homegrown solutions like Dan, and better yet Kuss’ solutions. That is awesome. I know my limitations and am not willing to design and test a new design. I’d be totally willing to switch to another product in the future. I’m glad others are working on it. It’s frustrating when I have a product that works well (mostly), wiring is clean. Everything works, then they sell out and I have to deal with another company with questionable pricing and service.
Look at all the work the SDS guys put in to their installation. Imagine when Hartzell buys them and won’t service the product unless you buy directly from them. Not an easy change to get something else.
I’m totally aware if the Skytec starter rebuild options. I’ve put a new solenoid on one on a fuel stop during a XC. Still made my destination that day. Many years ago had a cracked starter case. Was at the mercy of Skytec then, would be over $1,000 now. No cheaper options that I’m aware of.
As for coming up with other homegrown solutions like Dan, and better yet Kuss’ solutions. That is awesome. I know my limitations and am not willing to design and test a new design. I’d be totally willing to switch to another product in the future. I’m glad others are working on it. It’s frustrating when I have a product that works well (mostly), wiring is clean. Everything works, then they sell out and I have to deal with another company with questionable pricing and service.
Look at all the work the SDS guys put in to their installation. Imagine when Hartzell buys them and won’t service the product unless you buy directly from them. Not an easy change to get something else.
I’m totally aware if the Skytec starter rebuild options. I’ve put a new solenoid on one on a fuel stop during a XC. Still made my destination that day. Many years ago had a cracked starter case. Was at the mercy of Skytec then, would be over $1,000 now. No cheaper options that I’m aware of.
Same time frame, I did something similar. BMW shop I worked at campaigned an IMSA GTU car. The Bosch ignition module would fail once or twice a year, usually at Sebring or Daytona. I, like you, I installed 2 GM ignition modules, with a toggle switch the driver could access. If 1 failed [never happened] he could throw the switch and continue the race.
I found the answer to my previous question on the thread linked below, post #20.
https://vansairforce.net/threads/ford-edis-with-megajolt.135476/
Charlie
Joel,
Easy, low cost starter solutions are available. They all use a starter from a Toyota Tacoma pick up truck. If interested, direct message me, for the DIY version [making the mounting bracket]. Or just web search one of the many vendors who support the "air boat guys" down here in Florida. They will sell you a ready to go unit for much less. I bought one 21 years ago from A & E Auto Electric on eBay for $160.00 delivered. So figure double that now. Best part is, any auto parts store or automotive electrical re-builder will be able to get you back in the air in hours, without "over night" shipping charges. Be sure to specify if you have a 122 or 149 tooth ring gear.
Charlie Kuss [rhymes with puss. German word for kiss]
Not the same application/duty. Making an assumption on the surefly; but, one is basically “freewheeling” and setting a timing mark. The other is experiencing an uneven counter torque due to the permanent magnets. At its simplest, it’s suffering some torsional vibrations. At its worse, it could be operating near a critical frequency. Either way, this isn’t something that shouldn’t have been/can’t be engineered around.
Pretty sure magnetos have big heavy magnets in them, bearings aren’t normally a problem.
They engineered a fix on 6 cyl engines with a rubber coupling.
You missed my point. I pointed out the differences between the SF and the eMag. Never mentioned a magneto’s bearing duty cycle though I strongly expect the eMag to be worse in amplitude. Cycles will definitely higher. I’ll say again, there’s no reason it couldn’t have been engjneered for the current duty the first time around. No reason a fix can’t be effected that would allow the device to meet it’s intended service life. The calcs and validation for various applications for L10 bearing life have been around for a bunch of decades. You just have to apply and de-rate accordingly. No real engineering required.
And yes, a rubber coupling would be a band aid approach to mitigate torsional vibes.
Just looked up the price of a MSD MC-4. The computer box alone is $1,328.95 **!! But, it does a lot of things.
The accy case 20A alternators have much stronger permanent magnets and those don’t seem to blow bearings every 200 hours. The design came from small tractors and those seem to run for decades as well. I fully agree this is poor engineering on the pmag.
I just found out about eMag being acquired. Not sure this link was posted. It gives some details...
generalaviationnews.com
I have two P-Mags. People already have posted a lot above. I am not going to worry or speculate. Nothing I can do about it.
I do feel disappointed. Had several enjoyable education conversations with Brad, learned a lot.
I also sent in my two units for inspection, upgrade a few years ago, for a very fair price, fast turnaround.
They replaced boards and whole housing on one, nominal charge.
We can hope they'll repair and service older units, vs no repair with option to buy a new one for $3000 (not $2000) and get $200 credit.
Since they will move from Texas to Alabama eventually, not sure what that means for the staff. Wish the gang well. Hartzell clearly wants to push their product into the certified market.
Plane Power, SkyTec, Emag, acquisitions is business in all industries. Gobble gobble gobble... Good news there is still competition.
Hartzell Engine Tech Acquires E-MAG
Hartzell Engine Tech plans to move E-MAG products toward certification for the general aviation market.
generalaviationnews.com
Hartzell Buys E-MAG, Adds Electronic Aircraft Ignitions | Aero-News Network
Engine Tech Unit Grows Portfolio Offerings Hartzell Engine Tech, a unit of Hartzell Aviation, announced the acquisition of E-MAG, maker of airc| Published: Wed, May 14, 2025 | Aero-News Network
www.aero-news.net
I have two P-Mags. People already have posted a lot above. I am not going to worry or speculate. Nothing I can do about it.
I do feel disappointed. Had several enjoyable education conversations with Brad, learned a lot.
I also sent in my two units for inspection, upgrade a few years ago, for a very fair price, fast turnaround.
They replaced boards and whole housing on one, nominal charge.
We can hope they'll repair and service older units, vs no repair with option to buy a new one for $3000 (not $2000) and get $200 credit.
Since they will move from Texas to Alabama eventually, not sure what that means for the staff. Wish the gang well. Hartzell clearly wants to push their product into the certified market.
Plane Power, SkyTec, Emag, acquisitions is business in all industries. Gobble gobble gobble... Good news there is still competition.
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Everything you said makes sense but your last sentence. Who is the competition now that EMAG is owned by Hartzel?I just found out about eMag being acquired. Not sure this link was posted. It gives some details...
Hartzell Engine Tech Acquires E-MAG
Hartzell Engine Tech plans to move E-MAG products toward certification for the general aviation market.Hartzell Buys E-MAG, Adds Electronic Aircraft Ignitions | Aero-News Network
Engine Tech Unit Grows Portfolio Offerings Hartzell Engine Tech, a unit of Hartzell Aviation, announced the acquisition of E-MAG, maker of airc| Published: Wed, May 14, 2025 | Aero-News Networkwww.aero-news.net
I have two P-Mags. People already have posted a lot above. I am not going to worry or speculate. Nothing I can do about it.
I do feel disappointed. Had several enjoyable education conversations with Brad, learned a lot.
I also sent in my two units for inspection, upgrade a few years ago, for a very fair price, fast turnaround.
They replaced boards and whole housing on one, nominal charge.
We can hope they'll repair and service older units, vs no repair with option to buy a new one for $3000 (not $2000) and get $200 credit.
Since they will move from Texas to Alabama eventually, not sure what that means for the staff. Wish the gang well. Hartzell clearly wants to push their product into the certified market.
Plane Power, SkyTec, Emag, acquisitions is business in all industries. Gobble gobble gobble... Good news there is still competition.
I just talked to Brad yesterday, only called him to say Bye, thanks for all the past help, great discussions on EI's, and congratulations on selling the Company.
He was positive but admitted he had some melancholy, since this was his whole life for +20 yrs. He enjoyed the experimental community, which he credited 100% for making this happen. He was reflective I will say. He told me a lot business, supply chain, in house manufacturing, liabilities... it was very interesting, as I have found talking to Brad to be. I learn a lot, and he entertains my dumb questions with thoughtful answers. I am afraid will be lost in the future.
Oshkosh 2025 was his last obligation to the company and gather he is retired at the moment, as he was talking to me by his pool. The same staff is still working in Texas, almost status quo for now, but that will change. Hartzell will try to certified units. What that means to experimental folks like you and I, he was not spacific, but did give me a feel for what Hartzell told him. Basically I gather they don't plan on making big changes, and recognizes this special product and it's relation to experimental airplane community. Take that for what it is worth.
I asked what he thinks about getting existing pre Hartzell repairs done under new ownership. That was my first though when I heard of the sale, hugh spike in cost or just no repair of legacy pre Hartzell units, as they are not under Hartzell warranty and never were. Almost 2 yrs ago I sent in my 6 yr old PMags in for good inspection, and they upgraded a few things at nominal cost. The total cost was very reasonable with short turnaround. Will Hartzell be able to do that? I don't know but I am 100% sure they will not have the personal touch that Brad/Tom and his team brought. You don't normally get to talk to the knowledgeable founder of a company or the people that actually make the product. I think will be lost to one degree or another with the new owner.
The Hartzell people are shadowing the eMag core team and learning, and I am sure they will develop a good understanding of the Pmag and provide good support, just not as personal. The business is operating with the core team (about 5 people make these units) as before, for the time being. E-MAG manufacturing and support activities will be relocated from Azle, Texas to Hartzell Engine Tech's main facility in Montgomery, Alabama. I hope all the core people move and stay with Pmag Hartzell. Hartzell would be wise to keep them and incentivize they stay.
I also guess the cost will be going up (my guess), at least for repairs. As far as supply chain Brad felt Hartzell will keep making Pmags in house, not farming it out. However he also said as they certify it, their will be more overhead, ramp up to mass production, as they must, doing it differently for economy of scale and profitability. No longer a little 5 man shop. Will that affect the "hand made" experimental line of Pmags, as certified line comes on line? We shall see. I take a deep breath and say, hey if I go from loving my Pmag to not so much, there are alternatives. It is not the only game in town. Hartzell will be wise to maintain that loyalty and this brands ambassador's.
Brad and I did not discuss this, but my conjecture they will likely go with Aircraft Mass electrode spark plugs for certified version to make the approval process go smoothly or go at all. You need certified spark plugs, otherwise they would have to go through a spark plug certification. (my guess). I hope they don't try and force aircraft spark plugs onto experimental side. Pmag already had the ability and harness to do mass electrode AC plugs and automotive from the start. That was long ago. If I had bought a Pmag then I would have elected to go with aircraft plugs. But after observering +20 yrs of NGK's in wide service I changed my mind. It would be cool for the certified crowd if they did certify use of NGK's on certified side. Have you priced an aircraft plug lately... OUCH. FAA, Gov, lobbyist? I do not think aircraft spark plugs will go away.
Happy Trails Brad and enjoy your retirement or whatever your next enterprise is. Wear sunscreen why lounging around the pool. Ha ha
He was positive but admitted he had some melancholy, since this was his whole life for +20 yrs. He enjoyed the experimental community, which he credited 100% for making this happen. He was reflective I will say. He told me a lot business, supply chain, in house manufacturing, liabilities... it was very interesting, as I have found talking to Brad to be. I learn a lot, and he entertains my dumb questions with thoughtful answers. I am afraid will be lost in the future.
Oshkosh 2025 was his last obligation to the company and gather he is retired at the moment, as he was talking to me by his pool. The same staff is still working in Texas, almost status quo for now, but that will change. Hartzell will try to certified units. What that means to experimental folks like you and I, he was not spacific, but did give me a feel for what Hartzell told him. Basically I gather they don't plan on making big changes, and recognizes this special product and it's relation to experimental airplane community. Take that for what it is worth.
I asked what he thinks about getting existing pre Hartzell repairs done under new ownership. That was my first though when I heard of the sale, hugh spike in cost or just no repair of legacy pre Hartzell units, as they are not under Hartzell warranty and never were. Almost 2 yrs ago I sent in my 6 yr old PMags in for good inspection, and they upgraded a few things at nominal cost. The total cost was very reasonable with short turnaround. Will Hartzell be able to do that? I don't know but I am 100% sure they will not have the personal touch that Brad/Tom and his team brought. You don't normally get to talk to the knowledgeable founder of a company or the people that actually make the product. I think will be lost to one degree or another with the new owner.
The Hartzell people are shadowing the eMag core team and learning, and I am sure they will develop a good understanding of the Pmag and provide good support, just not as personal. The business is operating with the core team (about 5 people make these units) as before, for the time being. E-MAG manufacturing and support activities will be relocated from Azle, Texas to Hartzell Engine Tech's main facility in Montgomery, Alabama. I hope all the core people move and stay with Pmag Hartzell. Hartzell would be wise to keep them and incentivize they stay.
I also guess the cost will be going up (my guess), at least for repairs. As far as supply chain Brad felt Hartzell will keep making Pmags in house, not farming it out. However he also said as they certify it, their will be more overhead, ramp up to mass production, as they must, doing it differently for economy of scale and profitability. No longer a little 5 man shop. Will that affect the "hand made" experimental line of Pmags, as certified line comes on line? We shall see. I take a deep breath and say, hey if I go from loving my Pmag to not so much, there are alternatives. It is not the only game in town. Hartzell will be wise to maintain that loyalty and this brands ambassador's.
Brad and I did not discuss this, but my conjecture they will likely go with Aircraft Mass electrode spark plugs for certified version to make the approval process go smoothly or go at all. You need certified spark plugs, otherwise they would have to go through a spark plug certification. (my guess). I hope they don't try and force aircraft spark plugs onto experimental side. Pmag already had the ability and harness to do mass electrode AC plugs and automotive from the start. That was long ago. If I had bought a Pmag then I would have elected to go with aircraft plugs. But after observering +20 yrs of NGK's in wide service I changed my mind. It would be cool for the certified crowd if they did certify use of NGK's on certified side. Have you priced an aircraft plug lately... OUCH. FAA, Gov, lobbyist? I do not think aircraft spark plugs will go away.
Happy Trails Brad and enjoy your retirement or whatever your next enterprise is. Wear sunscreen why lounging around the pool. Ha ha
