When I hear of problems, all I can think of are solutions.
I have helped out in other booths that I have some little knowledge of, how about if Vans had some of us volunteer as "orderlies and ushers" to at least acknowledge visitors with a friendly greeting? I am sure there would be no shortage of volunteers, and much of the problem would be solved. We could sort of sift thru the visitors, answering the simple questions, and referring them to the Vans experts when needed. In some cases the prospect would even probably prefer to speak with a real Vans aircraft builder and owner than a factory rep. What do you think?
"Every time I see a partially completed RV project for sale, I think, "if only Van's had been friendlier at the tent.""
Interesting! Wouldn't that reason to stop building be much less probable than:
Burn out?
Fatigue?
$$$$?
Family/life change?
Health?
Frustration with errors?
Other reasons except Van's corporate "bedside manner"?
I laughed.
When I hear of problems, all I can think of are solutions.
I have helped out in other booths that I have some little knowledge of, how about if Vans had some of us volunteer as "orderlies and ushers" to at least acknowledge visitors with a friendly greeting? I am sure there would be no shortage of volunteers, and much of the problem would be solved. We could sort of sift thru the visitors, answering the simple questions, and referring them to the Vans experts when needed. In some cases the prospect would even probably prefer to speak with a real Vans aircraft builder and owner than a factory rep. What do you think?
...The other issue I have is that very few of us are comfortable speaking these three words in succesion, "I" "don't", "know". I hate it when I ask a question and get a BS answer simply because the person can't deflate their ego enough to admit not knowing something. In my mind, having someone who is both knowledgable, yet humble enough to defer questions is the ticket.
The other issue I have is that very few of us are comfortable speaking these three words in succession, "I" "don't", "know". I hate it when I ask a question and get a BS answer simply because the person can't deflate their ego enough to admit not knowing something.
However, I could see a real advantage to VAF having a tent next to or close to the Vans tent for people to chat with seasoned veterans on RV issues.
However, I could see a real advantage to VAF having a tent next to or close to the Vans tent for people to chat with seasoned veterans on RV issues.
Now that would be fun
I am sure that a lot of us with 2,000+ RV flight hours would be willing to help and agree that it would be fun (at least I would enjoy it).
Unfortunately EAA charges for space on the AirVenture Grounds and someone has to pay for it.
Typically the RV Banquet is filled with builders. I typically do not go to the banquet as it is at the same time as an EAA Dinner that I go to. Maybe an RV Lunch or Breakfast could be arranged for a nominal fee that those of us that have more than 15-years and 2,000+ RV Flight hours could meet with builders and future builders to talk and mingle. Dan's Monday evening event was packed and was one such event to meet new RV'ers.
I have several thoughts on this. First, I don't think Vans would ever allow outside help in their tent to answer questions about their product because of the liabilty issues it presents (dissemination of wrong information). However, I could see a real advantage to VAF having a tent next to or close to the Vans tent for people to chat with seasoned veterans on RV issues. The other issue I have is that very few of us are comfortable speaking these three words in succession, "I" "don't", "know". I hate it when I ask a question and get a BS answer simply because the person can't deflate their ego enough to admit not knowing something. In my mind, having someone who is both knowledgable, yet humble enough to defer questions is the ticket.
I guess I have been visiting that tent with some seriousness for over ten years now. Initially, I thought they were really blowing it--not getting the most bang for their buck. I spent much of my life in marketing, and I used to think I could really help them, if only they would listen. That thought has changed over the years.
Van's tent is a textbook example of the adage, "What appeals to one, may not appeal to another." It is also an example of the simplest form of marketing, selling the product with the least amount of effort. No one can deny the success.
These are the most honest folks on the planet, and they won't change that. True, they aren't marketing people, but I find that refreshing. I was there early this year to help unload their truck (actually a couple of our kids helped while I mostly watched.) Everyone does their part, and the job gets done.
Their philosophy starts right at the top with Dick. Dick and I did two forums together this year, and I couldn't be more pleased to work with that man. Don't expect the Van's tent to change anytime soon. That quiet leadership style has built the finest aviation company at Oshkosh, or anywhere else. Don't go there with the expectation of being stroked; it won't happen. But given the time, these people will give you exactly what you need, and you can count on their work and word. Find that somewhere else...
Bob
But it is still HARD to build an airplane and you won't save any money doing so. Thankfully to Van's success their is a ready market of completed aircraft on the market at very reasonable prices.
I agree with all but the middle point, which I too have heard quite often.I wouldn't want to scare anyone away but there's no way I'd be able to afford the plane I'm flying now if I hadn't built it. True, if you add the price of your time, it becomes the same as buying a production plan of similar quality, but I don't add the time in a bar to the cost of the beer.
That said, the smartest adage I ever heard was "the only reason to build an airplane is because you want to BUILD an airplane."
Personally, I've always felt it much cheaper than therapy.
I wouldn't want to scare anyone away but there's no way I'd be able to afford the plane I'm flying now if I hadn't built it...
Only if spreading the cost is an important element of "affordability"
right. My project is pay as you go. So when it was done, I wasn't in debt. If I'd just bought a plane, I'd be $80,000 in debt.
That's my definition of "affordability." I'm kind of old-fashioned that way. My yankee roots, I think.
Someone posted that Van would never allow a builder to display his/her aircraft at Van's display. I have a picture of Van himself rolling the Doll into his display at Sun-N-Fun.
I have always found the team at Van's to be friendly and helpful. They are first class!
right. My project is pay as you go. So when it was done, I wasn't in debt. If I'd just bought a plane, I'd be $80,000 in debt.
That's my definition of "affordability." I'm kind of old-fashioned that way. My yankee roots, I think.
Hey, I'm right there with you. I'm not taking out a loan to buy my next airplane either. But paying 80k over 5 years of kits is not any more "affordable" than paying into a savings account for 5 years and then buying with cash.
I fully understand the desire/need for people to build, but let's not get the terms "behavior" and "affordability" confused. From a strictly financial sense, I can find a clone of nearly anyone's newly completed build project, and own it for less money than you have wrapped up in yours. Or, another way, if you sell your newly completed aircraft, you will likely take a financial loss, even disregarding your labor.
That is the inconvenient truth of today's market. It will cost less to buy than build.
I'm not sure how your math works or what you do for a living but in my case I can't put 80k away over 5 years...
OK, 5 years, 11 years...
Assume a typical builder is still going to drop $30k on the airframe, $30k on the powerplant, and $20k on avionics, paint, and "stuff". My point is simply that no matter how long it tales to build, you are going to spend $80k - and the market says that the same or equivalent airplane can be snatched up by a new owner for $80 or less.
Therefore, if you start building at the same time I start saving, and we both have our first flights of our $80,000 aircraft on the same day, how is your method more "affordable"?
If you save $80k over X number of years to buy an airplane, then I dare say you are not a typical saver. The typical saver (or spouse) would find a zillion places and reasons to spend all or some of that money before it ever comes time to purchase a plane...
If you save $80k over X number of years to buy an airplane, then I dare say you are not a typical saver. The typical saver (or spouse) would find a zillion places and reasons to spend all or some of that money before it ever comes time to purchase a plane. That's just the financial discipline of most. That's why spending a little at a time over the same amount of time is more realistic. I'm sure Dave Ramsey will chime in any time now.
...(or spouse) would find a zillion places and reasons to spend all or some of that money...
...Everyone is different and this is my reason for building. Some don't have the desire to build and that's ok but for some, the build is as important as the ability to fly.
Therefore, if you start building at the same time I start saving, and we both have our first flights of our $80,000 aircraft on the same day, how is your method more "affordable"?
...Debt is risk. The flaw of your analogy is in order to make it, you had to ignore the requirement of debt...
OK, this will be my last post on the subject in this thread, but I must respond because you missed a fundamental point of my analogy:
Saving up for something and then buying is not debt.