My fault. Senior moment.
Van's Air Force
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SB-00043 and Section 9 for RV-10 and R-14/14A Published
- Thread starter greghughespdx
- Start date
My fault. Senior moment.
So far I haven't seen anything from Vans that says anything other than to REPLACE E-00907-1 (if it is an LCP) which is the very part that you would be adding extra rivets to while following SB-00043. Looks pretty consistent if you ask me.
czechsix
Well Known Member
Are the cracks only appearing adjacent to the trim tab hinge?
Has anyone seen a crack along the rear elevator spar that is NOT adjacent to the trim tab hinge? So far I've only seen two pictures of cracks, one on a -10 and the other of Van's demo -14, and these all appear to be located along the upper flange where the trim tab hinge attaches. It would make sense that cracks in this area are more likely than elsewhere along the rear elev spar due to the additional stress/vibration imparted by the trim tab.
Asking because SB-00043 and the updated section 9 elevator plans for the -14 specify sealant along the full length of the rear elev spar, top and bottom, including the R elev which doesn't have a trim tab. This might make sense as a precautionary measure when building new elevators, but mine are complete (but not yet painted or flying), so I'm thinking it might be a reasonable compromise to only apply sealant to the area of the rear elev spar where the trim tab attaches.
Also if the section along the hinge line is the only area affected, it might work for those of us with completed, unpainted elevators to drill out the rivets that secure the hinge/spar flange/skin, pry it open enough to squeeze in some sealant, and rivet it back together again. That would not produce a nice fillet of sealant on the inside, but it would serve to bond the skin to the spar flange thereby reducing the loads concentrated around the rivets. Seems like it would be a lot quicker, easier, and add less weight than the SB method.
Has anyone seen a crack along the rear elevator spar that is NOT adjacent to the trim tab hinge? So far I've only seen two pictures of cracks, one on a -10 and the other of Van's demo -14, and these all appear to be located along the upper flange where the trim tab hinge attaches. It would make sense that cracks in this area are more likely than elsewhere along the rear elev spar due to the additional stress/vibration imparted by the trim tab.
Asking because SB-00043 and the updated section 9 elevator plans for the -14 specify sealant along the full length of the rear elev spar, top and bottom, including the R elev which doesn't have a trim tab. This might make sense as a precautionary measure when building new elevators, but mine are complete (but not yet painted or flying), so I'm thinking it might be a reasonable compromise to only apply sealant to the area of the rear elev spar where the trim tab attaches.
Also if the section along the hinge line is the only area affected, it might work for those of us with completed, unpainted elevators to drill out the rivets that secure the hinge/spar flange/skin, pry it open enough to squeeze in some sealant, and rivet it back together again. That would not produce a nice fillet of sealant on the inside, but it would serve to bond the skin to the spar flange thereby reducing the loads concentrated around the rivets. Seems like it would be a lot quicker, easier, and add less weight than the SB method.
You are making a lot of assumptions based on two pictures. Better to do the entire joint now while your elevator isn't painted than after 5 years of flying and you get cracks somewhere else.
czechsix
Well Known Member
I could apply that logic all over the airframe and put fillets of proseal at every joint just in case something cracks later
...but would rather only apply it where there's a known, documented problem in the field. Hence my question whether anyone out there in the RV universe has found a crack that is not adjacent to the trim tab hinge attachment.SB-00043 is a royal PITA as written but it’s done. Well the messy part is at least.
Removing the Rudder and VS just to get the elevators off is fun. Building the wedge support and drilling out the 58 pop rivets isn’t that bad.
It’s the tube extension that is horrible. I haven’t found any tape the can hold aluminum to plastic while pressuring sludge through it. Do yourself a favor and skip steps 12 and 13. I wasted most of one pro seal tube trying.
There is a MUCH better way. When you order the SB kit from Vans, Call Spruce and order (if you don’t already have these) an AN816, AN818, and AN 819 in a 6D. Flare the 3/8” tube and install the parts. Screw directly into the proseal cartridge and your set. You can now one hand the gun while holding a flashlight in the other.
I highly recommend Vans revise the procedure and kit to this method.
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-tMm3SjC/0/df5dd16f/X3/i-tMm3SjC-X3.jpg
as written but it’s done. Well the messy part is at least. Removing the Rudder and VS just to get the elevators off is fun.
Building the wedge support and drilling out the 58 pop rivets isn’t that bad.It’s the tube extension that is horrible. I haven’t found any tape the can hold aluminum to plastic while pressuring sludge through it. Do yourself a favor and skip steps 12 and 13. I wasted most of one pro seal tube trying.
There is a MUCH better way. When you order the SB kit from Vans, Call Spruce and order (if you don’t already have these) an AN816, AN818, and AN 819 in a 6D. Flare the 3/8” tube and install the parts. Screw directly into the proseal cartridge and your set. You can now one hand the gun while holding a flashlight in the other.
I highly recommend Vans revise the procedure and kit to this method.
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-tMm3SjC/0/df5dd16f/X3/i-tMm3SjC-X3.jpg
Last edited:
Mconner7
Well Known Member
Did you have cracks?
Did you have cracks or were you trying to eliminate the annual inspection requirement of the SB?
SB-00043 is a royal PITA
Removing the Rudder and VS just to get the elevators off is fun.
It’s the tube extension that is horrible. I haven’t found any tape the can hold aluminum to plastic while pressuring sludge through it. Do yourself a favor and skip steps 12 and 13. I wasted most of one pro seal tube trying.
There is a MUCH better way. When you order the SB kit from Vans, Call Spruce and order (if you don’t already have these) an AN816, AN818, and AN 819 in a 6D. Flare the 3/8” tube and install the parts. Screw directly into the proseal cartridge and your set. You can now one hand the gun while holding a flashlight in the other.
I highly recommend Vans revise the procedure and kit to this method.
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-tMm3SjC/0/df5dd16f/X3/i-tMm3SjC-X3.jpg
Did you have cracks or were you trying to eliminate the annual inspection requirement of the SB?
I had two cracks.
Also, this is a great time to do the SB on the lower rudder hinge bracket.
czechsix
Well Known Member
Scott, where exactly are the cracks on your -10?
Left side elevator about middle of trim tab hinge. Pictures posted in “SB-0043 report your findings” thread.
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Dad's RV-10
Well Known Member
As noted above and shown in the attached image, the SB-00043 kit includes E-01414 counterweights, which are placed aft of the E-614 counterweights.
KAI 9_10 incorporates SB-00043 into the plans for construction of new-build RV-10 elevators. While the plans clearly include the use of tank sealant on the trailing edge, I don't see the E-01414 counterweight mentioned or depicted in KAI 9_10.
Thoughts?
KatanaPilot
Well Known Member
My assumption is that you can easily control/limit the amount of proseal you apply during a new build and Van’s has determined the additional weight is not enough to require additional counterbalance weight. The process to proseal this area on a built elevator is much less controlled.
The updated KAI for the RV-14A has the builder trimming less material from 2 of the counterweights than had been done prior to the SB. I assume the '10 is the same.
Dad's RV-10
Well Known Member
If anyone has a saved copy of the previous version of the RV-10 elevator assembly instructions to compare with the current instructions, I'd be curious to know if that is in fact the case.
[email protected]
Well Known Member
About 2007 I met a serial builder of RV10’s at an airport terminal. I asked a lot of questions because I was thinking about ordering an RV10 kit. (I built N810RK between 2008 and 2019). The builder told me it was not necessary to match drill all the parts. He just dimpled everything and riveted it together. Thankfully I did not take his advice. I match drilled everything with a reamer and carefully debured.
This begs the question. How many of you RV10 owners with, cracks in the elevator skins, can vouch for how the parts were prepared before riveting? I would really like to know because I am suspicious that poor prep work prior to riveting could be part of the cause. I could be totally wrong of course. There may be some reason I am not aware of that is causing this problem.
I have about 475 hours on the airframe with no cracks so far.
This begs the question. How many of you RV10 owners with, cracks in the elevator skins, can vouch for how the parts were prepared before riveting? I would really like to know because I am suspicious that poor prep work prior to riveting could be part of the cause. I could be totally wrong of course. There may be some reason I am not aware of that is causing this problem.
I have about 475 hours on the airframe with no cracks so far.
Question
Do you think the engine choice may have had a causal effect on the cracked skin?
Do you think the engine choice may have had a causal effect on the cracked skin?
Richard Connell
Well Known Member
Yes
As well as engine type I’d also be curious as to whether prop and exhaust type makes a difference as well.
Subjectively my 10 with a 3bladed Hartzell and showplanes cowl and associated exhaust sounds and feels different to two blades and a vetterman with mufflers etc.
I have no cracks, but only have 250hobbs or so.
Dad's RV-10
Well Known Member
Thanks, Richard. If I'm reading this correctly, the previous plans version called for removing the entire raised portion from two of the E-614 counterweights while the latest revision calls for removing 75% of the raised portion, leaving behind 1/32" of material. Subtle difference.
I have the exact same question: I would be really good to know if anybody has found cracks NOT adjacent to the trim tab hinge.
I am asking because during my 2 visits to Van's Aircraft (), and my test flight at N57, I inspected the elevator of every RV-14A and RV14 I came across (N914VA, N214VA and N144VA). All of them had cracks, but all of them ONLY had cracks next to the trim tab hinge.
That actually made sense to me, since those are also the only rivets that sit in a countersunk spar (as opposed to a dimpled spar).
Thus, when we built our elevator, we applied a thin layer of tank sealant across that top flange of left elevator spar (essentially what the SB-00043 sais, except we sandwiched the tank sealant before riveting).
So, if there are no reports of cracks NOT adjacent to the trim tab hinge, I am inclined to just stick with inspecting. On the other hand, if someone shows me a single photo of a crack NOT adjacent to the trim tab hinge, it's time to put the sealant everywhere, following SB-00043.
Thanks!
[email protected]
Well Known Member
Thanks for replying. I have been wondering about this and you answered my question. I would almost rather build new elevators that comply with the SB.
dmattmul
Well Known Member
Be careful
One needs to understand the powerplant/prop combination before jumping to conclusions. Diesels produce a very different vibration sequence than a Lycoming. As stated earlier all Vans 14’s demo aircraft have produced multiple cracks but as far as I know the Vans 10 demo has not produced any elevator trim cracking, why? It’s much older and many more hours than the 14’s. 4 cylinder engines with 2 blade props produce a very different harmonic disruption that a 6 cylinder engine with a 2 or 3 blades prop.
Aeronautical engineers welcome to jump in.
One needs to understand the powerplant/prop combination before jumping to conclusions. Diesels produce a very different vibration sequence than a Lycoming. As stated earlier all Vans 14’s demo aircraft have produced multiple cracks but as far as I know the Vans 10 demo has not produced any elevator trim cracking, why? It’s much older and many more hours than the 14’s. 4 cylinder engines with 2 blade props produce a very different harmonic disruption that a 6 cylinder engine with a 2 or 3 blades prop.
Aeronautical engineers welcome to jump in.
I picked up my RV-14 empennage kit on 10/7/23 (the day after I was notified it was ready) and it did NOT have the updated plans
SB-00043 is a royal PITA
Removing the Rudder and VS just to get the elevators off is fun.
It’s the tube extension that is horrible. I haven’t found any tape the can hold aluminum to plastic while pressuring sludge through it. Do yourself a favor and skip steps 12 and 13. I wasted most of one pro seal tube trying.
There is a MUCH better way. When you order the SB kit from Vans, Call Spruce and order (if you don’t already have these) an AN816, AN818, and AN 819 in a 6D. Flare the 3/8” tube and install the parts. Screw directly into the proseal cartridge and your set. You can now one hand the gun while holding a flashlight in the other.
I highly recommend Vans revise the procedure and kit to this method.
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i.
Why not use the nylo-seal fittings that came with the kit for the brake lines. Just tighten on the aluminum tubing. Most of us are not using them anyway. But thanks for the idea. I’m giving it try today.
Halleffect
Active Member
Recommend Gorilla tape
SB-00043 is a royal PITA
Removing the Rudder and VS just to get the elevators off is fun.
It’s the tube extension that is horrible. I haven’t found any tape the can hold aluminum to plastic while pressuring sludge through it. Do yourself a favor and skip steps 12 and 13. I wasted most of one pro seal tube trying.
There is a MUCH better way. When you order the SB kit from Vans, Call Spruce and order (if you don’t already have these) an AN816, AN818, and AN 819 in a 6D. Flare the 3/8” tube and install the parts. Screw directly into the proseal cartridge and your set. You can now one hand the gun while holding a flashlight in the other.
I highly recommend Vans revise the procedure and kit to this method.
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i.
Why not use the nylo-seal fittings that came with the kit for the brake lines. Just tighten on the aluminum tubing. Most of us are not using them anyway. But thanks for the idea. I’m giving it try today.
I put a little bit of a flare on the tubing and used Gorilla tape to attach the tubing to the ProSeal cartridge. It worked great. Don't forget to cut back the ProSeal applicator tip as shown in the bulletin, otherwise it must push through a pretty small opening.
BruceEicher
Well Known Member
.125 yes aluminum 2x3.5”
[email protected]
Well Known Member
If I was building new right now and the elevator was not riveted together yet, I would bond the rear spar, trim hinge and skin together with Pro Seal (tank sealant) as I was assembling it. For good measure I would put extra rivets between the plans rivets and of course carefully ream, debur and dimple everything. The tiny amount of sealant required would be inconsequential as far as weight goes. (It should be spread quite thin, just enough to bond) However I would put maybe 2 1/4-28 nutplate on the outside of the outboard rib to adjust balance if necessary.
Mine has been finished since 2/2020 with 480 hours and no cracks. I think the Van’s fix is marginal and if I get any cracks I am going to order new elevator kits and build them as I described.
Just a note that too many rivets can be bad, also…
[email protected]
Well Known Member
Are you using a 2 bladed prop or 3 blades? It has occurred to me that the load on the elevators is likely a little different as a 3 bladed prop will provide roughly 50% more puffs of air than a 2 bladed prop changing the frequency quite a bit.
I have no idea if that would make a difference but it is something that should be looked at by people with more engineering knowledge than I have.
I am baffled why some high timers have no problems and some low timers have cracks. There has to be a reason that is yet un discovered.
[email protected]
Well Known Member
I agree with your assessment of Van’s fix. I have no cracks at 480 hours and I will build new elevators If I get any.
[email protected]
Well Known Member
I think that we need to find what is common on those aircraft that have cracks. Even if we don’t understand the reason why, it will give the better educated in our group food for thought that may eventually explain the reason why.
vic syracuse
Well Known Member
This is only based upon experience of having looked at over 2000 RVs over the years. These are metal aircraft, and overall the fleet is quite young. Plus, we have lots of different combinations of propellers and engines. With regards to props it is everything from fixed pitch metal, wood, composite, ground-adjustable, constant speed, etc. Engines are all over the map, too, from 4/6 cylinder, a gas, auto fuel, diesel, high compression, electronic ignition, etc. It’s really hard to find and study a control group.
But here’s what I’ve noticed over the years: when we started balancing propellers I did notice a substantial decrease in cracking of baffles in the engine compartments. When we started seeing more composite props installed, I noticed less cracking elsewhere throughout the aircraft. My own RV-10 airframe has almost 3500 hours, with no cracking. It has a 6 cylinder Thunderbolt and an MT prop.
I started thinking about this a long time ago when we started seeing SBs published for the hinge spar cracks on the ailerons and elevators. they are at the outboard locations of these metal aircraft, and I can’t help but wonder if there are some harmonics going on that we haven’t discovered yet, especially with the metal props? Those metal props are big tuning forks.
I’m wondering if we could get some more data with a poll that would include the type of engine/propeller combination, along with a check box for cracks associated with each SB?
I am not saying this is the problem. It is an observation based upon field experience. But is might shed some light on while some aircraft have cracks and others don’t.
Vic
But here’s what I’ve noticed over the years: when we started balancing propellers I did notice a substantial decrease in cracking of baffles in the engine compartments. When we started seeing more composite props installed, I noticed less cracking elsewhere throughout the aircraft. My own RV-10 airframe has almost 3500 hours, with no cracking. It has a 6 cylinder Thunderbolt and an MT prop.
I started thinking about this a long time ago when we started seeing SBs published for the hinge spar cracks on the ailerons and elevators. they are at the outboard locations of these metal aircraft, and I can’t help but wonder if there are some harmonics going on that we haven’t discovered yet, especially with the metal props? Those metal props are big tuning forks.
I’m wondering if we could get some more data with a poll that would include the type of engine/propeller combination, along with a check box for cracks associated with each SB?
I am not saying this is the problem. It is an observation based upon field experience. But is might shed some light on while some aircraft have cracks and others don’t.
Vic
I have a three bladed propeller. I also have a HIGH compression engine which will change the harmonics transferred through the airframe.
bonefishdave
Well Known Member
Just a quick comment, the wings SB are for the inboard attach bracket. My thought on the elevator is early on when I started doing the first flights on my 7, I was use to holding full back elevator while doing the run up. When observing another RV doing a run up I noticed a lot of buffeting going on at the elevator while doing their run up. Since then over the years I’m leaving the elevator neutral and I’m getting no buffeting during run ups and no cracks.
vic syracuse
Well Known Member
Yes, I agree it’s the inboard bracket, but it’s on an outboard control surface.
