Report on flying a 6cyl Subie RV-8

[BoomerSooner]

and the Winner is...

This is a wonder Boxing match. In the Subie Corner is bob and weaving the finesse fighter like Sugar Ray Leonard vs the Lycoming Slugger Roberto Duran

Seems to me each has its points so perfectly fine tuned that it is a wash in the real world. Don't think that anyone is going to argue that for pure speed for most pilots mission its lycoming hands down. But to say that speed is all that matters is naive. I think that I would sacrifice some TAS for some of the benefits that the Egg subie has to offer. The question is how much TAS?

I want to thank you guys for this Thread. I haven't even begun to build my Lyco/Subbie RV 7, but even with all this input I"m still totally undecided. just Just as undecided as to what i want my avionics suite to look like. I just know that i'll have them

Sad for me that I won't have to decide until oh say 3 years
but until then i hope advances in the Egg subbie side will have me hopping off the fence.

Variable #3 Diesel

 

[rv6ejguy]

FWIW, how many auto engines are designed and engineered to constantly run, hour after hour, in excess of 4000 RPMs? Only one that I know of, the Chevrolet LS engines.

The cost of ownership is more accurate than the cost of purchase.

I guess you don't follow the developments of auto engines these days. ALL engines built today are run for hundreds or thousands of hours WOT high rpm.
This is the single biggest misconception that many people hold today. Wanna know the facts, subscribe to SAE or search out the stuff published independently by GM Powertrain. You can search the threads here and find what they subject auto engines to routinely to validate the designs. These tests would destroy a Lycoming in a few minutes assuming it even started (cold weather validation). Show me auto engines that are fragging because someone runs them all day at 4000+rpm. This is the oldest tale which holds about as much water as a pasta sieve.

Cost of ownership? Let's see, spark plugs go 500-1000 hours and cost $6 each, doesn't burn/leak any oil between changes, no valve adjustments, no carb, no mags, no crank replacements hmmm. I'd say cost of ownership consists of fuel, 4L of oil every 50 hours and $24 worth of plugs about every 3-8 years. This is the whole point of modern auto engines- they don't need to be worked on until overhaul. When overhaul comes, worst scenerio is a new long block for $5500 or you can re-ring and put gaskets and bearings in plus grind the valves for $1000-$1500. The low vibration levels save airframe maintenace as well. I don't know how many times my friend has fixed his heat muff/ air filter assembly on his Lyco RV now in a couple hundred hours due to cracking.

 

[TSwezey]

RV6ejguy,
How far off are you from finishing the -10?

 

[pierre smith]

Guess I'll have to get my 6A revamped, enter some races down south and show you what a mouse motor can do. It's on my list now. Whooosh!

The next wave has started and nothin' is gonna stop it.

How 'bout I buy your gas, you come down to Georgia and we race for pinks?

 

[N62XS]

OK, BUT!

I guess you don't follow the developments of auto engines these days. ALL engines built today are run for hundreds or thousands of hours WOT high rpm.
This is the single biggest misconception that many people hold today. Wanna know the facts, subscribe to SAE or search out the stuff published independently by GM Powertrain. You can search the threads here and find what they subject auto engines to routinely to validate the designs. These tests would destroy a Lycoming in a few minutes assuming it even started (cold weather validation). Show me auto engines that are fragging because someone runs them all day at 4000+rpm. This is the oldest tale which holds about as much water as a pasta sieve.

Simply not true! A stock 4 cylinder running at 4900 RPMs, all day long will not only get about 10 MPG, it will not reach 50,000 miles. My next door neighbor owns a Subaru dealership. I have had this conversation with several of his factory trained mechanics and the regional zone rep for Subaru. The engines, while able to deliver the advertised horsepower at this power setting were designed to propel a car, with a variable ratio transmission, in the 2000 to 2700 RPM range. Constant use of the engine outside of these ranges will reduce TBO and reliability just like constantly running a Lyconite at 2700RPMs will. Lycoming recommends operation under 2500 RPMs to achieve max engine life. The advances in metalurgy are incremental and have not signifcantly improved the life of the components over the past 30 years. The advances have all come in the use of computer technology, in the manufacture of close tolerance parts and in the management/control of the engine operation. Close tolerance parts have allowed the use of lighter oils and less friction. Computer management/control of the engine operation has allowed more efficient use of ignition parameters, close to limits, without damage, allowing for better performance, better fuel mileage and less emmisions.

Cost of ownership? Let's see, spark plugs go 500-1000 hours and cost $6 each, doesn't burn/leak any oil between changes, no valve adjustments, no carb, no mags, no crank replacements hmmm. I'd say cost of ownership consists of fuel, 4L of oil every 50 hours and $24 worth of plugs about every 3-8 years. This is the whole point of modern auto engines- they don't need to be worked on until overhaul. When overhaul comes, worst scenerio is a new long block for $5500 or you can re-ring and put gaskets and bearings in plus grind the valves for $1000-$1500. The low vibration levels save airframe maintenace as well. I don't know how many times my friend has fixed his heat muff/ air filter assembly on his Lyco RV now in a couple hundred hours due to cracking.

How often does your Subie need an overhaul? What about the insurance question? How many airports offer car gas vs. 100LL? Why not answer the question about why the majors are not using subies? What does a turnkey egg conversion cost? $30K? My lyconite cost less than half of that. Answer all of the questions from my quote. Did Tony and Bob write books for the auto conversion installation? Does Vans use auto conversions? Both answers are no. Why? Reliability, liability, cost of purchase, cost of ownership and ease of use/maintenance all favor the Lyconite. The subie/maz/corvair auto conversion camp needs to be honest with themselves first and then the true admonition of the facts can start. 12 step?

Don't get me wrong. I think the guys with the LS engines are on to a great thing. I am not trying to bust anyone's kahones, but the auto conversion camp has been on the verge for the entire time I have been flying and never reached the top of the hill and NEVER WILL! If expermenting is the goal, I think the auto conversion camp wins hands down, but if flying a reliable, cost effective airplane is in your near future, Las Vegas odds favor that the prop will be turned by a Lyconite. History may be written by the victor, but numbers do not lie.

 

[N62XS]

BTW!!

Why not post your name in your signature?

My cash is on Pierre.

How much is your time worth?

 

[rv6ejguy]

My -10 is a good 18-24 months from completion. Pierre, the 6A will be longer than that so as I said before don't hold your breath but when done, I do plan to do some XC races with it..

Hard Knox, as I said, if you want the unbiased FACTS on how they test and validate modern auto engines, become a member of the Society of Automotive Engineers http://www.sae.org/ and buy the papers published. Don't take my word for it. You simply don't know what your are talking about here. Go to Europe and rent a car and see what rpm millions of people cruise at every day. Look at the side of the road and count the vast numbers of broken cars. Come on! The facts are looking at you in the face. As I've asked many here on VAF before, SHOW ME that modern auto engines are breaking or wearing out by running at 4-4500 rpm.

Many Egg engines have hundreds of hours on them now running at 4000-4900 rpm. Show me one report that these are burning oil, have low compression or are throwing rods out the case. RAF has been powering their gyros with EJ engines for over 10 years and the have over 100,000 hours on the fleet. I am not aware of a single mechanical engine failure in that time. http://www.rotaryairforce.com/raf2000/technology.html Groen Bothers' Sparrowhawk Gyros have used the EJ engines for years.http://www.americanautogyro.com/SparrowHawk Specifications.htm
In both cases, these are the only engines recommended for their airframes and there are hundreds of these aircraft flying.

I have no problem insuring my Sube RV through COPA and neither do Egg users. Same rate as a Lyco. I burn 100LL exclusively and so do many of the EGG users. The Subaru is not a certified engine which would be a requirement for the OEMs to use them. Van's uses Lycos because they designed the airframes around them but they have been somewhat open to the idea of other engines and have an open invitation to anyone who would like to fly alternate engines against their demo planes. I don't expect Vans to endorse any auto conversion until many more are out there and are proven. Why would they?

Tony and Bob's books were written with cert engines in mind. They had no knowledge of auto engines. I don't see your point here.

I don't see how you could have lower maintenance or operating costs than a Sube. Ask others here what they have done to date on theirs. I think you will find that they change the oil and turn the key pretty much.

Alternate engines are clearly not for everyone. They are simply a rapidly growing alternative for many. Like it or not, this is reality.

Ross Farnham

 

[bumblebee]

STOP!!!

In the interest of elevating this endless "discussion" to a more civil level, I propose an X Prize or DARPA Challenge for alternative engines reaching or surpassing traditional propulsion (Lyco/Hartzell) performance numbers (TAS, gph, etc).

The rules would be based on strict criteria for measuring torque(hp) on a certified dynomometer, airframes would be identical except for necessary cowl mods for liquid cooled engines. Van's "control" aircraft would have no modifications to cowl.

There would be NO assumptions or anecdotal data allowed.

If this fails, Plan B might include locking George and Ross in a cage at next Van's Homecoming, armed only with a single blade from their propeller of choice.

Otherwise, this entire "debate" is pointless. No data, no claim.

Any takers?

 

[rv6ejguy]

If this fails, Plan B might include locking George and Ross in a cage at next Van's Homecoming, armed only with a single blade from their propeller of choice.

Any takers?

I like this idea. I have a spare IVO blade in the corner, very sharp edges and only weighs 6 pounds. Lower moment of inertia than a Hartzell metal blade. Of course if George lands a blow with that Hartzell, I'm toast. Oh, but the IVO isn't certified, does that make a difference? Will this be televised on Spike? Watch it, I've seen both "Kill Bill" movies!

Thanks for the levity! That made me laff.

 

[N62XS]

BFB, I'm out!

You owe me lunch!

 

[bumblebee]

Oh, but the IVO isn't certified, does that make a difference?

Couldn't be a more perfect metaphor....Ross wields the experimental composite sword vs. George with the certified headsman's axe.

Thunderdome Redux. Hey, we might have something here.....all we need is Doug Reeves' gyro mount for the vidcam and we're set.

Someone get Spike on the horn!!

 

[Rotary10-RV]

Couldn't be a more perfect metaphor....Ross wields the experimental composite sword vs. George with the certified headsman's axe.

Thunderdome Redux. Hey, we might have something here.....all we need is Doug Reeves' gyro mount for the vidcam and we're set.

Someone get Spike on the horn!!

BB,
The levity is a good thing, but the fact is that many GOOD Alt engine posters get driven away by the constant bashers drumbeat. The FACTS are that an alternate engine won't beat out a Lyc in every catagory, until one does. Sounds kind of silly like "where ever you go , there you are!" But if nobody makes an effort, THERE WILL NEVER BE BETTER ENGINES FOR ANY OF US. I am just not content with that. At this point I rarely reply to the posts because if I offer fact, as Ross does, it is ignored and replied to with drivel. If your Lyc gets better GPH than my engine good for you, but my alt-engined plane may be better at some point. If I can finish I hope to demonstrate that. But the Lyc drivers would prefer I never start. No progress is ever made without initiative, I can tell you the only ones showing any, and they are not installing Lycs.
Bill Jepson
P.S. There is now documeted evidence of the fact that not only that bumblebees can fly, but also how.
WRJ

 

[N62XS]

In an effort to be fair.

Bill:

The levity is a good thing, but the fact is that many GOOD Alt engine posters get driven away by the constant bashers drumbeat.

Not bashing, opinion and active debate.

The FACTS are that an alternate engine won't beat out a Lyc in every catagory

Agreed. It would help the debate to list those catagories. Most would say autos will not beat in any. I will interject that factory/vendor support needs improvement on both sides, save Mahlon.

At this point I rarely reply to the posts because if I offer fact, as Ross does, it is ignored

I rarely see facts from anyone, just conjecture. Tellng me to join SAE to prove a point that is subjective, at best, is not FACT. Numbers talk, subjective opinions, without numbers, walk.

If I can finish I hope to demonstrate that. But the Lyc drivers would prefer I never start. No progress is ever made without initiative. I can tell you the only ones showing any, and they are not installing Lycs.

Second sentence and last sentence in the above quote are the reasons most auto conversion vendors and customers are treated and greeted like an unwanted bill. The arrogance visible in these statements immediately signals that persons with this attitude are ready to fight without FACTS! "Everyone's" favorite auto conversion vendor is the prime purveyor of this attitude. Until he and the others with this inferiority complex change, there will never be objective dialog or agreement on any of your catagories.

I agree with your third sentence in the above quote 110%. If you would eliminate the first, second and fourth sentences, you may make some progress in forwarding the acceptance of the auto conversion engine idea.

In keeping with the flying insect them, people catch more flies with honey than they do with vinegar.

FWIW and apologies to BFB. I'm waiting for lunch.

 

[David-aviator]

Robby,

The thread is about the same over and over again and again.

I get private mail on the subject like what follows (sender deleted) weekly and the response is about the same.....the bottom line, it is matter of personal preference, not hard numbers. Lycoming has been around a long time. Some of the auto engines are suited for aircraft use. Both are excellent. The matter is somewhat like which religion suits you. Not everyone belongs to the same church.

David Domeier
RV-7A H6
N707DD
Troy, Missourie


Originally Posted by XXXXXX
You seem to be as well versed as anyone on VAF and you fly an alternative engine.

I didn't want to start [prolong] any engine 'wars' and wanted to sincerely know why you chose what you did?

I figured if you were writing off line and to a sympathic ear you might feel more comfortable to be 'direct'.

I'd like simple but I'd equally like the benefits of the engineering and autogas of an alternative [always the tension isn't it]. Speed is third to safety and efficiency [overall, fuel consumption/maintenance/replacement].

My email is XXXXXX if you'd rather reply in that format.

thanks,

John


John,

There is no perfect engine for everyone.

The reason I am with a Subaru at this time is I was bored with Lycoming when the decision was made. Two previous experimental airplanes were with Lycoming.

The pros and cons of each are well known. Each have good features. Each have less than good features. The final decision is a personal one and no one can make it for you. Decide what you want and go for it.

Both engines are reliable IMHO. Both burn about the same amount of fuel per HP. I like the electronics of Subaru over magnetos. I like fuel injection over a carb. The list goes on and on.

I wish Subaru moved the airplane as fast as Lycoming, but it does not. Some, like Robert Paisley, are good at fine tuning the installation and getting Lycoming speeds, but it may be at a higher fuel burn. We do not have all the answers yet. Liquid cooling drag is an issue.

Good luck.

David Domeier

 

[N62XS]

Like Minds.

David:

I have no issue with the use of auto conversion engines and you are correct in stating that it is personal preference. I DO have issues with subjective individuals that tout auto conversion engines as the simple, easy, inexpensive answer to an over priced Lyconte. Persons new to building see the few arrogant auto conversion engine evangalists and vendors as the final answer, not knowing that it is rarely no less simple, easy or inexpensive as the Lyconte. The simple numbers are easy to produce. How many of each are flying? What does the manufacturer, Vans, recommend and fly? Who has the best vendor support? How many vendors offer the products? You already answered some of the other questions in your message.

Respectfully, as I have stated before, my problem is not with the builders that use auto conversion engines, my problem is with the few arrogant auto conversion engine evangalists and vendors that talk about facts that cannot be produced in a documented fashion and the same that promise heaven, but deliver a FWF package that is not simple, easy or inexpensive for the average builder.

Please understand the difference.

 

[cobra]

It is difficult to discuss complex systems in one-way conversations. Many issues are involved, e.g., cost, weight, performance, reliablity, maintenance, operating traits, ease of installation, availability, support, insurability, exposure/history, etc. Everyone has a unique set of decision criteria priorities that get obsured when personal opinions enter the discussion.

The biggest difficulty I have personlly with the Lyc crowd, is the always-present argument that a long history makes anything outside that backward-looking viewpoint as wrong or not as worthy of consideration. That alone makes no sense to me; valid performance comparisons do. Personally, I could care less which engine a person chooses (it is their money, not mine; it is definately NOT a zero sum game where one wins and the other automatically loses). I AM interested in WHY their decision was made, how they pulled it off, and how it's worked out compared to other applications.

The problem with bashers (not talking about dissenting discussions or observations) is that they occasionally ignore the message and revert to attacking the messenger with irrelevent arguments. Another big problem is the data selection are often taken out of context- where only arguments that support a narrow viewpoint are used to generalize the entire universe. Bashers are generally close-minded if you ask me, not acting at all like an "experimental" crowd should. If everyone had that idea-limiting attitude, we would all still be wearing animal skins and bashing each other with clubs...

Im not implying that the tried-and-true are not important; I think it is important to remember that the true pioneers who have worked outside-the-box are the true innovators throughout history. New ideas (or technology) have seldom been popular or initially accepted by the majority, and often not until big-money contracts got involved.

Regarding arrogance, there is plenty to go around on both sides of the fence. The problem, as I see it, is there is too little relevent information avilable on either side to compare the alternatives fairly or completely. Alternative engine technology is sometimes difficult to pin down for comparison, simply because those apps are constantly being IMPROVED over time. Certified engines are the exact opposite- they are certified to avoid changes of any sort, which could exclude worthwhile improvements, until they become commercially viable enough to recertify.

As to which relative state-of-the-art is preferable, well, that is subjective. Engine technology is what it is- a set of performance characteristics- it does not necessarily involve good or bad until personal "opinionations" get involved.

 

[rv6ejguy]

Very good post Mike. I couldn't have summed up my view on this much better.

 

[N62XS]

Whats your name?

Please use name in signature files.

 

[Rotary10-RV]

Bill:
Agreed. It would help the debate to list those catagories. Most would say autos will not beat in any. I will interject that factory/vendor support needs improvement on both sides, save Mahlon.

It's interesting to me that the guy that wants signatures on mails can't even post the entire sentance, let alone the the context infered by it in his rebuttal.

I rarely see facts from anyone, just conjecture. Tellng me to join SAE to prove a point that is subjective, at best, is not FACT. Numbers talk, subjective opinions, without numbers, walk.

The numbers are there, your willingness to investigate isn't. You, must have a membership to download and reprint SAE info which is unfortunate. There are many searchable sources still. If someone printed footnotes with page and chapter would you look? Or claim a lack of information?

Second sentence and last sentence in the above quote are the reasons most auto conversion vendors and customers are treated and greeted like an unwanted bill. The arrogance visible in these statements immediately signals that persons with this attitude are ready to fight without FACTS! "Everyone's" favorite auto conversion vendor is the prime purveyor of this attitude. Until he and the others with this inferiority complex change, there will never be objective dialog or agreement on any of your catagories

Talk about chery picking and lack of context! If read in context none of what I stated was arrogant in the slightest. I state only what I hope and intend to prove. If you read in something that isn't there it isn't beacuse of what I posted. As an example every time I have inserted FACTUAL examples about rotarys (my particular choice) I am refuted by people that just "know" that can't be the truth.

I appologise to all the regular posters for bothering to continue these comments, as I'm sure they'er tiresome.

Bill Jepson

 

[Rotary10-RV]

Subaru Speed/endurance record

For those considering a Subaru I offer this fact. This is a certified FIA record. The only time the engine wasn't flat out during this 18-1/2 DAY period was for fueling, tire and driver changes. You can expect these engines will be reliable! Please keep in mind I'm not a Subaru owner or user but I do consider this pretty impressive You will still have to CAREFULLY engineer the rest of the package to be safe and efficient.

The original Legacy speed record was set between January 2nd and 21st, 1989, with a Japanese-spec RS sedan at the Arizona Test Center outside of Phoenix, Arizona. It broke the 100,000km FIA World Land Endurance Record by maintaining an average speed of 138.780 mph (223.345 km/h) for 447 hours, 44 minutes and 9.887 seconds, or 18 1/2 days. Pit stops were made every two hours with a driver change and refueling, while tire changes were made at 96 hour intervals, or every 13,400 miles driven.

Reprinted from Subaru literature.

Bill Jepson

 

[cjensen]

Wow. This thread went wildly out of control...as they usually do. Sometimes I wonder why we really need to argue this topic. I know there are those that say it's because the "Newbie" builder needs to be educated. Do you really think anyone about to drop $25k on an engine is going to do so without proper education and research? I think not. A new builder is far enough away from needing an engine, there is plenty of time to research the topic. That's how I came to my own conclusions as to which way I'm gonna go. It certainly wasn't because of ANYTHING I read on any forum. I find nothing wrong or right with either choice here, they're just different. But, because this is such a personal choice/decision, arguments are really pointless. The forums are great places for info exchange, and opinions are certainly welcome and encouraged, but when it comes to personal attacks, I get totally turned off to read any further. I totally respect everyone's posts here, so this isn't aimed at anyone, just an observation...

If you want an alternative, research it, and if it's the right thing for you, buy it. If you want a traditional powerplant, research it, and if it's the right thing for you, buy it.

No one wins these arguments...

 

[N62XS]

Shotgun!

Hey Chad:

I think you hit all of us birds with one shot! Now thats the way to craft a posting.

It didn't even hurt, either.

BTW I don't consider this an argument, just lively, opinionated debate, with out blood. Earlier, this thread was proposing aviation style gladiator games. I think it has calmed down.

BFB-I'm hungry! Changing your initials to BFC.

Later.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

I like it

Ross wields the experimental composite sword vs. George with the certified headsman's axe.

I LIKE THAT "wields the headsman's axe" ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

No girly-man blades, with glue and strings and such things; Give me properly pumped-up metal blades with pump-it-tude. Flaccid wimpy composite blades are for girly-mans, do you like little weak girly-man blades; do you paint your girly-man blades pink and put bows and ribbons on them. Yaaa

 

[cobra]

Geroge,
You can certainly bring your manly, but heavy metal blades to the gunfight if you want...

 

[airguy]

BTW the Orenda was a Chevy by another name, it cost too much and was bigger than most GA people needed, SO IT FAILED. This was predictable.

Not just yet it hasn't - this engine is now back in production in Odessa, TX by a company named Trace. From what I understand they bought the whole production tooling, parts, and drawings, lock stock and barrel, and trucked it all into the new location here to give it a try.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled gladiator event.

Oh yeah - I still want a turbodiesel.

 

[N62XS]

Lets get way out there!

How about a fuel cell or electric motor? How about a cooking oil engine? How about the stuff the Nazi Ba#@%ds used in WWII, t-stoph and c-stoph. Wasn't that stuff hydrogen peroxide and something else? I vote for a solar/wind powered motor? After Gladiator George is wacked with a blade, he will be thinking outside the box. No telling what he can come up with, flying saucers, crop circles, flying monkeys, a J-3 powered by our collective hot air? Oh, all of those are already here, whatever! Anyway, LET THE GAMES BEGIN, but include the vendors too!!!

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Just in

ANTI GRAVITY GENERATOR, nuff said, I'll have it out Oshkosh 2020, taking deposits NOW. I'm working on getting a dilithium crystal vendor. I can't get the anti-anti-matter out of my warp drive.

 

[Deuskid]

world of difference

between having fun and making fun of....

I love witty reparte' but not crass belittlement....

if you aren't certain if how what you write will be taken then simply don't write it as I've learned from my own painful mistakes it usually will be "mis - taken" in this form or communication [seems sarcasm is best shared face to face where the non-verbal [the most important] elements of communication provide the necessary nuances for it to be understood for the fun intent desired]...

I've been around just long enough to have seen 2 full runs of "engine war's" discussions. In the first run I did multiple searches and found tons of previous comments available as well. I've read this thread daily and learned a few things but heard a bunch of stuff simply repeated.

None of the options discussed here is 'my dream' [turbo direct injected diesel] but I learn from all meaningful discussions and welcome them.

I have a suggestion whether you are a traditional guy or alternative guy:

rather than repeat yourself simply link to a previous thread/post where you've already fully explained your position and then add anything NEW you may have to offer.

This will give the newbies the benefit of your knowledge and insights and allow them to appreaciate the depth of knowledge within this wonderful site. It'll help those who are in the 'middle' knowledge base to identify what is new and gleem it - it'll let the 'knowlegable' to refine what they have to offer only that which is 'NEW' rather than just flogging the same old stuff.

And remember fun loving remarks that come across as mean spirited simply reduce your credibility.

Sorry this is so long and I hope this doesn't offend anyone and is taken in the helpful spirit intended.

Happy Thanksgivng [for we all have much for which to be thankful]

John

 

[N62XS]

"John", call a spade a spade.

"John", as I read your well crafted post, the thought strikes me, just say what you really mean. If you fear it may offend, use e-mail or PM, but just say it. Constructive criticism, lively debate, semi-respectful exchanges of opinion and compromise are the basic building blocks of any conversation that possibly result in either an agreement or or a stalemate. Discussion of this subject, as with primer, will never result in an agreement, but without factual debate, nothing will ever change.

Hsve a good Thanksgiving and keep posting.

 

[Deuskid]

"John", as I read your well crafted post, the thought strikes me, just say what you really mean. If you fear it may offend, use e-mail or PM, but just say it. Constructive criticism, lively debate, semi-respectful exchanges of opinion and compromise are the basic building blocks of any conversation that possibly result in either an agreement or or a stalemate. Discussion of this subject, as with primer, will never result in an agreement, but without factual debate, nothing will ever change.

Hsve a good Thanksgiving and keep posting.

Robby -

I said it.

1] Be positive.

2] Be considerate that what might be meant to be understood one way may easily be mis-read another [therefore craft words well and be silent if you aren't sure your intent is understood [btw, there are times I wish to 'affront' someone [just ask any of my 3 sons .. but be sure that is your intent if it is possible you will]].

3] Don't repeat what you've posted before - instead link to it. It refines the discussion and invites those interested to delve into the good discussions of the past. My dad [a machinist [a really great craftsman]] says that if you are repeating yourself you are arguing.

I welcome open debate. I often say that truth is refined in the crucible of open debate. Bring it on. Only I want to make it as productive as possible.

If I've been obtuse please just ask - I'll try to better explain myself. I thought I had before.

Peace,

John

 

[N62XS]

PC

Be positive.

Be considerate

Don't repeat

I welcome open debate. I often say that truth is refined in the crucible of open debate. Bring it on. Only I want to make it as productive as possible.

If I've been obtuse please just ask - I'll try to better explain myself. I thought I had before.

Peace,

John

"John", no personal offense intended, but this PC verbage sounds like something out of a 69 VW MicroBus. Obtuse, no, PC yes and I am well aquainted with and have a keen understanding of that foul language. Open debate rarely results in truth, but in compromise that is as subjective as the perception of truth. This discussion has veered too far off the Subie evaluation topic and further banter attempting to rationalize a feel good, almost winner mentality vs. a Dragnet/Joe Friday attitude, is equally subjective, thus a useless endeavour.

I hope you have a good Thanksgiving in St. Louis. I plan to drink Wild Turkey and eat a wild turkey I shot last week in Southeast Georgia with my family and friends. Lets agree to kill this thread, as well.

 

[Deuskid]

First you wrote [I've used bold to indicate the point

"John", as I read your well crafted post, the thought strikes me, just say what you really mean. If you fear it may offend, use e-mail or PM, but just say it. Constructive criticism, lively debate, semi-respectful exchanges of opinion and compromise are the basic building blocks of any conversation that possibly result in either an agreement or or a stalemate. Discussion of this subject, as with primer, will never result in an agreement, but without factual debate, nothing will ever change.

Hsve a good Thanksgiving and keep posting.

Then you wrote [again bolded to indicate where]

"John", no personal offense intended, but this PC verbage sounds like something out of a 69 VW MicroBus. Obtuse, no, PC yes and I am well aquainted with and have a keen understanding of that foul language. Open debate rarely results in truth, but in compromise that is as subjective as the perception of truth. This discussion has veered too far off the Subie evaluation topic and further banter attempting to rationalize a feel good, almost winner mentality vs. a Dragnet/Joe Friday attitude, is equally subjective, thus a useless endeavour.

I hope you have a good Thanksgiving in St. Louis. I plan to drink Wild Turkey and eat a wild turkey I shot last week in Southeast Georgia with my family and friends. Lets agree to kill this thread, as well.

Which is it? Debate or don't debate.

I'm anything but PC.

If you don't want to be postive, if you want to repeat yourelf and if you don't want to be considerate then don't.

I have my own firm now but before leaving corporate america I was a corp. controller of a fortune 500 company. I had hundreds of folks working within my department and thousands in the company. When I graduated from high school I was working in a steel mill 2 days later. I worked my way through college and earned the sucess I have. Through time and effort I've learned what is sucessful and what isn't. If you seek confrontation for the sake of it then go ahead.

I believe my suggestions would improve exploring engine options rather than continuing circuitous arguments.

You've now moved to label me [and those who know me would be most amused at the label you've tried to apply]. You've done similar behavior earlier in this thread. That is the very behavior that doesn't serve any purpose. That is my point exactly.

Pax,

John