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MOSAIC LSRI course completed

The portal to put in a AWC amendment is very easy. Just select Amend. Then put in your N number and everything comes up. Then click save and next and follow each page. It asks the hrs on your plane, special airworthiness, address of planes location and what fesdo to send the request to. Only takes about 5 mins.
Your fesdo will call and just let them know you want to update your op lims to the new. By that day you will probably have the new AWC and op lims.
 
The portal to put in a AWC amendment is very easy. Just select Amend. Then put in your N number and everything comes up. Then click save and next and follow each page. It asks the hrs on your plane, special airworthiness, address of planes location and what fesdo to send the request to. Only takes about 5 mins.
@torquen did you have to attach any documents to the request?
And do I request Oda, Designee, or None?

Also do I need a recommendation letter from Franz Kafka? :D

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@torquen did you have to attach any documents to the request?
And do I request Oda, Designee, or None?

Also do I need a recommendation letter from Franz Kafka? :D

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I know you did not ask me but I would put in a simple letter explaining the request. I typed up this in a google drive as a new document, saved or downloaded it to my computer as a pdf. Click documents, drop down program letter, etc…

As ironflight explained, choose Oda or designee if you are working with someone, otherwise choose fsdo afterwards.
 
Another update…the FAA will be updating AWC today and they will be adding the button to check #18 as an option for the FSDO. Mine told me that they will wait until this process is complete so the can exactly match how these new ops limits will be done from now on.
 
The document upload is the hardest part. They want everything marked “R” in the 8130.2L Appendix B table B-2 for the “Amended” column.

The rest is simple. At the very end you pick your FSDO region and office and click submit.
I am a little stumped on the part where they want me to list the latest AD numbers that have been complied with.

Any help on determining the numbers I should fill in?
 
I am a little stumped on the part where they want me to list the latest AD numbers that have been complied with.

Any help on determining the numbers I should fill in?
They don’t; want the AD numbers - they want the latest AD Biweekly Report that you checked to see if there are any AD’s (you did check..right?😉)…and let’s not derail this thread anymore by arguing about the need for complying with AD’s. For this purpoe, you go to:

https://drs.faa.gov/reports/ad-biweekly”. Select the “Small Aircraft, Rotorcraft, gliders, Balloons, Airships, and UAS tab, then look at the latest report - put that title into AWS to show that you checked the latest report.

Paul
 
They don’t; want the AD numbers - they want the latest AD Biweekly Report that you checked to see if there are any AD’s (you did check..right?😉)…and let’s not derail this thread anymore by arguing about the need for complying with AD’s. For this purpoe, you go to:

https://drs.faa.gov/reports/ad-biweekly”. Select the “Small Aircraft, Rotorcraft, gliders, Balloons, Airships, and UAS tab, then look at the latest report - put that title into AWS to show that you checked the latest report.

Paul
Thanks Paul, that’s the reference I was looking for.
 
https://drs.faa.gov/reports/ad-biweekly”. Select the “Small Aircraft, Rotorcraft, gliders, Balloons, Airships, and UAS tab, then look at the latest report - put that title into AWS to show that you checked the latest report.
I don't mean to derail the thread, but if I wanted to check ADs for my own sanity, does that mean I need to review each bi-weekly report issued since the last AWC? For my plane it would add up to about 90 of them.
 
I don't mean to derail the thread, but if I wanted to check ADs for my own sanity, does that mean I need to review each bi-weekly report issued since the last AWC? For my plane it would add up to about 90 of them.
You may not want to, but you will derail the thread….please start a new thread about researching the AD’s for the history of your plane (its complicated…..)!
 
@torquen did you have to attach any documents to the request?
And do I request Oda, Designee, or None?

Also do I need a recommendation letter from Franz Kafka? :D

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No I did not have to upload any files. Just select next.
I selected none because I was already in contact with a DAR from my fesdo. I then selected his fesdo and he grabbed it from the cue. If they have no idea why you are contacting them then maybe upload a sheet saying you want the new op lims showing the LSRI.
 
After reading every post on this thread, I have come to the considered conclusion that I’m unclear how a large gov organization can make something so simple, into something so complicated.
It’s just the bureaucratic mindset. It’s a powerful force.

I got an education on this front recently when entering Mexico in a friend’s TBM. The various officials there, from various departments (army, customs, immigration, airport operations, airport management, probably others, I stopped counting) each required a bewildering and unpredictable array of inspections, documents, stamps, walking around the airport to visit the various departments multiple times, etc. They frequently disagreed with *each other*, quite amicably, about procedures and requirements. None of it felt remotely like a shakedown, and everyone was very friendly. From what I can tell, they were just doing their jobs, serving an even bigger bureaucracy, and their jobs simply give them no incentive whatsoever to rationalize or streamline the process. They were incentivized only to get stamped pieces of paper that then went… who knows where. Probably nowhere. The stamped paper was magical.

This op Lim amendment exercise is, obviously, equally pointless. There’s now a reg that says clear as day that an LSRI or LSRM can inspect an EAB. From what I can tell, the language of most op lims doesn’t even expressly prohibit this. But someone concluded this reg requires reaching into the document pockets of every EAB to extract and modify documents that purportedly… must be modified. For some reason. Because to a bureaucracy, paper is magical.

What exactly would cause the wings to fall off if this never happened? Why can’t future regulators, mechanics, etc. simply look at the date of even the contradictory op lims and understand they were written before the reg, and then go on about their day? We are not told, because that question literally never occurs to the FAA. There’s no reason it should. The paper and the process are a sufficient goal.

The key thing is that in a bureaucracy, there usually is zero incentive NOT to do this. There is no incentive to streamline the process. There is no incentive for the right hand of the FAA to talk to the left hand. There is the inevitable interplay with other regs in an ocean of regs, such that now we must first, apparently, review “the latest AD Biweekly Report,” a document that I confess I had never previously heard of. 🤣 What does that have to do with reconciling op lims with the new regs? It doesn’t matter.

We are all at the Mexican airport. Although I note that the Mexican authorities never asked for the latest AD Biweekly Report.

If there’s any good news, it’s that this process expressly requires someone to determine that your plane is airworthy. That adds at least one real person to the liability circus if the worst happens and your estate decides to sue. 🤣
 
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This is a process that just keeps giving, in terms of entertainment value. 🤣
For me that was actually valuable information.
You are doing the condition inspection to determine that the aircraft is in condition for safe operation.
What are ADs? They are issues to address unsafe conditions. You might say they don't apply to experimentals. You're a lawyer. I'd like to see you argue that in a liability suit.
So it was nice to know where to find ADs.

Yes, may be silly for an amended AWC but would you rather have a completely different form and procedures for amending AWCs?

Of course I agree that and a simple directive (or whatever issue type) that declares what point No 18 in 8130.2L now includes would have been much, much better. And I'm sure that tens of FAA inspections in FSDOs would agree. Now, starving DARs might not agree. ;) And that is why I appreciate DAR input in this thread so very much.

Finn
 
The inspector at my FSDO suggested to request a *replacement* AWC through the portal. That will trigger re-issue of the operating limitations incorporating the latest language. He asked to not request amended AWC because it creates a much larger paperwork burden unnecessary in this case.
 
The inspector at my FSDO suggested to request a *replacement* AWC through the portal. That will trigger re-issue of the operating limitations incorporating the latest language. He asked to not request amended AWC because it creates a much larger paperwork burden unnecessary in this case.
Sorry - that is just wrong (by the book - but many folks don’t understand the book….). A “Replacement” will get you the exact same OPs Lims you already have.

The thing to remember is that FSDO inspectors spent 1% (or less) of their working life with Experimental stuff, and just don’t get into that set of rules (or that part of AWC very often) and we are seeing lots of posts of inspectors telling people the wrong things as a result.
 
Sorry - that is just wrong (by the book - but many folks don’t understand the book….). A “Replacement” will get you the exact same OPs Lims you already have.

The thing to remember is that FSDO inspectors spent 1% (or less) of their working life with Experimental stuff, and just don’t get into that set of rules (or that part of AWC very often) and we are seeing lots of posts of inspectors telling people the wrong things as a result.
Paul, you hit the nail on the head with the FSDO guys. At my Big Jet MRO dayjob, I see the local FSDO guys weekly , and most of the inspectors are baffled by the Experimental stuff and the MOSAIC changes, often coming to me for the answers they are unsure of . Honestly, I haven't dove into the MOSAIC in detail myself and hope that soon there will be a simplified "flow chart" if there isn't already one. We all need to be aware that a visit by a FSDO inspector may be frustrating for both sides until this all plays out.
 
Sorry - that is just wrong (by the book - but many folks don’t understand the book….). A “Replacement” will get you the exact same OPs Lims you already have.

I was surprised as well but he reiterated that he must and will update the ops limits when he re-issues the replacement AWC. Who am I to argue with that?

In the worst case I will end up with the same ops limits ans before and will start the process again using the amendment route. I do have time before the next annual to be a guinea pig for this bureaucracy experiment 😬
 
I was surprised as well but he reiterated that he must and will update the ops limits when he re-issues the replacement AWC. Who am I to argue with that?

In the worst case I will end up with the same ops limits ans before and will start the process again using the amendment route. I do have time before the next annual to be a guinea pig for this bureaucracy experiment 😬
If he submits a "replacement" request with "new" Op Lims, Oklahoma City will kick it back.
 
If he submits a "replacement" request with "new" Op Lims, Oklahoma City will kick it back.
I'm sure you are correct. My success rate with advising the government that they are about to trip over their own feet is approximately 0%. So I just have to wait and see what happens next :(
 
I wonder in the amend vs replace

Amend might be if you were just taking part of the op lims out and adding?
Replace is give me the new version? Which would be everything new as given to a new certificate. Expands flight testing, lsrm, etc?

Question only
 
I wonder in the amend vs replace

Amend might be if you were just taking part of the op lims out and adding?
Replace is give me the new version? Which would be everything new as given to a new certificate. Expands flight testing, lsrm, etc?

Question only
No - a “Replacement” is becasue your dog ate it, it blew out of your open cockpit, it got flooded out in an Airventure thunderstorm….that means it is a “replacement”.

If you want to change something, that is an “Amendment”. You want to “change” your Ops Lims.

I believe that Webster’s or the Oxford would agree with those terms…..

This has been asked - and answered - at least a dozen times on the forums…and the answer isn’t going to change from the experts here who do E-AB airworthiness, no matter how many times you continue to ask it.

One last comment - with an extreme example. If I issue you an AWC that is not in accordance with the rules - for instance, I give you the entire United States as a Phase 1 test area - I can type that up, sign it, and hand it to you. But it is not in accordance with the rules, so just because I signed it and you have it doesn’t make it compliant. I’ll lose my Designation, and you have an invalid AWC. The lesson here is that just because some does it the way they think it should be done, the folks who enforce things at OKC will rule it not valid.
 
No - a “Replacement” is becasue your dog ate it, it blew out of your open cockpit, it got flooded out in an Airventure thunderstorm….that means it is a “replacement”.
If you want to change something, that is an “Amendment”. You want to “change” your Ops Lims.
I believe that Webster’s or the Oxford would agree with those terms…..
This has been asked - and answered - at least a dozen times on the forums…and the answer isn’t going to change from the experts here who do E-AB airworthiness, no matter how many times you continue to ask it.
One last comment - with an extreme example. If I issue you an AWC that is not in accordance with the rules - for instance, I give you the entire United States as a Phase 1 test area - I can type that up, sign it, and hand it to you. But it is not in accordance with the rules, so just because I signed it and you have it doesn’t make it compliant. I’ll lose my Designation, and you have an invalid AWC. The lesson here is that just because some does it the way they think it should be done, the folks who enforce things at OKC will rule it not valid.
And just to add to Paul's comments, if an inspector from the FSDO issues something not in compliance, that also will not be valid.
They, also, don't have "free rein"!
 
For me that was actually valuable information.
You are doing the condition inspection to determine that the aircraft is in condition for safe operation.
Right, but we're talking about amending an AWC to change op limits.

True, the order says this necessarily involves a determination by the person issuing the amended AWC that the aircraft is airworthy, which would suggest ADs are relevant, but apparently nobody is particularly bothered by that part. 😬

It's not like there's anybody trying to make me a DAR, for all sorts of excellent reasons, but if I woke up as a DAR tomorrow there is no freaking way I would I ever issue any AWC, amended or otherwise, pursuant to that order. The cross-examination questions practically write themselves. Maybe there's a letter ruling or whatever somewhere addressing this (I've never looked), but yikes-oh-rama otherwise.

What are ADs? They are issues to address unsafe conditions. You might say they don't apply to experimentals.
I don't think I've ever been tempted to say this, and (looking at the issue for the first time) apparently it's complicated. https://www.kitplanes.com/do-ads-apply-to-homebuilts-part-236/

You're a lawyer. I'd like to see you argue that in a liability suit.
I'm not following. I can't understand why I'd argue that in a liability suit, why you'd like to see it, or what point you're making.

Yes, may be silly for an amended AWC but would you rather have a completely different form and procedures for amending AWCs?
It is silly, and yes--at least when we're just making a technical change to an EAB operating limitation.

And that is why I appreciate DAR input in this thread so very much.
Couldn't agree more completely. If you've got to get to the other side of a Mexican airport, it helps to have someone who speaks Spanish. 🤣

I should add that I don't mean to pick on the Mexican government. Every culture has its bureaucratic nightmare. My Ukrainian friend was unimpressed with my story, maintaining that nobody could even hold a candle to the bureaucracy of the former Soviet Union. Also, I've had experiences at the DMV that make Mexican airports look like a Swiss train station.
 
If doing this through your FSDO please be very careful in reviewing the product you receive from them once the AWC and OPs Limits are amended. I found plenty of mistakes in mine and omissions that needed to be corrected on a second draft!
 
No I did not have to upload any files. Just select next.
I selected none because I was already in contact with a DAR from my fesdo. I then selected his fesdo and he grabbed it from the cue. If they have no idea why you are contacting them then maybe upload a sheet saying you want the new op lims showing the LSRI.
As I'm going through this Amended AWC the section for Owner Certification the question.. Is this Certificate Original or Recurrent? Can I get a little help here

Thanks
 
No - a “Replacement” is becasue your dog ate it, it blew out of your open cockpit, it got flooded out in an Airventure thunderstorm….that means it is a “replacement”.
You guys may already know this but I asked my FSDO guy if I would be geting a new Pink AWC in the mail, he said they don't do that anymore that I would get a PDF in an email that I could print and put in the plane. So in the future I guess if "my dog eats it" I could just print another one.
 
You guys may already know this but I asked my FSDO guy if I would be geting a new Pink AWC in the mail, he said they don't do that anymore that I would get a PDF in an email that I could print and put in the plane. So in the future I guess if "my dog eats it" I could just print another one.
Yes that’s correct. I’m printing it on waterproof paper to make it last longer.

Terraslate Paper is my source.
 
Filled out the Amended Airworthiness Certificate request on the AWC Portal on Saturday. The only document that I attached was a simple WORD document requesting an update to include the new item #18 language as shown in 8130.2L appedix D. I got a quick automated "received" email almost immediately. Received a call from the Scottsdale FSDO inspector on Monday AM and we discussed my request. He suggested also changing my Phase1 operating location to my local airport, which he did for me. Received my new AWC and operating limitations via email about 30 minutes after the call. They look correct and per the 8130.2L appendix D language. I am pretty impressed with the service!
 
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So envious. Haven't even gotten the call to schedule appointment with inspector for my repairman cert. FSDOs definitely are different.
 
And just to add to Paul's comments, if an inspector from the FSDO issues something not in compliance, that also will not be valid.
They, also, don't have "free rein"!
Hi Mel and Paul,
I just talked to the local FSDO and they are fine with the LSRI-A I submitted, going to meet with them Wednesday. He went on to say the amended AWC and Ops Lim is another story. According to him the letter of the law says I need a program letter, re inspection bla bla bla... He did say its brand new to them and 50% of the office doesn't think they need all that but 50% says they do because that what it says. Is there anything I can point them to somewhere that will make this easier?

Thanks
 
Hi Mel and Paul,
I just talked to the local FSDO and they are fine with the LSRI-A I submitted, going to meet with them Wednesday. He went on to say the amended AWC and Ops Lim is another story. According to him the letter of the law says I need a program letter, re inspection bla bla bla... He did say its brand new to them and 50% of the office doesn't think they need all that but 50% says they do because that what it says. Is there anything I can point them to somewhere that will make this easier?

Thanks
A program letter has always been required for any issuance of an airworthiness certificate.
 
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So envious. Haven't even gotten the call to schedule appointment with inspector for my repairman cert. FSDOs definitely are different.
Well to be fair, I am also still wating for the call to schedule my appointment for the repairman certificate. The Scottsdale FSDO has a specific link to hit for applying for the repairment certificate. I did that early last week. On Friday last week I got an email telling me they got the request and to expect a call within the next 30 days to make an appointment. Nothing further yet. I mentioned this request on the phone this morning with the gentleman that worked my op limits. He said just keep waiting and they will get to it. I am not in a big hurry so I am feeling good that it will all work out.
 
A program letter has always been required for any issuance of an airworthiness certificate.
I understand the Program Letter is required for the original issuance. I didn't relieve it is required over again for an amended AWC. One of the questions is I maintained a construction log as if I was the original builder which I am not, hence the need for the LSRI-A certificate.

Gary
 
I understand the Program Letter is required for the original issuance. I didn't relieve it is required over again for an amended AWC. One of the questions is I maintained a construction log as if I was the original builder which I am not, hence the need for the LSRI-A certificate.

Gary
Yep, It is!
 
it looks like the Baltimore FSDO is now on board with using amended AWC process as opposed to the "replacement", after I sent an email summarizing some strong advice in this thread :) I don't have the AWC in hand yet but looking promising.

I guess folks not yet scheduled for the course could start on the AWC replacement as there is no dependency other than 8130.2L for this task. Getting the repairman certificate was uneventful...
 
I understand the Program Letter is required for the original issuance. I didn't relieve it is required over again for an amended AWC. One of the questions is I maintained a construction log as if I was the original builder which I am not, hence the need for the LSRI-A certificate.

Gary
The Program Letter is simply the way that you request what it is that you want the FAA to do. The form is very loose - there are examples that you can copy that have more information than needed, but it’s all pretty simple stuff, so just type one up. For an initial AWC, the Progam Letter will be a bit longer, but for a simple Amendment, just tell them what you want amended in a sentence, make sure that you have the aircraft identified, address it to the FSDO, and make sure you put all of your contact Info.

Yes, it can be argued that with the advent of AWC, the Program Letter is a bit redundant. But…it is still a requirement.
 
Hi Mel and Paul,
I just talked to the local FSDO and they are fine with the LSRI-A I submitted, going to meet with them Wednesday. He went on to say the amended AWC and Ops Lim is another story. According to him the letter of the law says I need a program letter, re inspection bla bla bla... He did say its brand new to them and 50% of the office doesn't think they need all that but 50% says they do because that what it says. Is there anything I can point them to somewhere that will make this easier?

Thanks
Yes, point them to 8130.2L, instructions for issuing an amended AWC.
Yes, an FAA inspector could insist on reinspecting the aircraft, etc. but not required.
For a sensible person, given the reason for the amendment (change of oplims, with no change to aircraft itself), just check docs.
 
Thanks everyone. I did supply the simple letter with the AWC application, I guess they want more than what I provided. Really appreciate everyones input and suggestions.

Gary
You can get a suggested sample here, but that is for a new (initial) AWC application: https://www.eaa.org/~/media/files/eaa/homebuilders/program letter to faa-blank.pdf

I still have a burning question for the DARs here: Is there a way for the public to access documents in the FAA Registry?
That would make it easy to get samples.

If not, how about for FAA inspectors?
 
You are over thinking this whole thing. Call and speak to your fsdo person.
My experience calling the IND FSDO today:

I asked specifically about getting amended op lims and about applying for the repairman's certificate.

The answer to both separate questions was "email the FSDO and the appropriate inspector will get back with you". She did not let me speak to anyone.

Anyone else done this through IND?
 
Anyone that has received an amended AWC from their FSDO, did you also get a logbook entry for the AWC change? My FSDO is telling me it’s not required and that I am compliant with the regs yet if you read the regs it says a logbook entry is required.
 
Anyone that has received an amended AWC from their FSDO, did you also get a logbook entry for the AWC change? My FSDO is telling me it’s not required and that I am compliant with the regs yet if you read the regs it says a logbook entry is required.
My amended AWC did NOT come with a logbook entry. I am researching the regs now...
 
My amended AWC did NOT come with a logbook entry. I am researching the regs now...
FAA Order8130.2L, 2-3.h.(3):

(3)Make a maintenance record entry. The following is a satisfactory statement forthe maintenance record entry: “I find that this aircraft meets the requirements for the certificate requested and have issued a [standard airworthiness certificate or special airworthiness certificate for the purpose(s) of (enter purpose) and operating limitations] dated _______. [Signature: John Smith, Aviation Safety Inspector, AIR-883].
 
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