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Loose Fuel Tanks Bolts on QB Wing

Mark Dickens

Mark Dickens

Well Known Member
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So, I was wiring my left wing today and took a look around inside. Lo and behold, three of the AN3 bolts weren't tightened:

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Now before someone tells me that I should go through each step of the instructions, I know that and this is why I was looking around, but one wonders if anyone is watching the quality of the work at the QB factory. They also forgot the snap in bushing in the next rib. Moral of the story, do not trust them to do the job right. Check, check and double check!
 
Holy cow! After what happened to Vans in 2023, I was hoping they would up their QC game.
 
Mark Dickens said:
So, I was wiring my left wing today and took a look around inside. Lo and behold, three of the AN3 bolts weren't tightened:

View attachment 86890

Now before someone tells me that I should go through each step of the instructions, I know that and this is why I was looking around, but one wonders if anyone is watching the quality of the work at the QB factory. They also forgot the snap in bushing in the next rib. Moral of the story, do not trust them to do the job right. Check, check and double check!
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Check, check and double check!

Exactly!! Isn’t that what you are required for you to do? Thanks for pointing that out!! I think too many assume that a QB part is ready to fly, but with an EAB, you are the “builder” even in QB assemblies. Before you sign off your first CI - in conjunction with your initial FAA or DAR final inspection - you are saying you have inspected all of the required subassemblies and have deemed them airworthy, so you are the builder of all these parts and assemblies. It’s all on you, so you’d better make sure that things were done right.
 
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I actually remember in the instructions for my QB -8 (twenty years ago) it explicitly said to check the torque on those bolts because they were NOT factory torqued. I don’t know what the -14 instructions say, but if an old -8 builder was surprised that they were loose, the QC problem was with the builder not checking off all the steps in the instructions….
 
Ironflight said:
I actually remember in teh instructions for my QB -8 (twenty years ago) it explicitly said to check the torque on those bolts because they were NOT factory torqued. I don’t know what the -14 instructions say, but if an old -8 builder was surprised that they were loose, the QC problem was with the builder not checking off all the steps in the instructions…
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My -8 was a standard build (and yes I made sure they were torqued) so I never heard that, but I was talking to a friend today who had a -8 QB and he said his bolts weren't torqued either. Another friend with a -7 QB had the same experience. I mean, WTH? Building a QB after building a SB is kinda scary because you are dependent on the skills of these people at the QB factory.

Paul, I disagree with your assertion about the QC problem being with the builder. Where else can you spend over 30K, have things not right and then blame the buyer. In my case, I literally removed the wing from the crate this afternoon so don't point fingers this way. If Vans is going to sell QB kits, they have an obligation to do it right.
 
I purchased a QB wing and decided that the supplier (located on the other side of the world) should have checked the torque, so I'll forgo that step? DON'T THINK SO......
 
dmattmul said:
I purchased a QB wing and decided that the supplier (located on the other side of the world) should have checked the torque, so I'll forgo that step? DON'T THINK SO......
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How about just screwing it in far enough to check the torque?
 
Mark Dickens said:
My -8 was a standard build (and yes I made sure they were torqued) so I never heard that, but I was talking to a friend today who had a -8 QB and he said his bolts weren't torqued either. Another friend with a -7 QB had the same experience. I mean, WTH? Building a QB after building a SB is kinda scary because you are dependent on the skills of these people at the QB factory.

Paul, I disagree with your assertion about the QC problem being with the builder. Where else can you spend over 30K, have things not right and then blame the buyer. In my case, I literally removed the wing from the crate this afternoon so don't point fingers this way. If Vans is going to sell QB kits, they have an obligation to do it right.
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QB Kit assemblies are ONLY A TIME SAVING AIDE - In no way are they to be considered ready to use as-is....
 
AZSteve053 said:
QB Kit assemblies are ONLY A TIME SAVING AIDE - In no way are they to be considered ready to use as-is....
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You are correct, but I believe there is an obligation on the part of Vans to do it right and to check their work. The point of my post was not to cast aspersions on Vans (although everyone seems very sensitive to that), it was to point out what I found and to encourage anyone buying a QB to really check it over.
 
When my QB wing was delivered in 2008 I found that they had used one size too long bolts to attach the fuel tanks. (I presume they ran out of the proper size). Not too hard to spot- every bolt head had 3 washers under it!
 
bertschb said:
If I bought a QB kit, I would expect ZERO errors. Why would I pay extra to have somebody make a mistake when I can do them myself for free.
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I’m afraid that you missed my point, probably because I wasn’t clear enough. As I said, I haven’t read the -14 instructions - perhaps they tell you explicitly that “all bolts installed when you receives the kit have been torqued and do not need to be checked” If that is the case, then clearly Van’s QC department screwed up. But for decades, Van’s instructions for QB kits said “start at the beginning of the instruction manual and check that all steps were completed along the way” - the builder was responsible for making sure it was built properly.

The problem is with differing expectations. Us old timers aren’t necessarily right, but we are wary enough to check everything as we build our airplanes - because we were taught to be that way.
 
Halleffect said:
The plans have you remove both tanks for leak testing so they did you a favor!
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This is what I recall on my QB RV-8 wings. The bolts are left very visibly loose so that any glance down the inside of the wing will show you that they need to be looked at. IIRC, the screws holding the tanks on were also not tightened. I think the Van's QC team got this one right.
 
rv8ch said:
This is what I recall on my QB RV-8 wings. The bolts are left very visibly loose so that any glance down the inside of the wing will show you that they need to be looked at. IIRC, the screws holding the tanks on were also not tightened. I think the Van's QC team got this one right.
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Since all of the bolts were tightened properly on the other wing, Vans must have screwed up again. You can't have it both ways
 
Ironflight said:
I’m afraid that you missed my point, probably because I wasn’t clear enough. As I said, I haven’t read the -14 instructions - perhaps they tell you explicitly that “all bolts installed when you receives the kit have been torqued and do not need to be checked” If that is the case, then clearly Van’s QC department screwed up. But for decades, Van’s instructions for QB kits said “start at the beginning of the instruction manual and check that all steps were completed along the way” - the builder was responsible for making sure it was built properly.

The problem is with differing expectations. Us old timers aren’t necessarily right, but we are wary enough to check everything as we build our airplanes - because we were taught to be that way.
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When I received my QB RV-14 wing kit there was specific instructions to torque fuel tank bolts. They also did not have any torque paint on them.
 
Im with Mark on this one. If they were tightened on one wing and not the other, maybe the QB guys should check the instructions better to make sure they did everything or visually mark and include a list of things to check. How about some blue or red tape on items not completed? Every article about doing inspections suggest not leaving bolts partially tightened and unmarked. I havent seen the instructions for any of the QB wings but Im sure they say - check everything. I dont think that is good enough. The safest thing would be to specify things that were undone.
 
I slow built mine, so I can't comment on your or other QB situations.
I know that if I ordered a QB part, despite paying to save time and effort, I would inspect every rivet, screw and bolt for peace of mind.
It's my a** and those of my passengers that are later in the airplane.
Good on you that you spotted the loose bolts.

Here are a few questions:
1- What does your build manual say concerning the QB wings ?
2- Did you bring this up with Van's, and if so, what was their reply?
 
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I have 14 QB wings that I also got recently. Correct that the 14 manual still says to check, and I'm going through every step in the plans and double checking. Nothing major, a missing snap bushing here and there, a few items to drill or countersink (and still accessible), but I double check all bolt torques. So while I believe the OP's wing was missed (mine were not loose like that, but I also haven't torqued because I still need to remove and put in the senders and test), I also don't believe this is a major issue.

I had greater concerns with the ribs and the lack of impression on stiffeners, but finally got Vans to write to me that the minimum spec is zero, so I can build on. I think they need to put out a SB or SL on that (besides the one pager that doesn't give the spec) so we'll see.

I also will say, primer and rivet quality is great, I have found no rivets that are even slightly questionable, and nothing major has been found with my QC check that isn't a small add to my worklist at this point. Only major thing I'm concerned with is tank leaks, so I'll get to that check soon.
 
Ironflight said:
I’m afraid that you missed my point, probably because I wasn’t clear enough. As I said, I haven’t read the -14 instructions - perhaps they tell you explicitly that “all bolts installed when you receives the kit have been torqued and do not need to be checked” If that is the case, then clearly Van’s QC department screwed up. But for decades, Van’s instructions for QB kits said “start at the beginning of the instruction manual and check that all steps were completed along the way” - the builder was responsible for making sure it was built properly.

The problem is with differing expectations. Us old timers aren’t necessarily right, but we are wary enough to check everything as we build our airplanes - because we were taught to be that way.
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I think we both missed each other's points :-)

I'm not suggesting that we assume a quick build assembly was done properly and move on. Far from it!!!! I would assume the opposite because I don't trust other people's work. I have enough problems with my own. If I bought a QB assembly, I would go through every step in the plans multiple times (just as I do with my own SB) and check every nut, bolt, rivet, etc.

My point was that some of the fuel tanks bolts were tight and some were loose. Regardless of whether or not they were supposed to be torqued, that appears to be a QC issue. They all should be done the same way (all snug, all loose, all torqued, etc). If I was inspecting a QB wing and saw 60 bolts snug and 3 loose, I would wonder what was going on just as the OP did.
 
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Maybe there is another way to look at this, if it has torqued markings and it is still lose then it is a QC issue. If it does not have any torque markings, it needs to be taken that it was not torqued. The tightness of some of the bolts and looseness of some others is not an indication and rather subject. How are we going to prove to anyone that some of the bolts are tight but some are not , if we can not give a consistent value for tightness.
If it had a marking and not to the torque spec. then you had a legitimate complaint/rant, else is just a normal rant.
 
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I have QB wings. I was removing the bolts holding the aileron bell crank brackets in order to install the SkyDesigns roller bearing version. One of the four bolts would not come out. Turns out, the bolt threads and nut plate holes were stripped, completely.

When I emailed Vans tech support to report the issue, they seemed unimpressed and said all the bolts should be checked for torque.

Of course they should checked but this particular bolt went through the correct torque, rapidly, in my opinion. Perhaps with the aid of a power tool?

Fixing it was a bit of a pain as the nut plates were riveted to the tie down extrusion which was then riveted to the spar. That extrusion had to be removed to replace the nut plate.
 

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Phil Sprang said:
I have QB wings. I was removing the bolts holding the aileron bell crank brackets in order to install the SkyDesigns roller bearing version. One of the four bolts would not come out. Turns out, the bolt threads and nut plate holes were stripped, completely.

When I emailed Vans tech support to report the issue, they seemed unimpressed and said all the bolts should be checked for torque.

Of course they should checked but this particular bolt went through the correct torque, rapidly, in my opinion. Perhaps with the aid of a power tool?

Fixing it was a bit of a pain as the nut plates were riveted to the tie down extrusion which was then riveted to the spar. That extrusion had to be removed to replace the nut plate.
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Now THAT is a QC fail!
 
Phil Sprang said:
I have QB wings. I was removing the bolts holding the aileron bell crank brackets in order to install the SkyDesigns roller bearing version. One of the four bolts would not come out. Turns out, the bolt threads and nut plate holes were stripped, completely.

When I emailed Vans tech support to report the issue, they seemed unimpressed and said all the bolts should be checked for torque.

Of course they should checked but this particular bolt went through the correct torque, rapidly, in my opinion. Perhaps with the aid of a power tool?

Fixing it was a bit of a pain as the nut plates were riveted to the tie down extrusion which was then riveted to the spar. That extrusion had to be removed to replace the nut plate.
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Similar/same problem on mine delivered 2021. What a mess. I tried to forget about it. The sheet metal work was perfect. Better than I could do. Everything with a screw fastener was a disaster.
 

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Phil Sprang said:
"When I emailed Vans tech support to report the issue, they seemed unimpressed and said all the bolts should be checked for torque."
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So sad when they act like this. Just a CYA response with no follow up. Makes me wonder what kind (if any) supervision is on the ground in the Philippines.
 
This is a timely thread! I'm doing the CI now and discovered at least 6 fuel tank bolts in the right wing (slow build) that are making their way out. They are still "finger tight" but obviously not in a good state.

They were in place during the prebuy inspection last August, and assuming the previous 4 years that this 9A was flying. I don't have any theory of what made them decide to come out during the last 50 hours (it could be my landings 😬 ).

When tightening to the specified torque (28 in-lbs?) it feels more force than I'd be comfortable with for a nutplate bolt. The ones further away from the inspection panel are not so easy to get to especially with a torque wrench..

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ve0kog said:
This is a timely thread! I'm doing the CI now and discovered at least 6 fuel tank bolts in the right wing (slow build) that are making their way out. They are still "finger tight" but obviously not in a good state.

They were in place during the prebuy inspection last August, and assuming the previous 4 years that this 9A was flying. I don't have any theory of what made them decide to come out during the last 50 hours (it could be my landings 😬 ).

When tightening to the specified torque (28 in-lbs?) it feels more force than I'd be comfortable with for a nutplate bolt. The ones further away from the inspection panel are not so easy to get to especially with a torque wrench..

View attachment 86967
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Makes me wonder if the original builder "seasoned" the plate nuts by running a 10-32 tap through them That destroys the locking ability of the plate nut and could result in this through vibration. The bad news is that you can't replace the plate nuts (easily anyway). In this case, I'd think about using some loctite on the threads
 
bertschb said:
Why would I pay extra to have somebody make a mistake when I can do them myself for free.
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This is the same logic that, all those years ago, got me to stop taking my car to Fast Eddie's Quick Lube joint and learn how to maintain it myself!
 
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