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Letter of Denial by DAR - yikes!

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yea, ...

Where are you getting that info from?
Was from a certified engine shop, just what they would require if handed a 0320 E2D, (my Engine from an E-AB) - that also added- "How de we protect our bottom unless we look at all the parts to make sure that the engine is what the data plate says it is with an E-AB history".....We didn't get into specifics on paper trails and etc. YMMV
 
Ah, then ever-ending debate of AD's applicability to Experimentals. It ranks right up there with Peace in the Middle East! Seriously, there is a lot of confusion on this topic, Everywhere, as indicated by this forum. Everyone can make a lot of arguments either way, and swing the pendulum to the ludicrous limits to prove their point. Here is what I think the gotcha is: someone has to sign of the aircraft for the initial enspection, and every year thereafter with the statement that says the aircraft is in a conditiion for safe operation. The problem arises when/if there is a problem, and someone gets hurt, or the insurance company is involved, or the FAA gets involved due to an incident/accident scenario. I would not want to be arguing with anyone that an AD which was issued because someone (FAA) thought it adverseluy affected the dafe operation of other aircraft, yet in my infinite wisdom I thought it wouldn't apply to my aircraft because mine is so different. Seriously, I don't think any jusry would buy it, nor probably any Inspector. And especially if the cause of the incident happened to be the very part the AD was issued against. As I hear a lot of folks say down here in Goegia: "that dog don't hunt. "
There is a box on the 8130 Application for Airwothiness that is checked to verify that we have checked the bi-weekly AD list for applicable AD's. As a DAR, I take the person's word for it that they have complied. And I will check for compliance with Van's service bulletins.

vic
 
Hey Vic,
I just looked up that form online, and I know I have never checked that box on any of my applications. I have always dealt with only the FAA here in Cincinnati.
Best regards,
 
My mechanic insisted

On checking all the engine ADs before signing off the annual condition inspection. He dug through all the details and made up a compliance sheet to keep with the records.

I was afraid of what he would find and also silently wondered how ADs could be mandated on an experimental engine. Luckily, they were all ok.

I wasn't sure it was a legal requirement, but I think it is mostly good sense. Alternatively I could investigate the reasons behind each AD and prove to myself that there was a good reason I didn't need it :(

Bottom line is that he was the guy signing it off, and there was no way he was going to unless the ADs were up to date. That was ok with me.

He did the work in my hanger (I guess I did most of it), cooperated with my schedule, and didn't stick it to me on the cost. I think its the start of a good long term relationship.
 
This has been very informative. As a learning IA these discussions help me. I have heard of experimental aircraft getting more time in phase one for non certified prop and engine pairings. Are AD compliance lists asked for during FSDO conducted inspections? I have heard in passing that if you wanted to keep your engine to certificated standard you would get less time in phase one. My last question is, if you buy a new certificated engine from Van's you have to do AD's, but if you buy one of the XP engines, you will never have to? So what designates the engine as being applicable for an AD? And who can change that designation?
 
alternative engines

Just install a Rotary or a Subaru and then you won't have to comply with any ADs! :D
 
DAR

I had the same DAR inspect my aircraft and he failed me the first time. He failed me because my airplane was not in CG sitting empty on the hangar floor. I don't know where he came up with this idea. He was very big on AD compliance with me also. I tried to tell him this was an experimental aircraft. The only thing I can think of is if you want the 25 hour fly off for a certified engine and prop combination, then the AD's have to be complied with. By the way, there is no requirement for an aircraft to be in CG empty on the hangar floor. It has to be in CG for flight. My aircraft won the Bronze Lindy at Oshkosh and Reserve Grand Champion at Sun-N-Fun.
 
Just install a Rotary or a Subaru and then you won't have to comply with any ADs! :D

Ha!

You're right, you don't have to comply but my DAR wanted a search and a copy of the paper work it turned up. So, I had some paper showing a search and no results for the Subaru.

We live in a world of sometimes dysfunctional, boarder line insane rules....cover your butt is the name of the game.
 
Jon, regarding the AD complinace check, perhpas your FSDO is different. Our Atlanta MIDO requires that the date of the last bi-weekly AD notice be entered. No big deal.

Vic
 
Jon, regarding the AD complinace check, perhpas your FSDO is different. Our Atlanta MIDO requires that the date of the last bi-weekly AD notice be entered. No big deal.

Vic
Yup, that is all my FSDO required. I checked to make sure none of the expensive AD's applied to the parts (i.e. crank shaft) used in the build up of my engine before I bought the engine.
 
Do engines retain their TC when installed on an EAB? - No

Do AD?s apply to engines without a TC? - No

Is there any requirement to remove identification markings from parts no longer in compliance with a TC? - No

Do AD?s apply to engines of an unknown configuration or model? ? No

Therefore, do AD?s apply to EAB aircraft?

...Why is there any debate?
 
Do engines retain their TC when installed on an EAB? - No

Do AD’s apply to engines without a TC? - No

Is there any requirement to remove identification markings from parts no longer in compliance with a TC? - No

Do AD’s apply to engines of an unknown configuration or model? – No

Therefore, do AD’s apply to EAB aircraft?

...Why is there any debate?

Read FAR 39.3. There's no applicability section. They can make AD's for toilet seats if they want to. TC of the part is irrelevant.

FAA's definition of an "appliance": Any instrument, equipment, mechanism, part, apparatus, appurtenance, or accessory, including communications equipment that is used or intended to be used in operating or controlling an aircraft in flight and is installed in or attached to the aircraft.
 
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What reg states that something loses it's TC when installed on a EAB?


http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/airworthiness_certification/sp_awcert/experiment/

"A special airworthiness certificate in the experimental category is issued to operate an aircraft that does not have a type certificate or does not conform to its type certificate..."


Haven't found a reg, but the Feds clearly show an Experimental, by default, does not comply with a TC - ergo, "Experimental" and "Type Certificate" are mutually exclusive terms.

In other words, the Experimental certification "poisons" (for lack of a better word) the whole machine. I know people have been busted for removing a "certified" engine from an experimental and hanging it back on the production airframe from where it came; because they did not take the steps required to correctly "recertify" the engine to ensure it complied with its TC.
 
Read FAR 39.3. There's no applicability section. They can make AD's for toilet seats if they want to. TC of the part is irrelevant...

The TC is extremely relevant! The TC is THE vehicle for configuration control of an aircraft. Without a TC, there is no means to determine a "standard" configuration.

If you carve your own propeller, can they issue an AD against that propeller? Why or why not?

Is it legal to install such a propeller on your EAB? Why or why not?

Is it legal to install the same propeller on an aircraft with a TC without affecting it's TC? Why or why not?

Determining AD applicability for EAB is like demanding your Constitutional rights if arrested in Mexico... It's a whole different set of rules.
 
Due Diligence

Ha!

You're right, you don't have to comply but my DAR wanted a search and a copy of the paper work it turned up. So, I had some paper showing a search and no results for the Subaru.

We live in a world of sometimes dysfunctional, boarder line insane rules....cover your butt is the name of the game.

David,
Actually, you should have checked to see if there were any TSBs [Technical Service Bulletins] or recalls from Subaru on your engine and any other parts you used. Any mechanic with AllData or Mitchell On Demand could check that stuff.
Charlie Kuss
 
What reg states that something loses it's TC when installed on a EAB?

I don't think you'll find one, it comes from the process involved. The TC data plate on an engine (or any other certified component) says only that it conformed to a government-approved design the day the data plate was applied to it.

Having a Standard airworthiness certificate means that the aircraft is maintained so that it conforms with its applicable type designs (FAR 21.183). If it isn't, those components may still be TC'd, but the aircraft would be legally unairworthy.

My $0.02 based on several years in the FAA aircraft cert world...
 
The TC is extremely relevant! The TC is THE vehicle for configuration control of an aircraft. Without a TC, there is no means to determine a "standard" configuration.

If you carve your own propeller, can they issue an AD against that propeller? Why or why not?

Is it legal to install such a propeller on your EAB? Why or why not?

Is it legal to install the same propeller on an aircraft with a TC without affecting it's TC? Why or why not?

Determining AD applicability for EAB is like demanding your Constitutional rights if arrested in Mexico... It's a whole different set of rules.

There is no mention of type certificates in FAR 39. Yes they in theory could issue an AD against your carved propeller, as it says in FAR 39.3. Likelihood? Infinitely small chance. My point is, whether a part is TCed or not is irrelevant.

If you want to argue further, please cite the FAR that supports your position. Again, read FAR 39 and tell me where it is spelled out that a TC is required to issue an AD.
 
The money statement in previous citation is:

"Some aircraft
owners and operators mistakenly assume that AD's do not apply to aircraft with other than
standard airworthiness certificates, i.e., special airworthiness certificates in the restricted, limited,
or experimental category. Unless specifically stated, AD's apply to the make and model set forth
in the applicability statement regardless of the classification or category of the airworthiness
certificate issued for the aircraft."

That 'bout settles it in my mind....
 
When have you ever seen an AD where the subject "Make" was a VAN's aircraft and the "Model" was any RV model?

If they did issue one, it would apply. Doubt you will ever see one though...
 
When have you ever seen an AD where the subject "Make" was a VAN's aircraft and the "Model" was any RV model?

If they did issue one, it would apply. Doubt you will ever see one though...

Now, if they issue an AD (which they often do) against a Lycoming O360-A1A....and site serial numbers that are relevant, I can see how the paragraphs cited above apply. I doubt, however, that you will see an AD against a Mattituck TMX-O360.......possible, but unlikely.

That, however, is a bit of a pedantic argument - I still think that it is important to evaluate the INFORMATION in AD's and Service bulletins to see if there is something lurking in my engine or airframe that was discovered the hard way by some unfortunate soul.... (The ECI Cylinder bulletin, for instance, is something I inspected for very carefully...)

Paul
 
Make and Model

also apply to the Part, not the Aircraft. Read the paragraphs before #8. ie. Precision Airmotive MA4-5 carb, serial #xxxx - yyyyy. An AD on this Part, if installed on your aircraft would apply. So if your experimental engine is built completely with certified parts, and an AD comes out on a certfied part #, it applies.
 
There is, after all, a certain logic to the AD regs it would seem.

If the FAA deems to issue an AD on an item it is basically saying "we know that this device is unsafe for flight in our considered opinion unless fixed thus and so".

Having taken that step it would be beyond pale the then say "but its OK to use this thing in an unsafe condition as long as your aircraft is registered experimental".

Now the odds are miniscule that the FAA will ever issue an AD on a Van's Aircraft RV-8 as, in their eyes, such a thing does not exist. There are hundreds of RV-8s but each is its own independent manufacturing entity in the eyes of the FAA.

As for things like Corvette Engine conversions - unlikely FAA will issue an AD for those for similar reasons but, based on my reading of the FARs, they could if they wanted to.

Other than the obvious reason that complying with ADs makes sense your heirs might appreciate it if the insurance company actually paid out instead of denying a claim since the aircraft was being operating in an unairworthy condition - experimental or not.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong.
If I remove my stock carb, dissasemble it, enlarge the main jet, reassemble and install, it is no longer a stock carb and is not applicable to any ADs.
 
If it came with the engine, it's "the" stock carb, weather "it's" stock or not. Not "a" stock carb. Umm. Yeah. I think that's right.
 
this doc should settle it.

Not really.... The EAA references documents that are dated after this AC doc where the FAA contradicts themselves and state that they don't apply.

Does not really matter to me because my craft has all AD's complied with and if a new one comes up, most likely I would comply with it if I felt it was justified.

The EAA is currently pressing hard for an absolute resolution to this matter so I guess we will have to wait and see what comes out of that for a ruling.

Here are their arguments for why they make the stand that AD's do not apply to Experimentals:

A. “AD‟s and safety directives are not applicable to amateur-built aircraft or light-sport aircraft for which the FAA has issued an experimental certificate under §21.191; ultralights and hang gliders not having airworthiness certificates; and components or products installed on such aircraft,”

B. Reason:

i. In accordance with §21.191 experimental amateur-built and experimental light-sport aircraft are non-TC‟d aircraft. Per §103.1(c) and §103.7 ultralight aircraft, including hang gliders, do not have any U.S. or foreign airworthiness certificate.

ii. In the final rule Certification of Aircraft and Airmen for the Operation of Light-Sport Aircraft (FAA-2001-11133, effective September 1, 2004), Section IV Comparative Tables, Light-Sport Aircraft Maintenance and Certification Requirements, the FAA clearly established that ADs and safety directives were not applicable to experimental light-sport and amateur-built aircraft.
P.O. BOX 3086 OSHKOSH, WI 54903-3086 • Tel 920.426.4800 • Fax 920.426.6560 • WWW.EAA.ORG
Elizabeth Bumann EAA Comments to Draft Airworthiness Directives (AD) Manual, FAA-IR-M-8040.1C January 14, 2009 Page 2

iii. 14 CFR part 43.1b: “This part does not apply to any aircraft for which the FAA has issued an experimental certificate, unless the FAA has previously issued a different kind of airworthiness certificate for that aircraft.” All AD and safety directives must be accomplished by using Part 43 guidance (how it will be applied, who can do the work, what standard will be used, and how it will be recorded), and since Part 43 does not apply to these aircraft, ADs and safety directives therefore also do not apply.

iv. Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin No. ACE-97-04, dated May 29, 1997: “Under current certification requirements, an aircraft with an experimental certificate is not considered to have an approved „type design.‟ This means that an aircraft with an experimental certificate is not required to comply with Airworthiness Directives.”

v. FAA letter, Applicability of an AD against a type certificated article installed on an amateur-built aircraft, dated September 5, 2000, Mr. James Jones, Manager Aircraft Engineering Division: “Because an amateur-built aircraft has no required airworthiness standards, an „off-the-shelf‟ type certificated article, such as an engine, may be installed on it without regard to the limitations derived in type certification that are essential to safety. This, of course, is the installer‟s choice. The intent of type certification of the article is nullified by the lack of an installation approval because the level of safety defined by the type certificate no longer remains validated for the article.”

vi. Report to the Aircraft Certification Management Team, Airworthiness Directive Applicability Team, April 28-30, 1998: “A type design can exist only with a type certificate, and only after a showing of compliance with applicable requirements and approval by the FAA. A non-TC‟d aircraft cannot have a type design. „Type design‟ as defined in §21.31 is the intent of Part 21.” And, “The wording of the rules shows clearly that in writing the rules, FAA had no intention of issuing AD‟s for non-TC‟d aircraft. §39.1 requires that the aircraft have a type design as defined in §21.31. A non-TC‟d aircraft has no type design. §21.31 requires that the TC holder report product safety problems to the FAA, and §21.99 requires that the TC holder prepare corrective fixes. A non-TC‟d aircraft has no TC holder. There is no credible interpretation of existing rules that implies FAA ever intended to issue AD‟s against non-TC‟d aircraft.”
 
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So, in the case that we might HAVE to comply with an AD, I still presume the holder of the repairman's certificate can do the work as opposed to it having to be done by a licensed A&P/IA? I mean, if certain DARs or FSDOs feel that ADs apply to experimentals, then some of them might also come to believe that only an A&P/IA can sign off the work.
 
To those in the "AD's apply camp"...

...Let's play "what if" -

What if a PN#12300 crankshaft has an AD against it IF the unit is installed in a O-320-A1A engine, but it does NOT apply if it is in a -A1B. The O-320 engine in your airplane has an Ellison TB and electronic ignition, rendering the original "model" designation and performance characteristics invalid. Can the PN#12300 crankshaft be used in your engine? Why or why not.

What if an oil sump PN 34500 has an AD against it because the stud bosses crack causing the carb to fall off. If you intend to fabricate your own cold air induction system and simply weld the bottom of the pan closed, is the modified PN#34500 oil sump OK to use on your airplane? Would the Administrator accept this "repair" as an acceptable alternate method of AD compliance? Why or why not?

AD applicability to TC data is easy and black and white; attempting to apply these same standards to aircraft that are by their very definition "nonstandard" is a very slippery slope indeed.

Sure would be nice if the feds could make up their mind one way or the other.
 
Yep, interesting how far things could go if we let everyone make up their own rules hu?

That's the point exactly! There are an awful lot of wives tales, urban legends and "I heard" information that gets repeated by people who think they know what they are talking about enough times that they start believing it's the law...when in fact it's not (or visa versa). I'm not going to argue a position either way here because I know the regs pretty well since I live and breath this stuff every day running my own certified shop and coming from the world of FAA maintenance regulatory compliance for many heavy iron operators around the globe in a past life. I know what I have to do in my own business to be legal....and I do what I need to do with my own airplane to make it as legal as well.

We all love our freedoms with experimentals, but sometimes to a fault. Many people make assumptions based on facts that aren't really facts. "Continued Airworthiness" is something that applies to all of us....how you argue or interpret the bits and bytes is up to you.

What makes this harder is FAA personnel with differing interpretations of rules, along with our own interpretations that start making things "gray" areas. It's how we choose to deal with these things that will ultimately affect this entire market and our sport aircraft. Strangely enough, some people are also held to different standards by the FAA. Anyway, I could ramble on about this for some time, but suffice to say it's been an interesting read!

No flames intended to anyone in particular in this thread, some statements and posts have been brilliant and spot on. Some have been frankly dumb.

My 2 cents as usual!

Cheers,
Stein

PS...Michael...the PA22 is a fantastic airplane. Please tell me you're not working on the one I saw down at Blakesburg last month with the extra wing tacked on it?!? :)
 
none of this

really matters until an incident occurs. You could have AD's against every part in your airplane, who is going to check it?

However, IF your engine quits and you crash in a field and there is an AD against the camshaft in your engine, do you think the insurance company is going to pay the claim? Why or Why not?
 
really matters until an incident occurs.

You can get ramp checked, and you can get a nice letter in the mail that says you have seven days to prove to the FAA that all AD's are in compliance.

One other thing that most pilots aren't aware of. The PIC of an aircraft can be held responsible, if for example after a ramp check and subsequent investigation, it is found that AD's aren't in compliance on said a/c. 39.9 is very specific on this. On one of the airplanes I maintain, any time the examiner uses the airplane he always asks for the logs and has the bi-weekly AD listing printed out and compares them.

Bottom line: the language in FAR 39 clearly doesn't spell out any exemptions, and on its own merit can be easily used in an enforcement action against you, regardless of an aircraft being experimental.
 
To those in the "AD's apply camp"...

...Let's play "what if" -

What if a PN#12300 crankshaft has an AD against it IF the unit is installed in a O-320-A1A engine, but it does NOT apply if it is in a -A1B. The O-320 engine in your airplane has an Ellison TB and electronic ignition, rendering the original "model" designation and performance characteristics invalid. Can the PN#12300 crankshaft be used in your engine? Why or why not.

What if an oil sump PN 34500 has an AD against it because the stud bosses crack causing the carb to fall off. If you intend to fabricate your own cold air induction system and simply weld the bottom of the pan closed, is the modified PN#34500 oil sump OK to use on your airplane? Would the Administrator accept this "repair" as an acceptable alternate method of AD compliance? Why or why not?

AD applicability to TC data is easy and black and white; attempting to apply these same standards to aircraft that are by their very definition "nonstandard" is a very slippery slope indeed.

Sure would be nice if the feds could make up their mind one way or the other.

I asked very similar questions a year or two ago to a DAR friend of mine, who is frequently used by the FAA as an expert witness in court cases. He told me, that until you send in your dataplate to Lycoming ("surrender" was the term he used), and they remove the serial numbers of the case and crank off their list of A1A engines, it is still an A1A. All the FAA would have to do to prove your engine is an A1A is look at the serial numbers. And I asked a question nearly the same as your second one. If your modification is not in the AD's AMOC list (alternate means of compliance), it is considered as being not in compliance with the AD.

Much as I would like AD's to not apply to us, whenever I've asked the experts, they were very clear on their answers.
 
really matters until an incident occurs. You could have AD's against every part in your airplane, who is going to check it?

However, IF your engine quits and you crash in a field and there is an AD against the camshaft in your engine, do you think the insurance company is going to pay the claim? Why or Why not?

Yes, the insurance company would pay after a court battle. Why? Because the FAA would be unable to prove that AD's apply to aircraft or components that are not subject to configuration control (TC, STC, PMA, etc).

Now, do you care to answer my earlier ?what if? questions?
 
I asked very similar questions a year or two ago to a DAR friend of mine, who is frequently used by the FAA as an expert witness in court cases. He told me, that until you send in your dataplate to Lycoming ("surrender" was the term he used), and they remove the serial numbers of the case and crank off their list of A1A engines, it is still an A1A. All the FAA would have to do to prove your engine is an A1A is look at the serial numbers. And I asked a question nearly the same as your second one. If your modification is not in the AD's AMOC list (alternate means of compliance), it is considered as being not in compliance with the AD.

Much as I would like AD's to not apply to us, whenever I've asked the experts, they were very clear on their answers.


So, you DAR recommends obliterating the evidence of origin as a means of compliance. Doesn't this strike you as dishonest? After all, the component was still manufactured by Lyc (or whomever), so removal of identification does not alter the part in any practical sense. Does this make any sense at all? The Feds are OK with anything as long as the "evidence" is removed? Sorry, that does not pass the giggle test. BTW, do the core engine components assembled by various engine rebuilders always go back to their original serial number/model designation? I highly doubt it. If so, that means there are a whole lot of "illegal" engines out there, both on factory built and EAB aircraft.

However, if you and the DAR are right, that opens up ANOTHER can of worms: What about modified parts that are intentionally out of "servicable" limits? Like running cylinders very loose to reduce friction and account for higher than normal expansion, such as some of the Formula 1 guys do. They use way oversized "unservicable" cylinders to account for the 4500 RPM they turn. Is that OK?
 
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Yes, the insurance company would pay after a court battle. Why? Because the FAA would be unable to prove that AD's apply to aircraft or components that are not subject to configuration control (TC, STC, PMA, etc).

Now, do you care to answer my earlier ?what if? questions?

Did you read this post and this AD that specifically names this ECI part #?

Engine Components, Inc. (ECi) cylinder assemblies, part number (P/N) AEL65102 series ``Titan'', installed

For information, the Lycoming Engines (formerly Textron Lycoming) models 320, 360, and 540 series, ``Parallel Valve'', reciprocating engines are installed on, but not limited to, the aircraft listed in the following Table 2:

IO-360-M1B Vans Aircraft: RV6, RV7, RV8

This is directly from the AD.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/list/2008-19-05?OpenDocument

Do you think it still doesn't apply?
 
Entropy

This thread is beginning to remind me of the thermodynamic term "Entropy." I think we've reached the point of "agreeing to disagree." Is there progress being made here in this discussion?

Here are some definitions of "entropy" from "TheFreeDictionary.com"

1. Symbol S For a closed thermodynamic system, a quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work.
2. A measure of the disorder or randomness in a closed system.
3. A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message.
4. The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity.
5. Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society.

I had a boss several years ago who had a habit of coming out of a meeting and declaring "This is nothing but a bunch of entropy - a whole lot of energy being expended with no net work being done!!!"
 
So, you DAR recommends obliterating the evidence of origin as a means of compliance...


I think you have added your own interpretations, maybe out of your own agenda,
which is not the spirit of his post.


.
 
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So, you DAR recommends obliterating the evidence of origin as a means of compliance. Doesn't this strike you as dishonest? After all, the component was still manufactured by Lyc (or whomever), so removal of identification does not alter the part in any practical sense. Does this make any sense at all? The Feds are OK with anything as long as the "evidence" is removed? Sorry, that does not pass the giggle test.

However, if you and the DAR are right, that opens up ANOTHER can of worms: What about modified parts that are intentionally out of "servicable" limits? Like running cylinders very loose to reduce friction and account for higher than normal expansion, such as some of the Formula 1 guys do. They use way oversized "unservicable" cylinders to account for the 4500 RPM they turn. Is that OK?

No what he said was unless Lycoming issues you a new dataplate, (and obviously you have to turn one in to get a new one from them) it is still on the books as the original part/model #. Until it is removed from their books as the original model, it still is that model. There is nothing dishonest implied, in fact, the opposite.

Regarding your second question, if there is no AD which states that an oversize bore cylinder has to be replaced, then you're ok.

Tell ya what: when you fly your PA-22 homebuilt, would you be willing to have an FSDO inspector come over and would you be willing to show him any AD's you are intentionally not in compliance with?
 
Did you read this post and this AD that specifically names this ECI part #?

Engine Components, Inc. (ECi) cylinder assemblies, part number (P/N) AEL65102 series ``Titan'', installed

For information, the Lycoming Engines (formerly Textron Lycoming) models 320, 360, and 540 series, ``Parallel Valve'', reciprocating engines are installed on, but not limited to, the aircraft listed in the following Table 2:

IO-360-M1B Vans Aircraft: RV6, RV7, RV8

This is directly from the AD.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/list/2008-19-05?OpenDocument

Do you think it still doesn't apply?


First, I don't know if it applies, and neither does the FAA or EAA, apparently. I DO know that configuration control is an all or nothing concept, and the very essence of EAB defies any attempt at configuration control. Perhaps that is why the feds can't seem to get their story straight? They are trying to apply a governing concept to something that simply can't be governed.

Second, Van is not an aircraft manufacturer. This AD must only appy to the handful of airplanes built by Van.

Third, If I bore out the case of an 0435 to accept 320 cylinders, that should be OK, right? ;)
 
final post on this

From the AD

"reciprocating engines are installed on, but not limited to, the aircraft listed"
 
No what he said was unless Lycoming issues you a new dataplate, (and obviously you have to turn one in to get a new one from them) it is still on the books as the original part/model #. Until it is removed from their books as the original model, it still is that model. There is nothing dishonest implied, in fact, the opposite...

So if Pen Yan has a whole pile of engine case halves to pick from, you think that they ensure each SN is "off the books" at Lycoming before they put an engine together?

Regarding your second question, if there is no AD which states that an oversize bore cylinder has to be replaced, then you're ok...

Does it make any sense to you that one form of "unairworthy" is different than another? It either meets specs, or it does not.

Tell ya what: when you fly your PA-22 homebuilt, would you be willing to have an FSDO inspector come over and would you be willing to show him any AD's you are intentionally not in compliance with?

There will be no AD's on my airplane; it will meet all requirements of an EAB with ease, therefore, it will be a new airplane.

I'll say it again, if what you are saying is true, the whole hombuilding world is going to be turned upside down, because there are a LOT of "unairworthy" airplanes out there.
 
From the AD

"reciprocating engines are installed on, but not limited to, the aircraft listed"


Saw that... Just pointing out that the Feds, by improperly defining an aircraft that does not exist, have shown their ignorance and inconsistency. Hard to respect an agency with such internal problems, isn?t it?
 
In addition, there is no requirement for the make and model on my data plate (when I have one) to be Vans RV-6A. I can call my plane a Make: Peterson, Model: Flyn' Machine if i want. I am the manufacturer. Would an AD against a Vans RV-6 then apply? That said, I intend to comply with AD's on my aircraft, they were issued for a reason...
 
End of thread

I've decided to close this thread. If you guys want to continue this discussion, you can start a new thread, because it has diverged way off course from the original topic.
 
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