IO-360-A1A Overhaul and weight reduction

[SwissVolts]

Hi,

I have a Lycoming IO-360-A1A (200HP angular valve) that will power my future RV8, and I want to lighten it to improve aerobatics.
Maybe you can confirm if I'm on the right path or help with a better idea to achieve my goals

1. Cylinders overhaul. I have found some sites in Europe but I don't have any reference... does anyone know Aeroengine? Loma Air? Scan Aviation? any other ?
If I can't find good references, I think I will send the cylinders to Penn Yan Aero, I have read that they are very good!

2. Electronic injection and System32 EFII ignition.
Without magnetos and mechanical fuel pump. Less weight and horsepower increase

3. 2x B&C SD8 alternators.
One in place of the mechanical fuel pump and one in place of the dry air pump.

4. Remove the heavy original alternator and change the flywheel for the one offered by Flyefii, light and without a pulley.

5. 2x lightweight lithium batteries.

6. Change the starter motor, I have read that one of the best and lightest is B&C BCS206.

I just built a wooden engine stand, because the typical metal stands are not available in Europe. It seems to be quite robust. Now the work begins!

Best regards

 

[RV8JD]

Not sure if the SkyDynamics lightweight flywheel is lighter than the one offered by FlyEFii:

https://skydynamics.com/products/engine/featherweight-flywheel​

"Our 149 tooth Featherweight Flywheel weighs just 3.1 pounds (1.4kg).

The most common Lycoming ring gear supports weigh between 6.5 - 7.0 pounds.

That means our Featherweight Flywheels typically drop more than 3 pounds from the nose of the aircraft."​

 

[rv8ch]

...
1. Cylinders overhaul. I have found some sites in Europe but I don't have any reference... does anyone know Aeroengine? Loma Air? Scan Aviation? any other ?
If I can't find good references, I think I will send the cylinders to Penn Yan Aero, I have read that they are very good!
...

Just out of curiosity, why are you overhauling the cylinders?

There is an outfit in Switzerland that has a good reputation. I don't have personal experience with them.

http://www.cermecmotor.ch/

You might look at the monkworkz generator - it seems like a very light option. https://monkworkz.com/

Why do you want two alternators and two batteries?

 

[SwissVolts]

Thanks for the answers !

RV8JD, True, the Skydynamics flywheel is 1.24 pounds lighter than the Flyefii, although considerably more expensive! I'll keep it in mind .

rv8ch, I bought the engine at a very good price but it requires overhaul, Tach 3048, TSMO 2066 and prop strike. The TBO of this engine is 2000 hours. I haven't disassembled the cylinders yet but I suppose it could use an overhaul, new pistons, etc. and maybe porting and polishing to improve performance.

I live in Switzerland and it would be a great advantage to be able to overhaul the cylinders here, but my experience with mechanics in Switzerland (cars) has not been very good... x10 prices and mediocre results, I hope I'm wrong! I'll send an email and see what they offer me.

I really liked the monkworkz alternator! It's on the shopping list I already have an SD8, instead of buying a second one as I had planned, I'll buy this one. Less heavy, smaller in size and almost x4 power, incredible!

I have thought about 2 "special" alternators and 2 lithium batteries for various reasons.
Safety, the injection and electronic ignition system need a battery in good condition to work and this is vital!
An SD8 alternator only gives 8 Amps, very very fair.
On the other hand, the weight would still be lower than that of the original alternator and lead battery...

 

[hgerhardt]

Install parallel-valve cylinders. That should remove 30+ lbs, and they're cheaper than angle-valvers. Might lose some HP unless you port the heads ala Lycon.

 

[skylor]

EFII true we

Hi,

I have a Lycoming IO-360-A1A (200HP angular valve) that will power my future RV8, and I want to lighten it to improve aerobatics.
Maybe you can confirm if I'm on the right path or help with a better idea to achieve my goals

1. Cylinders overhaul. I have found some sites in Europe but I don't have any reference... does anyone know Aeroengine? Loma Air? Scan Aviation? any other ?
If I can't find good references, I think I will send the cylinders to Penn Yan Aero, I have read that they are very good!

2. Electronic injection and System32 EFII ignition.
Without magnetos and mechanical fuel pump. Less weight and horsepower increase

3. 2x B&C SD8 alternators.
One in place of the mechanical fuel pump and one in place of the dry air pump.

4. Remove the heavy original alternator and change the flywheel for the one offered by Flyefii, light and without a pulley.

5. 2x lightweight lithium batteries.

6. Change the starter motor, I have read that one of the best and lightest is B&C BCS206.

I just built a wooden engine stand, because the typical metal stands are not available in Europe. It seems to be quite robust. Now the work begins!

Best regards

I’m not sure that you will actually end up with a lighter package with an electrically dependent engine.

1. 2 alternators, 2 batteries and full redundant equipment for the EFII probably ends up heavier or at a least a wash to a single alternator/single battery and mag/mechanical injection setup.

2. Check your power demands carefully. It’s doubtful that a single SD-8 generator supplies enough power to operate EFII and electric pump plus any avionics you plan to install.

3. Choose your batteries carefully. Some Lithium battery manufacturers such as Shorai overstate their actual capacities by something like a factor of 3!

Skylor
RV-8

 

[PilotjohnS]

Pad mounted alternators

I would not use two pad mounted alternators. One should be a belt drive so that the battery will recharge after start during idling. My experience is the pad alternators wont do this. B and C make a belt drive alternator which is the same weight as their pad mounted one, so there is no weight gain with a belt drive alternator.JMHO

 

[SwissVolts]

There cannot be a saving of 30 Lbs just by changing to parallel valve cylinders, since according to Lycoming the difference between my engine and the M1B is 24 Lbs. And I wouldn't want to lose 20HP! I prefer to save weight in other places!

According to Lycoming:

IO-360-M1B: 300 Lbs.
IO-360-A1A: 324 Lbs.

My current alternator weighs: 16.1 Lbs
SD8 Alternator: 2.9 Lbs
Monkworkz Alternator: 3 Lbs
(with two alternators saving 10.2 Lbs)

My current starter weighs: 17.1 Lbs
I just saw the Sky-Tech 149-NL which weighs even less than the B&C: 9.4 Lbs
(Savings 7.7 Lbs)

I will build the batteries myself (it's what we do in my company). Approximately 0.33 Lbs/Ah.
Two batteries (15Ah) : 9.9 Lbs
A typical Powersonic battery (30Ah ) : 23Lbs
(Savings 13.1 Lbs)

My current flywheel: 6.9 Lbs
skydynamics flywheel: 3.1 Lbs
(Savings 3.8 Lbs)

I still have to remove the weight from the magnetos, fuel pump and dry air pump. I have not weighed these components yet, but I assume they will be heavier than the System32 EFII injection and electronic ignition.

Maybe there is a flaw in my calculations, but it seems that you can have a 220HP A1A angle valve engine, and still be 11Lbs lighter than with a typical 180HP engine.

 

[airguy]

My current starter weighs: 17.1 Lbs
I just saw the Sky-Tech 149-NL which weighs even less than the B&C: 9.4 Lbs
(Savings 7.7 Lbs)

The Sky-Tech is a good starter, you'll like that one. It comes in two sizes to match the number of teeth on the flywheel - make sure the flywheel has 149 teeth to match the 149 pinion on the starter.

I will build the batteries myself (it's what we do in my company). Approximately 0.33 Lbs/Ah.
Two batteries (15Ah) : 9.9 Lbs
A typical Powersonic battery (30Ah ) : 23Lbs
(Savings 13.1 Lbs)

Do you have BMS architecture as well, to protect the cells?

I still have to remove the weight from the magnetos, fuel pump and dry air pump. I have not weighed these components yet, but I assume they will be heavier than the System32 EFII injection and electronic ignition.

Remember that you'll still need to add a dual electric fuel pump module for the EFII injection system.

 

[Avanza]

I saw you mentioned a dry air pump.
Do you mean a vacuum pump ??.
If you want to reduce the weight of the engine/ air frame, think of using electronic instrument EFIS. Then you don´t need heavy mechanical gyros
or the vacuum pump.

Good luck

 

[SwissVolts]

Hello Airguy, I have several sources where to choose BMS, compared to other projects it would not be a complicated BMS.

I know that two electric pumps are necessary, but the rest is electronic and should not weigh too much compared to the magnetos, the mechanical fuel pump and the vacuum pump. When I have it in my possession, I will put the complete system on the scale and we will clear up any doubts hehehe.

Hello Avanza, yes, I was referring exactly to the vacuum pump for the instruments that I will not need. As you said, I plan to install an EFIS system, I don't know which one yet... when the time comes I will decide, but nothing too expensive or complicated. I would rather invest that money in a good propeller, like Whirlwind 330 3 blade

 

[Carl Froehlich]

Hi,

SNIP
2. Electronic injection and System32 EFII ignition.
Without magnetos and mechanical fuel pump. Less weight and horsepower increase
SNIP

To my knowledge there is no data to support any electronic fuel injection producing more horsepower over a traditional mechanical fuel injection system on the same engine.

Carl

 

[KatanaPilot]

To my knowledge there is no data to support any electronic fuel injection producing more horsepower over a traditional mechanical fuel injection system on the same engine.

Carl

Agreed. One of the EFII suppliers states “ Up to 10% increase in available horsepower”. I would sure like to see dyno runs from this company proving their claim.

 

[airguy]

Agreed. One of the EFII suppliers states “ Up to 10% increase in available horsepower”. I would sure like to see dyno runs from this company proving their claim.

There might be some basis for that against a carburetor, but I just don't see it happening against a correctly installed and properly working mechanical injection system. My SDS gives me a lot more efficiency in LOP cruise than the mechanical injection I used to run, but as far as more horsepower? Sorry, not until I see a dyno run.

 

[SwissVolts]

I assume that the mechanical injection and ignition will be more conservative, and perhaps the electronic systems allow a wider range of adjustment?

If the above doesn't work as promised... Porting and Polishing cylinder heads does seem to work. You can gain about 5HP per cylinder, and if you include "good" pistons it seems that an extra 30HP is guaranteed

 

[penguin]

I have just been through a similar process with my engine. The greatest weight saving I achieved (saving around 24lb) was installing a carbon Whirlwind prop in place of a (old paddle blade) Hartzell, performance has also improved.
I also installed a Lithium battery that saved another 12lb.
Other weight savings included,
- Sky Dynamics sump & intake - around 9lb saving plus small hp increase, price is now around $5K but delivery time is around 2 years. If doing it again I would probably fit a Superior sump for most of the benefits as it is cheaper and available.
- SD starter ring with no alternator pulley (but as you noted SDS EFI produces a similar item).
- Monkworkz alternator, so far (10 hours flying) no problems.
- 2 x Pmag (against 1 x plain & 1 x impulse mag)
- I was already using a B&C starter

It was difficult to compare like with like when comparing the weight of engines, few people are specific as to exactly what accessories are included in a given weight. I didn't pull my engine off the mount to find out what it weighed before I started. Weight saving is as much about not adding stuff as taking things away.

If I was starting from scratch I might look at SDS EFI, but I already had an Airflow Performance system so no point in throwing that away.
I also have a skinny oil cooler that (so far) has been OK through a couple of months of English summer.

I don't think it is possible to shed much weight from the basic engine without running the risk of unreliability, but you do have to look at the aeroplane as a whole.

 

[SwissVolts]

Hello penguin. Thanks for the new ideas, I'll look into the Superior sump, it's already on the wish list!

I'm not obsessed with weight, but I always read that RV8s fly better with 180HP engines, especially if you want it for aerobatics... and I want the plane for aerobatics! but a 200HP motor appeared that I couldn't refuse...

After doing a little research I saw that it is not impossible to achieve or even improve the weight of the standard 180HP engine and have the power of angle valves. Sounds good!

It is also a good idea to go to the gym, it is healthier for us and for our wallet to remove 10kg from our belly