Gary, It sounds as if you know something that you believe the rest of us don't, but should, know. Passing along that knowledge would be most helpful.
Van's Air Force
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Heads up about Ramp Checks
- Thread starter lcnmrv8r
- Start date
Gary, It sounds as if you know something that you believe the rest of us don't, but should, know. Passing along that knowledge would be most helpful.
Based on too many notable cases of federal police abusing their power, I believe this approach is naive at best.
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JimLogajan
Active Member
Old charts and ramp checks.
Being held "accountable" for an out of date chart during a ramp check is, at least for most general aviation purposes, an "old pilot's tale". Here's the word on this subject from the proverbial Equus asinus mouth:
Quoting from: http://naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/faq
If you, as an FAA Safety Inspector, Designated Pilot Examiner, Flight Instructor, or other aviation professional are telling pilots something other than the foregoing then you are incorrect.
Being held "accountable" for an out of date chart during a ramp check is, at least for most general aviation purposes, an "old pilot's tale". Here's the word on this subject from the proverbial Equus asinus mouth:
Quoting from: http://naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/faq
- "You can carry old charts in your aircraft." "It is not FAA policy to violate anyone for having outdated charts in the aircraft."
- "Not all pilots are required to carry a chart." "91.503..requires the pilot in command of large and multiengine airplanes to have charts." "Other operating sections of the FAR such as Part 121 and Part 135 operations have similar requirements."
- ... "since some pilots thought they could be violated for having outdated or no charts on board during a flight, we need to clarify an important issue. As we have said, it is NOT FAA policy to initiate enforcement action against a pilot for having an old chart on board or no chart on board." That's because there is no regulation on the issue.
- ... "the issue of current chart data bases in handheld GPS receivers is a non-issue because the units are neither approved by the FAA or required for flight, nor do panel-mounted VFR-only GPS receivers have to have a current data base because, like handheld GPS receivers, the pilot is responsible for pilotage under VFR.
- "If a pilot is involved in an enforcement investigation and there is evidence that the use of an out-of-date chart, no chart, or an out-of-date database contributed to the condition that brought on the enforcement investigation, then that information could be used in any enforcement action that might be taken."
If you, as an FAA Safety Inspector, Designated Pilot Examiner, Flight Instructor, or other aviation professional are telling pilots something other than the foregoing then you are incorrect.
Confused, ...... Yet Again!
Gary: Informative Post, thanks. I actually clicked on your link, and found the following under 6-95 (D):
D. Flight Manual. An Aircraft Flight Manual is required to be on board the aircraft (? 91.9 ) along with the appropriate markings and placards.
I then looked at 91.9, which also references 21.5. Neither seems to state that a POH or AFM is not required for E-AB aircraft.
Not doubting you or anyone who states that an Aircraft Flight Manual, (is that the same as a Pilot Operating Handbook?) is not required for an experimental amateur-built aircraft, but it is confusing to me.
Is there a statement anywhere that an AFM or a POH is NOT required for E-AB aircraft? Or is it inferred from the fact that nowhere does it state that one IS required?
I don't have a POH, and I don't want to create one if it isn't necessary.
Thanks for the education................!!
Gary: Informative Post, thanks. I actually clicked on your link, and found the following under 6-95 (D):
D. Flight Manual. An Aircraft Flight Manual is required to be on board the aircraft (? 91.9 ) along with the appropriate markings and placards.
I then looked at 91.9, which also references 21.5. Neither seems to state that a POH or AFM is not required for E-AB aircraft.
Not doubting you or anyone who states that an Aircraft Flight Manual, (is that the same as a Pilot Operating Handbook?) is not required for an experimental amateur-built aircraft, but it is confusing to me.
Is there a statement anywhere that an AFM or a POH is NOT required for E-AB aircraft? Or is it inferred from the fact that nowhere does it state that one IS required?
I don't have a POH, and I don't want to create one if it isn't necessary.
Thanks for the education................!!
POH/AFM
Here are some links on Doug's site:
http://www.vansairforce.net/poh.htm
Here is a link to Kevin's POH, which is a phonebook, and is outstanding:
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8/phplinks/out.php?&ID=344
I had to create one as part of the process where I live, and I really didn't look forward to the extra work. However, I found it to be quite interesting, and has helped me pull together in one place a lot of important information about my aircraft. There are several excellent examples you can use to start from, and it does not need to be a thick as a phone book - just what you feel you need.
Here are some links on Doug's site:
http://www.vansairforce.net/poh.htm
Here is a link to Kevin's POH, which is a phonebook, and is outstanding:
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8/phplinks/out.php?&ID=344
Flying Scotsman
Well Known Member
The amount of misinformation that is disseminated, both on the web and otherwise, is truly mind-boggling sometimes. You ready for this one? I recently got into a debate (just short of an argument) with the owner of a local FBO who insisted that it was a requirement to have a current Airport/Facility Directory in the plane. He went so far as to say that if I were to get ramp-checked and didn't have one, I could receive a violation. I asked him to show me the FARs, and (of course) got a sort of "I don't have time for that BS" response, no doubt because he was wrong on several levels.
I suspect he was just trying to sell A/FDs to unsuspecting students and new pilots, but I found his attitude (not to mention his incorrect information) unbelievable.
Your "Operating Limitations" meets the requirements for a POH.
Although it is good to have a detailed POH, one is not specifically required.
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The following quote is from:
http://members.eaa.org/home/ehotline/020510.html
Q & A: Question of the Week
Question For Aviation Information Services:
I understand that it is a legal requirement to carry documents in a U.S.-registered certified aircraft. The mnemonic I recall is "ARROW":
Airworthiness Certificate
Registration Certificate
Radio Certificate
Owners Handbook (POH)
Weight & Balance
Is the same list also legally required for a homebuilt experimental?
Answer: Yes, the basic requirement for on-board aircraft paperwork is the same for all U.S. registered aircraft, regardless of certification category. The basic list is as follows:
A - Airworthiness Certificate. In the case of an experimental aircraft, this requirement includes not only the certificate itself, but also the operating limitations document that was issued along with (and as a part of) the airworthiness certificate.
R - Registration. This refers to the FAA registration card (FAA Form 8050-3).
R - Radio Station License. This is no longer required for domestic U.S. operations. However, if you plan to fly across international borders, you must have one.
O - Operating Limitations. This includes not only an FAA approved Pilot Operating Handbook (if there is one for your aircraft) but also any other required documents, markings, and/or placards specified in the aircraft's type certificate. In the case of an experimental aircraft, this is another reference to the operating limitations document that was issued along with the airworthiness certificate, along with any placards or markings required by the FARs.
W - Weight and Balance. A copy of the most current weight and balance info, including empty weight center of gravity (CG), fore and aft CG limits, and arms for all loading points (seats, fuel, baggage, etc.).
N395V
Well Known Member
I posted this on VAF somewhere once before but cannot find it5. Figured this thread was a good place and time to re post.
It is an article written by John Hoff and Theo. Young.
WHAT ARE YOUR RAMP RIGHTS by John Scott Hoff and Theodore J. Young While the joys and excitement of general aviation abound, one of the more stressful aspects is the possibility of a random ramp check. This may be conducted by the FAA or any peace officer. The key to survival of one of these inpsections is a clear under- standing of your rights as a pilot and a pre-established idea of what to do when you are targeted for a ramp check. What are your "Ramp Rights"? First, FAA guidelines and authority to conduct ramp checks come primarily in 14 CFR 61.3(h) "Inpsection of certificate," which states that "each person who holds a pilot certificate, flight instructor certificate, medical certificate, authorization or license required by this part shall present it for inspection upon the request of the Administrator, an authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board, or any Federal, State or local law enforcement officer." In addition, 14 CFR 61.51(d) states that "A pilot must present his logbook (or other record required by this section) for inspection upon reasonable request by the Administrator, an authorized representative of the NTSB, or any State or local law enforcement officer." Unlike licenses, however, pilots need not have their logbooks on their person or personal possession and, thus, these need not be presented on the spot. Take these CFR's seriously, as a failure or refusal to produce the required documents will probably result in a certificate suspension. The National Transportation Safety Board has held in Administrator v. Weinstein, NTSB Order No. EA-3675 (1992) and echoed in Administrator v. Jones, NTSB Order No. EA-3796 (1993) that the Administrator has an "absolute right" to review a pilot's logbook so long as the request is reasonable in the sense that compliance presents no undue or inappropriate burden. With the above in mind, keep the following checklist in a convenient place in case you need it in a hurry> 1. ATTITUDE: First, DON'T PANIC! Be as polite and cooperative as possible, with an occasional "Sir" thrown in for good measure. It will be worth it to keep yourself in the air, and the FAA looking elsewhere for trouble with minimum delay. Belligerence won't help. 2. AUTHORITY OF REQUESTOR: Ask the investigator to display his/her FAA identification when you are approached and copy the information on it. Remember, the investigator does not have to be in uniform, so his/her ID may be the only way to show the authority to ramp-check you. 3. WITNESSES: If at all possible, have one or two witnesses present to listen and to observe the investigator, in case there is some dispute in the future about what actually occurred during the ramp check. 4. INQUIRE: Unless the information is volunteered, ask the inves- tigator exactly what the purpose of the ramp check will be and what he is going to do during the ramp check. 5. NO WARRANT NECESSARY: Keep in mind that an inspector does not have to have a warrant to inspect you, but he must observe that \ you are the pilot of the aircraft. There is no "Miranda Warning." These proceedings are civil in nature. 6. SHUT UP: If questioned, be willing to cooperate with the basics: give your name, acknowledge that you are the pilot and show the required documents. But remember, you do not have to answer any questions. Merely produce the documents they are authorized to request. You need do no more. Hoof and mouth disease has hanged many a good airman. 7. AIRCRAFT INSPECTION NOT INCLUDED: The investigator does not have the right to touch or board your aircraft. If (s)he is about to, courteously ask him/her to refrain. 8. NO RETALIATION: If you feel you are being harassed, treated discourteously, or discriminated against, keep your cool and return courtesy and basic minimum cooperativeness. After the ramp check, have both yourself and your witnesses immediately and independently document what happened. Then seek legal advice to protest the inspector's actions. The inspector must be reason- able, and you should be caused no undue or inappropriate burden. 9. NO LOSS OF LICENSE CUSTODY: The inspector has no right to confiscate or retain your license. The only have a right to "inspect." You need not give up your certificate. 10. CONTINUED AIRCRAFT OPERATION: Finally, do not allow the inspector to "ground" you or your aircraft based on a ramp check. Take into account the inspector's advice in this matter, but the final decision is yours. That's it: These are your "Ramp Rights." All pilots should be aware of their responsibilities and obligations, as well as their rights. Every airman should be aware of the limits to a ramp check as a part of safe aircraft operation. About the authors: John Scott Hoff is a trial attorney in the law firm of John Scott Hoff, P.C. Hoff began his career as a trial attorney in the Office of the Chief Counsel of the Federal Aviaiton Administration. Mr Hoff entered into his current practice following his tenure at the FAA. He is a colonel in the United States Air Force Reserve, a CFI and he holds a Commercial Pilot's license for both single and multiple engine aircraft. Theodore J. Young was commissioned an officer in the U.S. Air Force shortly after receiving a B.A. in political science-prelaw from the University of Central Florida in 1987.
The following link is to a pdf file that ramp inspectors use as a guide http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=F.79cc48e9-f708-4fe9-bc21-b7625411bc29
It is an article written by John Hoff and Theo. Young.
WHAT ARE YOUR RAMP RIGHTS by John Scott Hoff and Theodore J. Young While the joys and excitement of general aviation abound, one of the more stressful aspects is the possibility of a random ramp check. This may be conducted by the FAA or any peace officer. The key to survival of one of these inpsections is a clear under- standing of your rights as a pilot and a pre-established idea of what to do when you are targeted for a ramp check. What are your "Ramp Rights"? First, FAA guidelines and authority to conduct ramp checks come primarily in 14 CFR 61.3(h) "Inpsection of certificate," which states that "each person who holds a pilot certificate, flight instructor certificate, medical certificate, authorization or license required by this part shall present it for inspection upon the request of the Administrator, an authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board, or any Federal, State or local law enforcement officer." In addition, 14 CFR 61.51(d) states that "A pilot must present his logbook (or other record required by this section) for inspection upon reasonable request by the Administrator, an authorized representative of the NTSB, or any State or local law enforcement officer." Unlike licenses, however, pilots need not have their logbooks on their person or personal possession and, thus, these need not be presented on the spot. Take these CFR's seriously, as a failure or refusal to produce the required documents will probably result in a certificate suspension. The National Transportation Safety Board has held in Administrator v. Weinstein, NTSB Order No. EA-3675 (1992) and echoed in Administrator v. Jones, NTSB Order No. EA-3796 (1993) that the Administrator has an "absolute right" to review a pilot's logbook so long as the request is reasonable in the sense that compliance presents no undue or inappropriate burden. With the above in mind, keep the following checklist in a convenient place in case you need it in a hurry> 1. ATTITUDE: First, DON'T PANIC! Be as polite and cooperative as possible, with an occasional "Sir" thrown in for good measure. It will be worth it to keep yourself in the air, and the FAA looking elsewhere for trouble with minimum delay. Belligerence won't help. 2. AUTHORITY OF REQUESTOR: Ask the investigator to display his/her FAA identification when you are approached and copy the information on it. Remember, the investigator does not have to be in uniform, so his/her ID may be the only way to show the authority to ramp-check you. 3. WITNESSES: If at all possible, have one or two witnesses present to listen and to observe the investigator, in case there is some dispute in the future about what actually occurred during the ramp check. 4. INQUIRE: Unless the information is volunteered, ask the inves- tigator exactly what the purpose of the ramp check will be and what he is going to do during the ramp check. 5. NO WARRANT NECESSARY: Keep in mind that an inspector does not have to have a warrant to inspect you, but he must observe that \ you are the pilot of the aircraft. There is no "Miranda Warning." These proceedings are civil in nature. 6. SHUT UP: If questioned, be willing to cooperate with the basics: give your name, acknowledge that you are the pilot and show the required documents. But remember, you do not have to answer any questions. Merely produce the documents they are authorized to request. You need do no more. Hoof and mouth disease has hanged many a good airman. 7. AIRCRAFT INSPECTION NOT INCLUDED: The investigator does not have the right to touch or board your aircraft. If (s)he is about to, courteously ask him/her to refrain. 8. NO RETALIATION: If you feel you are being harassed, treated discourteously, or discriminated against, keep your cool and return courtesy and basic minimum cooperativeness. After the ramp check, have both yourself and your witnesses immediately and independently document what happened. Then seek legal advice to protest the inspector's actions. The inspector must be reason- able, and you should be caused no undue or inappropriate burden. 9. NO LOSS OF LICENSE CUSTODY: The inspector has no right to confiscate or retain your license. The only have a right to "inspect." You need not give up your certificate. 10. CONTINUED AIRCRAFT OPERATION: Finally, do not allow the inspector to "ground" you or your aircraft based on a ramp check. Take into account the inspector's advice in this matter, but the final decision is yours. That's it: These are your "Ramp Rights." All pilots should be aware of their responsibilities and obligations, as well as their rights. Every airman should be aware of the limits to a ramp check as a part of safe aircraft operation. About the authors: John Scott Hoff is a trial attorney in the law firm of John Scott Hoff, P.C. Hoff began his career as a trial attorney in the Office of the Chief Counsel of the Federal Aviaiton Administration. Mr Hoff entered into his current practice following his tenure at the FAA. He is a colonel in the United States Air Force Reserve, a CFI and he holds a Commercial Pilot's license for both single and multiple engine aircraft. Theodore J. Young was commissioned an officer in the U.S. Air Force shortly after receiving a B.A. in political science-prelaw from the University of Central Florida in 1987.
The following link is to a pdf file that ramp inspectors use as a guide http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=F.79cc48e9-f708-4fe9-bc21-b7625411bc29
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tomcostanza
Well Known Member
I can't get this link to work. Could you double check?
Thanks.
N395V
Well Known Member
frankh
Well Known Member
Wait a minute
Well the last few issues of AOPA magazine would seem to dissagree with the above thesis.
Namely the pilot that refused to turn on the master switch (no doubt so the ramp inspector could see that his IFR database was up to date)...In the subsequent trial that court ruled he was "Obstructing" the ramp inspector and they suspendid his license..
And how about the guy that grazed his wingtip and bent the fence that stops you getting blinded by the strobe...Well the pilot gets out unbends the little piece of metal and climbs back in ready to taxi out when he gets stopped by the ramp checker....Not sure if the pilot eventually took off but the ramp checker told him he couldn't fly until he had an A&P inspect the wing (be thankful for you repairmans certificate)...Subsequently in court he got busted too.
So I'm not sure how our theoretical right line up with our real rights..I mean according to the above diatribe both of these cases should have been thrown out immediately.
Frank
Well the last few issues of AOPA magazine would seem to dissagree with the above thesis.
Namely the pilot that refused to turn on the master switch (no doubt so the ramp inspector could see that his IFR database was up to date)...In the subsequent trial that court ruled he was "Obstructing" the ramp inspector and they suspendid his license..
And how about the guy that grazed his wingtip and bent the fence that stops you getting blinded by the strobe...Well the pilot gets out unbends the little piece of metal and climbs back in ready to taxi out when he gets stopped by the ramp checker....Not sure if the pilot eventually took off but the ramp checker told him he couldn't fly until he had an A&P inspect the wing (be thankful for you repairmans certificate)...Subsequently in court he got busted too.
So I'm not sure how our theoretical right line up with our real rights..I mean according to the above diatribe both of these cases should have been thrown out immediately.
Frank
The repairman certificate has nothing to do with maintenance on an amateur-built aircraft. It only allows you to sign off the annual "condition inspection". Anyone can perform maintenance on these aircraft.
frankh
Well Known Member
True but
I guess the argument I would bring up in court would be that I am qualified to inspect the wing and determine it was suitable for flight...Which I just did.
But my general point was that the subsequent trial and busting of "offending pilot" seemed to have little do with the rules.
Of course the AOPA has a bit of an axe to grind in selling you legal protection services, i.e these incidents maybe as rare as hens teeth but they make for good reading..
Frank
I guess the argument I would bring up in court would be that I am qualified to inspect the wing and determine it was suitable for flight...Which I just did.
But my general point was that the subsequent trial and busting of "offending pilot" seemed to have little do with the rules.
Of course the AOPA has a bit of an axe to grind in selling you legal protection services, i.e these incidents maybe as rare as hens teeth but they make for good reading..
Frank
I think the legality in this is that the violation wasn't "defying" the ramp checker, it was flying the airplane with damage that required inspection by an A&P. If a police officer advised you not to drive your car because you had a bad headlight but you ignored this advice, your ticket would be for faulty equipment, not disobeying the officer.
Roger
-9A slow QB
