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Engine, Prop and Avionics Update posted

georgemohr said:
I really dont think you do. There is no "trust" account in any meaningful way. You are putting money into a C11 company in the hopes they pull through. If they don't that money is gone. Make your go-nogo decision based on that risk. Personally, we decided to accept that risk. I really do believe they will pull through this.
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What exactly are they touting as a "Trust"? Sales gimmick? Layout exactly what it is, and what if any protection it provides. I think that information is meaningful.
 
Dan 57 said:
An overall very good post Cholley6, all valid points, thanks for that.

My only doubt is regarding those attributes... the opposite of hater in this very case would not be cheerleader but apostle, and I seriously doubt there are any Van's hater here.
Reading thru those posts shows supporters, then a majority wading thru uncertainty, and some angry ones. But I don't think, and certainly hope that no one wishes Van's to go down the drain.

One common point to all forum participants, we are all fond of our little fun machines, love dreaming about them, building them, maintaining them, and love the Total Performance they offer, for many more years hopefully.
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Agree. Definitely furious but these offers are objectively bad. How is there no negotiation ability to modify our orders either from QB to regular or Thunderbolt to non thunderbolt. That blows my mind and in my case for the engine locks me into a bad deal no matter what I choose to do.
 
N82VM said:
What exactly are they touting as a "Trust"? Sales gimmick? Layout exactly what it is, and what if any protection it provides. I think that information is meaningful.
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I'm unaware of any vocabulary from Vans calling this a "trust". Did I miss something?
 
N82VM said:
see post https://vansairforce.net/threads/engine-prop-and-avionics-update-posted.224003/post-1744610
the attachment is a screenshot of what was sent for the order modification for the engine. Specifically says "will be held in trust in our newly established customer deposit account..."
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TY for the link!

edit: yeah looking at this detail, I still think there's nothing to this to protect this money. They are comitting to not use it for operating expenses. This doesn't mean that the money is secured in some way. If they go Ch7, it's all but gone. Someone with more legal/financial expertise can correct me if I'm wrong, but I would (and did) act as if this money is at risk.
 
spatsch said:
Considering that Van's spend the deposit the best financial outcome for them would be that you don't reorder the engine and become a creditor. We don't have the detailed break down but based on their financial statements they expect to loose not make money on existing engine contracts. So that implies that there margin was less than the difference between the 25% deposit and 12% price increase for Lycoming engines. I also suspect that the reason other 3rd parties increased less is that their margin was higher for those products in the first place so less of the 25% deposit belonged to the 3rd party and needs to be offset by a price increase.

So consider that why would they give you additional guarantees to reorder? I think they are perfectly fine you becoming a creditor.

Oliver
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N82VM said:
see post https://vansairforce.net/threads/engine-prop-and-avionics-update-posted.224003/post-1744610
the attachment is a screenshot of what was sent for the order modification for the engine. Specifically says "will be held in trust in our newly established customer deposit account..."
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That’s just words….in trust…..but not escrow…..they say absolutely nothing about how safe our money is….because it’s simply not safe. I’m tending to think they don’t want us to reorder the damn engines as above.
 
sc_pilot said:
Well here let me add to your metrics… I’m not renewing but I’m also not mouthing off about it. While the increased amount isn’t unreasonable… Their new contract, payment terms, lack of cancelation policy/refund, payment protection, and no information regarding engine availability, stock on hand, or delivery timeline all is very risky. I’m not comfortable sending Van’s $41,000 to complete my engine order. I wish them luck in their recovery but it won’t be on my dime anymore.
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Agree…risky without escrow or kit availability.
 
You can choose to trust the integrity of Van’s or not. I am certain that they would take back the mistakes made if they could. They can’t.
They have volunteered to hold deposits in separate account to prevent them from using it as operating capital. They didn’t have to do that. Do you trust them to not go against their word and dip into it? If I didn’t I would sell my kits/project for whatever I could and I would get as far away from Van‘s as I could. From the comments from a few of the folks here I simply don’t understand why you are still wanting ANYTHING to do with Van’s. Seriously, for your own mental well being, find a different project.

If you can accept that the folks at Van’s are basically honest, and that they are TRYING to dig out of a hole that came from a bit of a perfect storm of issues, then I think your risk isn’t much different by accepting the new terms. Van’s finances are being overseen now by a skilled group of folks who have proven they can help save distressed companies. Further, a court is watching. AND, they are not asking for more money from you yet.

If Van’s does fail and go on to Chapter 7 your current claim is worthless. I.e. You are not getting paid on a claim you make now until Van’s gets some cash flow going. If they progress to liquidation then your claim is worth as much as my claim will be, For my deposit that rolled over to my new order… and that will be pennies on the dollar at best.

Yes, I will eventually have to write a big check for the balance. At that point we will have a few more months (at least) of experience and visibility into how Van’s is doing and will likely be hearing stories about people getting their engines. If not, I am happy to be the first guy to write that check.
 
RV7A Flyer said:
...

IANAL, but isn't the problem that if they fall into Chapter 7, ALL of their assets go into it with them, including any and all bank accounts?
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RV7A Flyer said:
...

IANAL, but isn't the problem that if they fall into Chapter 7, ALL of their assets go into it with them, including any and all bank accounts?
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I believe you are right, but I don’t think either of us are adding money to the pot until right before they are ready to ship my engine/kit. At that point the length of time they will hold my money is shorter so less time for something bad to happen. And then back to my point, If you file today your claim isn’t going to get paid until they have some cash to do so. If I accept the new offer (I already did BTW) my deposit is still a liability and of they file chapter 7 I can make a claim, at which you and I are in the same boat.

I don’t think they file chapter 7. They have good counsel to help with the restructure and they have money coming in both as loans from RVG and customers. The company is not out of the woods yet, but I expect them to recover and be stronger in the future.
 
Cessnadog said:
You can choose to trust the integrity of Van’s or not. I am certain that they would take back the mistakes made if they could. They can’t.
They have volunteered to hold deposits in separate account to prevent them from using it as operating capital. They didn’t have to do that. Do you trust them to not go against their word and dip into it? If I didn’t I would sell my kits/project for whatever I could and I would get as far away from Van‘s as I could. From the comments from a few of the folks here I simply don’t understand why you are still wanting ANYTHING to do with Van’s. Seriously, for your own mental well being, find a different project.

If you can accept that the folks at Van’s are basically honest, and that they are TRYING to dig out of a hole that came from a bit of a perfect storm of issues, then I think your risk isn’t much different by accepting the new terms. Van’s finances are being overseen now by a skilled group of folks who have proven they can help save distressed companies. Further, a court is watching. AND, they are not asking for more money from you yet.

If Van’s does fail and go on to Chapter 7 your current claim is worthless. I.e. You are not getting paid on a claim you make now until Van’s gets some cash flow going. If they progress to liquidation then your claim is worth as much as my claim will be, For my deposit that rolled over to my new order… and that will be pennies on the dollar at best.

Yes, I will eventually have to write a big check for the balance. At that point we will have a few more months (at least) of experience and visibility into how Van’s is doing and will likely be hearing stories about people getting their engines. If not, I am happy to be the first guy to write that check.
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All very good. yes send your money in….so I can get mine back.
 
swift12 said:
That’s just words….in trust…..but not escrow…..they say absolutely nothing about how safe our money is….because it’s simply not safe. I’m tending to think they don’t want us to reorder the damn engines as above.
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Exactly, the money is going into a separate account, but access to it is the same. Simple analogy it's like a fast food stand taking some cash out of the register and putting in a safe. It keeps the day to day crew from dipping into it. But the manager can still get it, and if they close up shop the cash goes with them.
 
N82VM said:
We need the details of the "Trust" account. Who has authority, what that authority is, exactly what triggers movement of funds, what is required of those funds, what triggers termination of the account, etc etc etc. We should be privy to the document that governs the formation, execution, and disposition of that "Trust" account. Just telling me in an email that its separate from general funds does not suffice.
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You don't "NEED" that information. You may WANT it, but you're not entitled to it. You are not part of Vans Aircraft nor part of the bankruptcy court - those are the only parties entitled to the detailed knowledge of that account and how it will be used.

Now that they've told the bankruptcy court that it will be kept in a side account and held in reserve for deposits (not business-as-usual cash) they have to do so - as long as they remain in Chapter 11. Once they emerge from Chapter 11, THEN you have a legitimate reason to question Vans about it before sending your money.
 
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airguy said:
Now that they've told the bankruptcy court that it will be kept in a side account and held in reserve for deposits (not business-as-usual cash) they have to do so - as long as they remain in Chapter 11. Once they emerge from Chapter 11, THEN you have a legitimate reason to question Vans about it before sending your money.
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That seems a little backwards....Vans got themselves into Chapter 11 by their own mismanagement which has eroded trust and confidence in the consumer. At the risk of losing it all, it seems fair to ask if funds are protected when giving money to a company that has not been able to execute. The answer may be no protection, but the ask is not unreasonable IMO.

Had Van's not gotten into Chapter 11, there would be no need to question them. As stated many times already, it is in all of our interests that Vans pulls out of this, but they sure seem to be making it harder than it needs to be. Transparency, communication, and strong leadership go a long way.
 
airguy said:
You don't "NEED" that information. You may WANT it, but you're not entitled to it. You are not part of Vans Aircraft nor part of the bankruptcy court - those are the only parties entitled to the detailed knowledge of that account and how it will be used.

Now that they've told the bankruptcy court that it will be kept in a side account and held in reserve for deposits (not business-as-usual cash) they have to do so - as long as they remain in Chapter 11. Once they emerge from Chapter 11, THEN you have a legitimate reason to question Vans about it before sending your money.
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Actually I do NEED it to make my assessment. I have been informed that the details or some of the details are contained in the pile of paperwork that is the on going ch 11. Since it’s publicly available, ENTITLEMENT isn’t part of the debate.

Not everyone has time or resources to dig this all out. It would only benefit Vans to make that more transparent and assist those that have skin in the game to make a more informed decision.
 
airguy said:
You don't "NEED" that information. You may WANT it, but you're not entitled to it. You are not part of Vans Aircraft nor part of the bankruptcy court - those are the only parties entitled to the detailed knowledge of that account and how it will be used.

Now that they've told the bankruptcy court that it will be kept in a side account and held in reserve for deposits (not business-as-usual cash) they have to do so - as long as they remain in Chapter 11. Once they emerge from Chapter 11, THEN you have a legitimate reason to question Vans about it before sending your money.
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The whole purpose of this trust account is to take away buyers' apprehensions. If that isn't working, perhaps it is in VAN'S interest to give buyers more information.
 
greghughespdx said:
If you accept and place your re-order, 100% of your original deposits (whether you had 25% of the order on deposit or more, up to 100%) will be applied toward your reorder at the new price.

A lot of numbers are being talked about... The 12% number is the maximum percentage increase (a cap, if you will) over the original price of Lycoming engine orders.
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GREG HUGHES, CAN YOU HEAR ME?

Those of us with empty mailboxes knowing others have their offers are very anxious that we've been overlooked.

Please tell us that you'll make it known when all engine contracts have been sent out (then, of course, follow through with that announcement.)

edit: Same request regarding LCP replacements ...

(Also, where are my RV-10 seats? Shipping won't talk. Been backordered for a year and it is very apparent that new orders are getting theirs. What the?)

Thanks,
Jim
42506
 
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jimbom said:
Those of us with empty mailboxes knowing others have their offers are very anxious that we've been overlooked.
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I received my LCP email four days after the initial round went out (and I got my replacement parts in early January). I haven't received my engine email either but I'm not worried about it. It will arrive in the next few days.
 
I am awaiting both engine and LCP mailings and am in the group waiting for long back ordered RV-10 seats. I would very much appreciate some form of communication if only to say you are on our list and will be contacted soon.
 
We can go back and forth on lcp, corrosion, backorders, kit/engine orders. But at the end of the day, I bet there’s few that can say communication from vans is where it needs to be. I just received notice a part from xyz company is complete, with over a month delay(not bad in the current market). But the key was they communicated with me about delays. No surprise and I knew what was going on with my parts. Small or large business. Communication with customers is key. Emails are great so we don’t need to go on social media to find out info. I called a vendor of vans just to find out if they were actually making and sending parts. I think the key to customer satisfaction and Vans success is communication on the individual level. The kits are great, period! Customers just would like to know the status to get them. Tell me in 5 years I’ll receive them and deliver on that time frame or earlier.
I digress
 
2theskyy said:
We can go back and forth on lcp, corrosion, backorders, kit/engine orders. But at the end of the day, I bet there’s few that can say communication from vans is where it needs to be. I just received notice a part from xyz company is complete, with over a month delay(not bad in the current market). But the key was they communicated with me about delays. No surprise and I knew what was going on with my parts. Small or large business. Communication with customers is key. Emails are great so we don’t need to go on social media to find out info. I called a vendor of vans just to find out if they were actually making and sending parts. I think the key to customer satisfaction and Vans success is communication on the individual level. The kits are great, period! Customers just would like to know the status to get them. Tell me in 5 years I’ll receive them and deliver on that time frame or earlier.
I digress
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A big part of the reason they went bankrupt was the inability to reliably predict these lead times... and not just to us, but to themselves. It's more of a structural issue than a simple communication issue.
 
georgemohr said:
A big part of the reason they went bankrupt was the inability to reliably predict these lead times... and not just to us, but to themselves. It's more of a structural issue than a simple communication issue.
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I’d say bankruptcy causal was multifaceted. The unpredictable lead times pushed poor decisions that lead to the causals but may not have been the direct result. But that’s just conjecture on my part. Not to stir up negative conversations. I just believe if they don’t know lycomings production numbers then maybe don’t take $$ and make promises they know they cannot keep. But it’s their business to decide how to run it(and the courts help now in ch11).
 
2theskyy said:
I’d say bankruptcy causal was multifaceted. The unpredictable lead times pushed poor decisions that lead to the causals but may not have been the direct result. But that’s just conjecture on my part. Not to stir up negative conversations. I just believe if they don’t know lycomings production numbers then maybe don’t take $$ and make promises they know they cannot keep. But it’s their business to decide how to run it(and the courts help now in ch11).
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I have thought about this a bit. I am sure that Van’s was asking Lycoming about projected timelines, and taking them at face value. I am also sure that they were using historic data to project when they (Van’s) would be able to deliver product. I think it is safe to say that nobody saw the supply chain issues coming, at least not to the extent they hit, and that threw everyone’s projections off. I am sure that everyone was hoping for the best and maybe not planning for the worst. I also don’t think this was limited to Vans and lycoming. Remember the pictures of thousands of cars sitting in lots because they couldn’t get chips for them? Wonder how many millions of dollars that cost Ford?
 
Cessnadog said:
I have thought about this a bit. I am sure that Van’s was asking Lycoming about projected timelines, and taking them at face value. I am also sure that they were using historic data to project when they (Van’s) would be able to deliver product. I think it is safe to say that nobody saw the supply chain issues coming, at least not to the extent they hit, and that threw everyone’s projections off. I am sure that everyone was hoping for the best and maybe not planning for the worst. I also don’t think this was limited to Vans and lycoming. Remember the pictures of thousands of cars sitting in lots because they couldn’t get chips for them? Wonder how many millions of dollars that cost Ford?
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FORD,is on the ropes right now.
 
Is anyone else getting multiple emails from [email protected] about the new engine contracts? I had two the first day, and just got another one today. I wonder if they are trying to work out the problem for those that have yet to be notified.
 
N82VM said:
Actually I do NEED it to make my assessment. I have been informed that the details or some of the details are contained in the pile of paperwork that is the on going ch 11. Since it’s publicly available, ENTITLEMENT isn’t part of the debate.

Not everyone has time or resources to dig this all out. It would only benefit Vans to make that more transparent and assist those that have skin in the game to make a more informed decision.
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No argument that Vans should have better communication about the whole mess, you're bang on target there. But by the nature of the court process being a public proceeding, you already have access to all the details that have been recorded - but you're going to have to go find them or ask/pay someone else to do it for you. Details that aren't there, and you wish to have, you are probably not going to be able to get. You will have to decide what action, if any, you will take based on the available information.

Vans has much bigger fish to fry than to worry about your request (and not just singling out YOU - this would apply equally to ANY of us with a request like this). They just willingly turned away 30% of their client list in order to survive - they are not going to worry about one more or less while they clean house. Vans is in survival mode, and that gets ugly.
 
I find all the piss and vinegar posts interesting..... Either you are going to accept the new terms or you are not. You are not going to get any more information regarding the "trust" fund. You either believe that they are going to be true to their word to the absolute best of their ability or they are not. To demand that you are entitled to any more information than you have received up to this point is a fallacy. They have released what they are able to release (mostly on account of legal reasons). Demanding to know the timeline for engines/props/avionics etc will give you nothing. Is it nice to know? Sure. But they are at the mercy of Lycoming in that regard. Call Lycoming. If Lycoming will not answer you then you will know why Vans is not answering you.

All you can do is make a decision. Either you are going to go forward with the pricing that is offered or you are not. That's it. Plain and simple. I am in this boat for just as much as some, probably a lot more than most. All I can do is hope that the company successfully makes it out of chapter 11 (which I believe that they are well on their way to doing based on all projections). Throwing Piss and Vinegar all over social media will do nothing in any regard. Keep demanding and you will not get anything other than High Stress.

Make your decision either way.
 
The US economic outlook is not as good as main stream news would have you believe. Whats changed at Vans is the addition of Lawyers & Liquidators who get paid off the Top.
The price to ship anything,even junk from China is gone up exponentially. You and I also known as creditors are expected to bale out the company,pay the L&L with blinders on as to what the future holds. I'm inclined to lick my wounds. I've toured Lycoming's 1/2 mile long manufacturing & assembly plant in Williamsport. One key hold up is the production of cylinders, world wide demand is way beyond engines alone. A 12% increase, add in a 50% loss of deposit for an engine that is 2 years away and a product Vans doesn't make or control........... Your mileage may vary. IMHO
 
airguy said:
No argument that Vans should have better communication about the whole mess, you're bang on target there. But by the nature of the court process being a public proceeding, you already have access to all the details that have been recorded - but you're going to have to go find them or ask/pay someone else to do it for you. Details that aren't there, and you wish to have, you are probably not going to be able to get. You will have to decide what action, if any, you will take based on the available information.

Vans has much bigger fish to fry than to worry about your request (and not just singling out YOU - this would apply equally to ANY of us with a request like this). They just willingly turned away 30% of their client list in order to survive - they are not going to worry about one more or less while they clean house. Vans is in survival mode, and that gets ugly.
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Exactly this
 
didja said:
You are not going to get any more information regarding the "trust" fund. They have released what they are able to release (mostly on account of legal reasons). Demanding to know the timeline for engines/props/avionics etc will give you nothing. Is it nice to know? Sure. But they are at the mercy of Lycoming in that regard.
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You seem very sure of these statements. Me, not so much. One thing I am sure of, if you don’t ask for more information, you’re very unlikely to get any at all.

Just to follow up on my earlier post, I did just get the email with my modified engine order.
 
jimbom said:
You seem very sure of these statements. Me, not so much. One thing I am sure of, if you don’t ask for more information, you’re very unlikely to get any at all.
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Asking the question is free. I don't think you're likely to get an answer.
 
I’d have to say the questions are not free. Many people have paid a various amount to have the opportunity to ask questions. I doubt many of them will be answered for a long time.
 
2theskyy said:
I’d have to say the questions are not free. Many people have paid a various amount to have the opportunity to ask questions. I doubt many of them will be answered for a long time.
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Paying various amounts simply increases the odds of eventually getting an answer. :cool:
 
mstrauss said:
Is anyone else getting multiple emails from [email protected] about the new engine contracts? I had two the first day, and just got another one today. I wonder if they are trying to work out the problem for those that have yet to be notified.
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Yes, I got 2 the first day, and 1 earlier today. I only have an engine deposit and LCPs
 
mstrauss said:
Is anyone else getting multiple emails from [email protected] about the new engine contracts? I had two the first day, and just got another one today. I wonder if they are trying to work out the problem for those that have yet to be notified.
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The team running the web portal used for the order review and acceptance was troubleshooting some issues and some extra emails were sent out as a result, I have been told. Apologies for the multiple emails.
 
greghughespdx said:
The team running the web portal used for the order review and acceptance was troubleshooting some issues and some extra emails were sent out as a result, I have been told. Apologies for the multiple emails.
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I got excited and thought maybe it was gonna be something for backorder items. I've been buying them piecemeal so I can keep going but the store doesn't let me buy the gear leg and I don't want to completely rebuy the brakes.
 
greghughespdx said:
The team running the web portal used for the order review and acceptance was troubleshooting some issues and some extra emails were sent out as a result, I have been told. Apologies for the multiple emails.
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Have all the LCP emails gone out? Or are there outstanding batches not yet sent?
 
jimbom said:
GREG HUGHES, CAN YOU HEAR ME?
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I do. My apologies. Unfortunately, my time to monitor and respond on the forums is limited right now. That's not my choice, and frankly I'd prefer to be here and help answer questions. It's just our reality right now. Everyone here, myself included, is being pulled in many different directions and working some highly-complex tasks for very long hours. I've spoken recently with some of you on the phone or conversed via email, all of which are appreciated. Some questions I don't know the answer to and I often don't yet have a clear answer. So, again, apologies for the delayed reading and limited responses.

jimbom said:
Those of us with empty mailboxes knowing others have their offers are very anxious that we've been overlooked.

Please tell us that you'll make it known when all engine contracts have been sent out (then, of course, follow through with that announcement.)
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Yes, we'll let you know when all the revised engine contracts have been sent out. We explained previously that they would be going out over the course of a few days. The final batch of orders is being prepared today and should go out soon.

jimbom said:
edit: Same request regarding LCP replacements ...
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We've been sending individual customers emails with their specific lists for a couple weeks, and have begun shipping replacement parts. We will be sending additional customers their individual emails and parts lists as well, starting next week. This process will take weeks or months, not days.

jimbom said:
(Also, where are my RV-10 seats? Shipping won't talk. Been backordered for a year and it is very apparent that new orders are getting theirs. What the?)
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RV-10 seats historically were made by a third party manufacturer, which slowed production and delivery to Van's substantially while also increasing our cost by approximately 2x. We have started producing our own RV-10 seat parts, which we will start shipping soon. We will announce more on this when that transition happens. There are times in this unusual bankruptcy recovery period when decisions have to be made to minimize costs and ensure healthy cash flow, which is not always the way we'd prefer to do things from a customer perspective. For example, we might need to ship parts to a customer with a kit delivery to avoid more backorder costs before everyone gets the same backordered parts. When this happens, it primarily is to ensure two things: First, that we are shipping things that ensure positive cash flow week to week; and second, that we are not creating more backorders to manage. With that said, both backorders and new orders are being fulfilled - but it is a slow process. I know that's not what any of us want; however, we will work through this and get to the point where things normalize.

Sorry that we cannot answer every question as soon as it is asked. It's important that we provide solid answers when we have them, and also that we are focused on the internal tasks that get parts out the door and get us through this period.

Thanks.
 
squeakersc063 said:
I got excited and thought maybe it was gonna be something for backorder items. I've been buying them piecemeal so I can keep going but the store doesn't let me buy the gear leg and I don't want to completely rebuy the brakes.
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We have the lists of customers' backordered items and we're working to fulfill those, too. You won't be getting an offer on the web portal for backordered kit items, because we plan to ship those to you without price adjustments.
 
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