...and who rebuilds an engine on an airplane with unrepairable corrosion? I would think the owner would consider the condition of the airframe prior to spending money on an engine rebuild. Either way, a $40k engine for $14K???? No red flags there!
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Engine Overhaul Fraud - my nightmare
- Thread starter skirting_virga
- Start date
Only an engeneer…
I suppose thats true, but right after an overhaul? Sorry, but highly suspicious.
Thanks. I think there's so much shady stuff going on in airplane engines right now because of the insane cost of everything. If it was local, the price would probably be worth the risk, but importing it from Europe is a non-starter.
Does anyone know if Airpower or someone can provide an overhauled engine on a shorter timeline than Lycoming? I should give them a call....
Tankerpilot75
Well Known Member
I’m finding this thread really interesting.
I thinking seriously about putting my RV7A up for sale this summer (age and body stiffness are becoming more of an issue). My concern is my aircraft’s value could be penalized because of a prop strike in 2022 at AirVenture. The engine was removed and sent to a major engine shop that goes every year to AirVenture for the tear down inspection and rebuild. I also had them check the valve guides and heads since the engine at that time had around 550 hours since new. When it was reinstalled at Oshkosh I had the shop install dual PMags since magneto replacement is part of the tear down/rebuild process and this was a convenient time to make this upgrade. Of course a new prop was required so I had the MT9 (three blade composite with heavy duty hub) installed. I spent the extra money (above what insurance covered) because I didn’t want the prop strike to negatively impact the aircraft’s value and of course for the performance improvements.
Now I’m wondering if this was money well spent? The engine has been flown approximately 120 hours since Oshkosh with two oil samples done showing normal results. What can I expect from the market and prebuy inspectors when I put this up for sale (which is not immediately). I will not allow a prebuy inspectors to pull a jug - just too many bad stories out there about this.
My original thinking was this type of inspection/rebuild process should give a buyer confidence in their potential purchase - not worry.
I thinking seriously about putting my RV7A up for sale this summer (age and body stiffness are becoming more of an issue). My concern is my aircraft’s value could be penalized because of a prop strike in 2022 at AirVenture. The engine was removed and sent to a major engine shop that goes every year to AirVenture for the tear down inspection and rebuild. I also had them check the valve guides and heads since the engine at that time had around 550 hours since new. When it was reinstalled at Oshkosh I had the shop install dual PMags since magneto replacement is part of the tear down/rebuild process and this was a convenient time to make this upgrade. Of course a new prop was required so I had the MT9 (three blade composite with heavy duty hub) installed. I spent the extra money (above what insurance covered) because I didn’t want the prop strike to negatively impact the aircraft’s value and of course for the performance improvements.
Now I’m wondering if this was money well spent? The engine has been flown approximately 120 hours since Oshkosh with two oil samples done showing normal results. What can I expect from the market and prebuy inspectors when I put this up for sale (which is not immediately). I will not allow a prebuy inspectors to pull a jug - just too many bad stories out there about this.
My original thinking was this type of inspection/rebuild process should give a buyer confidence in their potential purchase - not worry.
No question the mention of a prop strike will scare some prospective buyers away. The serious ones will check that the work done meets the required inspection/replacement for parts after a prop strike and base their decision on that. I think advertising it as having a prop strike will reduce the number of prospective buyers and make it a little harder to sell, but if the repair/overhaul work is properly documented it shouldn't have too much of a negative impact. You may end up a little lower on the pricing scale, depending on your patience level for selling. In my opinion it was money well spent, if for no other reason than your own peace of mind.
Several years ago, I was responsiblle for the maintenance of a glider club Super Cub tow plane. About 125 hrs out of an engine overhaul, the tow plane was stolen by a non pilot, who put it on its nose, striking the prop. In the process of setting up the prop strike inspection, I figured it would be best to send it back to the shop that did the previous overhaul. Now, I did expect there to be minor over and above cost in addition to the prop strike teardown, I didn’t expect the quote I got back. Essentially, all cylinders bad, camshaft worn out of limits, crank shaft worn beyond limits and the crankcase had been machined beyond limits. I have some history overhauling many Lycoming engines, so not without basic knowledge. In the discussion that followed, I first asked for the measurements that they took to make the determination that parts were worn beyond limits. They wanted to charge to provide that. Then, I reminded them that they did the overhaul just 125 hrs ago, and if they reassembled the engine with parts that were within service limits, as their log entry stated how was it that they were worn out in 125 hrs. They then attacked me for saying they did a bad job and it went downhill from there. I asked for the torn down engine back, for which they charged over $1500 plus shipping, cash before they would ship. I then identified a shop that I knew did good work and had the engine shipped there. All parts were found with good life left except that they found an unrepairable crack in the case something not noted by the first shop. Parts inspected and reworked and reassembled.
The first shop was dishonest and tried to overcharge for replacement parts not needed. I am certain a less knowledgable owner might have been convinced to pay. I am aware of some shops that would scrap parts from one engine and sell them into another customers engine. I don’t know that this shop was doing this though, but something fishy was going on.
The first shop was dishonest and tried to overcharge for replacement parts not needed. I am certain a less knowledgable owner might have been convinced to pay. I am aware of some shops that would scrap parts from one engine and sell them into another customers engine. I don’t know that this shop was doing this though, but something fishy was going on.
If the work was done by a reputable shop, there should only be a minor hit. Some buyers are overly picky and will walk away, but most will not. An intelligent buyers sees what you have done as valuable, as it has a recent thorough inspection inspiring confidence. Way better than buying a brand new engine that hasn’t been touched in 1000 hours. Who knows what is going on inside. This thread is all about bad actors fraudulently portraying quality work. That is pretty hard to avoid as is very hard to identify.
If all buyers walk away from anything that had major work or overhaul, there is not much of a pool to pick from. Even brand new engines are not immune from serious issues. Several ads for some serious stuff recently and saw a post the other day about bent pushrods from a stuck valve at less than 200 hours.
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Why not have the engine overhauled or perform IRAN by the reputable shop (what are they quoting for repair?) or overhaul yourself with the help of a competent/experienced A&P. What engine do you have? Is it an older narrow deck, non counter weighted version?
If the crank and case are ok, everything else should be an easy fix. How did the builder incorrectly assemble the case, a problem sealing or torquing? Cam and lifters are “almost” a throw away on overhaul. Sadly not surprising. If an older engine, is the cam gear integral to the camshaft, if not you will need accessory case mods to install a new style cam. Get the new Lycoming DLC coated lifters and you will likely never have a cam problem again. The main bearing was installed correctly on final case assembly or the crank would have never turned, after they peened it by incorrectly assembling the case halves the first time (Should have realized and replaced the bearing, but the bearing wear is not where the peen marks are?). Case fretting is not uncommon, does the case have dowels on all the thru studs? Likely not, and if not, have all mods installed at case overhaul. Were the cylinders new at overhaul or unknown used. If new should need little work, you had no compression problems. The piston pin plug wear is strange. Usually the tip is worn down not the sides like yours. What happened there, looks like latest piston plug style?
If replacing with new and you want more reliability get away from the 200 HP angle valve and install an injected parallel valve engine. Maybe it is more readily available and less expensive. The angle valve engines just seem to have more problems and are on the edge of design reliability. The lower the horse power the fewer the problems, especially as far as case fretting and cylinder work is concerned.
I am an A&P / IA and auto shop owner, am very comfortable working on engines (not volunteering), have done a fair amount of major internal engine work (auto and aircraft), have been supervised and taught by a local aircraft engine builder with a fantastic reputation before doing aircraft engine work on my own (built several engines with him), and feel this engine may be economically, reliably (for an angle valve) , and safely rebuildable.
I do understand that many would rather have new for peace of mind. Let’s see if I regret this post.
GM
If the crank and case are ok, everything else should be an easy fix. How did the builder incorrectly assemble the case, a problem sealing or torquing? Cam and lifters are “almost” a throw away on overhaul. Sadly not surprising. If an older engine, is the cam gear integral to the camshaft, if not you will need accessory case mods to install a new style cam. Get the new Lycoming DLC coated lifters and you will likely never have a cam problem again. The main bearing was installed correctly on final case assembly or the crank would have never turned, after they peened it by incorrectly assembling the case halves the first time (Should have realized and replaced the bearing, but the bearing wear is not where the peen marks are?). Case fretting is not uncommon, does the case have dowels on all the thru studs? Likely not, and if not, have all mods installed at case overhaul. Were the cylinders new at overhaul or unknown used. If new should need little work, you had no compression problems. The piston pin plug wear is strange. Usually the tip is worn down not the sides like yours. What happened there, looks like latest piston plug style?
If replacing with new and you want more reliability get away from the 200 HP angle valve and install an injected parallel valve engine. Maybe it is more readily available and less expensive. The angle valve engines just seem to have more problems and are on the edge of design reliability. The lower the horse power the fewer the problems, especially as far as case fretting and cylinder work is concerned.
I am an A&P / IA and auto shop owner, am very comfortable working on engines (not volunteering), have done a fair amount of major internal engine work (auto and aircraft), have been supervised and taught by a local aircraft engine builder with a fantastic reputation before doing aircraft engine work on my own (built several engines with him), and feel this engine may be economically, reliably (for an angle valve) , and safely rebuildable.
I do understand that many would rather have new for peace of mind. Let’s see if I regret this post.
GM
I'm actually not sure what "narrow deck" refers to. It's an angle valve engine, IO-360 A2B
The overhaul quote from them is ~45k and is likely to go up 10k if the crank is bad, and another 4-5k if the case is bad. That's a new engine price, but without a new engine wait. It's really shitty because either I'm looking at 75-100% of the cost of new and a 6mo turnaround or 100% the cost of new and 18 months of downtime. There are no good choices there.
The thread was misrouted in several places, resulting in fairly pronounced leakage. There was silicone in a couple places it should not be (creating space between case halves and supposedly fretting). There were several nuts that are supposedly directional and were installed upside down. For an engine to leak oil as badly as it did, after overhaul ~2.5 years prior to first flight, and only being flown for 4 years, suggests some sloppy assembly to me.
Plan was new cam, and DLC lifters. You obviously know more about the main bearing than I do, and I can see why you would say that, but by messing up the bearing alignment, even if it was noticed and corrected, it was negligent for the builder to just re-assemble without checking it.
Not sure about doweling. At least one stud appears to have doweling. I don't know what happened with the pin plugs, but I believe the engine shop is implying that the tolerances may have been wrong - potentially installed loose.
Unfortunately, the parallel valve engines are more readily available and less expensive, but anyone selling a newly overhauled one would need a core and I'm sure that would bring the price up. I have a core that happens to be angle valve, though I can't confirm which parts are good or not. My attitude towards the engine is that I would like either the same power or more power because I live and fly in Colorado and can use every last bit of climb and cruise performance at these density altitudes. Effectively the minimum XC altitude here is 7500 feet and 10k is extremely common. When crossing the mountains I'd fly at 12-14k plus and I need all the power I can get.
I was dead set on 10:1 compression pistons with this engine before the shop told me they cause poor oil consumption. If changing in any direction I would want an IO-390. I guess reliability is fairly persuasive and I'm happy to listen to arguments for it, however.
I'm pretty close to a layperson so I just have to go on what experienced people like yourself and the engine shop have given me. The shop that disassembled my engine has a local reputation for good work and they are the best local resource for handling an overhaul, as far as I can tell. They were kind enough to walk me through the problems in person before quoting me for the overhaul, and the $45k price (+crank? +case?) is more likely attributable to the present level of demand and complete lack of parts supply. I'm under the impression that given the history of the engine this shop would not put their name on something without dotting every i and crossing every t on the overhaul as though it were a certified airplane. I haven't asked about reusing cylinders. My risk tolerance dictates it should probably be overhauled and not IRAN, but it's worth noting that the metal debris caused damage throughout the engine.
I appreciate your input, but I don't see a way out. This is minimum 45k for an overhaul, possibly ballooning to 60k. All the alternatives look like used engines or overhauls of similar cost with less certainty about the track record of the work. Or an 18mo wait from Lycoming.
skylor
Well Known Member
This is the first time I've ever heard that! Obviously Lycoming disagrees with you because they've managed to push and certify essentially the same engine up to 390 CI displacement and 215 horsepower. What exactly is on the edge of design reliability?
Skylor
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Paul Thomas
Well Known Member
Criminal charges may be appropriate; I believe both the Feds and State have convicted people for falsely representing their credentials.
I've actually seen your engine disassembled first hand.... while I was picking my overhauled engine up from the same shop, they showed me your engine. Your case and crank didn't actually look to bad, aside from the dowel pins almost working their way through the front bearing. From the looks of it, your stuff seemed like it was serviceable.
The guy that put the engine together really had no clue what he was doing. I'm by no means an engine builder, but some stuff I was shown was just baffling.
The guy that put the engine together really had no clue what he was doing. I'm by no means an engine builder, but some stuff I was shown was just baffling.
Man, small world.
VF84Sluggo
Well Known Member
That’s the thing, no non-invasive way (as far as I know) to get a look at the innards…cam, crank, etc.
I have wondered if a borescope could be snaked in through the oil filler/dip stick tube. Might be impossible to keep oil from getting on the lens and blurring things up, or not possible to make the scope look around once in there.
The difference between an overhaul and an IRAN is the number of parts they’ll pitch just because. They could be perfectly good parts with only 260 hours on them.
You obviously trust the shop your engine is currently at. I would sit down with them and ask the question what is ‘good ‘and what is ‘not good’?
With a reputable shop doing your IRAN, you will have a motor that has been properly assembled with acceptable parts for about 1/3rd the price of an overhaul.
My daily driver is well past TBO and still making power, not making metal, and I’m not spending tens of thousands of dollars for recreational maintenance.
Is it possible to see anything through the crankcase vent?
VF84Sluggo
Well Known Member
Good question…
You’d think that since they can snake a thing up your ass and look all around in your guts, someone would have invented a similar thing to get a look inside an engine.
Lycoming had some issues back in the 1950s & 1960s with crankcases developing cracks around the cylinder bases. Those are the "standard aka narrow" deck engines. Starting in 1963, Lycoming introduced crankcases which are "beefed up" in this area. These are referred to as Wide Deck engines. The wide deck engine conversion took almost 10 years for all the various models to be updated.
Easy to tell the difference. The serial number on all wide deck engines end in the letter A. Easy visual way to tell is to look at the nuts holding the cylinders on [cylinder base nuts] The old Narrow Deck engines have SHCS [socket head cap screw aka Allen bolts] nuts. These are round on the OD. The Wide Deck engines use conventional hex head nuts to retain the cylinders to the crankcases. Shoot me a direct message if you want more info.
Charlie Kuss [rhymes with puss. German word for kiss]
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VF84Sluggo
Well Known Member
Yup. You see ads where the seller says stuff like, “10 hrs SMOH” and prices the plane like that’s a GOOD thing. Can’t imagine anyone NOT thinking, “You just overhauled the engine, and now you’re selling?! What went wrong?”
Even worse, 10 SMOH…and the “SMOH” was 3 years ago. There’s a plane for sale now that this is the case, and the seller is acting like this is worth a PREMIUM price.
This is why I searched the way I did. Came across one that was flown like 25h/y for like 15y. Old avionics. Fairly weathered airplane. Maybe ok, maybe not, but certainly not kept in a dry climate. Still wanted kind of a lot for it. I passed and found this plane that checked all the right boxes (200 smoh, flown 50h/y for 4 years, good oil analysis) but short of demanding a plane with a big name engine shop I don't know how I would have caught it.
Don’t kick yourself. This is mostly just plain bad luck. There is only so much you can do to prevent this. I recently did a top overhaul for a 7 that just had new cylinders put on 25 hours before sale. Owner put cam gaurd in after the work, so it never broke in. oil turned deep black within 2 hours! Had the cylinders overhauled be a very reputable shop. I flew it 20 hours for him to break it in. Guess what, at 20 hours it is still burning a quart in three hours. Something was not done right during the overhaul. Now i get to do it all over again. Sometimes $#*t happens. Don’t blame yourself.
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Only the gear train in the accy case area and doubt you could snake something in with the bends you would need to make.
Scratch that, there is a cover around the vent area to keep splash oil from going out the breather.
Allz ya gotta do is a search, people. Have a look at this thread: https://vansairforce.net/threads/lycoming-camshaft-inspection-question.223024/
or better yet, this one
Cam Inspection Without Pulling Jugs
Cam Inspection Without Pulling Jugs
Sounds like I have a wide deck engine then.
VF84Sluggo
Well Known Member
Us 'people' were looking for a way that wouldn't involve dropping sumps, pulling props or jugs, etc.; ya know, sumthin' that wouldn't require allz that invasive stuff. Probly hard tu git a seller to go along with allz that.
But nonetheless, thank you for your guidance.
skylor
Well Known Member
Stuff like this happens in the certified world too. The difference is that it often costs much more to fix issues in the certified world.
Skylor
