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Considering Verner 9s on a 7...

Clayvt

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I happen to have Brahn Sport Aircraft located at my home airport. They are one of the Verner importers and i know they have an RV 6a. I had a few hours to kill today so I stopped by to see if I could take a gander at the 6 in several spots to help in my 7 project.

We got on the topic of engines and while I'm just finishing up the wings i need to start seriously thinking about a motor with the current lead times. I called Continental a few months ago and they quoted around 45K and 18mos. We all know Lycoming is so backlogged you'd be lucky to see an engine before we put a man on mars...

Brahn said they would build the motor mount and help design and build the cowling, (mostly aluminum) with an 8 month lead time. They would work with Sensenich for a 3 bladed carbon prop.

I know about the RV8r, but no side by sides.

What do you guys think i can expect from this thing? is it worth considering? i know ill loose some top end speed with a big ole flat area out front, but for an estimated 35K total i think it might be worth considering. Am I crazy?

Plus.....Radial noises.....
 
I happen to have Brahn Sport Aircraft located at my home airport. They are one of the Verner importers and i know they have an RV 6a. I had a few hours to kill today so I stopped by to see if I could take a gander at the 6 in several spots to help in my 7 project.

We got on the topic of engines and while I'm just finishing up the wings i need to start seriously thinking about a motor with the current lead times. I called Continental a few months ago and they quoted around 45K and 18mos. We all know Lycoming is so backlogged you'd be lucky to see an engine before we put a man on mars...

Brahn said they would build the motor mount and help design and build the cowling, (mostly aluminum) with an 8 month lead time. They would work with Sensenich for a 3 bladed carbon prop.

I know about the RV8r, but no side by sides.

What do you guys think i can expect from this thing? is it worth considering? i know ill loose some top end speed with a big ole flat area out front, but for an estimated 35K total i think it might be worth considering. Am I crazy?

Plus.....Radial noises.....
Penny wise, dollar foolish. Don't be mad,,,,you asked.
 
Check Verner's installation and operating instructions. When I read them, they were more arduous than Lycomings. I'd expect some airframe mods would be necessary, too.

Nobody says you need to buy a brand new Lyc... people install used ones all the time.

Dave
 
If I were going outside of mainstream engines I think I would look at the UL Power engine. They have the power to give you good performance with a lot less work to install. There is support in the US and FWF kits for the RV4,8 & 12 are already available so the 7 shouldn't be too much of an issue. They have a number of aircraft using their power plant. FWIW.
 
The Verner is unique and has a cool factor, but not near as reliable as a lycoming. Parts aren't readily available and you will be in mostly on your own to make it work on the airframe
 
... snip...

We got on the topic of engines and while I'm just finishing up the wings i need to start seriously thinking about a motor with the current lead times. I called Continental a few months ago and they quoted around 45K and 18mos. We all know Lycoming is so backlogged you'd be lucky to see an engine before we put a man on mars...

... snip ...

I was in your shoes 20+ years ago. I visited every seminar hosted by engine manufacturers and I took every tour I could get Lycoming factory included. I was building the wings at that time.

Look realistically at your project. If you are able to finish the airframe within 18-24 months (time/funds allowed) order your engine NOW! I assume you already ordered the fuselage and your checkbook is ready for the finishing kit...

I am biased. I am flying behind one of the simplest Lycomings. O320D2G is my second carbon copy engine on my RV9A. The first engine I sold to a VAF member it surpassed 5K hours TTSN. It is now powering a Rans Outbound after an overhaul by a reputable shop. Crankshaft and camshaft were within limits.

My point here is if you enjoy tinkering and spacing your funds/time, keep doing whatcha doing. But if you are an adventurer and you want to get in the air asap to start exploring, fill that Lycoming order form right away and stay in your shop. Their motor will be build well ahead of your schedule.

Head north when you are done. It's a pretty territory up here :)

replacing the engine - 1.jpeg
 
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From the time my wings were done it took about 18 months or so before I was ready for an engine. Firewall aft systems and avionics eat up a bunch of time. Heck, if push came to shove, you could even do most of the finish kit before you really need the engine. If it were me I'd just order a Lycoming.
 
Appreciate the replies so far. keep em' coming. I'm open to any and all feedback
I have all the kits on hand so there is no waiting. I was able to get the empennage done and wings 80% done in about 8ish months (SB). It's on hold right now while I wait for my new house to be built by the end of this month. I estimate I have about 1 month left on the wings then its straight into the fuselage. If I can keep the same pace I was going, I think (we all know how that goes) I could have the fuselage done and ready for avionics/engine in about 12-15 months.

I have been keeping a build thread on another non-aviation site if you're interested.
Build thread
 
Appreciate the replies so far. keep em' coming. I'm open to any and all feedback
I have all the kits on hand so there is no waiting. I was able to get the empennage done and wings 80% done in about 8ish months (SB). It's on hold right now while I wait for my new house to be built by the end of this month. I estimate I have about 1 month left on the wings then its straight into the fuselage. If I can keep the same pace I was going, I think (we all know how that goes) I could have the fuselage done and ready for avionics/engine in about 12-15 months.

I have been keeping a build thread on another non-aviation site if you're interested.
Build thread


I really like the idea of a radial engine. I considered it strongly for my -7 until a 200HP 0-TSMOH AEIO-360-A1A fell into my lap for 32k including accessories. I think the sweetheart deal that I got on that is not likely to be seen again.

Realistically, the engine the plane was designed for is going to be optimal and easiest. If you're installing the radial, do it because it looks and sounds cool and you want something unique. If you do, please keep in touch -- I'd fly down to see it.

I'm strongly considering building a biplane or a high wing with a Verner radial after I finish up the -7
 
I would see if this version takes off-


The low oil tank system might be an issue for firewall height blending as much as any dimension.

Same for gear height vs optimal propeller.
 

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The Verner is unique and has a cool factor, but not near as reliable as a lycoming. Parts aren't readily available and you will be in mostly on your own to make it work on the airframe
Where are you getting that they are not reliable? Got any examples?
 
Where are you getting that they are not reliable? Got any examples?
Not as reliable as a Lycoming is what I said.
Now, a few years ago I was a dealer for Verner. They stand behind their product in a great way.
I built a Legal Eagle with the 3VW.
That being said, I wouldn't use one on a plane i plan on doing any traveling in or going over unfriendly terrain. I'm happy to speak with you about it, 713-417-2519 Frank
 
In my experience, there are a number of good reasons to use “alternative” engines - those that the airframe was not designed for, or those not designed originally as aircraft engines. But saving money is not one of those good reasons. Do it for the tinkering, do it for the “wow” factor at fly-ins and airshows, do it because you want to experiment with new ideas. But if you do it to save money, you’ll probably be disappointed.

I get that new Lycomings are priced in the stratosphere - personally, I am done with them. There are still used engines out there - to run, or to use as rebuild cores - that can get you into the air without driving you to bankruptcy. I honestly believe that just as those types of engines were the genesis of the homebuilding movement, they are also our future.

Paul
 
I happen to have Brahn Sport Aircraft located at my home airport. They are one of the Verner importers and i know they have an RV 6a. I had a few hours to kill today so I stopped by to see if I could take a gander at the 6 in several spots to help in my 7 project.

We got on the topic of engines and while I'm just finishing up the wings i need to start seriously thinking about a motor with the current lead times. I called Continental a few months ago and they quoted around 45K and 18mos. We all know Lycoming is so backlogged you'd be lucky to see an engine before we put a man on mars...

Brahn said they would build the motor mount and help design and build the cowling, (mostly aluminum) with an 8 month lead time. They would work with Sensenich for a 3 bladed carbon prop.

I know about the RV8r, but no side by sides.

What do you guys think i can expect from this thing? is it worth considering? i know ill loose some top end speed with a big ole flat area out front, but for an estimated 35K total i think it might be worth considering. Am I crazy?

Plus.....Radial noises.....
I can tell you first hand, this engine does not like leaded fuel. My hangar neighbor has one and even with TCP additive, he was bending pushrods and breaking rocker arms. Had to switch to unleaded fuels to stop the problems. Few airports have mogas so you will be tankering fuel most of the time from gas stations
 
In my experience, there are a number of good reasons to use “alternative” engines - those that the airframe was not designed for, or those not designed originally as aircraft engines. But saving money is not one of those good reasons. Do it for the tinkering, do it for the “wow” factor at fly-ins and airshows, do it because you want to experiment with new ideas. But if you do it to save money, you’ll probably be disappointed.

I get that new Lycomings are priced in the stratosphere - personally, I am done with them. There are still used engines out there - to run, or to use as rebuild cores - that can get you into the air without driving you to bankruptcy. I honestly believe that just as those types of engines were the genesis of the homebuilding movement, they are also our future.

Paul
I have to agree with PD here. If you are serial builder and love to experiment/change things up - and not planning on selling it any time soon - then I say go for it. It might be fun, and certainly educational. However, if you may want to sell it any time soon (within 10 years), be advised. People that typically buy used homebuilts (not builders/experimenters) probably won’t share your enthusiasm for going off in that other direction. RV’s have become, basically, mainstream. Non-builder types expect that same thing, and they have been willing to pay big bucks for that. Asking someone to pay anything close to what is now considered “standard” could be a false hope. But like I said - this is just for you, and if that experimental bug is alive and well in you, then more power to you. I’ll be interested in reading about your outcome.
 
I am building a project with a Verner 9S (not an RV) so I think I can add some helpful observations here.

I ordered my Verner 9S last March. It arrived in September, as promised. This, despite the massive flooding that occurred at about that time in Central Europe. Apparently a number of the factory workers had damage to their homes, and an important bridge washed out on the highway, so one of the workers put my engine in a light truck and drove some distance on back roads to get it to a shipping hub.
It is beautifully made.

Some thoughts on the engine itself for you to consider:

• It is shipped with a rather crude motorcycle carburetor, which has no mixture control. There are a number of solutions to better carburetion. I am adapting a Marvel Schebler HA-6 side-draft carb from a Cessna 172RG. Several folks have used throttle-body injection -- I think Brett even offers one. Brian Kelly at RadialConversions (the builder of the RV8R) is developing an integral engine back plate that incorporates throttle-body injection and accepts an FM-150 servo. (this seems like a really good solution).
There have been a couple of port-injection systems adapted. Brian Kelly machined his cylinder heads to accept a Bendix fuel injector, and adapted an 8-port spider to supply the nine cylinders. This is flying and working great on Brian's RV8R, but he and Don Rivera insist this was a one-off and have no interest in helping anyone replicate it. There is a builder in Santa Cruz that bonded injector bosses to the composite induction tubes, and I *think* he is adapting an SDS injection with a crank position sensor installed in an adapter/prop extension. (I don't believe he has run that engine yet). Port injection is/would be a great solution because Verners suffer from very uneven mixture distribution attributed to 'gravity effects' - this is apparently common among radial engines.

• The engine has an integrated "alternator" that consists of a rotor/stator on the crank flange and crankcase, and a separate rectifier/regulator unit. It is rated at 16 amps. This is a pretty small power budget for anything other than a day-VFR simple airplane. There is no accessory mounting feature that would enable installation of a second, or different alternator. The 16-amp system would be further taxed by the need for continuous electric fuel pumps for a low-wing airplane - although Brian's RV8R seems to work OK, with a glass panel, electric fuel pumps, etc.

• As mentioned above, there is no accessory case that would enable installation of a magneto, alternator, crank-angle sensor, engine-driven fuel pump, etc.

• The engine is supplied with a dual electronic ignition, which by all accounts is very solid. But it does mean that you have an all-electric engine. (and no accommodation to install a second alternator).

• Getting adequate cylinder cooling in an enclosed cowl requires careful baffling. Brian Kelly has evolved his baffling arrangement over time in his RV8R, and has a good set-up now. He is tooling up to make carbon-fiber inter-cylinder baffles available to others.

• The Verner is a dry-sump engine relying on gravity drain of case and cylinder head oil into an oil tank mounted below the engine. Several builders have used a faired pod on the belly with both the oil cooler and oil tank. Brett does supply an oil tank, but it is very wide, which is difficult to incorporate into an aerodynamic pod. I am making a custom oil tank.

Many of these factors suggest that the engine is well-suited for its intended purpose - simple airplanes such as WW I replicas, biplanes, etc. that are primarily low-and-slow fun airplanes, but not necessarily a good choice for a fast, long-distance cross-country traveling airplane.


Some comments on the reliability of Verner radials:

The biggest vulnerability seems to be damaged valve trains due to sticky valves from running 100LL. The factory is adamant about using unleaded fuel. It may be that this is more of an issue for a radial because the lower cylinders run rather rich (gravity effects on mixture distribution).

There have been a few instances of builders chasing oil leaks at cylinder flanges, warped cylinder heads, things like that.

Originally the Verner factory recommended SAE 60 weight engine oil, and there were apparently some burst oil filters from starting cold. The metric automotive oil filter size does not incorporate a bypass valve, and there do not appear to be any available filters in that size that do. The factory now recommends SAE 20-50 oil. I plan to make an adapter to fit american-size oil filters, and I will select one with a bypass valve.

A few folks have commented on the asthetics of putting a radial on a side-by-side. It certainly has been done. The Spartan Executive comes to mind. With a well-done cowl, it could be a unique and striking airplane.

Any time you depart from plans, you buy yourself more tinkering. Fitting any alternative engine requires a huge chunk of roll-your-own development and fabrication. Fitting a radial to a design intended for a flat engine requires even more custom work. I completely re-lofted the fuselage formers for my Hatz biplane to blend well into a round engine. I'm finding the project very satisfying. If you take this on, do it because you enjoy building, especially roll-your-own development. Do it because it will allow you to build a unique, interesting airplane. DO NOT do it to save money on an engine!!!
 
A few folks have commented on the asthetics of putting a radial on a side-by-side. It certainly has been done. The Spartan Executive comes to mind. With a well-done cowl, it could be a unique and striking airplane.
It's not the singular fact of a side by side seating arrangement - "I" was referring specifically to the RV SBS... THOSE have a very shallow firewall compared to their width. As one who did the initial fitting of an RV-6 cowl to my Piper Pacer, the firewall depth mismatch is a significant aesthetic challenge. That, coupled with the radically lowered prop shaft compared to the traditional RV waterline position makes for some added fun. And for the record, I always thought the Kitfoxes with the blister radial cowl looked goofy - mainly for the poor handling of the challenges cited above.
 
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It's not the singular fact of a side by side seating arrangement - "I" was referring specifically to the RV SBS... THOSE have a very shallow firewall compared to their depth. As one who did the initial fitting of an RV-6 cowl to my Piper Pacer, the firewall depth mismatch is a significant aesthetic challenge. That, coupled with the radically lowered prop shaft compared to the traditional RV waterline position makes for some added fun. And for the record, I always thought the Kitfoxes with the blister radial cowl looked goofy - mainly for the poor handling of the challenges cited above.
I have to agree with Michael on this - the lower thrustline is a big challenge. But Brian Kelly managed it pretty well on the -8.

The devil is in the details.
 
There are LOTS and LOTS of devils in the details . To the original question of a radial on an RV ? The cool factor is indeed off the charts but, and it’s a BIG but THE JUICE AIN’ T WORTH THE SQUEEZE ! Absolutely everything , yes EVER SINGLE THING firewall forward is a one off prototype that took several redos to get it correct . ALL engine controls are totally unique and require EXTENSIVE prototyping . Also required SUBSTANTIAL MODIFICATIONS to the fuselage to accommodate the longer landing gear to get clearance for the long propeller.
So if you wanna fly STICK WITH THE PLANS . If you want to tinker and generate a HUGE PILE of almost right parts use an off plan engine if you wanna create a TREMENDOUSLY MASSIVE pile of almost workable parts that can’t be used for anything else, then by all means install a radial engine in an RV.
Did I personally enjoy the journey and the challenge ? Very much so ! Would I do it again NO!!!!! ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!!
 

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How quick do you think you can build? Step back and take an honest look at your life and try to accurately answer that question. I asked because I’m in a season of life where I can’t seem to get to the airport to wrench on my project near as much as I used to. In fact, if I get there one day a week I’m doing pretty good these days, and I usually want to fly instead of build if the weather permits these days. My point being that if the timeline is your biggest concern, I’d guess it will take you longer to build the airframe than it will take to get the engine so just order the Lycoming or as Paul Dye says get a used one (keep your eyes out for one that is either useable or a decent core) and you will have it before you need it.
 
Well, I appreciate all the thoughts and will shelf this idea for the next project. I'll just put an order in with Continental in the next few months unless a used motor jumps out of the woodwork.
...What about a radial RV15?
 
I wish they would make a double-row 9
I would love to see a two row 7 but the crank shaft would need dynamic balancers. I don't think Verner is interested in developing those. Also the 11 cylinder is no longer being developed as Kamil just doesn't have the time due to his current order backlog. The 11 cylinder would fill a hole in the market for small radial engines (180 hp) but the diameter is going to be quite large. It would definitely be a good candidate for my low profile valve covers.
 
Next thing you know somebody is going to want to put retracts on an RV. Oh wait!
Teasing. But can you imagine the radial 8 with retracts painted like an F4F with a Horton Air Cannon? No train would be safe!
I think the radial 8 is a super interesting and cool example of what we can do in this hobby. (“We” as in somebody else. I’m too lazy)
 
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