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Business Announcement From Van's Founder Dick Vangrunsven

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I will be forever grateful to Dick Vangrunsven for what he has accomplished! Building my own airplane is something I don't think I could have ever done without his vision and the Van's community. It has brought me so much enjoyment and a host of new friends. It all started with Dick Vangrunsven's passion for design and affinity for homebuilders. Thank you Mr. Vangrunsven for your contributions to our community!!!

I won't speculate about what could (or should) happen in the future (bankruptcy, IPO, private equity, etc...). But, one thing is certain, change. Those changes will be good for the health of the company, BUT there will be change.

My prayer is that the "soul" of the company doesn't get lost in the shuffle. At its core, Van's is a company that is passionate about serving the homebuilders market. Without a doubt some needed changes will be made. I just hope the pendulum doesn't swing so far with those changes that the soul of the company gets lost in the mix.

Whatever happens in the future with Van's aircraft, I will ALWAYS be greatful for the gift of homebuilding they provided me!!!
 
BTG1996 said:
I wasn't aware of that- good info. I incorrectly assumed the 14 had overtaken the 7 as two-seater of choice.
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Straight from Vans. The -14 is not even close. 11,276 total Vans aircraft completed as of September 2023. I wouldn't think there would be over 1700 -14 builds in the works to catch up to the -7 anytime soon.

Where do I order my -15? ;)

Here's hoping Vans makes it out the back side of this storm. I'm off to order some parts.
 

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I think with the high build cost of the 14, the -7/7A will be more likely catch up with the 6 before the 14, even if it is relatively easier to build the 14

rvanstory said:
I won't speculate about what could (or should) happen in the future (bankruptcy, IPO, private equity, etc...). But, one thing is certain, change. Those changes will be good for the health of the company, BUT there will be change.
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One thing for certain is business needs orders. I just ordered a bunch of christmas gift items.
 
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rvanstory said:
I will be forever grateful to Dick Vangrunsven for what he has accomplished! Building my own airplane is something I don't think I could have ever done without his vision and the Van's community. It has brought me so much enjoyment and a host of new friends. It all started with Dick Vangrunsven's passion for design and affinity for homebuilders. Thank you Mr. Vangrunsven for your contributions to our community!!!

I won't speculate about what could (or should) happen in the future (bankruptcy, IPO, private equity, etc...). But, one thing is certain, change. Those changes will be good for the health of the company, BUT there will be change.

My prayer is that the "soul" of the company doesn't get lost in the shuffle. At its core, Van's is a company that is passionate about serving the homebuilders market. Without a doubt some needed changes will be made. I just hope the pendulum doesn't swing so far with those changes that the soul of the company gets lost in the mix.

Whatever happens in the future with Van's aircraft, I will ALWAYS be greatful for the gift of homebuilding they provided me!!!
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Very nice!
 
bkervaski said:
Considering the potential liability, headaches, and reserves needed to handle issues I think they should axe the QB program entirely, the math simply doesn't work, regardless of what company it falls under. Those *very few* who are willing to pay what it actually costs can find plenty of people and builder assist shops to give them a head start.

Let Vans focus on quality parts. They don't have a demand issue so no need for a QB program [at this time] imho.
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Agreed. Let the QB's go to the builder assist shops, and keep Vans doing what they do best - sell kits. I'm even a fan of spinning off the LSA 12 model and getting that set up as a separate entity that buys the -12 kit from Vans, assembles it and sells it as an LSA.

Simple worked for Vans for almost 5 decades - it will still work.
 
Snowflake said:
There are lots of RV-3 and RV-6 builders and owners out there who are "orphaned" as the kits are no longer available. Actually I think the -3 came back, didn't it? But the -6 was orphaned with a lot of people still building. Not "lot" as compared to people building -7's, but i'm sure the number wasn't insignificant. They did commit to continuing to make -6 parts as needed.
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According to Vans website, you can still order a 3 or 4 kit today. The production may be well out in the future, but it's available.
 
gmcjetpilot said:
I looked at Van's linkedin. List 61 employees, and increase in staff last 3 years. I was surprised at how many "officers" Van's has, CEO, directors, managers of many departments. Do you need a CEO or Director of marketing? It kind of sells itself.

.
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Yes, A CEO and Marketing Director are needed. They are two of the most important positions along side operations. Van's doesn't sell itself, the company image and people sell kits. The Vans image, customer perception of trust, and success are directly linked to theses positions. Along with design, engineering, and production. It all works together like a watch.

Could you imagine a website that was all text links, no images and a POS? Kits would not sell themselves, there would be less trust.
 
"I will be forever grateful to Dick Vangrunsven for what he has accomplished! Building my own airplane is something I don't think I could have ever done without his vision and the Van's community. It has brought me so much enjoyment and a host of new friends. It all started with Dick Vangrunsven's passion for design and affinity for homebuilders. Thank you Mr. Vangrunsven for your contributions to our community!!!" by rvanstory

AMEN Randy, well said... my journey started in 2006, acquiring a "second hand" unfinished RV-6A kit (QB acquired originally in 1997). The first hand owner did almost nothing, and stored in his hangar for 9 yrs. It was still a 10 yr journey for me but has been a life changing accomplishment. THANK YOU VAN'S ... someday I'll be a repeat offender! (-14A).
 
This was the poll I ran this past year, draw your own conclusions...
 

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rvanstory said:
I will be forever grateful to Dick Vangrunsven for what he has accomplished! Building my own airplane is something I don't think I could have ever done without his vision and the Van's community. It has brought me so much enjoyment and a host of new friends. It all started with Dick Vangrunsven's passion for design and affinity for homebuilders. Thank you Mr. Vangrunsven for your contributions to our community!!!

I won't speculate about what could (or should) happen in the future (bankruptcy, IPO, private equity, etc...). But, one thing is certain, change. Those changes will be good for the health of the company, BUT there will be change.

My prayer is that the "soul" of the company doesn't get lost in the shuffle. At its core, Van's is a company that is passionate about serving the homebuilders market. Without a doubt some needed changes will be made. I just hope the pendulum doesn't swing so far with those changes that the soul of the company gets lost in the mix.

Whatever happens in the future with Van's aircraft, I will ALWAYS be greatful for the gift of homebuilding they provided me!!!
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I was thinking of how to express my thoughts about Vans, and my gratitude for my RV4, since this thread emerged. Randy said better than I could. Thank you Van. May your legacy live long and prosper.
 
Lets us help Vans

I would like to help Vans recover from their distress.

Lets us repeat offenders help replace the LCP parts with free labor, in exchange put us at the top of the list for the rv15 kits.

I dont see Vans being able to afford reworking LCP kits, that labor has to be cost prohibited. But making replacement parts might be financially doable. So let us repeat offenders help Vans recover from this mess, but give us a golden ticket with the rv 15.
 
I'm doing my part to help cash flow. There is a flap position sensor I need. $5 cheaper at Spruce, $6 cheaper at SteinAir. But I will buy it from Van's since they have it in stock and need to turn inventory into cash.
 
Makes sense why they have so many models and have been so successful- I was sorely mistaken about orders consolidating to a few models....this business is not like building Honda's. Haha.

On a brighter note, I ordered some parts last night and needed to make a change- I emailed Vans and got a response back this morning that they were able to make the change and would be shipping them soon.

In my experience, the customer service at Vans cannot be understated. Technical support answers the phone and is knowledgeable, parts folks are ready to assist, and equally importantly- most parts are available.

Vans is great and they'll get thru this.
 
Carlos151 said:
Straight from Vans. The -14 is not even close. 11,276 total Vans aircraft completed as of September 2023. I wouldn't think there would be over 1700 -14 builds in the works to catch up to the -7 anytime soon.
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That is completed kits. I wonder how many are out there being built currently by type? I would guess the 14 will see a huge increase in completions over the next few years. But I am just guessing. I know I would love to build a 14a, but the price increases on everything over the past few years killed that plan. Oh well.
 
Kmdpilot said:
That is completed kits. I wonder how many are out there being built currently by type? I would guess the 14 will see a huge increase in completions over the next few years. But I am just guessing. I know I would love to build a 14a, but the price increases on everything over the past few years killed that plan. Oh well.
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I think one major cost item for the 14 is the IO-390 engine. You just cannot get a used engine to rebuild like the 360 engine. However, all the 14 that arrived at the Corona Paint shop close to where I hangar, all of them are very well equipped with multiple EFIS, IFR, and plush interior. But then, there will be fewer people who can afford to build out a 14 compare to the 7. Based on the LCP discussion, most of the potential builders, at least the most vocal one, had no problem paying in cash for all the QB kits, engine + CS propeller in one go.
 
Accelerating revenue

I've said this a few times on the forums but I don't think I have stated it quite the right way previously. I'm talking about my specific situation (was almost done with my tail kit when the news broke), but I'm sure it applies to others as well.

My future revenue to Van's is approximately $55,000 (and that's before any price increases). As of today, that revenue has been delayed by approximately 9-12 months (I have stopped building for 4 months, and I need to rebuild most of what I already built).

The cost to get me building again right now is about $100 at the prices on Van's website. That replaces the tailcone lasercut pieces. My concern is that as of today, 4 months after this happened, they apparently don't even have the components available. So, for $100, they have deferred $55,000 by about half a year. That doesn't seem like it is helping their cash flow.

In other words, if there had been a mechanism in place fairly quickly to prioritize replacement parts, the delay of future revenue would have been about 6 months less. At some point I also need replacement parts for the completed components, but I could have been finishing my tailcone this whole time. Van's needs to be prioritizing future cash flows, in my opinion.

It's unclear to me what parts, if any, Van's has been manufacturing. It's definitely unclear to me what has happened to those parts. But from what I can tell, most people have not received any replacements, which probably means that most builders have also stopped building like I have.
 
PilotjohnS said:
I would like to help Vans recover from their distress.

Lets us repeat offenders help replace the LCP parts with free labor, in exchange put us at the top of the list for the rv15 kits.

I dont see Vans being able to afford reworking LCP kits, that labor has to be cost prohibited. But making replacement parts might be financially doable. So let us repeat offenders help Vans recover from this mess, but give us a golden ticket with the rv 15.
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I'm in. :D
 
cgarts1 said:
Why not? The Vans -14 dragger prototype has the 360 engine it with very similar performance.

https://www.vansaircraft.com/rv-14/#aircraft-details-2
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No argument from me about this point. But I think the 14 is designed for the 390 engine. My -8 can fly perfectly well with the 320 but most -8 are built using the 360, and the reason at minimum is the resale prices for the 360 is better. So the 14 that I saw when the builder has no problem with money, he chooses the 390, in many cases, its the more expensive thunderbolt version
 
Ironflight said:
For those looking for a little rational background after 34 pages of posts on the topic, our friend (and multiple RV-owner) Ed Hicks over at Flyer Magazine wrote a very well-reasoned analysis of just how things built up to where they are at Van’s.

It’s worth a read if you have a few minutes….

https://flyer.co.uk/feature/how-did-vans-aircraft-get-into-this-mess/

Paul
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Thanks, that was informative. It's also interesting what they said about Glasair:

"...By 2000, however, the company’s low profit margins finally led to bankruptcy."

I guess those at Glasair have never watched Shark Tank because the sharks are always telling the entrepreneurs "that's not enough margin to stay in business !!"
 
I agree with Brantel
We’re 100% with you Van ….would be pleased to help anyway we can….
(Go fund me to raise some cash?……)
Don’t give up…this too shall pass
Pls don’t sell to foreign interests.
 
kirkbauer said:
I've said this a few times on the forums but I don't think I have stated it quite the right way previously. I'm talking about my specific situation (was almost done with my tail kit when the news broke), but I'm sure it applies to others as well.

My future revenue to Van's is approximately $55,000 (and that's before any price increases). As of today, that revenue has been delayed by approximately 9-12 months (I have stopped building for 4 months, and I need to rebuild most of what I already built).

The cost to get me building again right now is about $100 at the prices on Van's website. That replaces the tailcone lasercut pieces. My concern is that as of today, 4 months after this happened, they apparently don't even have the components available. So, for $100, they have deferred $55,000 by about half a year. That doesn't seem like it is helping their cash flow.

In other words, if there had been a mechanism in place fairly quickly to prioritize replacement parts, the delay of future revenue would have been about 6 months less. At some point I also need replacement parts for the completed components, but I could have been finishing my tailcone this whole time. Van's needs to be prioritizing future cash flows, in my opinion.

It's unclear to me what parts, if any, Van's has been manufacturing. It's definitely unclear to me what has happened to those parts. But from what I can tell, most people have not received any replacements, which probably means that most builders have also stopped building like I have.
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I don’t agree with suggesting what Van’s should do - they know their position and circumstances best; however, I do agree with the sentiment about hundreds holding up tens of thousands. I want 317 parts across three kits to eliminate laser cut parts; however, I don’t want them all at once. I’d accept the empennage subset now ($1167), then fuselage ($1603) at a later date, then wings ($1661) at a still later date to help spread out the impact. If I could get that sort of arrangement / agreement from Van’s, I would withdraw my recent actions and order a finishing kit, engine (TB IO-390-EXP119), and prop immediately.

The problem I have right now is that I have received no response from Van’s in four months while others seem to have no problem getting their attention (and I’ve been exceedingly polite, not brutish at all. Being a jerk isn’t my thing). I’m talking about what… almost $90k worth of business that hinges on a simple agreement? Please talk to me, Van’s (after the current review is done in mid-Nov). I’d like this not to implode.
 
Ironflight said:
For those looking for a little rational background after 34 pages of posts on the topic, our friend (and multiple RV-owner) Ed Hicks over at Flyer Magazine wrote a very well-reasoned analysis of just how things built up to where they are at Van’s.

It’s worth a read if you have a few minutes….

https://flyer.co.uk/feature/how-did-vans-aircraft-get-into-this-mess/

Paul
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The only thing this article really missed is that Vans told us to “build on” when LCP’s showed up with pretty crappy holes and the delay to accept that there was an issue likely doubled the number of kits.
 
dstates said:
The only thing this article really missed is that Vans told us to “build on” when LCP’s showed up with pretty crappy holes and the delay to accept that there was an issue likely doubled the number of kits.
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I think here is where from a monetary standpoint they have to decide what an "issue" is. All of their engineering and testing indicates that even with the cracked dimples the structure is still not going to fail. If it means the difference between insolvency and being able to carry on their business they would be well within their rights to continue saying build on. If people are uncomfortable with the engineers disposition they can happily pay out of pocket. I spent years getting engineers dispositions on screwed up fighter jet parts and from a production standpoint the answer was always to press with the aircraft engineers' answer.
 
squeakersc063 said:
I think here is where from a monetary standpoint they have to decide what an "issue" is. All of their engineering and testing indicates that even with the cracked dimples the structure is still not going to fail. If it means the difference between insolvency and being able to carry on their business they would be well within their rights to continue saying build on. If people are uncomfortable with the engineers disposition they can happily pay out of pocket. I spent years getting engineers dispositions on screwed up fighter jet parts and from a production standpoint the answer was always to press with the aircraft engineers' answer.
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I’m guessing those dispositions you received were for individual parts and situations, not a blanket statement.
I’m not arguing the results, I would just like some more information. Rian gave many more technical details at Oshkosh (if you were there, not all 1800 affected customers were) than any of the official statements. Maybe my problem is that I’m a structural engineer by trade and I’d like to hear how they came to their assessment.

If Vans truly wants more people to accept their decision they should give us more info and I bet there would be fewer parts on people’s LCP portals. All it would take is a video from Rian continuing his talk from Oshkosh.
 
dstates said:
I’m guessing those dispositions you received were for individual parts and situations, not a blanket statement.
I’m not arguing the results, I would just like some more information...snip... I’m a structural engineer by trade and I’d like to hear how they came to their assessment..
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I was a structural engineer as well. As you know every plane out there has a structural defect somewhere. This lead to damage damage tolerance philosophy. Before ultimate strength, fail safe, fatigue were the considerations assuming structure was perfect. No plane is defect free. With dsmage tolerance you assume defects and design for that. Now inspections are key. The factors are:

Defect small and not critical
Defect does not grow and become critical
Defects are not over wide area and close together
Defects, inspections method and periods find crack before being critical
Critical defined as loss of design strength.

What is the part? Is it primary structure that failure would cause loss of aircraft, wing spar for example.

So no blanket approval can be made as you said. However, if you can inspect area and do it often enough, you can maintain airworthiness. If part is critical and hidden that is a problem. Inspections can be more difficult to maintain that margin of safety. Not impossible just harder.

Second and most likely or very likely the stress is so low, LCP defects will never reach a threshold and grow... I think that's where blanket statements could be made. You need load, stress and cycles. If stress is low, cycles low, defect may never become an issue.
 
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Another guy just put his 14 project up for sale since he didn't want to deal with the LCP. Seems like what ccalrson wants is zero-LCP part even if Vans releases a statement saying the LCP parts do not affect the structural integrity of the airplane. Some parts in the airplane has LCP but he shows 0% progress on everything, I mean everything has 0% progress. I remember deburring my empennage the weekend it arrived at my house. Yeah, I really wanted to build. It was like Christmas morning in the middle of September. If you are a builder, you build, you sometime drill out parts you messed up, you redo stuff, sometime you live with the mistakes especially when they aren't critical and build on. Just put up the kit for sale and sleep better at night. But I really think what he wants to get his money back and why he left his kit untouched.
 
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I also want VANS to overcome this crisis and I want to help!
Being flexible, putting up with long waits, agreeing to change a QB kit for a slow build one, buying more material and gift items... even if necessary paying for the green and blue LCP parts.

But having to listen to people not involved here... pay or sell the kit... makes your blood boil! Or worse, [ed. Removed rules violation. dr] with an LCP plane because the engineers say it's OK (but I have my great plane without LCP in my hangar)!

We don't want VANS to fail, we just want what we paid for! Reading things like that on the forum doesn't help us at all... nor do I think it helps VANS either.
 
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squeakersc063 said:
I think here is where from a monetary standpoint they have to decide what an "issue" is. All of their engineering and testing indicates that even with the cracked dimples the structure is still not going to fail. If it means the difference between insolvency and being able to carry on their business, they would be well within their rights to continue saying build on.

If people are uncomfortable with the engineers disposition they can happily pay out of pocket. I spent years getting engineers dispositions on screwed up fighter jet parts and from a production standpoint the answer was always to press on with the aircraft engineers' answer.
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As soon as Vans commits to accepting the return of LCP’s and placing them back into their general inventory, I will gladly start using them in my build. Might as well spread the risk out among as many builders as possible. If the parts are safe and equivalent to punched parts, this is the easiest way to rectify this issue. Otherwise it’s a double standard for them to say we’re not going to use these parts in our kits any longer and no you can’t exchange these parts for punched versions or return them for credit. I have faith that given time, they will change their stance on this.
 
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CaptPausert said:
My biggest concern is that if Vans restructures that they might discontinue the RV-9 and I wouldn't be able to get the fuselage and finishing kits.
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BTG1996 said:
Agree with others that they need to retire models and streamline- new orders for the 10, 12, and 14 only....and roll out the 15 only once the turnaround is complete.
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roadrunner20 said:
You couldn't discontinue those models where you have a customer base in mid-build. You would orphan all those kits. The customer base would never trust Van's again. But, you could possibly offer a date in the future, where they would be unavailable, lets say 5 years. This would give the builder an opportunity to expedite their build and/or order it prior to any cutoff date.
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BTG1996 said:
Not saying to not support builders finishing their kits, I would just trim the lineup for new orders to get scale.
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gmcjetpilot said:
Van already discontinued the RV4 and RV6 Kits.
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Snowflake said:
There are lots of RV-3 and RV-6 builders and owners out there who are "orphaned" as the kits are no longer available. Actually I think the -3 came back, didn't it? But the -6 was orphaned with a lot of people still building.
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gmcjetpilot and Snowflake are mistaken. Van's has never discontinued the -3 or the -4. (I vaguely remember Van saying, in an interview or podcast or webinar in the past year or two, that they still sell a handful per year). And although Van's discontinued the -6/6A, this just meant that no one was allowed to start a new -6/6A. If you bought a -6/6A kit in the past, e.g. a tail kit, Van's will still sell you the subsequent kits, even now.

What Van's did do was: In late 2017, they said that RV-3/4/6/6A orders had slowed to a trickle, so they would only make -3/4/6/6A parts about once per year:

https://www.vansaircraft.com/2017/12/notice-to-all-rv-34-and-6-builders/

So, as far as I can tell, no one is orphaned. You can certainly still get parts and customer support for the RV-3 and RV-6, I know this from personal experience.

gasman said:
The seven replaced the six, that was the most popular kit aircraft EVER. Even though they stopped shipping RV6 emp kits 20 years ago. The RV7 is the current most popular kit..... I don't think Van's will drop the 7,8, or the 9.
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PhatRV said:
I think with the high build cost of the 14, the -7/7A will be more likely catch up with the 6 before the 14...
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Carlos151 said:
Straight from Vans. The -14 is not even close.
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BTG1996 said:
I incorrectly assumed the 14 had overtaken the 7 as two-seater of choice.
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At the tent at Oshkosh, the Van's folks said that the RV-10, 12 and 14/14A are the big sellers. So, although more 7s have been completed in the past, the number of 14s sold each year is higher than the number of 7s, at least for the past few years.

I will allow myself one bit of opinion/conjecture: A big part of the reason why Van's has been successful, especially since the RV-10 was introduced, is that the kits are easy to build, more so than the price of the kits. As evidence: the success of the -10/-12/-14 over kits that are more difficult to build but cheaper (and the near-death of RV-3/4 sales, the ones that are least expensive and hardest to build). The number of people who are willing to pay a premium to have a "Lego/Ikea" build experience seems to be higher than the number of people who can only afford a less sophisticated old-school kit.
 
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AeroEngineer said:
The number of people who are willing to pay a premium to have a "Lego/Ikea" build experience
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I find that the premium comment to be true based on the new RV14 and RV10 that rolled into the paint shop at Corona. All are equipped to the max so the builders had no problems with paying for them. I've yet to see a spartan interior on any 10 or 14 in person. Plus I think all of them are QB too.
 
AeroEngineer said:
The number of people who are willing to pay a premium to have a "Lego/Ikea" build experience seems to be higher than the number of people who can only afford a less sophisticated old-school kit.
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I still don't understand this sort of condescension towards builders who didn't mine their own ore and smelt the metal to roll out aluminum sheets themselves, like I'm sure you must have done. Probably felled your own timber when you built your house, too, I imagine.
 
RV7A Flyer said:
I still don't understand this sort of condescension towards builders who didn't mine their own ore and smelt the metal to roll out aluminum sheets themselves, like I'm sure you must have done. Probably felled your own timber when you built your house, too, I imagine.
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I think it is market realities rather than condescension. Todays kits are easier to build and that comes at an up-front cost which builders seem happy to pay.
 
AeroEngineer said:
gmcjetpilot and Snowflake are mistaken. Van's has never discontinued the -3 or the -4. (I vaguely remember Van saying, in an interview or podcast or webinar in the past year or two, that they still sell a handful per year). And although Van's discontinued the -6/6A, this just meant that no one was allowed to start a new -6/6A. If you bought a -6/6A kit in the past, e.g. a tail kit, Van's will still sell you the subsequent kits, even now.

What Van's did do was: In late 2017, they said that RV-3/4/6/6A orders had slowed to a trickle, so they would only make -3/4/6/6A parts about once per year:

https://www.vansaircraft.com/2017/12/notice-to-all-rv-34-and-6-builders/

So, as far as I can tell, no one is orphaned. You can certainly still get parts and customer support for the RV-3 and RV-6, I know this from personal experience.
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FWIW, you included me in your reply. I never said kits were "orphaned". If they were discontinued... they would orphaned.
 
PhatRV said:
..Seems like what ccalrson wants is zero-LCP part even if Vans releases a statement saying the LCP parts do not affect the structural integrity of the airplane…
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Another way of wording this is, seams like ccarlson wants zero cracks in the primary structure.
 
PhatRV said:
Another guy just put his 14 project up for sale since he didn't want to deal with the LCP. Seems like what ccalrson wants is zero-LCP part even if Vans releases a statement saying the LCP parts do not affect the structural integrity of the airplane. Some parts in the airplane has LCP but he shows 0% progress on everything, I mean everything has 0% progress. I remember deburring my empennage the weekend it arrived at my house. Yeah, I really wanted to build. It was like Christmas morning in the middle of September. If you are a builder, you build, you sometime drill out parts you messed up, you redo stuff, sometime you live with the mistakes especially when they aren't critical and build on. Just put up the kit for sale and sleep better at night. But I really think what he wants to get his money back and why he left his kit untouched.
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I want what I paid for, yes, and I want to build. I explained the timeline of factors impacting my build, but the post was removed.
 
BTG1996 said:
On a brighter note, I ordered some parts last night and needed to make a change- I emailed Vans and got a response back this morning that they were able to make the change and would be shipping them soon.

In my experience, the customer service at Vans cannot be understated. Technical support answers the phone and is knowledgeable, parts folks are ready to assist, and equally importantly- most parts are available.

Vans is great and they'll get thru this.
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I find this to be true every time I had to order parts or had technical questions.
 
Jack_G_S said:
Another way of wording this is, seams like ccarlson wants zero cracks in the primary structure.
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This is accurate. To be more precise, I don't want to build with parts that have known cracks (so far, every LCP I have dimpled has cracked). To be even more precise, I really want to build (esp now that winter is imminent!) but cannot do much because 122 "Replacement Recommended" parts stand in the way.

If someone wants to compel adherence to Van's engineering guidance, that's perfectly fine; however, that means following Van's "Replacement Recommended" guidance as well.
 
Quick build entrepreneurs ???

OK, attempted thread shift off LCPs and back to the Vans business.

Pondering how a free market would respond if Vans stopped doing QB kits.
Us old guys remember the Phlogiston spars from years ago.
Buyer ordered the -3 and -4 kit parts, had them shipped to Phlogiston who then treated and assembled the spars. Or the guy in Redding CA (I think) that did tank assemblies.

Wonder if an after market could develop for QB entrepreneurs?
I for one would welcome a QB tank build.
Thou also wonder if it would be too expensive to do business in the US.
I would be a little leery of sending parts out of Country for assembly.

Just more pondering while waiting.
 
ccarlson said:
To be even more precise, I really want to build (esp now that winter is imminent!)
Click to expand...

Here is what I don't get about all the stomach churning.

Let say you have to replace all these LCP parts on your own dime. It may end up costing you $1000. Probably very conservative on my part but it's the quick math I want to convey.

So if you are a fast builder and you can build your 14A in 5 years. It's a big if because you are making 0% progress at the moment.

So the $1000 that you pay now compare to the cost to build the 14A. Assuming the cost to build is $200K. The cost of replacement of your LCP is 0.5% of the total cost of your completed airplane.

If you spread the cost of $1000 extra for 60 months, then it comes out to be $16.7 per month, neglecting the effect of inflation. It costs you more to buy a BigMac / month than the cost that you have to pay to replace your LCP parts. This is also about the cost for 4 Starbuck coffee a month.

If you account for the fuel burn of 12 gal/hour with the big block IO390 engine, it will take about 15 hours for you to spend $1000 of 100LL. This is only 37.5% of the fuel burn that you have to burn during your phase 1 testing.

So the $1000 is a drop in the bucket for the build given what you have to spend in extra if you, if you aren't perfectionist, make mistakes and have to reorder parts that you make mistakes on. I haven't seen a first time builder who build a perfect trim tab the first time around.

I personally spent over $3000 on my canopy booboo. I spend over $2500 to replace the AvMap POS efis on my own dime with the Garmin G5. I paid more money to replace avionics parts out of warranty. The point is you will be spending a lot more money than you think yet people are belling aching about a such small percentage and they made zero progress. Yet they call themselves builder. Sorry but I am not convince

Summary:

$1000 LCP = 4 Starbuck coffee/month = 1 Bigmac/month

This is the scale that people for months are having belly ache on.
 
Last edited:
PhatRV said:
Here is what I don't get about all the stomach churning.

Let say you have to replace all these LCP parts on your own dime. It may end up costing you $1000. Probably very conservative on my part but it's the quick math I want to convey.

So if you are a fast builder and you can build your 14A in 5 years. It's a big if because you are making 0% progress at the moment.

So the $1000 that you pay now compare to the cost to build the 14A. Assuming the cost to build is $200K. The cost of replacement of your LCP is 0.5% of the total cost of your completed airplane.

If you spread the cost of $1000 extra for 60 months, then it comes out to be $16.7 per month, neglecting the effect of inflation. It costs you more to buy a BigMac / month than the cost that you have to pay to replace your LCP parts. This is also about the cost for 4 Starbuck coffee a month.

If you account for the fuel burn of 12 gal/hour with the big block IO390 engine, it will take about 15 hours for you to spend $1000 of 100LL. This is only 37.5% of the fuel burn that you have to burn during your phase 1 testing.

So the $1000 is a drop in the bucket for the build given what you have to spend in extra if you, if you aren't perfectionist, make mistakes and have to reorder parts that you make mistakes on. I haven't seen a first time builder who build a perfect trim tab the first time around.

I personally spent over $3000 on my canopy booboo. I spend over $2500 to replace the AvMap POS efis on my own dime with the Garmin G5. I paid more money to replace avionics parts out of warranty. The point is you will be spending a lot more money than you think yet people are belling aching about a such small percentage and they made zero progress. Yet they call themselves builder. Sorry but I am not convince

Summary:
:eek:
$1000 LCP = 4 Starbuck coffee/month = 1 Bigmac/month

This is the scale that people for months are having belly ache on.
Click to expand...

Where do you live that a bigmac costs $16 ??? :eek:

I'd start by moving even though I don't eat that brand. Come down to Texas where we have Whataburger for half the price of yours and they taste like real meat, not cardboard :D:D:D
 
PhatRV said:
Summary:

$1000 LCP = 4 Starbuck coffee/month = 1 Bigmac/month

This is the scale that people for months are having belly ache on.
Click to expand...

These numbers might be correct for some, but not all. There are some of us who need $6,000 worth of parts to make this right.
 
PhatRV said:
…
This is the scale that people for months are having belly ache on.
Click to expand...

This just shows how blind some people are to the extent of the problem. Many people have completed kit(s) or quick builds in which you may not even know which parts are LC or not. To tear them apart and rebuild them would take 1000’s of hours and most likely weaken the structure. It’s not just a financial issue.
 
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