Van's Air Force
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Backordered parts
- Thread starter TShort
- Start date
This is kind of wild at this point...am I reading things correctly? Some people have received no spars at all, while others have ended up with an extra? And to some degree those people are brokering who's part they think they got and where it should go?
1/21 I was told my items would ship on 1/23. On 2/13 I asked about it got a terse response, that exchange ultimately ended in me being told I would get a tracking number ASAP. Another week has gone by with no further communication.
I'm not mad. I have patience. I have other things to do. All that disclaimer stuff holds true. This is more of a morbid curiosity, like driving past a car accident. Can't help but wonder just how far out of control things really are, and how the heck they got there.
1/21 I was told my items would ship on 1/23. On 2/13 I asked about it got a terse response, that exchange ultimately ended in me being told I would get a tracking number ASAP. Another week has gone by with no further communication.
I'm not mad. I have patience. I have other things to do. All that disclaimer stuff holds true. This is more of a morbid curiosity, like driving past a car accident. Can't help but wonder just how far out of control things really are, and how the heck they got there.
I do not know the cause of their problems. But I wish they would have put a restriction on the number of kits they sold and promised until they could prove to themselves they had their process up to speed.
'
I appreciate folks who have patience. But spending North of $200,000 on a kit promised as the best thing ever, seems to me to require a level of competence in supply chain dynamics. What else don't we know about the airplane? What don't they know...
'
I appreciate folks who have patience. But spending North of $200,000 on a kit promised as the best thing ever, seems to me to require a level of competence in supply chain dynamics. What else don't we know about the airplane? What don't they know...
I finally broke down and sent an unhappy and somewhat terse email to Van's today. Original kit shipped 1/9, with the expectation that the backordered parts would follow at the end of the month. Had trouble getting a response from the list of missing parts. When I inquired about the status of things, someone else sent me a copy of the shipping invoice from my backordered RV-10 seats, which I received almost a year ago. My subsequent phone call and message went unanswered. It took several emails over several weeks to straighten out the list of parts we were still missing. My request for an ETA was replied to days later by yet another individual who said they would let shipping know to work on my parts. Still no follow up a week later. I have no idea if we got dropped, forgotten, lost, or if they are frantically trying to deal with supply issues, but it is clear that customer service needs some management oversight. If nothing other than to put out a real *meaningful* update letting us know the honest truth of things. Because we have paid in full, and I don't have enough parts to even complete one wing, and the strategy thus far looks a lot like pretending we don't exist, or are being bothersome, or shunting us from department to department to avoid accountability.
If management is reading this, you're overdue for a conversation with your customers.
If management is reading this, you're overdue for a conversation with your customers.
"Last seen 3 minutes ago"
I second this! I’ve had an almost identical experience/timeline and feel exactly the same way. I’m not mad, I’m not out of work to do, I have patience, I knew what I was getting into, etc.
BUT, a little communication would go a LONG way. I think this is going to be a great project and a great airplane. I want to be a Vans super-fan and shout it from the mountain tops (or the moderate equivalent of YouTube), however, that will be difficult if the entire process feels this way. Just a straightforward answer of exactly when my missing parts will ship and when the right wing spar is anticipated is all I’d really need to feel a lot better about it all.
Maybe this is -15 unique but my recent -10 wing was almost flawless. Original ship date of 2/6, actual 2/18. I have given up on emails, 2 week response for a one word reply is useless. However, I have called in a few times and made sure it was during actual hours with typically a short hold time. Whomever answers Has always been pleasant and informative on whatever my issue was. Once had to follow up, and received that first thing the following morning.
I’m sure this doesnt help anyone’s case, just offering a data point that the experience isn’t across the board.
I’m sure this doesnt help anyone’s case, just offering a data point that the experience isn’t across the board.
N10KE
Well Known Member
It's not across the board, but the issues are occurring and affected builder's complaints are still valid. Being told by others "you are beta testers and you should expect these issues with a new design" isn't helpful. Van's needs to hear this and implement the long promised solutions. Stuff happens with most companies and how they deal with it is just as important (and maybe more so) than when things go right.
Did you get any notification they were shipping? I emailed Monday for an update but have not heard back.
I did not get any notification, other than an email from UPS that a package was inbound.
Now that I have had a chance to go through things, I'm only more confused. I got my ribs, so that's good. There were also 2 or 3 other items I had as backordered that showed up.
The majority of the hardware I was sent is items that were not listed as BO or discrepancies. Just more of things that I think I already had (like 4 more rivets that I already had ~92 of), or items that are not even on the packing list. I feel like I got someone else's shipment or just some random parts.
I know that there are a number of parts listed on the latest packing list (which has been posted along with the other KAIs) that were not on my original packing list (circa December 31st).
There are some new parts, some parts that have been deleted, and some updated quantities for things like bolts and rivets.
I have been iterating with K2 on a sales order that incorporates backordered, missing and new parts. It has a lot of parts I didn’t know about until looking at the new packing list
There are some new parts, some parts that have been deleted, and some updated quantities for things like bolts and rivets.
I have been iterating with K2 on a sales order that incorporates backordered, missing and new parts. It has a lot of parts I didn’t know about until looking at the new packing list
I gave the new packing list a glance, and it really only brings more questions. At least for some of the rivets it looks like they got away from the unit count to the weighted quantity, which presumably would allow for some spares and is a great idea. This led me to look at one of the rivets where I got 3 instead of the 4 called out, the NAS1091AD3-3.5. The new packing list shows a quantity of 0, indicating they would not be included. The KAI sec 25 page 6, has not been updated to show a different rivet.
I don't understand what the expectation is for builders and the new packing list. These do seem like the kind of things that fall in the excusable 'new kit' bucket, so I'll just keep building and deal with any missing items as they come along. At least, that's what I'll do when I get some of the backordered stuff that has me held up. This shipment appears to mainly be my missing ribs, plus some of the make-up items on the updated inventory list as opposed to the original backordered items. It would have been great to get flap tracks and mixer bearings.
Yeah, I considered that. I would think that if the quantity is that low and they can't afford to supply a few 1/10,000s worth of rivets it would be more logical to keep that part on a unit count, which they still do on others. It's a work in progress, fair enough.
FWIW, if it helps anybody with their inventory, these are the parts on the latest packing list that were NOT on my original Dec31 packing list:
MS21005-L3 10-32 Rt angle PNUT 2
W-15050-001 SHIM 0.16 Stiffner 8
W-15051-001 SHIM 0.20 Stiffner 8
T-00007D Fuel cap, Metal 2
AN426AD4-3 Countersunk Rivet 0.01
MS24694-S69 100 Deg Flt Head Screw 2
ANR470AD3-3.5 universal head rivets 0.01
AN929-4D Cap, flared fitting 1
AN929-6D Cap, flared fitting 1
EA HOSE H177X3 3" Long Hose 1
FUEL Air Tank Valve Brass Air Tank Valve 1
HW-00015 DynaFlow #4 SS Hose Clamp 0.2 2
There are numerous other parts that were on the original list but have updated quantities on the new list
These are parts that were on my original packing list but are not on the new one:
MS21042-08
NAS1149FN832P
ANS509-8R7
BUSH AL.197X.313X.438
MS21055-L08
MS24694-S71
AN470AD4-3
lE F-385C (there are two lE F-385B on the new list)
YMMV (a lot)
Between missing, damaged, backordered, new parts, and parts with updated quantities, my current sales order is 67 items long
I am thinking that for an early adopter of a new kit of this complexity, this is not really unexpected. Again, YMMV
MS21005-L3 10-32 Rt angle PNUT 2
W-15050-001 SHIM 0.16 Stiffner 8
W-15051-001 SHIM 0.20 Stiffner 8
T-00007D Fuel cap, Metal 2
AN426AD4-3 Countersunk Rivet 0.01
MS24694-S69 100 Deg Flt Head Screw 2
ANR470AD3-3.5 universal head rivets 0.01
AN929-4D Cap, flared fitting 1
AN929-6D Cap, flared fitting 1
EA HOSE H177X3 3" Long Hose 1
FUEL Air Tank Valve Brass Air Tank Valve 1
HW-00015 DynaFlow #4 SS Hose Clamp 0.2 2
| AN3-12A Bolt 4 |
There are numerous other parts that were on the original list but have updated quantities on the new list
These are parts that were on my original packing list but are not on the new one:
MS21042-08
NAS1149FN832P
ANS509-8R7
BUSH AL.197X.313X.438
MS21055-L08
MS24694-S71
AN470AD4-3
lE F-385C (there are two lE F-385B on the new list)
Between missing, damaged, backordered, new parts, and parts with updated quantities, my current sales order is 67 items long
I am thinking that for an early adopter of a new kit of this complexity, this is not really unexpected. Again, YMMV
It's a good effort and thanks for sharing, but I think it will be of limited value to others. The original packing lists were apparently inconsistent. By example, mine had the fuel caps and they were included.
Generally agree, this part is fine. A little more communication would help. They seemed to by on that path with the updates and notices in late January and early February. Sending parts unannounced that were not on the packing list would be something to avoid.
I received some of my back ordered parts recently, literally on the day that I had run out of useful things to do on the project. Thus, I've been moving ahead again over this last week. For me, it proceeded like this:
1/30 I received a BO notification. As there were several discrepancies with my list of missing items, K2 and I exchanged several emails over the next week.
2/6 We agreed on a finalized list of missing items.
2/18 I received a Bill of Lading from ABF and a separate note from VA that a shipment was on its way.
2/23 An 85# crate arrived with back-ordered parts including missing flap skins, but still missing the right front main spar assembly, key brackets, and some other key parts.
2/26 A small package arrived in my mailbox with no previous notification. It had two missing brackets, some rivets, and a couple other small things. The brackets are beautiful! But, the other key brackets are still missing. I received no notice that this shipment was coming but there was an inventory list in the box.
I've since finished both flaps and ready to move onto the ailerons to see how far I can go with them.
1/30 I received a BO notification. As there were several discrepancies with my list of missing items, K2 and I exchanged several emails over the next week.
2/6 We agreed on a finalized list of missing items.
2/18 I received a Bill of Lading from ABF and a separate note from VA that a shipment was on its way.
2/23 An 85# crate arrived with back-ordered parts including missing flap skins, but still missing the right front main spar assembly, key brackets, and some other key parts.
2/26 A small package arrived in my mailbox with no previous notification. It had two missing brackets, some rivets, and a couple other small things. The brackets are beautiful! But, the other key brackets are still missing. I received no notice that this shipment was coming but there was an inventory list in the box.
I've since finished both flaps and ready to move onto the ailerons to see how far I can go with them.
Got it from SkyGeek, although you can save a lot on shipping if you are able to source locally.
No
Aside from those weights, as of yesterday all I am missing is some 470AD4-3.5 rivets, the tubing reducers, wing tips and landing light lenses. I got a box yesterday with the rest of my omitted and backordered parts.
At least the weights can be installed after the ailerons are done and should not impede progress...
Pure speculations....they may be waiting to determine the exact weight/length of the counterbalance weights until the final configuration of the plane flies to determine what works best? I'm not holding my breathe to receive them any time soon but they will be easy to add in later.
Not a single item received here. Timeline like Louise’s only nothing has shown up. I have an order number and an invoice but no shipment. When I inquire they say they are working on backorder shipments.…have to assume my order is lost but can’t get anyone to actually check on it. They just say they are working on it….losing my patience
From Parts at Vans a few minutes ago:
“Joe,
I sent a message to the shipping team to ship what is available. The team is pretty caught up so I do not see that they will delay in shipping you what is available.”
So, the good news for all of you is they are caught up and hopefully orders start going out faster. The bad news for me seems to be they are caught and my order from 45 days ago hasn’t shipped and no one can tell me when it will….
“Joe,
I sent a message to the shipping team to ship what is available. The team is pretty caught up so I do not see that they will delay in shipping you what is available.”
So, the good news for all of you is they are caught up and hopefully orders start going out faster. The bad news for me seems to be they are caught and my order from 45 days ago hasn’t shipped and no one can tell me when it will….
Can't wait to hear what shows up. It would be great if they are caught up and also have important parts to send. Not so great if they are caught up because there is no inventory to ship. Good luck!
I'll probably check in with them in a few more days. At the end of this week it will be a month since I was told something similar. That seems like a fair enough timeline to check in.
There needs to be a facepalm emoji for this. Vans admitted they need to communicate better, then follow up with... no communication. I have been begging for an update for over a month. Today USPS notified me I have a box on the way from Aurora. What's in it? Is it the stuff I actually need? Who knows. It's been a week and a half since I was told they'd tell shipping to get on it and that's the last I heard.I just got another mystery box. This one had 2 bags with smaller rivets, and a fuel sender. I already have both fuel senders.
Anyone wanna trade an F-385B for some flap tracks?
I can guess the one thing that ISN'T in it is a right main spar, and while they refuted the rumor of where they're being built, the silence is deafening on WHEN they'll be delivered.
Just a data point. I got my wing kit 2 weeks ago. Neither left nor right main spar, and not a single LP4-3 rivet. And of course, the full list of back ordered items like everybody else. I can only pull off so much blue plastic and prep parts before sitting around with nothing to do.
Parts team has been good about emails, so no communication problems here. But I am told that back ordered items are shipping on March 30. Ugh.
Reading Louise’s update in Avbrief, I had to smile when she said Vans pushed back at her claim that she is a beta builder. Anybody who has done the fuel sender arm bends according to the plans already knows that we are beta builders. Vans is not even close on those bend measurements. Luckily I like building and tinkering, so it’s not a significant emotional event for me. But still. The KAI needs a hard look and some updates here and there.
Parts team has been good about emails, so no communication problems here. But I am told that back ordered items are shipping on March 30. Ugh.
Reading Louise’s update in Avbrief, I had to smile when she said Vans pushed back at her claim that she is a beta builder. Anybody who has done the fuel sender arm bends according to the plans already knows that we are beta builders. Vans is not even close on those bend measurements. Luckily I like building and tinkering, so it’s not a significant emotional event for me. But still. The KAI needs a hard look and some updates here and there.
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My kit was delivered on Feb 13. The day it shipped I got an email with the list of backordered parts. 14 parts numbers in total. Vans did a great job actually packing and shipping what was on the packing sheets. I only had one item that listed as shipped that I didn't get. A quick email and they said it would be shipped ASAP. I also was given a March 30 date for shipping all the backorderrd parts. It's going to be a busy shipping day at Vans on 3/30
Maybe I'm just lucky but up till this point every email (4 to date) to the kits support address has been answered within 48 hours.
BTW... As my wife and I were doing the inventory I was somewhat surprised that many parts have the same number just a different prefix.
I was one of the early kits and was told backorders would ship on 1/23. They still haven't, and my last attempt to get an update was just ASAP.
Hopefully the 30th is a conservative estimate on parts supply. If there isn't at least some explanation of things, I'm get to take a lot of heat this month when I'm sending off $9k more for a tail kit.
Hopefully the 30th is a conservative estimate on parts supply. If there isn't at least some explanation of things, I'm get to take a lot of heat this month when I'm sending off $9k more for a tail kit.
Pay extremely close attention to ALL of those numbers and letters on the part numbers. They mean something specific.My kit was delivered on Feb 13. The day it shipped I got an email with the list of backordered parts. 14 parts numbers in total. Vans did a great job actually packing and shipping what was on the packing sheets. I only had one item that listed as shipped that I didn't get. A quick email and they said it would be shipped ASAP. I also was given a March 30 date for shipping all the backorderrd parts. It's going to be a busy shipping day at Vans on 3/30
Maybe I'm just lucky but up till this point every email (4 to date) to the kits support address has been answered within 48 hours.
BTW... As my wife and I were doing the inventory I was somewhat surprised that many parts have the same number just a different prefix.
W - Wing
A - Aileron
F - flaps
XXX-001 - Left facing flange
XXX-002 - Right facing flange
Pay close attention to the drawing depiction and what is required for the RIGHT wing part number that will be different in that position and will be a mirror image of the LEFT wing part number.
I think that their numbering convention has confused a lot of people, including some at the factory. Some of the parts my kit was missing can be traced to the extra parts I was sent. They missed the prefix and I ended up missing 5 wing ribs and receiving 5 extra flap ribs…the good news is they fixed the issue right away and sent me the wing ribs.
Yes...
The part I was missing was W-15009-002. The response to my initial email letting them know I was missing it but received two W-15009-001 was, it on your backorder parts list and would ship the end of March. I sent a copy of my back order parts list and explained the back order list included FL-15009-002 not W-15009-002. I recevied a promp email back letting me know I was correct and they would send the missing part ASAP. I had been following some of the earlier builders comments on the part numbers. I guess it makes sense once you get into the groove.
The other thing I noticed was the back order list only inclused the part numbers, not the quantity of each part I'm missing. The aileron counterweights are a good example.
My -10 Wing kit just arrived with -14 tank skins... (T-00001 shipped instead of T-1001).. So even the old numbering system seams to create confusion. Was planning on starting with the tanks while my proseal was fresh.
N10KE
Well Known Member
Did the Gesipa factory burn down too?
Beats me. I thought it was odd that Vans didn't even give me a small handful of LP4-3 pull rivets just to get me started. I'm curious to know if any kits delivered after mine got their rivets?
I can't answer that because I had an early kit and got the big box with 7,000 of them. Oddly enough, last week's mystery box included a small bag with at least a few dozen more.
My -10 just arrived with 100.
Mine was delivered 2/13. 7,304 LP4-3 rivets. 7000 in boxes and a bag of 304.
I got another mystery box today. Not much in this week's round, but they are parts that make sense and includes some that allow me to make progress on the main wing structure. This one was the lead counterweights for the ailerons, and the bearings for the outboard bell cranks. I'm excited to get the bearings because now I can that wing all the way up being ready to skin. This is a huge benefit for my workflow, because I was about to spend this evening building a rack for the un-skinned structure so I could clear space to build the flaps. Now I can skip that whole step and get this wing mostly completed.
I also got an email response to expect flap tracks some time in late March or early April. It helps to know when things are at least a few weeks (or more) out as I plan how to organize for working on different parts.
I also got an email response to expect flap tracks some time in late March or early April. It helps to know when things are at least a few weeks (or more) out as I plan how to organize for working on different parts.
johnvanbladeren
Member
Kit #55 is about to finish the left wing. All structures have been completed. We are only missing the mid flap track. For the cherry max rivets at the inner mixing box, we used the Milwaukee 12 V puller with the 6 inch extension. We will be priming the skins this week and start the skin install. Our ribs and all small pieces were alodined (type 1) for both wings for $1000. We anodized the extensions for the main spar which we received bare from Vans. The rear and aileron and flap spars were sprayed with an epoxy primer. It has been a good experience.
John van Bladeren
N612VB
Comanche pilot for 51 years.
John van Bladeren
N612VB
Comanche pilot for 51 years.
I received kit #66 on January 21. I completed and submitted my packing list discrepancy list via email January 27. I followed up re the Cherry Max rivet issue (I had the incorrect rivets). I've always received acknowledgement of my emails from Van's. Since then I've received 2 packages from Van's, one invoiced February 25 and another Mar 3. In each case I received a notice from the shipper (one UPS, one USPS) that I had a package coming, but no other heads-up from Van's. The packages contained various back ordered parts (rivets, aileron tracks, fuel drains, etc.) as well as 5 missing right wing ribs. Today I received an email from ABF that they had a pick up order for a 91 pound 147" long crate, so I presume my right wing spar, and hopefully some more of the backordered parts are on their way.
I'm REALLY happy that parts are making their way here. I've been busy taking the wings as far as I could awaiting the Cherry Max rivets, and was just able to complete the flaps. I think I'll move on to the ailerons as the last shipment seems to have provided the few missing aileron parts. I'm in no great rush, and appreciate the work from Van's in getting backordered parts out in a reasonable time frame. I do wish they would post the invoices under the order tab for the store or in the kit field of the RV-15 under my account number as orders ship. However, as long as the parts keep coming, I'll defer paperwork any day.
Addendum: Just moments after posting above, I did receive an email notification from Van’s including a PDF invoice. The shipment is the spar only, but the notification from Van’s is very appreciated. I should also mention I called the Van’s store line about a week ago regarding a damaged wing bracket (my bad - smashed a driven rivet and ruined the part trying to drill it out). I spoke with an extremely helpful lady who spent a lot of time with me finding the as yet unlisted (in store) part and arranging the order. Wish i had gotten her name. She was great!
I'm REALLY happy that parts are making their way here. I've been busy taking the wings as far as I could awaiting the Cherry Max rivets, and was just able to complete the flaps. I think I'll move on to the ailerons as the last shipment seems to have provided the few missing aileron parts. I'm in no great rush, and appreciate the work from Van's in getting backordered parts out in a reasonable time frame. I do wish they would post the invoices under the order tab for the store or in the kit field of the RV-15 under my account number as orders ship. However, as long as the parts keep coming, I'll defer paperwork any day.
Addendum: Just moments after posting above, I did receive an email notification from Van’s including a PDF invoice. The shipment is the spar only, but the notification from Van’s is very appreciated. I should also mention I called the Van’s store line about a week ago regarding a damaged wing bracket (my bad - smashed a driven rivet and ruined the part trying to drill it out). I spoke with an extremely helpful lady who spent a lot of time with me finding the as yet unlisted (in store) part and arranging the order. Wish i had gotten her name. She was great!
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We also received a notice from ABF, and did get a notice from Van's. It is just the right spar, and the rest of the backordered parts are still backordered. So there's some progress.
Well, on a positive note: eleven days after I emailed a list of items noted as shipped with my wing kit but actually missing, I received a crate with all those items, plus a couple of backordered items. I still can't complete ailerons, flaps, or wings, but I have plenty of parts to keep me busy for now.
And sometimes they are not so picky on rivet counts: I said three were missing so they sent me 0.010 lb of them, now I have about 20 extra to drill out and replace.
And sometimes they are not so picky on rivet counts: I said three were missing so they sent me 0.010 lb of them, now I have about 20 extra to drill out and replace.
