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Any risk carrying Lithium ion batteries in aircraft
- Thread starter CJT
- Start date
An ammo can isn’t going to contain a lithium fire for long.
You would be better off with a lipo sack similar to what the rc guys use.
Also, it’s likely that the e-bikes are using LiFeO4 chemistry which greatly reduces the risk of fire.
PilotjohnS
Well Known Member
I was a li battery expert in my past life. I would not carry a Li battery in the passenger compartment of an RV. Remember the story of the first 787 Li battery: it burnt down the test lab in Texas. ( cell phone batteries are exempt from this rule. )
However, I have not been keeping with the latest Li battery technology and the newer chemistries may be safer than the older generation of Li batteries. YMMV
However, I have not been keeping with the latest Li battery technology and the newer chemistries may be safer than the older generation of Li batteries. YMMV
If you are familiar with the 787 issue, you would know that your statement is a bit misleading.
Properly cared for with newer chemistries, lithium batteries are quite safe…not risk free but then nothing is. Ever seen a lead acid battery explode?
I have.
Not knowing what a "lipo sack" was, I did a bit of searching. Hmmm. Didn't seem to "contain" in the YouTube video I looked at.
Time for DanH to try lighting off some Lithium batteries!
Important question though for CJT - are yours Lithium Ion, or Lithium Iron (aka LiFePO4)?
A significant safety difference between them.
Time for DanH to try lighting off some Lithium batteries!
Important question though for CJT - are yours Lithium Ion, or Lithium Iron (aka LiFePO4)?
A significant safety difference between them.
From the small amount of research I've done on this topic, there are two frequent contributing factors in these battery fires - 1) physical damage to the battery, for example when moving your seat in business or first class and crushing your iphone or ipad; 2) charging.
If you don't charge the battery when flying, or physically damage it, you have greatly reduced the risk of an in-flight fire.
I'm making the assumption that you are not using "dumpster diving" batteries that were discarded due to QC issues.
If you don't charge the battery when flying, or physically damage it, you have greatly reduced the risk of an in-flight fire.
I'm making the assumption that you are not using "dumpster diving" batteries that were discarded due to QC issues.
The main risks associated with lithium ion batteries are fire and fumes.
Someone said above you shouldn't put them in the passenger compartment of an RV. But you most certainly should not put them in the baggage compartment. Because "if" (thats a big if, they are quite safe) one was to start burning in the baggage compartment there would be absolutely nothing you could do about it, and you may not even notice until it was far too late.
If I were to carry high power batteries in an RV I would keep them in the passenger compartment, where I could see them, in a fire proof bag, and have a plan about what I would do if one were to go up. That may involve landing, or throwing it out of the aircraft.
If one were to start burning, there is no way to put it out in an RV. The only thing you can do is buy yourself time. In the airlines we are trained to put the burning battery in a metal container and fill it with water. Even then the battery will continue to pop and fizz until the chemical reaction is over.
Someone said above you shouldn't put them in the passenger compartment of an RV. But you most certainly should not put them in the baggage compartment. Because "if" (thats a big if, they are quite safe) one was to start burning in the baggage compartment there would be absolutely nothing you could do about it, and you may not even notice until it was far too late.
If I were to carry high power batteries in an RV I would keep them in the passenger compartment, where I could see them, in a fire proof bag, and have a plan about what I would do if one were to go up. That may involve landing, or throwing it out of the aircraft.
If one were to start burning, there is no way to put it out in an RV. The only thing you can do is buy yourself time. In the airlines we are trained to put the burning battery in a metal container and fill it with water. Even then the battery will continue to pop and fizz until the chemical reaction is over.
I recently saw a video where a gentleman got in an elevator with a bicycle battery and as soon as the doors closed, the battery ignited. Poor fellow couldn’t get away from the flame. RIP. Fire hazards in the confined space of an airplane is scary. Hard to put space between you and that hot flame. If you could toss it overboard that would be one way to mitigate the risk. Another way is put it on the bomb bay so you can drop if it becomes problematic. Finally you could jump.
If none of these risk mitigation options are pleasing, then maybe you should avoid the risk all together. Fire sucks.
And yet many are changing to a Li EarthX battery to power the aircraft, and we all have multiple phones, gps, etc powered by Li. Why is the balance of risk considered different of an e-bike? Is there evidence for the different chemistries being safer? being trapped in an aircraft with a Li fire is about as bad as it gets, curious what the actual risk is and if there have been any incidents.
"Lithium" is over subscribed.
To wit, we aren't at risk from folks with Bipolar disorders who are on their medication experiencing an uncontained exothermic event.
Here's a link that better describes the various types & chemistries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery
net-net:
Early Dreamliner episode, Dell Laptops, cell phones -- battery chemistry was LiCo, aka Lithium ION.
EarthX => LiFePo+ aka Lithium IRON, Lithium Iron Phosphate.
...and, Pro-tip, don't design a battery system with a bunch of 18650's in a Magnesium-alloy case and charge them *without* a BMS/uController/MOSFFET on each cell...
Not all lithium-based batteries are created equal. Differences in chemistry as well as engineering and quality control are going to mitigate or amplify the risk of fire. Many of the e-bike and other device fires that we have been reading about for these many years have come from ”offshore” imported devices where price point is the main concern and safety/quality takes a distant back seat. The consumer explosion of these imported scooters and e-bikes make them a ripe target for manufacturing corner-cutting. I have no concern about carrying my iPhone or iPad in my airplane, but taking along an e-bike is a completely different level of risk IMHO.
Yes. A quick internet search will return days worth of reading.
Here are a couple charts comparing the chemistries. EarthX uses LiFePO4 cells (Lithium Iron Phosphate).
I.am.Human.Factors
Member
To the OP’s question - I personally would not be comfortable with a battery at that Wh carried onboard, and have left similar behind at my day job where HAZMAT limits have applied.
For anyone curious, the link below was the best solution I could find up to the usual 100Wh battery limit. It’s an all encompassing solution including the smoke and fumes which is usually not contained by most containment bags. I carry these onboard at work and hope to never use them. Problem for RVs is they’re expensive and aren’t the lightest for their size…
Link: Fire Containment Bag
For anyone curious, the link below was the best solution I could find up to the usual 100Wh battery limit. It’s an all encompassing solution including the smoke and fumes which is usually not contained by most containment bags. I carry these onboard at work and hope to never use them. Problem for RVs is they’re expensive and aren’t the lightest for their size…
Link: Fire Containment Bag
PilotjohnS
Well Known Member
As hinted at in another post, the e bike batteries, and the ones for those hoverboards, seem to be the lowest quality. They are also of reasonably large size. So low quality batteries, of large size, in a passenger compartment makes for too much risk for me. There are many stories of these types of batteries spontaneously combusting. YMMV
Besides battery type (Lithium Ion vs Lithium Iron Phosphate), Country of origin of the battery is my primary concern for carrying a lithium battery on board my RV. This is especially important, as PilotjohnS states, in mass produced/marketed consumer products. Buyer and flyer beware
walkman
Well Known Member
I have 600 Ahr of LiFePO4 aboard my yacht in the house alone, plus a few other small ones.
The risk aboard my boat, offshore, is not much less than that of being airborne.
I'm perfectly happy with LiFePO4
I would not carry other lithium technologies, at least without fire bags for them.
There is a case of two gents in a Beneteau who had to abandon ship halfway across the gulf due to lithium battery fire from a small power tool batter that got damaged in rough seas.
It was not LiFePO4.
The risk aboard my boat, offshore, is not much less than that of being airborne.
I'm perfectly happy with LiFePO4
I would not carry other lithium technologies, at least without fire bags for them.
There is a case of two gents in a Beneteau who had to abandon ship halfway across the gulf due to lithium battery fire from a small power tool batter that got damaged in rough seas.
It was not LiFePO4.
I agree that all batteries aren't created equal. The knee jerk reaction that all lithium batteries are just waiting for the first good opportunity to kill you is an over reaction.
Here I sit, looking at a plastic cartridge pack thats says "rechargeable Li-ion Battery " Garmin says it's likely shorted internally. Where was it? plugged into the back of my G5.
Here I sit, looking at a plastic cartridge pack thats says "rechargeable Li-ion Battery " Garmin says it's likely shorted internally. Where was it? plugged into the back of my G5.
Physical damage to the battery is key. Heres a report on a Mooney that burnt (my earlier post has been heavily edited for facts): https://data.ntsb.gov/.../GenerateNewestReport/194155/pdf
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Southern Pete
Well Known Member
It would be (very?) unusual for a lithium battery, what every the chemistry, to burst into flames sitting on a shelf. But strap that battery to a bicycle and but that bike into an airplane in a not completely constrained manner and you have more of a risk. If you know the history of the battery, that it has never sustained any form of charging or physical abuse, and that it won't get thrown around in your airplane then the risk of a fire may be tolerable for you, but likely difficult to quantify.
CJT
Well Known Member
From what I understand
information about batteries catching fire are spread across many battery types
No one in authority can answer on case to case basis due to issues of liability
Batteries are not like pack of chips that they explode due to decreased atmospheric pressure
The chemical reactions probably do not start de novo
So here is my plan, at my own risk
Take the battery, pad it for good cushioning, keep it within reach, hold it securely and pray
information about batteries catching fire are spread across many battery types
No one in authority can answer on case to case basis due to issues of liability
Batteries are not like pack of chips that they explode due to decreased atmospheric pressure
The chemical reactions probably do not start de novo
So here is my plan, at my own risk
Take the battery, pad it for good cushioning, keep it within reach, hold it securely and pray
I guess if you can find out how many of those Brompton batteries have caught fire vs how many exist, you'd have your answer?
