Push to Start or Key

[BGordon]

Good morning everyone,
I am putting ideas for my panel together and was looking for opinions or experience with starting options. I would like to install a Push to Start like my car has, but I am wondering how to secure the engine when I don't want it running. My thoughts are a hidden kill switch, a key FOB (like the one that goes with my car, and my preferred method), or a key. If I use a key, wouldn't it be easier to just use a "standard" ignition with the mags, start, and run built into it?

Thank you for your thoughts,
Brandon

 

[rsultzbach]

Mike Busch wrote a good article on the classic key operated switch most of our light planes have.

 

[Freemasm]

Good morning everyone,
I am putting ideas for my panel together and was looking for opinions or experience with starting options. I would like to install a Push to Start like my car has, but I am wondering how to secure the engine when I don't want it running. My thoughts are a hidden kill switch, a key FOB (like the one that goes with my car, and my preferred method), or a key. If I use a key, wouldn't it be easier to just use a "standard" ignition with the mags, start, and run built into it?

Thank you for your thoughts,
Brandon

(at least) Two discrete operations to engage a starter. Enable switch + start switch. Enable + key, key switch that incorporates a spring detent or push to start, etc.

No single action should move a propeller.

 

[gasman]

Mike Busch wrote a good article on the classic key operated switch most of our light planes have.

EAA Webinar... Deadly Switches... Dec. 8 2023.

 

[skelrad]

I think there are a number of threads on this somewhere if you dig around a bit. I went through the same back and forth. There's no single "right" answer, but agree that there should at least be a second action required in the starting sequence somewhere vs a single button push. I decided to use the 3 position toggle switch with my PMags, so didn't need the traditional key setup for mag testing. I went with a push button for the starter, but did add in a simple on/off key into the circuit, so the button won't work without the key.

 

[Hangar 1271]

I have a button and a hidden kill switch for the starter. My ignition and mag switches are located on a different panel. If I had it to do over, I'd have gone with something like this this: I like the key fob idea though. Are there third party proximity fobs to interrupt the starter switch?

 

[JeffPeters]

On a cobra project I built I used one of the cheap Amazon systems that comes with a passive fob you have to have on you to unlock the starter. You also have to have your foot on the break by way of a safety switch. Seems you could easily incorporate that into your build, tie the safety switch to some hidden switch or mixture or something.. but on my -10 I’m planning on going with a key.

 

[Toobuilder]

I have a toggle switch that turns my engine bus on and off and arms the starter (OFF/RUN/ARM). Starter will NOT activate unless the ship master is on AND the engine condition switch is moved from OFF to ARM. Could do exactly the same with a magneto switch (OFF/RUN/ARM).

 

[Dugaru]

No single action should move a propeller.

Wise words. I almost got brained due to a starter button being installed in the infinity grip on a stick, with no other kill switch. Felt the breeze from the prop blade on my eyeball.

 

[bjdecker]

The keyswitch (A-510-2) seems to have gotten a bad rep, but I've used it with great success over the past 30+ years of building/flying.

It can fail for a variety of reasons; like the 30 million or so GM switches, the keyway - engagement pins can wear out if you have a bunch of crap (yes, crap) hanging from the key.

 

[scrollF4]

I think there are a number of threads on this somewhere if you dig around a bit. I went through the same back and forth. There's no single "right" answer, but agree that there should at least be a second action required in the starting sequence somewhere vs a single button push. I decided to use the 3 position toggle switch with my PMags, so didn't need the traditional key setup for mag testing. I went with a push button for the starter, but did add in a simple on/off key into the circuit, so the button won't work without the key.

View attachment 110778

Skel,
What keyed switch did you buy (can I find it on the 'Zon)?

 

[Dad's RV-10]

I recently eliminated the ACS switch and replaced it with a push-to-start and two 3-position toggles for the P-Mags.

The P-Mags already had two momentary switches for the internal power test, so it was simply a matter of replacing those two momentary switches with the two 3-position toggles and rewiring as necessary.

Good riddance to the ACS switch.

 

[Mike S]

I went with a push button for the starter, but did add in a simple on/off key into the circuit, so the button won't work without the key.

View attachment 110778

Very similar to what I have, key switch provides power to start button only.

 

[RV7A Flyer]

I think there are a number of threads on this somewhere if you dig around a bit. I went through the same back and forth. There's no single "right" answer, but agree that there should at least be a second action required in the starting sequence somewhere vs a single button push. I decided to use the 3 position toggle switch with my PMags, so didn't need the traditional key setup for mag testing. I went with a push button for the starter, but did add in a simple on/off key into the circuit, so the button won't work without the key.

View attachment 110778

I did something similar, but since I have two Slick mags, I also use the keyswitch to ensure the left mag (with the impulse coupling) can't be turned on unless the keyswitch is also on (so some dumb kid at some random fly-in can't go flipping switches and make the prop "hot"). Schematic attached.

 

[skelrad]

Skel,
What keyed switch did you buy (can I find it on the 'Zon)?

There are very similar ones on Amazon I'm sure, but I got mine off of McMaster: https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/132/1111/7188K32

 

[rockyfatcat]

I had some similar thoughts when discussing my new panel with my avionics guy.

I thought about the fob and how much fun that’d be if either the fob battery died or the associated electronics went bad.

I have 2 standard magnetos and opted for a key switch and a hidden switch to kill the mags

 

[sansoneservices]

OMG .. hopefully you don't mean what I think you mean

 

[Taltruda]

When using the 3-position switch on P-mags alone, how do you enter the setup mode where the P-leads need to stay grounded, yet power applied to the ignitions? I’ve got mine wired with the three position switches, but my p leads still get grounded though the key switch..

 

[Triumph1974]

I did the AreoElectric Manual spring loaded mag toggle switch set up. Works great, built in safety as it requires 3 switches to be in a specific configuration for the starter to engage, and low cost. Would do it again....

 

[Mike S]

Skel,
What keyed switch did you buy (can I find it on the 'Zon)?

Stein has the switches.

 

[Xkuzme1]

I put my push button starter on my stick grip. I can start the plane and hold my tail down at the same time. The VPX has a rpm cutoff so that the starter cannot be operated once it's running. If you don't have a VPX, there is also a a smart switch that can cutoff the starter as well.

I highly recommend the starter on a stick grip for rockets... especially the HRIIs. They like to turtle. Having the ability to have a hand on the stick, starter, and throttle all at once is gold.

 

[blaplante]

Just a passing comment... I see plenty of RVs with no key whatsoever. I guess theft isn't an issue.
Before you say 'how would anyone resell a stolen RV'... nah, they would strip the avionics.

 

[Notso]

Good morning everyone,
I am putting ideas for my panel together and was looking for opinions or experience with starting options. I would like to install a Push to Start like my car has, but I am wondering how to secure the engine when I don't want it running. My thoughts are a hidden kill switch, a key FOB (like the one that goes with my car, and my preferred method), or a key. If I use a key, wouldn't it be easier to just use a "standard" ignition with the mags, start, and run built into it?

Thank you for your thoughts,
Brandon

I have a Push to start button and a hidden kill switch under the dash that disables the ignition. I like it soooo much better than a keyed start.

 

[wirejock]

Start button has a hinged spring loaded cover. Master has to be on to power the start circuit. I do like the idea of a hidden switch to isolate the starter circuit but it seems like it should be a momentary. I would forget and leave it engaged. Just sayin'

 

[-135Driver]

I installed the IntelliKey NG-R from Midwest Panel Builders. Also added their start push button that provides an LED ring letting you know if the start circuit is active or not. It recognizes the key fob. If you forget the key fob, you can login with your phone and use a PIN code. It has some other features as well.

 

[David Z]

For those with starter push-buttons on the stick. What grip are you using? I'm seeing lots of grips limited to fewer amps than the starter solenoid requires.

 

[Richard Connell]

I installed the IntelliKey NG-R from Midwest Panel Builders. Also added their start push button that provides an LED ring letting you know if the start circuit is active or not. It recognizes the key fob. If you forget the key fob, you can login with your phone and use a PIN code. It has some other features as well.

I have one too. Happy with it. Instead of the illuminated push button though I just have my Z-14 X-feed/start toggle setup. The intellikey enables it.
My EFIS takes the enable/disable from the box and displays status as a CAS.
All works as advertised. I carry the backup dongle in my toolbag just in case but have never had to use it. The fob battery has gone flat once in 4y which necessitated the phone to enable.
I also have the courtesy light functionality wired into my cabin interior lights which has been surprisingly useful at night too.

 

[Notso]

Start button has a hinged spring loaded cover. Master has to be on to power the start circuit. I do like the idea of a hidden switch to isolate the starter circuit but it seems like it should be a momentary. I would forget and leave it engaged. Just sayin'

Mine is hidden up under the dash and its a toggle switch. Since my plane is hangared and locked up - The only time I ever toggle it to disconnect is like when I'm leaving the plane outside over night on a XC or sometimes if I remember when parking somewhere on a Saturday Breakfast run.

 

[RWoodard]

I had a push button start switch on my Midget Mustang’s Infinity stick grip. I used the green momentary contact button… green for go… Since the plane was pretty simple, I just used double pole switches for the Slick mags. One side of each of the switches ran the ground/ungrounded circuit for mags on/off and one pole of the left switch toggled the tach pickup from left to right mag for mag checks during run up. The second pole on the right mag enabled/disabled the starter relay. I wired it so the right mag (non-impulse) had to be off to enable the starter circuit. Of course the master switch also had to be on before the starter could spin.

The downside to this setup would be that I’d need to remember to turn the right mag off if I ever had to attempt an airborne starter-assisted restart.

In general, I strongly prefer a start button versus the key. There are many ways to disable the start button to prevent theft or inadvertent activation. If I ever have the time and money to do a complete renovation of my Rocket II panel, I will definitely install a starter push button switch on the stick.

 

[Desert Rat]

I have a push to start on the panel for my plane. It's the Stein switch that's normally flush with the panel so you have to be intentional to push it in. I also have a second parallel starter path with one of the stick buttons that's protected by a guarded arming switch above the radio stack that throws a CAS message saying "Stick Start Armed"

The reason for the stick start circuit is that I wasn't sure how hard it would be to hold the stick aft while doing a hot start on my fuel injected tail dragger. Turns out the answer is "not very hard," so I'd likely not add that circuit again and may remove it at some point. The Rocket guys with the big engines have a higher concern about the old girl wanting to face plant during an accidental high RPM starting oopsie, so that makes quite a bit of sense.

For those concerned about the potential downside of a push button instead of a key, I get it. Those concerns are valid. But it's equally valid that there are a ton of Pipers out there with push button starters as well as pretty much every Cessna prop twin and we don't seem to have a problem with those.

I have no hidden switch or arcane procedure. Turn the master on, push the button labeled "Engine Start." There's no key at all for my airplane. I'm more worried about somebody stealing the avionics than the plane. If they steal the radios, I'd rather have it unlocked so they don't also break the canopy.

 

[Webb]

For those with starter push-buttons on the stick. What grip are you using? I'm seeing lots of grips limited to fewer amps than the starter solenoid requires.

Tosten grip. The index button is a start button. There is also a toggle switch on the panel to disable the index button. And there is a normal start button on the panel.

You are correct thinking the stick wiring is not sufficient for the starter solenoid. In order to use a stick start button, a solenoid must be installed to engage the normal starter circuit. Wiring for the start buttons is a simple parallel circuit. Either start button will close the circuit.

 

[mike_tailwind]

I used a momentary contact key switch. I was originally going to use a push button, but the thought of some kid (or adult) pressing the button when the plane is sitting out on the show line at Oshkosh changed my mind.

 

[Dad's RV-10]

I used a momentary contact key switch. I was originally going to use a push button, but the thought of some kid (or adult) pressing the button when the plane is sitting out on the show line at Oshkosh changed my mind.

After they switched your Master on.

 

[lucas2696]

I have a push to start on the panel for my plane. It's the Stein switch that's normally flush with the panel so you have to be intentional to push it in.

I have the same start switch, I've actually considered making a flip up style switch guard for it. I'm not so worried about accidentally engaging it on the ground, but in the air. In rough air I could see accidentally hitting it and grenading my starter. If I had toggle switches for the mags, I like the idea of the using the right mag being off to arm the starter switch, unfortunately it currently has an ACS key switch for mags. maybe in the future if I have to re-arrange the center column for the C/S prop I could integrate that change then.

 

[Desert Rat]

I have the same start switch, I've actually considered making a flip up style switch guard for it. I'm not so worried about accidentally engaging it on the ground, but in the air. In rough air I could see accidentally hitting it and grenading my starter. If I had toggle switches for the mags, I like the idea of the using the right mag being off to arm the starter switch, unfortunately it currently has an ACS key switch for mags. maybe in the future if I have to re-arrange the center column for the C/S prop I could integrate that change then.

Human factors best practices dictate that stuff like start switches should be in an out of the way place on the panel so that your hand isn't fluttering around that general vicinity when you're doing other stuff. Mine is like that, but on a small panel like an RV, thats obviously not always possible.

No need to make a switch guard if you want to go that way. They can be had on Amazon for less that 10 bucks. Just search "push button switch guard"

 

[Hangar 1271]

I had some similar thoughts when discussing my new panel with my avionics guy.

I thought about the fob and how much fun that’d be if either the fob battery died or the associated electronics went bad.

I have 2 standard magnetos and opted for a key switch and a hidden switch to kill the mags

I was worried about a mag kill switch so I put mine on the starter. I believe I could restart the engine in flight by windmilling the prop but couldn't do much if the mag switches fail.

 

[Richard Connell]

The downside to this setup would be that I’d need to remember to turn the right mag off if I ever had to attempt an airborne starter-assisted restart.

Can be real downsides. Plus one day someone else will likely own or fly the plane too. So non standard start sequences need to be carefully considered imho.
A alternative way of grounding the non impulse mag is to have a dpst on the starter button or switch.
I did have a starter isolate switch on my 7 which I removed when I sold it.

Engine stopped

Only just worked up the courage to post this. Constructive comments welcome, particularly those directed at solutions. Keep the flamethrowers stored. About 1 month ago during Phase 1 testing. Top of the first ever stall turn. Left rudder. Yaw established. Throttle to idle. Propellor stops...

vansairforce.net

 

[Low Pass]

You asked Brandon, so here goes. Started with a conventional, expensive off-L-R-Both-Start key switch. I ended up never taking the key out so I wouldn't be out somewhere and lose it - and be stuck. Also didn't want to have to disassemble the key switch and figure out how to "hot wire" it if I was trying to get home with a failed switch.

Next panel revision. Removed key switch, and installed two toggles and a momentary toggle - L & R ignition and starter. All are far right side of panel. What's the risk vs. benefit. Risk 1 - Stolen plane? Only happened once in the US as best I can recall. And the plane wasn't damaged when recovered. Risk 2 - Hit the starter engage switch or ignition/mag switch unintentionally? Never done it in 18, 20 years since I changed configuration. And I can hot wire it in about 30 seconds with a jumper.

Last, some old timer told me once that "real airplanes don't have keys." That ought to be worth some comments.

PS. RV-6A new to me, built by other has a key switch. Key stays in the ignition...

 

[Xkuzme1]

For those with starter push-buttons on the stick. What grip are you using? I'm seeing lots of grips limited to fewer amps than the starter solenoid requires.

When I push my starter, it contacts a starter relay. There is too much amperage running through the wiring for my Tostens grip. I don’t remember who I used… but there are lots of boards available. My relay board controls my starter, trim, and flaps.

 

[rockyfatcat]

I was worried about a mag kill switch so I put mine on the starter. I believe I could restart the engine in flight by windmilling the prop but couldn't do much if the mag switches fail.

Grounding the mag kills it. So a kill switch is only grounded when in the correct position.

I have a switch with a guarded cover only accessible through the oil door. Closing the switch cover flips the seitch and ungrounds the magneto.

 

[David Z]

Tosten grip. The index button is a start button. There is also a toggle switch on the panel to disable the index button. And there is a normal start button on the panel.

You are correct thinking the stick wiring is not sufficient for the starter solenoid. In order to use a stick start button, a solenoid must be installed to engage the normal starter circuit. Wiring for the start buttons is a simple parallel circuit. Either start button will close the circuit.

When I push my starter, it contacts a starter relay. There is too much amperage running through the wiring for my Tostens grip. I don’t remember who I used… but there are lots of boards available. My relay board controls my starter, trim, and flaps.

Just so I'm understanding correctly. The stick button controls a small relay that controls the starter solenoid?

The starter relay is something like 4amps, and most stick switches are limited to 1 or 2 amps.

Some of the Ray Allen grips (G205) can handle 5 amps. Would that be able to control the starter solenoid directly, without a the use of a relay?

 

[Webb]

Just so I'm understanding correctly. The stick button controls a small relay that controls the starter solenoid?

The starter relay is something like 4amps, and most stick switches are limited to 1 or 2 amps.

Some of the Ray Allen grips (G205) can handle 5 amps. Would that be able to control the starter solenoid directly, without a the use of a relay?

Maybe this will help. I also put a LED next to the panel cutoff switch to remind me the stick switch is live so I can disable after starting so it can be accidentally pushed.

 

[Xkuzme1]

Just so I'm understanding correctly. The stick button controls a small relay that controls the starter solenoid?

The starter relay is something like 4amps, and most stick switches are limited to 1 or 2 amps.

Some of the Ray Allen grips (G205) can handle 5 amps. Would that be able to control the starter solenoid directly, without a the use of a relay?

I believe that would work. I’m not sure but I think you’re supposed to plan a wiring load by average of 50%. So if you have a draw of 4 amps, the wire has to ne able to retain 6 amps. Don’t shoot me if I’m wrong. I havnt dealt with info like that for a while.

 

[Steve]

I replaced my key switch using Nuckolls suggestion shown as VIEW B, attached. I bought the Carling DPST switches and the push button START switch from Stein.
I usually always kept the key in the switch except for those times when I had to fish it out of my pocket after getting strapped in.

 

[RV7A Flyer]

I guess I don't understand all the obsession with "hidden switches" or some other jerry-rigged "solution". Keyed switches are used in millions of applications all the over the world, and there is a huge variety of switch types to please your fancy. Sure, do whatever you want, but I just don't get it...

Removed key switch, and installed two toggles and a momentary toggle - L & R ignition and starter. All are far right side of panel. What's the risk vs. benefit. Risk 1 - Stolen plane? Only happened once in the US as best I can recall. And the plane wasn't damaged when recovered. Risk 2 - Hit the starter engage switch or ignition/mag switch unintentionally? Never done it in 18, 20 years

It only takes once, though, to potentially injure or kill someone, whoever does it...you, somebody assisting you with maintenance, some idiot kid at a fly-in, whatever. Forget about the ignition toggles...the engine doesn't have to *start* to kill someone. Just read up on people clocked on the head during a compression leakdown check when the prop spins due to the pressure in the cylinder.

This isn't even a single-fault-tolerant solution. It's zero-fault-tolerant.

 

[Low Pass]

I guess I don't understand all the obsession with "hidden switches" or some other jerry-rigged "solution". Keyed switches are used in millions of applications all the over the world, and there is a huge variety of switch types to please your fancy. Sure, do whatever you want, but I just don't get it...



It only takes once, though, to potentially injure or kill someone, whoever does it...you, somebody assisting you with maintenance, some idiot kid at a fly-in, whatever. Forget about the ignition toggles...the engine doesn't have to *start* to kill someone. Just read up on people clocked on the head during a compression leakdown check when the prop spins due to the pressure in the cylinder.

This isn't even a single-fault-tolerant solution. It's zero-fault-tolerant.

Sure it is. Plane is always under controlled access. Then master has to be energized and the start switch activated to energize the starter. To energize/enable the ignition requires access to the plane, activation of the switch, and then someone pulling the prop through. (A keyed ignition can also be left on or misaligned during maintenance.). Last, everyone working around small planes must remember that props are like guns. They’re always loaded.

 

[walkman]

I’m probably going to die then. I have an off-on toggle for my electronic ignition and an off-on-on(mom) for the starter. Was the minimum number of connections and switches i could come up with.

 

[David Z]

Don't go looking at any turboprop. From King Airs to Dash-8s, a couple of toggle switches and a prop is turning. Actually starting the engine is a bit more complex, but the prop will happily spin on the starter until the windings are burnt up.

FWIW, the turbine is easier to start, but also easier to do very wrong.

 

[Lkitson]

I put the start button on my infinity stick grip (connected to the VPX which disables the starter circuit when the engine is running). I put a starter enable/disable switch on the panel so both it and the master have to be on for the starter to engage. For security/safety I installed "U" shaped switch guards and I use a long bolt with a padlock through the guards to prevent the ALT, BAT, MAG and Start switches from being moved to the on position. As soon as I shut down that bolt gets installed

 

[GyroF-16]

I put the start button on my infinity stick grip (connected to the VPX which disables the starter circuit when the engine is running). I put a starter enable/disable switch on the panel so both it and the master have to be on for the starter to engage. For security/safety I installed "U" shaped switch guards and I use a long bolt with a padlock through the guards to prevent the ALT, BAT, MAG and Start switches from being moved to the on position. As soon as I shut down that bolt gets installed

Good info here.
I’m planning to install an Infinity stick grip and use a button on it for the starter, along with a “Starter Arm” switch like yours.
What is the “VPX” you mention (also mentioned in the Infinity website)? Unfortunately, I’m not very knowledgeable on electronics and associated acronyms.