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Thoughts on Hartzell purchase of E-Mag
- Thread starter LeoKenner
- Start date
After 543 hours of flying time, my EMAG P114s are starting to show shaft play during the conditional inspection. Repair is now being done at Quality Aircraft Accessories in Tulsa OKLAHOMA. I just sent them out on Friday and I will post an update when I get them back....
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That’s awesome. Can you ask them what bearings they are using?
Hey Mark - did they quote you a price? I'm also about to ship my spare there for a bearing upgrade/repair. I'd be very interested in your experience. With Brad it was fine - I shipped mine there a couple of times for the code upgrades.
Mickey, I didn't get an exact price. I called and spoke with Tyler Burrows. He sent me a link and a email form. I checked repair and overhaul boxes and listed the issue as Excessive Shaft Play. I am hoping they will honor the prices from the Emag website, but who knows. I will post what ever I find out.... Tyler, said it's about a two week turnaround time.
Also my Emags are # 5301 & 5302.
Easy to get caught up in the Big Corp bashing - god knows they deserve it most times. That said, I’m compelled to say I had a great interaction w Hartzell in regard to the rebuild of my RV14’s Whirlwind composite prop last year (at just over 600 hours it was starting to spit grease). They actually took over for a whirlwind recommended shop that was dropping the ball. Cost was less than whirlwind originally quoted me. My interactions with Hartzells tech guys were first rate. Needless to say I was very pleasantly surprised.
I nearly didn’t post this - but decided even the big guys need a shout out if they’re doing well. My hope is that they will realize the experimental market, while we may be a bit frugal compared to the certified guys, are worth treating well. And, if they do so, we will reciprocate.
I nearly didn’t post this - but decided even the big guys need a shout out if they’re doing well. My hope is that they will realize the experimental market, while we may be a bit frugal compared to the certified guys, are worth treating well. And, if they do so, we will reciprocate.
I've long been a fan of Hartzell propellers, so to be honest, I cringe a little when I see the name spread across other subsidiaries of the parent holding corporation, Signia Aerospace. Each of those subsidiaries operates with their own product(s) and business culture. Some of those products have proven to be less than optimum. I think we should remember Hartzell Propeller, Hartzell Aerospace, and Hartzell Whatevergetsaquirednext are not the same. Some of the lines will continue to be great, and some not.
My Emags are # 2409 and 2410. There were no log book entries indicating they had been off the engine for inspection or otherwise in the 900+ hrs since installation. I didn't notice any excessive play in the shaft, but I elected to ship them in for overhaul, inclusive of the 'full prop strike' option regardless. My understanding is emag air are moving shops in January (I could be mistaken), so I wanted to get these serviced before then by the original techs. My mags arrived in Tx on 11/6, I received a call and request for service payment on 11/20 and they were back to me on 11/25 or 11/26 for install. Overhaul cost was $585 per mag. All in all, not too bad, and its nice knowing I have the latest firmware that helps mitigate kickbacks (important with lightweight composite props).
Indeed, I called and spoke to Tyler and he said $585 is the price for the "Prop Strike" overhaul, and the "Flat Fee Check Up" was $550. Can't imagine going to all that trouble and then trying to save $35, but who knows. I'm not clear what the difference is between these two services. https://www.qaa.com/shipping-document-form
I have a spare that needs a refresh due to a loose bearing, but will wait a while until they get more comfortable with the process since I'm not in a hurry.
Interesting that they have changed to a QAA website. I sent my mags in for overhaul to Azle, TX, but maybe they sent them on to Tulsa. The original eMag Air website has details on the repair options: https://emagair.com/service-and-repair/
The difference is outlined below:
Flat Fee Check-Up – $550
- Easy to understand. Covers all mechanical wear parts that are required – not an automatic replacement of all parts. If you want complete mechanical replacement, see Prop Strike Service below.
- Easy to budget.
- Easy to compare/contrast with magneto service fees
Prop Strike Service – $585
- Replacement of all mechanical parts regardless of arrival condition.
Good points here and why many companies think twice about using their flagship as the brand when they move to become a conglomerate. The benefit is the name brings recognition and confidence, pulling along the subsidiaries as they try to grow their marketshare. The risk is not forcing the subs to follow the leaders approach that got them there, as the subs can kill the hard earned reputation over time if they don't.
Hartzel has a great reputation. Kind of scratch my head wondering why they decided to put all these acquired brands under the Hartzel flag, as most of the acqwuired brands had pretty good marketshare and market presence.
For pMag, I would assume the time and money Brad invested to put the 200 series pMags on the certified path was the incentive.
Carl
Probably as it is the only brand with an industry-recognizable name outside the experimental world. My hope is they do push ahead with the certification of the pMag, despite the high cost. I do believe it is a generally superior product to the other options on the market, as its the only self-powered option out there.
For now.
I just got called from QAA and the flat fee repair prices are correct. I went with the Prop Strike Service for $585.
So I'm doing a CI this week and yesterday checked my PMAGS that have 285 hrs on them and approx 3 yrs old. One of them, #7489 has a small amount of slop in shaft! I called Quality Aircraft Accessories in Tulsa and talked to Tyler, the guy that works on Pmags. He said it needs to be updated. I asked how much and he pretty much told me it would be at least the base price of 550. I hadn't planned on any upgrades in the plane this year but I guess I'll send both of my Pmags in and get them updated with the new stacked bearing design. Of coarse, I'm not thrilled at having to cough up $1200 or so for something I paid over 4 grand for three years ago! I wished I had waited another year to purchase them and I probably would have gotten the updated stacked bearings.
I find my bearings need replaced about every 500 hours or so. It’s basically turned into the cost of a 500hr check on a certified mag!
Is that with the updated 3 bearing stack? Mine at 914hrs didn't have any noticeable shaft slop, and I believe it was a 2 bearing stack based on the low serial number.
Mine have been to EMAG multiple times within the past couple years and within 6 months as the most recent. If they don’t “update” them when you send them in then I don’t know why they haven’t offered. I always told them I want everything overhauled to the most current spec.
I also want to know I’ve never heard of them talk about any bearing mods just bearing replacement at Emag
I would be pretty confident that you can't just stick a third bearing in a case designed for two. So wouldn't consider this an upgrade without them providing a new case supporting the 3rd bearing..
Just some input, as I have designed and made similar devices, but never seen the inside of a Pmag.
Well said
My worry as a new E-Mag user is that they could decide to make a firmware update that locks out the ability of the user to change the settings for the B-Curve option. Could they decide that allowing the end user to change the timing settings could result in exposing them to liability?
For me, using software (as you can’t buy a new EI Commander and the Engine Bridge is approaching $500), I’ve been able to make fine tuning changes and my O-360 with one Slick and one E-Mag has never run smoother or better. For my engine (rebuilt carb, redone baffle seals, good plugs and wires) it was NOT happy with the fixed A-Curve even with multiple “clocking” attempts (very high CHTs and rough in cruise).
If I couldn’t have fine tuned a custom B-Curve, I think I’d have to seriously consider going back to another Slick. I REALLY hope they don’t lock us out of adjusting them digitally because I couldn’t use it with the A-Curve and be okay with the results. Both the engine (easy starting, acceptable climb CHTs, super smooth cruise) and myself are VERY happy with a tuned custom B-Curve. If they don’t leave this ability in place they will lose this customer.
For me, using software (as you can’t buy a new EI Commander and the Engine Bridge is approaching $500), I’ve been able to make fine tuning changes and my O-360 with one Slick and one E-Mag has never run smoother or better. For my engine (rebuilt carb, redone baffle seals, good plugs and wires) it was NOT happy with the fixed A-Curve even with multiple “clocking” attempts (very high CHTs and rough in cruise).
If I couldn’t have fine tuned a custom B-Curve, I think I’d have to seriously consider going back to another Slick. I REALLY hope they don’t lock us out of adjusting them digitally because I couldn’t use it with the A-Curve and be okay with the results. Both the engine (easy starting, acceptable climb CHTs, super smooth cruise) and myself are VERY happy with a tuned custom B-Curve. If they don’t leave this ability in place they will lose this customer.
Rdog420
Well Known Member
As i understand it the experimental firmware will be the same as it is from E-mag. Only the certified verison Hartzell is producing won't be programmable or have the ability to advance timing.
Rdog420
Well Known Member
when were the last two times you had the overhaul? After August 2022 new mags (Serial 8245 and up) and any overhauls will get a new shaft, rear housing, and a larger bearing stack on the rear of the shaft. Per the manual this changes the inspection period from every annual to every 500 hours.
2024
But I’ve sent them in after 2022 before that as well. They seem to last about 500hrs for me.
I talked to Tyler at Quality Aircraft Accessories in Tulsa this morning and he told me my Pmags would get a new shaft with upgraded bearings but he cautioned me that getting parts has him concerned so may not be a fast turnaround and I'm will to deal with that. I'm gonna send both of them in and I will report when I get them back what it cost.
Could you ask them what parts/part numbers are used?
Just got home from a trip and a Box from QAA was waiting for me. So it was a two week turnaround on the repair/overhaul of my P Model P114s.
Just to Update my EMag P114s overhaul.... EMags installed, ground run was normal, 30 Minute test flight normal. QAA did a great job with the overhaul, reasonable turn time, the Mags were well packaged, and update to the latest version. Total cost was about $1200 for two Mags. I would use them again.
Do you know if yours came with the upgraded bearing stack?
No, I am not 100% sure what they did internally. The EMags came back and everything was noticeably tighter. I just reinstalled and timed them, quick starting, 1 to 2 blades. then sent my post inspection test flight data to Savvy for review. They agreed, everything looks good. Mags came with a new sticker: P20 FWH R21. Been busy flying for work, so sorry for the delayed response.
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WingnutWick
Well Known Member
I’m sad to hear about this as the customer service over the years with Brad and their team was outstanding and is what kept me a loyal E-Mag customer. If I had an issue I’d have a temp replacement overnighted before I even received my old mag. I recently had to send in one off my 10 due to failing the internal power check and hadn’t heard anything back for almost a month. I called and spoke with the gentleman ant QAA and got the feeling he was in over his head. It’s been months now and no word. Meanwhile the plane (my work commuter) has been down. A bit of a bummer considering how often I have had to send them in over the last 10 years.
I'd recommend buying a spare pmag - they sometimes become available on the used market. That's what I did, and it's a good thing - I got the dreaded loose bearing recently. The pmag is in for repair now. Interestingly the bearing issue was flagged on my EI Commander (Thanks Bill!) - I hope the EngineBridge does the same, but I don't have experience with it. AoG is no fun.
I am reminded of a past experience. Way back in in 1988 I was running a brand new Acura store. One day Richard Grassgreen dropped in with his wife and two teenage daughters. Given Mr. Grassgreen's position as a not-yet-disgraced lord of the financial universe in our community, I jumped in to help him buy three new Legends, one for each of the ladies. Of course being me, I then asked if he would like one for himself. He said no, and that he liked Jaguars. I suggested Jags were not particularly reliable, and the closest dealer was 100 miles away. He smiled and replied "I have two, one to drive and one to put in the shop".
So if reading this correctly, you sent your pmag to QAA ,the place in Tulsa , in early 2026 and it has taken over two months and you still don t have the mag back from them ?
Rdog420
Well Known Member
How often have you had to send them in and what was breaking on them?
akschu
Well Known Member
After learning a bit about how these work (see other thread) and seeing how many people here have sent units in force service, it seems like the mechanical issues were never completely solved.
Putting the pieces together, it’s reasonable to assume that the issue is rooted in some harmonics that doesn’t apply to mags due to weight of the shaft, or the cushion, or some other factor. Another interesting puzzle piece is that some have reported erratic rpm as an indication of failure and someone above said their Engine Bridge noticed the problem. That means that the little magnet came loose or the shaft had so much play that the computer couldn’t determine accurate timing.
In my mind the two play on each other in that it’s not just an annoyance that the emag needs service, rather an unnoticed failure could incorrectly time the engine (another new thread hints at this).
I don’t understand why people love the pmags so much when they don’t appear to be more reliable than mags (a point I think I’ve seen Walt make a number of times). If you are going to rely on a mechanical solution, why not stick with mags?
One more data point: I just saw a video of Vic removing a slick and surefly from his helicopter and installing two bendix mags. He comments on how smooth the engine is…. This got me thinking. Is it smooth in the way that many mechanics notice that the engine runs better after an oil change, or was it actually smoother?
Probably actually smoother because having disparate types of ignition means they were firing at different times due to one being statically timed and the other advancing. In that case, what is better? Having some advance, or having a smooth running engine?
Suppose you want advance and smooth running, then I guess you would have two emags, but wouldn’t that double you chances of mag problems on your 50 hour xc you’ve been planning for a year?
Putting the pieces together, it’s reasonable to assume that the issue is rooted in some harmonics that doesn’t apply to mags due to weight of the shaft, or the cushion, or some other factor. Another interesting puzzle piece is that some have reported erratic rpm as an indication of failure and someone above said their Engine Bridge noticed the problem. That means that the little magnet came loose or the shaft had so much play that the computer couldn’t determine accurate timing.
In my mind the two play on each other in that it’s not just an annoyance that the emag needs service, rather an unnoticed failure could incorrectly time the engine (another new thread hints at this).
I don’t understand why people love the pmags so much when they don’t appear to be more reliable than mags (a point I think I’ve seen Walt make a number of times). If you are going to rely on a mechanical solution, why not stick with mags?
One more data point: I just saw a video of Vic removing a slick and surefly from his helicopter and installing two bendix mags. He comments on how smooth the engine is…. This got me thinking. Is it smooth in the way that many mechanics notice that the engine runs better after an oil change, or was it actually smoother?
Probably actually smoother because having disparate types of ignition means they were firing at different times due to one being statically timed and the other advancing. In that case, what is better? Having some advance, or having a smooth running engine?
Suppose you want advance and smooth running, then I guess you would have two emags, but wouldn’t that double you chances of mag problems on your 50 hour xc you’ve been planning for a year?
It depends on the time but mine usually don’t make it beyond 500…maybe I’ll get lucky this time!
It’s always excessive endshaft axial play.
Call QAA this doesn’t sound right if you only need the prop strike service (not any new electrical components). My first one I sent in last month took less than 3 days and my second one I sent in a couple weeks ago will finish this week.
No, having plugs firing at different points will not change the smoothness, nor will the manufacturer of the unit (a spark is a spark). However, total timing (combination of the two spark events) will. A simple example - each at 25 gives 25; o0ne at 23 and other at 27, gives 25. One at 30 and one at 25, gives 27.5. Not really that simple, just a way to visualize.
On my 320, I set the idle advance to 35 and it runs quite a bit smoother than 25. It tapers back to 25 as the RPMs go above 1000. No benefit to that seen on my 540, so left it at 25.
Sorry, but need to rant a little.
Sending 2 more PMags in for overhaul. Each with less than 300 hours TTSN. One for drive shaft slop, and another with electronics issues. QAA confirmed that all internals are upgraded but the price is now $895 per ignition! I know we all talk about big numbers and another hundred here and there is just the cost of doing business, but for comparison: In 2016 the overhaul cost for a Whirlwind Constant speed prop was $650. Refinished and painted blades, hub overhauled.... Let that sink in for a minute.
Sending 2 more PMags in for overhaul. Each with less than 300 hours TTSN. One for drive shaft slop, and another with electronics issues. QAA confirmed that all internals are upgraded but the price is now $895 per ignition! I know we all talk about big numbers and another hundred here and there is just the cost of doing business, but for comparison: In 2016 the overhaul cost for a Whirlwind Constant speed prop was $650. Refinished and painted blades, hub overhauled.... Let that sink in for a minute.
That's what you get when "value" gets traded for "value extraction"
Rotorhead8
I'm New Here
