Hangar survey and discussion

[Scott Hersha]

Man, this thread is depressing. I feel very, very lucky to live at an airpark in central Oregon away from congested airspace and government oversight.

Me too. I feel very fortunate to be a hangar owner at our uncontrolled airport in Ohio. There are over 100 hangars at HAO, all privately owned. The only building the county owns is the FBO terminal building, which they lease under contract to the FBO. I’ve owned this T-hangar for 26 years and we just renegotiated our lease with the county for 40 more years (originally 60 years total). That lease will outlive my usefulness by 30 years, so there will still be value in my hangar ownership for resale value. I’ll be able to sell it for at least three times what I paid for it, which will more than pay for my total cost of ownership during that time (semi-annual assessments for land lease, property tax, electricity, and building insurance). At HAO we are required to have aircraft or aircraft projects housed primarily. We can have other things stored, but the main storage purpose is aviation.

 

[skirting_virga]

This one was a real (you know what).
I call Greeley every few months to check my waiting list position. See below. My word against theirs and the staff changes every year or two. So much for a hangar at Greeley.

-10/15/2024, 11:15 AM, 6m:18s.
-3/14/25, 4:01 PM, 8m:16s. Will told me I was #4 and should get a hangar sometime Summer 2025.
-10/30/2025, 12:57, 2m 51s. New Manager Garrett said I was #14. No idea what happened. Dropped from #4.

I don't know about Greeley in particular, but hangar wait lists are notoriously corrupt. It's ridiculous.

 

[RV-9erA]

This one was a real (you know what).
I call Greeley every few months to check my waiting list position. See below. My word against theirs and the staff changes every year or two. So much for a hangar at Greeley.

-10/15/2024, 11:15 AM, 6m:18s.
-3/14/25, 4:01 PM, 8m:16s. Will told me I was #4 and should get a hangar sometime Summer 2025.
-10/30/2025, 12:57, 2m 51s. New Manager Garrett said I was #14. No idea what happened. Dropped from #4.

Spent many flying hours out of GXY but no longer living in Colorado. Was told that many pilots moved from FNL to GXY when they were attempting to turn FNL into a commercial airport, which made no sense with DEN less than 40-nm from FNL. But now -- United Airlines only offers bus service from FNL to DEN with no other commercial air service remaining at FNL. But, many GA aircraft owners that were based at FNL felt they were being pushed-off the field, so they moved to GXY, which made the waiting list much longer.

 

[bob865]

To get a hangar at my home drome, you have to be a member of the "good old boys" club. There is an "official" airport wait list, but when someone moves out of a hangar it gets subleased to a buddy who is wanting a hangar so none ever come available so the wait list never moves. I brought this up at an airport commission meeting once and it went over like a fart in church because several of the commissioners were running the club. I faced some backlash after that. Nothing specific, but my name was mud across the airport. A little later, my partner was pulled to the side by a guy and told he needed to pipe down or he was going to make enemies.

First time I even realized the troupes in mafia movies are a real thing.

 

[Caveman]

The FAA has ruled on hangar use and updated its regulations and guidance about 9 or ten years ago IIRC. I dealt with this as an airport board chairman and later as a manager. Our small town had the town lawyer draft an eviction letter and I was charged with the unpleasant task of mailing the letter and dealing with the fallout from hangar occupants. We developed minimum standards for our airport that served as guidelines for future use and updated hangar contracts to further our cause.
Here are some links that might be helpful when discussing hangar availability with your manager:

Frequently asked questions
Advisory Circular
Law Firm Interpretation

Ask to see a hangar contract and the airport's minimum standards documents. Of course, this will not apply to private airports. Grant assurances may be at risk if the FAA becomes involved. This is a minefield for many airport managers.

Thanks,

Joe

 

[Amadeus]

But, many GA aircraft owners that were based at FNL felt they were being pushed-off the field, so they moved to GXY, which made the waiting list much longer.

I understand that wait lists get longer. However new additions to the wait list get added onto the bottom; not at the top as at Greeley.

 

[Amadeus]

I don't know about Greeley in particular, but hangar wait lists are notoriously corrupt. It's ridiculous.

The only wait list I have seen that isn't corrupt is at SRQ in Sarasota. It publishes the list on the website with date name was added and the original place on the list along with current position. The only time it ever deviates is when a hurricane damages hangars and tenants are displaced. Those displaced tenants are placed at the top of the list and are first to get their old hangar back once repaired or rebuilt.

Now KFFT in Frankfort, Kentucky is as corrupt as Greeley, Colorado. Not only do names get moved around there they sometimes disappear from the list completely!

 

[ryschneider]

Along Colorado's Front Range, Meadow Lake Airport (KFLY) is unique: the land immediately surrounding the public-use runway is privately owned. This setup, combined with low commercial property costs, has attracted non-aviation businesses on the field, including vehicle, boat, and detailing shops. Each hangar or hangar complex owns the land vs most airports with land-leases.

The most biggest barrier to development (at least in CO) is the excessively complex and time-consuming county and state regulatory process. A prime example is the contradictory restroom mandate which was introduced during my hangar development project: state law requires a restroom in every building, yet county zoning limits well and septic installation to parcels of 2.5 acres or more. This creates a nearly impossible standard. I believe this "newer" requirement, coupled with the high fees for stormwater, road impact, and permits, is intentional making it prohibitively expensive for developers.

This regulatory environment makes development financially unviable. I sold nine units in my ten-T-hangar complex for $145,000 each and only achieved a break-even return. Although space exists for 15 additional box hangars, the current framework has completely eliminated my appetite for the next phase. Frankly, entering the hangar-building and land development business here is a test of sanity. I built the first ten T-hangars simply because I needed a spot for my RV-7.

 

[RV-9erA]

I understand that wait lists get longer. However new additions to the wait list get added onto the bottom; not at the top as at Greeley.

Yes -- that's the way is should be, but the new Greeley (GXY) airport manager also came from Fort Collins Loveland (FNL), were many of the GXY hangars are now rented to previous FNL tenants oddly enough!

Best way to keep airport management in-check is by attending your airport commission meetings and also contacting city and/or county council officials regarding such matters. It worked for us after Paine Field (KPAE) added commercial air service (Alaska and Frontier) along with a new privately owned passenger terminal. So, their "heads got so big" that they nearly "mowed over" 600 of their existing GA hangar tenants. But, after our many interactions and re-education attempts over several years, they hired a new airport manager, who is also building an RV-7A and highly supportive of GA, which has really helped our situation here at PAE.

 

[wirejock]

Yes -- that's the way is should be, but the new Greeley (GXY) airport manager also came from Fort Collins Loveland (FNL), were many of the GXY hangars are now rented to previous FNL tenants oddly enough!

Best way to keep airport management in-check is by attending your airport commission meetings and also contacting city and/or county council officials regarding such matters. It worked for us after Paine Field (KPAE) added commercial air service (Alaska and Frontier) along with a new privately owned passenger terminal. So, their "heads got so big" that they nearly "mowed over" 600 of their existing GA hangar tenants. But, after our many interactions and re-education attempts over several years, they hired a new airport manager, who is also building an RV-7A and highly supportive of GA, which has really helped our situation here at PAE.

I spent a career (30 years) in local government. I got to see the back door deals first hand. I was so "Boy Scout" I always paid for my lunch when vendors wanted to treat. Sadly, Boy Scouts don't get to the top, but I did learn to play the game legally and moved from the lowest pay position (school bus driver) to the highest non contract position (Technology Project Manager). It's all how you play. I saved them so much money, they left me alone. Millions.
I'm not playing this game. I have a nice hangar and unless a miracle happens at GXY, I will stay till my flying days are done.
As I mentioned, I don't blame the current staff. It doesn't matter what format the list is in, anyone could have altered it if it's not a public document. Paper or electronic can easily be manipulated. I suppose I could make some folks really nervous if I issued an open records request for all communications related to waiting lists.

 

[RV-9erA]

I spent a career (30 years) in local government. I got to see the back door deals first hand. I was so "Boy Scout" I always paid for my lunch when vendors wanted to treat. Sadly, Boy Scouts don't get to the top, but I did learn to play the game legally and moved from the lowest pay position (school bus driver) to the highest non contract position (Technology Project Manager). It's all how you play. I saved them so much money, they left me alone. Millions.
I'm not playing this game. I have a nice hangar and unless a miracle happens at GXY, I will stay till my flying days are done.
As I mentioned, I don't blame the current staff. It doesn't matter what format the list is in, anyone could have altered it if it's not a public document. Paper or electronic can easily be manipulated. I suppose I could make some folks really nervous if I issued an open records request for all communications related to waiting lists.

I hear you -- Greeley was my hometown and knew many of the people there, especially during the 70' and 80". After graduating from CSU, my wife and I moved to the Pacific NW near Everett (close to Paine Field), where they build and test fly Boeing widebody jets. Even though we have since retired (both are pilots), we will probably stay here even though it rains during the winter since Colorado has change so much!

Now -- since Fort Collins Loveland (FNL) had so many hangar tenants leave in fear of commercial service but no longer, have you considered looking at FNL or even CFO (Colorado Air and Space Port) for a hangar? I guess CFO might be a bit too close to KDEN for comfort, but many hangars appear to be available at CFO.

 

[wirejock]

I hear you -- Greeley was my hometown and knew many of the people there, especially during the 70' and 80". After graduating from CSU, my wife and I moved to the Pacific NW near Everett (close to Paine Field), where they build and test fly Boeing widebody jets. Even though we have since retired (both are pilots), we will probably stay here even though it rains during the winter since Colorado has change so much!

Now -- since Fort Collins Loveland (FNL) had so many hangar tenants leave in fear of commercial service but no longer, have you considered looking at FNL or even CFO (Colorado Air and Space Port) for a hangar? I guess CFO might be a bit too close to KDEN for comfort, but many hangars appear to be available at CFO.

I have a private rental at FNL. I like it. I just hate the tower trailer and all the flight school activity. Every day is like a bee's nest. The tower has no radar and not allowed to use ADSB. It's 100% visual.

 

[lr172]

I suppose I could make some folks really nervous if I issued an open records request for all communications related to waiting lists.

Had a friend at our airport that liked to poke the bear in regards to various acts of questionable behavior by airport management. Went so far as to make a FOIA request about spending, which apparently goes straight back to the airport manager. Two months later they found a weak reason to evict him. He appealed to city officials and they pretty much laughed. Sadly, it is tough to win a fight with gov't officials in small operations.

 

[wirejock]

Had a friend at our airport that liked to poke the bear in regards to various acts of questionable behavior by airport management. Went so far as to make a FOIA request about spending, which apparently goes straight back to the airport manager. Two months later they found a weak reason to evict him. He appealed to city officials and they pretty much laughed. Sadly, it is tough to win a fight with gov't officials in small operations.

Exactly. Shame.
I like my private hangar and the landlord couple are the sweetest. I think it's wise to stay put.

 

[RV-9erA]

I have a private rental at FNL. I like it. I just hate the tower trailer and all the flight school activity. Every day is like a bee's nest. The tower has no radar and not allowed to use ADSB. It's 100% visual.

Didn't FNL try using a remote tower when they had commercial operations? I was hearing that commercial flights were having too many close calls at FNL. At least, we now have ADS-B-In for our own ability to see traffic. There are many more training flights everywhere these days, especially with all these young fledglings building flight time to hopefully become airline pilots. We had ATP at KPAE for about 3-years, but they caused so many problems and traffic congestion issues that they had to leave. We already had three other flight schools at KPAE. It's actually less busy on weekends than during weekdays anymore with so much flight training going on!

 

[wirejock]

Didn't FNL try using a remote tower when they had commercial operations? I was hearing that commercial flights were having too many close calls at FNL. At least, we now have ADS-B-In for our own ability to see traffic. There are many more training flights everywhere these days, especially with all these young fledglings building flight time to hopefully become airline pilots. We had ATP at KPAE for about 3-years, but they caused so many problems and traffic congestion issues that they had to leave. We already had three other flight schools at KPAE. It's actually less busy on weekends than during weekdays anymore with so much flight training going on!

FNL had a remote. Now it has a trailer tower. It's a small trailer with a little build out in the center of the roof. No radar. No ADSB. Operates from 8AM-6PM. Three flight schools plus a few invidual operations. Listen to LiveATC. Pattern is full pretty much all day every day.

 

[David Paule]

The first of the three mid-air collisions at airports where I fly occurred at SMO, with a non-ADS-B tower in the 1960s. I was waiting for take-off clearance in a C150 when a C150 and a Cherokee collided at the turn to final. I saw one of the wings fluttering down.

Keep your head up and swiveling!

Of the three mid-airs, this was the only one where I didn't know at least one of the pilots.

Dave

 

[RV-9erA]

FNL had a remote. Now it has a trailer tower. It's a small trailer with a little build out in the center of the roof. No radar. No ADSB. Operates from 8AM-6PM. Three flight schools plus a few invidual operations. Listen to LiveATC. Pattern is full pretty much all day every day.

Then, you would feel right at home here at KPAE with our 580 average daily flight operations. But, we do have parallel runways with East and West spilt tower frequencies (132.95 for 16R-34L and 120.20 for 16L-34R and 121.80 for ground). It's also an FAA training tower, which can make things very interesting at times! How many daily operations is KFNL up to these days? Without in-cockpit ADS-B, things would get really hairy up here given how busy the tower guys get with the daily Boeing test flights, commercial passenger air service, the many corporate operations in and out, freight coming and going, Kenmore Air to and from the San Juan Islands, heavy maintenance, medivac flights, the three flight schools, all the surrounding flight schools who need tower practice and the 600 based GA aircraft here, as well.

And, waiting list averaging 4-years for county hangars.

A common sight from our cockpit view waiting for a mid-field takeoff clearance from 16R-34L at KPAE.

 

[roadrunner20]

Survey completed.
Florida has so many airports & airplanes. I just can’t figure out why the muni & county airports don’t build more hangars. It would be a great revenue stream. Too many airplanes waiting for a home. When you have a 5 year waiting list, build more hangars! It’s a no brainer!

 

[JonJay]

Survey completed.
Florida has so many airports & airplanes. I just can’t figure out why the muni & county airports don’t build more hangars. It would be a great revenue stream. Too many airplanes waiting for a home. When you have a 5 year waiting list, built more hangars! It’s a no brainer!

Sure. I’ll build them for them! Need a commitment for $1 sq.ft/mo as a minimum to make the math work, maybe more depending on local codes, politics, market, etc….
How does $900/mo for a T sound?
If you read the thread from the start, you’ll see the many reasons it’s not a “no brainer”. Folks simply can’t afford, or won’t pay what it takes for the investment to pencil, even to break even.

 

[rv6n6r]

I started this thread with a link to the AOPA survey and a limited ask surrounding a specific set of circumstances. I got answers (more or less) to my question, along with plenty of thread drift -- clearly hangars are a hot topic and sore spot with many! Which I already know as I've been involved in airport advocacy on many levels for a couple of decades, including a stint on the board of advisors for the AOPA Airport Support Network. So, most of these stories are already familiar to me.

What's frustrating is, other than (and in spite of) the FAA's 2016 hangar policy update, many if not most of the same problems persist. Local code gets more onerous. Waitlists are who you know not first come first served. Corporate continues to crowd out small GA. Hangars are filled with junk and not airplanes. We all see these things but what's to be done? Answering the survey is one step but that doesn't even touch on most of these issues.

Our talk on this forum may be cathartic but it's not going to change anything, and as I see it, the way forward is to make sure our frustration is known to our aviation organizations. To that end I suggest articulating your specific concerns and possible solutions (if any) in writing to AOPA and EAA, possibly through your airport's Airport Support Network volunteer. As a longtime ASNV myself I have found the program to be helpful on many fronts, but only in limited ways with respect to hangar issues. Perhaps a groundswell push from members would result in some more concrete action on the various hangar issues. Worth a shot anyway.

 

[RV-9erA]

Sure. I’ll build them for them! Need a commitment for $1 sq.ft/mo as a minimum to make the math work, maybe more depending on local codes, politics, market, etc….
How does $900/mo for a T sound?
If you read the thread from the start, you’ll see the many reasons it’s not a “no brainer”. Folks simply can’t afford, or won’t pay what it takes for the investment to pencil, even to break even.

Yes -- that's the sad truth about new privately built hangars. So, $900 x 12 months = $10,800 per year. And, if a pilot flies 100-hours per year, that's $108 per flight hour, and if a pilot flies 50-hours per year, which many do because flying in the winter isn't always an option, especially if you can only fly on weekends, so that's $216 per flight hour. In the past, airports built hangars to bring flight operations and economic benefit to airports and nearby cities and to access FAA grants from flight operations totaling millions of dollars per year in airport funding, expansion and improvements. In fact, it does make sense for airports, cities and counties to invest in hangars for these reasons!

 

[JonJay]

In the past, airports built hangars to bring flight operations and economic benefit to airports and nearby cities and t In fact, it does make sense…..

I want to believe this as this has been key to new development but I don’t think those that control the purse strings believe it, or just don’t have the funding if they do.
This is one of the challenges for the OP that started this thread. The City owns the airport and isn’t interested in funding new hangars. The airport has too few airplanes based there to garner Fed money. Without new hangars, there won’t be more planes based there.
The thread has kind of drifted, but the issues are all tied together.

 

[Webb]

Survey completed.
Florida has so many airports & airplanes. I just can’t figure out why the muni & county airports don’t build more hangars. It would be a great revenue stream. Too many airplanes waiting for a home. When you have a 5 year waiting list, build more hangars! It’s a no brainer!

I asked the airport manager why more T-Hangars haven't been built at our airport. Answer was a 6 unit would cost over 1/2 million and cost to rent would exceed what the market would bear. The quote above regarding $900/month is not unrealistic. Half mil is just building cost. Add other expenses such as electricity, water, maintenance, and insurance.

Let's see. #$500,000 / 6 = $83,333. 15 year note at 7% is about $750/month. Fixed cost $150/month. You're at $900 per month and no revenue stream yet. Just for grins, let's call it a smooth grand/month so you get that revenue stream.

Heck, a 40'X40' built at $50/sf is 80 grand.

 

[MacCool]

The hangar block where I lease my 44x40 ft T-hangar is the most recent at our airport. It's very nice as T-hangars go, built about 5 years ago. At the least, this thread has taught me to quite grumbling about having to pay the $200/month rent.

 

[wirejock]

I asked the airport manager why more T-Hangars haven't been built at our airport. Answer was a 6 unit would cost over 1/2 million and cost to rent would exceed what the market would bear. The quote above regarding $900/month is not unrealistic. Half mil is just building cost. Add other expenses such as electricity, water, maintenance, and insurance.

Let's see. #$500,000 / 6 = $83,333. 15 year note at 7% is about $750/month. Fixed cost $150/month. You're at $900 per month and no revenue stream yet. Just for grins, let's call it a smooth grand/month so you get that revenue stream.

Heck, a 40'X40' built at $50/sf is 80 grand.

I wish I could find one for $100K. Last two @ FNL sold for $250K. Way out of my league. I still wonder what the city is going to do when those land leases expire. Somehow I doubt it will be a simple renewal for another 15 years.

That's just part of it. Add on tap fees and costs for those mandatory utilities. Bathroom, waste water, natural gas, electricity. Add $100K to each hangar.

Municipalities are forcing GA out. People move close to airports then get upset about the noise. What they don't understand is all that GA brings. Flight schools, Pilots for Paws, Angel Flight, PALS, Young Eagles, etc. Preechin' to the choir. I hate to be a doomsayer, but it seems GA is in trouble.

Many thanks to Randall for starting this thread. I know it drifted, but it brought much needed attention to the forefront.

 

[YellowJacket RV9]

I asked the airport manager why more T-Hangars haven't been built at our airport. Answer was a 6 unit would cost over 1/2 million and cost to rent would exceed what the market would bear. The quote above regarding $900/month is not unrealistic. Half mil is just building cost. Add other expenses such as electricity, water, maintenance, and insurance.

I wonder if we really know what the market will bear. Many of us (those that have been fortunate enough to have one) have been beneficiaries of what I can imagine are largely subsidized hangars for a long time, so the market is probably fairly distorted at this point. While $900/month would be tough for me to swallow, I have a feeling there may still be demand in many areas at that price point. Regardless of the price, more hangars is good for GA. The people with the $$ may move into pricier, more convenient hangars, leaving a few more affordable ones for us peons.

Chris

 

[Radioflyer]

Survey done. I felt it important to do since this is a very important topic for GA. I hope to soon see survey report.

Although depressing, this has been a very interesting thread and timely for me. I think it is true that many municipalities with airports are sinking their own airports. Off airport land is valuable and they see airport land as a missed opportunity. YouTube famous Mike Patey has a big hangar project at KSPK, yet doesn’t seem bothered by any of the issues being brought up here.

 

[RV-9erA]

Municipalities are forcing GA out. People move close to airports then get upset about the noise. What they don't understand is all that GA brings. Flight schools, Pilots for Paws, Angel Flight, PALS, Young Eagles, etc.

And, GA airports for emergency relief during natural disasters, which tend to be happening more frequently. Also, new business growth, that provide "economic benefit" to an area, and need GA airports to access rural areas and smaller townships that also have GA airports.

 

[RV-9erA]

I wonder if we really know what the market will bear. Many of us (those that have been fortunate enough to have one) have been beneficiaries of what I can imagine are largely subsidized hangars for a long time, so the market is probably fairly distorted at this point. While $900/month would be tough for me to swallow, I have a feeling there may still be demand in many areas at that price point. Regardless of the price, more hangars is good for GA. The people with the $$ may move into pricier, more convenient hangars, leaving a few more affordable ones for us peons.

Chris

In terms of city and county hangars, the FAA requires airports to charge "fair market value" based on all other existing hangars in the local area, which does help. However, just 5-years ago, we were paying $250 per months for a single county owned T-hangar, which is now $520 a month and increasing every year.