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rv-10 rudder trim

TYK

TYK

Active Member
Benefactor
I've searched and not found quite what I'm looking for, mostly posts from several years ago.
I just don't like the looks of the hinge on the back of the rudder for electric trim and would like to do something that looks more "factory".
Has someone already invented this "wheel"?
I'm probably going with garmin, I wanted to like Dynon/Advanced but G seemed more intuitive to me. Does G autopilot/yaw damper solve this problem without an external adjustable tab?
Thanks,
Tim
 
I have about 500 hours in an RV-10 that has a manual rudder trim installed under the instrument panel and I feel like it has been just fine. Only once have I adjusted it in flight. The benefit is that it provides some resistance on the rudder which helps minimize movement when parked in light winds. I'm doing the same thing in my new RV10 but I'll also be installing a yaw damper, mostly because my daughter gets airsick quite often and I'm hoping that will make for a nicer ride for her.
 
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Rudder trim

The rv-10 requires a rudder trim tab. Any one got an ideas if the rv-14 will require a rudder trim tab? Or is this a wild card at this point?
vansairforce.net

See post #9

This is an internally actuated trim and works very well. A bit heavy for the purist but solid and responsive.
The spare flap motor is a bit overkill but I had it laying around.
A cheaper linear actuator can be purchased anywhere "amazon"
 
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1753726132822.jpegThis was done by a buddy, Randy Thorne. 1753726229222.jpeg
Ray Allen servo mounted under square cover on first pic.

Worked very well, loved having it.
 
Aerosport products made mine and I have been happy with it. Spring bias system attaches to rudder torque tubes under the panel.
www.aerosportproducts.com

Rudder Trim - Aerosport Products

Aerosport Products is offering a rudder trim for experimental aircraft. Fits RV-10, RV-7, and RV-9. We also have a version that works with the RV-10 Control Approach Rudder Pedals. The photos show the rudder trim mounted in an RV-10 with our standard asymmetrical carbon fiber instrument panel...
www.aerosportproducts.com www.aerosportproducts.com
 
I installed the Aerosport rudder trim, but also installed the Garmin Yaw servo. The rudder servo works well so no real need to adjust the Aerosport trim. Because the Aerosport system is a bias spring set up, it helps prevent the rudder from slapping around on the ramp in windy conditions when fueling etc so glad I installed it.
 
RVbySDI said:
Mike. Do you have any dimensions for your installation? I am installing a rudder trim using the Ray Allen servo and would like to work with an already existing dedign rather than design something.
Click to expand...
Sorry, no do not have any.

The cover plate and nutplate ring were Vans parts, as I recall.

As I mentioned, this was done by Randy Thorne, will try to get him to answer here------not sure if he is still on VAF?
 
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TYK said:
I've searched and not found quite what I'm looking for, mostly posts from several years ago.
I just don't like the looks of the hinge on the back of the rudder for electric trim and would like to do something that looks more "factory".
Has someone already invented this "wheel"?
I'm probably going with garmin, I wanted to like Dynon/Advanced but G seemed more intuitive to me. Does G autopilot/yaw damper solve this problem without an external adjustable tab?
Thanks,
Tim
Click to expand...
Tim,
I have a unique, easy rudder trim system I developed years ago you could look at. It uses a Mixture vernier cable, a small pulley riveted to the front tunnel and a spring. Google Don Orrick's Rudder Trim to see pics Tim Olson posted for it years ago with an overview of the install and how it operates. I have refined the system since the initial test system. 1500 hrs and no issues. Just a more straight forward approach.
Regards,
Don
N410JA
40010
 
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I used the Aerosprt spring bias system but converted it to electric. Works well.

That said, once the center point is found, I haven't used it much.
 
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At least two people here commented on not using rudder trim much.
I do not have such a system in my plane and find that the plane does not take much rudder input in cruise flight.
Do others find this to be true?
If so, perhaps before spending time and energy installing this feature, get some flying time in a 10 and decide if it is needed.
 
Mike S said:
View attachment 93648This was done by a buddy, Randy Thorne. View attachment 93649
Ray Allen servo mounted under square cover on first pic.

Worked very well, loved having it.
Click to expand...
I know several people that have done something similar. I have to wonder - with all the recent conversations about flutter due to ER tanks, adding mass aft of the rudder hinge line (the servo) and cutting the trailing edge of the rudder to install a less than rigid tab - it seems like this is an untested risk of reducing the flutter speed. I don’t know if the rudder was limiting on a 10 and with it being non-aerobatic busting Vne is less likely - but I would think an internal trim like the spring bias system Aerosport sells or similar would be much less risky.
 
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I almost never use the rudder except for takeoff and, sometimes, landing. Once in a while in cruise I'll see the ball a bit off center and tap the rudder pedals then it just stays centered.
 
N10KE said:
I know several people that have done something similar. I have to wonder - with all the recent conversations about flutter due to ER tanks, adding mass aft of the rudder hinge line (the servo) and cutting the trailing edge of the rudder to install a less than rigid tab - it seems like this is an untested risk of reducing the flutter speed. I don’t know if the rudder was limiting on a 10 and with it being non-aerobatic busting Vne is less likely - but I would think an internal trim like the spring bias system Aerosport sells or similar would be much less risky.
Click to expand...
That is a good thought, but after visiting with Ken at Osh, I’m far more worried about the “door flutter” that actually has taken down a few -10’s than the theoretical tail flutter from the extra gas being carried on many flying-10s.
I am liking the internal ideas.
Thanks again to all for once again giving your input on a subject that was “figured out years ago “!!
 
TYK said:
That is a good thought, but after visiting with Ken at Osh, I’m far more worried about the “door flutter” that actually has taken down a few -10’s than the theoretical tail flutter from the extra gas being carried on many flying-10s.
I am liking the internal ideas.
Thanks again to all for once again giving your input on a subject that was “figured out years ago “!!
Click to expand...
“Door flutter”?

Do you mean not properly latching the door?
 
RNB said:
At least two people here commented on not using rudder trim much.
I do not have such a system in my plane and find that the plane does not take much rudder input in cruise flight.
Do others find this to be true?
If so, perhaps before spending time and energy installing this feature, get some flying time in a 10 and decide if it is needed.
Click to expand...
I use a fixed trim tab, so ball is centered in cruise. I only require very light pressure to keep the ball centered in climb or descent. I do not regret skipping adjustable rudder trim.
 
I have the AeroSport spring-bias system--works great. I have it set up for cruise (ball centered, feet on the floor off the pedals) and never touch it. I simply add a little right rudder in a climb, and a bit of left for a fast descent.
 
N10KE said:
----- adding mass aft of the rudder hinge line (the servo) and cutting the trailing edge of the rudder to install a less than rigid tab - it seems like this is an untested risk of reducing the flutter speed.
Click to expand...

We added additional counterweight to offset the servo and tab mods. The first photo shows a couple rivets at the front of the cutout that are attaching a reinforcement piece and you can also see a wedge shaped piece of phoenlic bonded in the lower opening for the tab-----same for top.
 
I have a simple RV-12-style trim tab on my rudder set for cruise flight. It took a few flights to get the right size and bend to the trim tab. But once set, it's never touched again. I have it attached with some 3M hefty double sided tape. Simple & light.

I also have the Aerosport rudder trim. But I never touch it. I could remove it and I'd never notice.
 
At least two people here commented on not using rudder trim much.
I do not have such a system in my plane and find that the plane does not take much rudder input in cruise flight.
Click to expand...
Definitely not "needed" but some of us builders like to tinker just because we can.
You have four choices in order of simplicity:
1: No trim
2: Fixed trim tab set for cruise (Vans recommendation)
3: Some sort of spring biased manual or electric trim (my choice)
4: Electrically actuated trim tab
My guess is that #4 would be the most effective and crisp trim but also the most time consuming and complex to install.
 
N427EF said:
Definitely not "needed" but some of us builders like to tinker just because we can.
Click to expand...

Well said Ernst :D

Plus there was a coolie hat switch that was only half used, and I felt it needed to fulfill its purpose in life.........
 
kirkbauer said:
I almost never use the rudder except for takeoff and, sometimes, landing. Once in a while in cruise I'll see the ball a bit off center and tap the rudder pedals then it just stays centered.
Click to expand...
Pretty much the same, slight rudder pressure on take-off and let the yaw servo take care the balance of the time if it's needed. Same on the 14.
 
lr172 said:
I use a fixed trim tab, so ball is centered in cruise. I only require very light pressure to keep the ball centered in climb or descent. I do not regret skipping adjustable rudder trim.
Click to expand...
Same. I glassed in (once I tried and fitted-to-effect) a trailing edge wedge that keeps the ball centered in cruise. Rudder pressure only lightly needed in climb out. There's just not much adverse yaw in a 10; you can turn shallow with feet on the floor and hardly notice the slip. I have 3-axis AP with yaw damper and have used the feature exactly once to try it out. Expensive, non-removable aft ballast.
 
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Bill Boyd said:
I have 3-axis AP with yaw damper and have used the feature exactly once to try it out. Expensive, non-removable aft ballast.
Click to expand...
Glad I didn't go down that path. I don't think I have ever noticed tail wagging or any yaw instability in turbulence. A very well mannered bird.
 
lr172 said:
Glad I didn't go down that path. I don't think I have ever noticed tail wagging or any yaw instability in turbulence. A very well mannered bird.
Click to expand...
Have you ridden in the back during turbulence? Yaw damper makes a huge comfort difference. Necessary? No, but sure nice to have.
 
As I've stated I've got the AeroSport system. Normally I fly with my feet off the pedals in cruise. When penetrating clouds or in turbulence I keep my feet on the pedals and find that between that and the spring bias system, it does a fantastic job of yaw dampening without the weight and expense of a true yaw dampner/3-axis AP. YMMV....
 
Bill Boyd said:
Same. I glassed in (once I tried and fitted-to-effect) a trailing edge wedge that keeps the ball centered in cruise. Rudder pressure only lightly needed in climb out. There's just not much adverse yaw in a 10; you can turn shallow with feet on the floor and hardly notice the slip. I have 3-axis AP with yaw damper and have used the feature exactly once to try it out. Expensive, non-removable aft ballast.
Click to expand...
Just to clarify you have used the yaw damper only once? My wife can tell the difference within almost seconds if mine is not on, especially in Florida turbulence and she sits in the front.
 
dmattmul said:
Just to clarify you have used the yaw damper only once? My wife can tell the difference within almost seconds if mine is not on, especially in Florida turbulence and she sits in the front.
Click to expand...
Mine , too. While not "necessary", the yaw damper is definitely a preferred comfort option.
 
Estevanb said:
This is really smart! Would you share more pictures please?
Click to expand...
sure, here you go. It's a prototype, I'll have to see how it works..
 

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dmattmul said:
Just to clarify you have used the yaw damper only once? My wife can tell the difference within almost seconds if mine is not on, especially in Florida turbulence and she sits in the front.
Click to expand...
Interesting. My wife is sensitive to yaw too but no issues in our 10 with no YD and we fly in the same FL weather.
 
rocketman1988 said:
Mine , too. While not "necessary", the yaw damper is definitely a preferred comfort option.
Click to expand...
dmattmul said:
Pretty much the same, slight rudder pressure on take-off and let the yaw servo take care the balance of the time if it's needed. Same on the 14.
Click to expand...
My 10 doesn't have a trim tab, Same procedure as dmattmul

My wife certainly likes the Yaw Damper in the 10. She sits in the back often when we're taking guests.
 
RVbySDI said:
Mike. Do you have any dimensions for your installation? I am installing a rudder trim using the Ray Allen servo and would like to work with an already existing dedign rather than design something.
Click to expand...
It was made just like the elevator trim tab using Van's mount kit for the motor, I just waged the dimensions for the tab it's self. I do remember making ribs where the motor is in the rudder to stiffen the skin. Also small ribs for the tab ends and the rudder where I cut out the tab from the rudder.
Hope this helps. Randy
 
No yaw damper. Wife has flown both front and back, never complained about it. But, she is a trooper. I do note that both feet firmly on the pedals does smooth things out some.
 
Auburntsts said:
Interesting. My wife is sensitive to yaw too but no issues in our 10 with no YD and we fly in the same FL weather.
Click to expand...
Have her fly in a 10 with a YD, she might wish she was flying in another airframe. My wife is a trooper but when it comes to air sickness, she doesn't mind letting me know this is not for her. The pilot seems to anticipate the movement, the co-pilot wife not so much. We love/need/appreciate the significant other flying with us, might as well give her all the compassion we can and for less than 1k why not......
 
rocketman1988 said:
...and the yaw damper does that automatically...
Click to expand...
With more cost and complexity. No wrong answer here, just pointing out that IMO a YD is a nice to have at best. Mark 1 Mod 0 legs do a decent job on their own especially if you attuned to keeping the ball centered at all times in the first place.
 
It seems like the information I've heard trickle down from Garmin about their YD servo is that it's only supposed to respond to fix oscillation in yaw, not to fix steady state uncoordination. That said, it seems like it also tries to keep the airplane coordinated, as long as the flight control force to do so isn't "too much". Does anyone have any positive confirmation that they have seen the airplane go from slightly uncoordinated in steady state straight and level flight to coordinated when the Garmin YD is turned on?

I'm also in the same boat with my build. Based on current information, I'm hoping that a wedge + YD will result in no need for a spring/flap based trim system.
 
Yaw dampers and rudder trim are mutually exclusive.

Anyone were who flies "big" airplanes for a living will tell you they all have yaw dampers AND rudder trim.

You're never going to see a "big" plane that has a yaw damper but does not have rudder trim.

You will however see some sadistic designs that have rudder trim but no yaw damper (I'm looking at you, Jetstream 32). :LOL:
 
Auburntsts said:
With more cost and complexity. No wrong answer here, just pointing out that IMO a YD is a nice to have at best. Mark 1 Mod 0 legs do a decent job on their own especially if you attuned to keeping the ball centered at all times in the first place.
Click to expand...
Maybe your Mark 1 Mod 0 do a better job of mine in Florida turbulence, but they need to react very quickly.........I'm not that skilled it seems.
 
Dad's RV-10 said:
Yaw dampers and rudder trim are mutually exclusive.

Anyone were who flies "big" airplanes for a living will tell you they all have yaw dampers AND rudder trim.

You're never going to see a "big" plane that has a yaw damper but does not have rudder trim.

You will however see some sadistic designs that have rudder trim but no yaw damper (I'm looking at you, Jetstream 32). :LOL:
Click to expand...

I get that, though it also seems like it's the case that the Garmin/Dynon YD functionality will also try to coordinate, and that the flight control forces are so small on these light airplanes that it's OK for the two to be comingled (In software, it is of course two different computations adding to the yaw servo command). <--- This is basically what I've gleaned from reading about RV10 rudder trim/YD, though I've not seen it really confirmed from Garmin, at least other than people mentioning the airplane stays coordinated with YD turned on.

I know Garmin has a note that their YD isn't designed to trim, but I'm wondering if that's really a disclaimer for if the airplane requires "too much" control input to stay coordinated in steady state. They want people to be aware that the servo's authority to coordinate in steady state (ie, trim) is minimal/"non existent" even through it will actually try. And thus, if an airplane with sufficiently light control forces is already mostly trimmed, the YD servo is actually sufficient in lieu of a dedicated spring/tab based trim system.
 
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