I built my entire flying RV9A for about the same price as just the engine for my RV10 today.
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Vans Kit Sales Volume Since Massive Price Increases
- Thread starter simpsontl48
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you are not reach, you are wealthy.
With the price of Aluminum due to tariff, it is only going to go up.
Lasar Cut part recalls and primer issues with quickbuild kits didn't help. Poor business practices and the ability to complicate the parts/kits ordering to the point where you literally cannot give them your C/C number and order anything anymore may also be contributing factors. I just spoke to the Old Man yesterday and he couldn't even order parts last week and go pick them up the same day. We've built like 10+ RV's and Rockets and it was never this complicated. They need to go back to direct telephone lines to parts/kit orders and have a live person waiting. It needs to look like a Jerry Lewis telethon in the background........
And it's not all Van's fault. I deal with 100's of vendors daily and they have the same issues with trying to buy something from them. Very rigid ordering systems.
We are complaining about VANS prices not accounting for all other parts that is not controlled by VANS that have increased even more than VANS price. Take a look at the engine alone and how much that has increased compared to the airframe kit. From there go to the avionics, prop and everything else.
I would have said Diamond and Cirrus instead of Cessna and Piper.
I wasn't referring to inflationary increases that are occuring everywhere and wasn't even referring to vans, as I have no idea how much their prices have increased. I was referring to the private equity & brand consolidation firms.
I do not believe that what is happening in GA is inflationary, but just a good, old fashioned land grab. Some companies crank their prices up because they think they can. Sure enough, no hit to demand, so raise it some more. Rinse & repeat. They are just poking and testing to see what they can get away with. Lyc is a good example. They raised their prices every few months for a couple years and still have a line out the door. Other companies observe and say "Wow, didn't realize i could get away with that and follow suit. Wake up one day and everything in GA is double what it was noit too long ago. Given that this is not tied to cost increrases, or at least not fully, there is a good probability that prices will drop IF demand falls off. The problem now is that it is so wide spread, we can't just switch suppliers to get relief. It will require a downturn in the industry, which seems to be a given for GA. The cycles seem pretty regular and harsh.
What the PE folks, like hartzell, are doing is even beyond the industry level and we can address that by choosing competitive options.
Awesome. Did you see the twinkle of the airplanes in sun as they flew over? Looks like fireworks.
Hopefully MOSAIC will lead to a new class of aircraft build overseas, with cheap labor, that will compete with RV10's, etc, but be sold fully built as ELSA or something similar. One thing left out in the above posts for cost of build, is the storage for the kit in the years to decade plus it takes to build. I know builders that have been working on their planes for over ten years, dropping 500 a month on the hanger x 120 months...do the math. When all is added up, you're not flying for years, spending 1000's of hours tinkering and building. Your actual cost ends up being comparable to buying a certified airplane sometimes.
Lots of speculation and an inflamatory thread title but imho It's engines and avionics that are the problem, that's half the cost right there. Then build for resale, so another 20% for paint. The kits are perfectly reasonable and still on the cheaper side compared to what's out there. You can definitely build them cheaper going back to minimal avionics and garage paint.
We need Deltahawk and Rotax 916 firewall forward options, that would solve the Lycoming monopoly. I'm hoping that Vans is secretly developing a firewall forward for the Rotax 916 in the RV15. I volunteer to help them develop that on my build when the time comes.
The dollar doesn't buy what it used to so no point in comparing to planes built 10-20 years ago. I bet if you compared apples to apples and adjust for inflation/dollar it would be close to the same.
Oh, and experimental is the new GA, normal people can't pay $570,000 for a 172, so it's a 30+ year old airframe or experimental. This is why there is such high demand for cookie cutter 14's and 10's and frankly that's a good thing, most are safe, well-built and well-equiped aircraft.
We need Deltahawk and Rotax 916 firewall forward options, that would solve the Lycoming monopoly. I'm hoping that Vans is secretly developing a firewall forward for the Rotax 916 in the RV15. I volunteer to help them develop that on my build when the time comes.
The dollar doesn't buy what it used to so no point in comparing to planes built 10-20 years ago. I bet if you compared apples to apples and adjust for inflation/dollar it would be close to the same.
Oh, and experimental is the new GA, normal people can't pay $570,000 for a 172, so it's a 30+ year old airframe or experimental. This is why there is such high demand for cookie cutter 14's and 10's and frankly that's a good thing, most are safe, well-built and well-equiped aircraft.
Jjackh10
Well Known Member
Agree 100%. I'm capable of fabricating a FWF to mount anything. But Deltahawk, Rotax, ULE, even used Lyc's still price me out of building. I'd need china to clone a lycoming and sell them like the Kubota clone hobby tractors.
While we often talk about all the work to rivet/assemble all the airframe parts, I also consider all the (same or more?) work into R&D, manufacturing, inventory, warehousing, shipping, and all the peripheral overhead, customer support, payroll, accounting, etc, I personally think the prices Van's charges for kits are reasonable.
Sure, there are things that they do well and some others that I think need to be addressed. But as others have pointed out, the cost of the airframe portion(especially slow-build) are often eclipsed by the other costs associated with building.
Van's, thanks for all you do and please strive to action the feedback from the ongoing surveys and hopefully things will be as optimal as possible.
Sure, there are things that they do well and some others that I think need to be addressed. But as others have pointed out, the cost of the airframe portion(especially slow-build) are often eclipsed by the other costs associated with building.
Van's, thanks for all you do and please strive to action the feedback from the ongoing surveys and hopefully things will be as optimal as possible.
simpsontl48
Active Member
Beg to differ. There is nothing "inflammatory" about the title. It is a subject, not an accusation.
It had always been the sport of kings, now satisfying legislated requirements break you as well.
We agree to disagree.
Anyone living in the here and now the past 5-years has seen much higher than average inflation. Van's Aircraft price increases have NOT been "massive". (The word in the title that is misleading and inflammatory.) Van's Aircraft has been too low priced for too long and prices adjusted up to what is necessary.
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"Massive" is just an opinion and pure spectulation as to their sales volume, so yea, inflamatory.
simpsontl48
Active Member
Look at the prices pre CH 11 and now, then tell me the prices are not close to massive. The price increases are well ABOVE the inflation increases. Part of this thread was started to discuss the future viability of the mothership with the very high price increases of their kits which has a very real effect of the affordability, especially accounting for the MASSIVE price increases in engine prices. We all love Vans. I certainly do. We all want them to succeed for the long term. Their kit prices increases are a worthy topic of discussion for the future of the company.
RV7Guy
Well Known Member
As somebody noted, it is the lack of availability and cost of Lycomings that is keeping people from building. The fact is most of the current builders aren't young people. How much time are you really willing to wait on an engine. GA flyers in the US are graying out. More and more planes will be hitting the market and it will make more sense to buy rather than build. The RV15 should be a great plane but if you are going to have to wait 5 plus years for a 390 is it worth it? And, if the 15 proves popular, that time fuse will get longer. That, in my opinion, is killing sales.
I think the price increase was more than reasonable. It wasn't just an inflation adjustment, it was a cost of goods and services plus inflation adjustment. No amount of debating our opinions will change that. The kit prices will (and should) only go up from here, anything else is a disservice to them and ultimately customers. There are lesser kits out there that cost twice as much.
Well said, sir. I agree. Things cost money, no matter if in aviation, automotive, house remodeling, etc. So this is no different. I work hard for my money and like using it to support a company I like and a hobby I love. To that end, I will keep supporting them and buying stuff, and hope they keep making kits and parts. Only thing that would be off putting is if the company starts to show they are making excellent profits and spending gobs of money on marketing, like a lot of companies end up doing. As a small business owner, I just hope that Van's doesn't get bought by private equity. Then all bets are off with regards to transparency and the "type" of company that I like supporting. Stay even keeled, everyone.
simpsontl48
Active Member
I only partly agree with your assessment. You seem to miss the very high cost of Vans entering into Chapter 11, plus being required to partly reimburse those who wanted a refund for the kits they had on order. These are temporary expenses, not long term. Without these high costs, Vans would not have needed to raise prices nearly as much. This is why I believe that Vans will at some time start lowing their kit prices, probably via "Special Sales", to generate new interest. They just have to get past all the extra temporary costs of Ch 11 and reimbursements of those who just wanted out.
You're speculating, it's an empty debate. No reason for Vans to lower prices, plenty of reasons to raise prices.
It's far better for everybody for Vans to make high margin on these kits they can put into customer service, improving and revising kits, new projects like the RV15, and building a warchest for the next big thing.
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simpsontl48
Active Member
I stand by my word. I have experience in marketing. What I have said will happen. The only issue is how soon. Prediction: in the next 1-3 years. Separately, when the new RV 15 kits come on line, it will be very popular and of great benefit to Vans and those who wish to build them.
I tend to believe that Van's has doubled down on its profit margin for the short term. If they were at an average 30% (hypothetical) margin prior to the COVID related inflation, I believe they needed to increase margin above and beyond the cost increases they incurred in order to generate short/medium term cash to dig out of bankruptcy. That's part of the increase on ancillary items (nuts, bolts, etc. AND the increase on engines and prop's). Once they are over the bankruptcy hump, I believe we'll see annual prices increase less than inflation for a few years to bring prices back to something that will generate more volume.
In the meantime, I believe they have probably sacrificed kit starts in the short term to generate incremental profits from builders who are in a sunk cost situation and could either walk away or pony up extra $$ to complete a project. One day, those "too far in to back out" builders will finish their aircraft and Van's will need new kit starts to carry the business forward.
In the meantime, I believe they have probably sacrificed kit starts in the short term to generate incremental profits from builders who are in a sunk cost situation and could either walk away or pony up extra $$ to complete a project. One day, those "too far in to back out" builders will finish their aircraft and Van's will need new kit starts to carry the business forward.
There are only so many companies that make constant speed props for a Lycoming IO-360 in the world. Consolidation reduces options - reduces competition. Creates oligopolistic pricing.
I am certainly calling them out for it. The products I'm concerned about are not simple, high-volume, or conducive to market disruption.
Alternators are a dime a dozen. Every car made in the last 70 years has one. E-AB folks can certainly get a little adventurous with alternators, and likely starters, and circumvent this cornering of the market. Alternators have - and will always have - some good DIY options. What about hydraulic constant-speed props? How about high-displacement, lightweight, air-cooled direct-drive dual-spark engines? Magnetos? You can't buy those things at Autozone.
It's not like insulin. It won't kill us. But the entrenchment is similar and the barriers to entry are large enough. I'm not going to reinvent my life to become an experimental prop engineer. The companies who did that are getting acquired by cutthroat business jerks with deep pockets and a mission to bleed us dry.
They wont have it cornered for long because somebody will undersell them and make millions doing it - the only time this does not work if there are outside factors at play ( like for instance heavy government regulations ) which artificially raise the price of market entry to the point where you end up with effective ( if often unintended ) permanent monopolies.
I think this take dramatically hand-waves away the R&D effort involved. There's also the factor of "tried and true" reliability. Tens or hundreds of thousands of operating hours worth of proven product doesn't happen overnight.
The CS props were very expensive before all of this and don't think they have risen near what the other stuff has, though not sure. Sure, they bought WW, but WW were already more expensive than hartzel. You DO have an option. Buy a FP prop for a small fraction. I fly an FP on my 6 and I fly just as fast as the CS guys, maybe a knot or two faster. I got my catto for $1000. A CS was a good $4-5K used. No way I was going to spend that kind of money just to get thrown back into my seat on take off or slow down faster in the pattern. There is a small fuel savings by loading at lower RPMs, but the payback is probably 1-2000 hours or more. They really don't do much more than that for the average flyer. In most cases, there is usually a choice, though may not be perfect. I almost considered a catto for my 10, but the cost difference wasn't worth it and it was brand new and unproven.
Some of what we see in the new prices is a kicker to pay back all the money lost when they were selling kits below market for a couple years and various other losses from bad mgmt decisions and I am sure their is a healthy debt servicng cost now. I agree it is a tough pill to swallow, but they are pretty much priced where they need to be and seem competitve with the market in general. Gone are the days when vans was total performance on a low budget. Sadly never going back to that.
String has totally gone off the rails at this point. Doug/moderators….please pull the plug as this thread has mutated badly…
Let's pump the brakes on this thread for now. Everyone who wanted to vent got to. If you'd like to complain re: this feel free to DM me.
v/r,dr
v/r,dr
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