Vans Kit Sales Volume Since Massive Price Increases

[simpsontl48]

Thought I would speculate: I am guessing that Vans kit sale volume is way down.

Question: will they finally see the writing on the wall and get their prices down. Many would-be builders need the help of lower prices. Time will tell. I am guessing they will need to get theses prices down for long term survival. Otherwise, only the rich will be building, especially taking into account the cost of engines, props, avionics, etc.

Comments welcome.

 

[MED]

Thought I would speculate: I am guessing that Vans kit sale volume is way down.

Question: will they finally see the writing on the wall and get their prices down. Many would-be builders need the help of lower prices. Time will tell. I am guessing they will need to get theses prices down for long term survival. Otherwise, only the rich will be building, especially taking into account the cost of engines, props, avionics, etc.

Comments welcome.

I believe keeping their prices unrealistically low is what got them into the bankruptcy situation, so I don’t think reducing prices now is likely to happen. As you said, the cost of everything else has also increased. I don’t see an easy solution.

 

[71459]

Thought I would speculate: I am guessing that Vans kit sale volume is way down.

Question: will they finally see the writing on the wall and get their prices down. Many would-be builders need the help of lower prices. Time will tell. I am guessing they will need to get theses prices down for long term survival. Otherwise, only the rich will be building, especially taking into account the cost of engines, props, avionics, etc.

Comments welcome.

It's only the wealthy that have been involved for many years now. Van's original idea was targeted at a very different demographic, but like so may others, this hobby can now only be afforded by the rich. It says something about our society.. not a bright future.

 

[RV6_flyer]

Forty years ago when I got involved with them, Van's Aircraft was operating on a very small profit margin. That margin was so thin that brought on financial problems when a slew of orders and high inflation hit.

It is a FREE Market system so IF someone can make parts for less, they would.

I do not see prices coming down. The backlog may not be as large as it was a year ago but there is still a backlog so the demand for parts at the prices they are sold at is justified.

 

[Walt]

I believe keeping their prices unrealistically low is what got them into the bankruptcy situation, so I don’t think reducing prices now is likely to happen. As you said, the cost of everything else has also increased. I don’t see an easy solution.

Huge corrosion problems followed by the disastrous laser cut parts cracking issues didn’t help…

 

[Lucmac]

Thought I would speculate: I am guessing that Vans kit sale volume is way down.

Question: will they finally see the writing on the wall and get their prices down. Many would-be builders need the help of lower prices. Time will tell. I am guessing they will need to get theses prices down for long term survival. Otherwise, only the rich will be building, especially taking into account the cost of engines, props, avionics, etc.

Comments welcome.

When I bought my RV-8 Kit decades ago, one of the 'marketing' statements was that if you bought a used engine, FP prop and used builders tools and avionics (blue mountain avionics, GRT, Dynon were all just fledgling companies at the time and 6 packs were still the norm), you should be able to build a VFR plane for the same ballpark price as a SUV car and get about the same cross country MPG. I haven't priced SUVs (used or new) in decades but it would be interesting if that transportation cost comparison still holds roughly true or has aviation truly gone up a lot more than the price of SUVs in the last 30 to 35 years since I first heard that marketing pitch from Van's.

 

[543TB]

It isn't Vans' responsibility to make flying "cheap". Their insane run-up in kit orders prior to the bankruptcy was due to people staying at home/working from home during the pandemic who thought "gee, I finally have time to build an airplane in my garage", only to find out that was a shorter term situation than they were expecting. There are an awful lot of unfinished sections hitting the market from those who found out it takes a lot more time and effort than they have.

A decent 65 year old fabric covered airplane with no electrical system and limited performance will set you back $25K. A brand new Cirrus, which some people seem to expect the RV-10 to compete with or it isn't worth their second look, is approaching seven digits left of the decimal point. The current kit prices are high compared to when we got into this 13 years ago, but they aren't out of line with the rest of the aviation arena. With commodity prices going up (not political, just the realities of the current situation), I expect Vans will only increase prices as the margins get squeezed once again.

 

[bertschb]

It's only the wealthy that have been involved for many years now. Van's original idea was targeted at a very different demographic, but like so may others, this hobby can now only be afforded by the rich.

I guess I'm rich and didn't even know it!

 

[Full Throttle]

I guess I'm rich and didn't even know it!

My definition of rich is not owing any money, and having what I want and need.

 

[rocketman1988]

I guess I'm rich and didn't even know it!

Yep, I have my first wife of 36 years, two successful children, an a new grandchild…I am definitely rich!

 

[MED]

When I bought my RV-8 Kit decades ago, one of the 'marketing' statements was that if you bought a used engine, FP prop and used builders tools and avionics (blue mountain avionics, GRT, Dynon were all just fledgling companies at the time and 6 packs were still the norm), you should be able to build a VFR plane for the same ballpark price as a SUV car and get about the same cross country MPG. I haven't priced SUVs (used or new) in decades but it would be interesting if that transportation cost comparison still holds roughly true or has aviation truly gone up a lot more than the price of SUVs in the last 30 to 35 years since I first heard that marketing pitch from Van's.

A new Chevrolet Suburban was $16645 in 1990. They “start at” $62000 now.

 

[bertschb]

Thought I would speculate: I am guessing that Vans kit sale volume is way down.

Question: will they finally see the writing on the wall and get their prices down.

My speculation: Kit sales are slightly down from pre-Covid levels and off sharply from the peak Covid years. Will they lower prices? Not likely. In fact, I would expect price increases next year. I think It's been almost two years now since they raised kit prices.

 

[cvairwerks]

I think that the only way they will ever have a significant decrease in kit prices, is if they return to the old style kit that wasn't an erector set type, or sell complete plans sets. Too many people these days seem to want the erector set type, but those that can't afford them, are pretty much shut out of the building process. If they were to produce a kit that had only critical items already made or prepared, it would probably sell like crazy.

We've got to do something overall in the GA world, as it's now getting to the point that if you don't make really significant $'s, then you probably can't afford to fly.

 

[simpsontl48]

I believe keeping their prices unrealistically low is what got them into the bankruptcy situation, so I don’t think reducing prices now is likely to happen. As you said, the cost of everything else has also increased. I don’t see an easy solution.

I disagree. The problem that got them in trouble...more than once, was the lack of good quality control and oversight of the vendors. One instance, improper corrosion chemicals on kits, and more recently laser cut parts which sent them into CH 11. They have raised the it prices for temporary survival, but the high prices will hurt them in the long run.

 

[simpsontl48]

My speculation: Kit sales are slightly down from pre-Covid levels and off sharply from the peak Covid years. Will they lower prices? Not likely. In fact, I would expect price increases next year. I think It's been almost two years now since they raised kit prices.

My guess. and it is only speculation, is that at some point within the next 1-3 years, you will see "special sales" intended to get more kits sold. Time will tell.

 

[Ben Ellis]

I think that the only way they will ever have a significant decrease in kit prices, is if they return to the old style kit that wasn't an erector set type, or sell complete plans sets. Too many people these days seem to want the erector set type, but those that can't afford them, are pretty much shut out of the building process. If they were to produce a kit that had only critical items already made or prepared, it would probably sell like crazy.

You can still get the -4 and -3 in the same way it has been produced for decades, but the prices have still gone up significantly. Not to mention that the engine probably costs more than all the kit parts and that's where the real cost is along with all the other parts you need.

In terms of kits that are quicker to put together, the only real advancement in the last 20 years at Van's seems to be holes that are final sized already. I've always wondered if that costs anymore than pre-punching the holes to smaller sizes like the earlier pre-punched kits. I can't imagine that it would, I would think it's just a matter of the punch size and having a machine that can do it, which we know Van's has.

My guess on why Van's prices have outpaced inflation is because they went from being a kit manufacturer to also being an airplane manufacturer and a quick build components manufacturer. There is a lot of overhead in those businesses and that overhead gets spread to pricing for all of the company's products, including basic kits. If all Van's wanted to do was manufacture traditional kits, I would think they just need a small team and a couple pieces of equipment. It would be much easier to control costs, but the profit potential would not be as great as it is under the current business plan.

 

[RV8JD]

Another pointless, speculative thread on the cost of flying, homebuilding and Van’s prices.

 

[rockyfatcat]

A new Chevrolet Suburban was $16645 in 1990. They “start at” $62000 now.

In 1990 an ounce of gold was $384. Today’s spot price is $3,367.

This is your inflation. Printing money monetizes the debt and dilutes the value of every other dollar out there.

 

[Paul Thomas]

Incompetency is what go them in trouble and it didn't take a genius to see it coming.

A company can't sell a product when it didn't know when it will start producing it or at what cost yet that's exactly what they were doing in an inflationary environment. I had a chat with the CFO ~18 month prior to the bankruptcy and told him exactly what would happen. They were operating without a safety net, counting on future sales to run the business. The deposits were used up immediately to fund operations... any downturn in the economy that lead to kit cancellation would have been enough to choke the business because they wouldn't have had the cash on hand for refunds.

I was shocked when I read that the company didn't know they were losing money on each kit. I'm not sure I believe it but it sure supports my argument of incompetency. The whole C-suite should have been fired immediately and shame on Van's for his lack of oversight (although one can easily argue he's part of the problem, knew or should have known it was coming, and smartly set things up in case of a bk).

The best thing they have going for them is that so many builders are too far into the project to quit. That can give them time to rebuild trust but I seem to read about is "sorry". It's a small company, turning it around and getting core processes down shouldn't be that complex but the focus still seems elsewhere. Time was spent on quick built flaps and other nonsense first instead of getting the basic down. It infuriates me to see small business with a great product fail over bad management; Van's should be a cash cow.

 

[Lucmac]

A new Chevrolet Suburban was $16645 in 1990. They “start at” $62000 now.

I’ve been trying to regurgitate some old brain cells and i kinda remember 35 to 40 $K was the low end price point Van’s had to be targeting back then. All the slow build rv-8 airframe kits combined were in the 12$K range.

 

[DeltaRomeo]

Rules. Civil. Check the bashing, please.

Please.

I really would rather not lock it. Harshing my job3 mellow, man.

Please

 

[rocketman1988]

Incompetency is what go them in trouble and it didn't take a genius to see it coming.

A company can't sell a product when it didn't know when it will start producing it or at what cost yet that's exactly what they were doing in an inflationary environment. I had a chat with the CFO ~18 month prior to the bankruptcy and told him exactly what would happen. They were operating without a safety net, counting on future sales to run the business. The deposits were used up immediately to fund operations... any downturn in the economy that lead to kit cancellation would have been enough to choke the business because they wouldn't have had the cash on hand for refunds.

I was shocked when I read that the company didn't know they were losing money on each kit. I'm not sure I believe it but it sure supports my argument of incompetency. The whole C-suite should have been fired immediately and shame on Van's for his lack of oversight (although one can easily argue he's part of the problem, knew or should have known it was coming, and smartly set things up in case of a bk).

The best thing they have going for them is that so many builders are too far into the project to quit. That can give them time to rebuild trust but I seem to read about is "sorry". It's a small company, turning it around and getting core processes down shouldn't be that complex but the focus still seems elsewhere. Time was spent on quick built flaps and other nonsense first instead of getting the basic down. It infuriates me to see small business with a great product fail over bad management; Van's should be a cash cow.

Since you seem to know what Van’s needs, maybe they are hiring…

 

[uk_figs]

Kinda sad to read some of the comments in this thread because unless you have actually started and run and grown a small business and dealt with the myriad of challenges, it really is not good form to criticize from the sidelines. Many of the suggestions for better processes, systems, visibility, vendor management, quality control etc etc etc take time, personnel bandwidth, and money, all of which can be in short supply when the team is wearing multiple hats. Vans also got the perfect storm of issues to deal with, and there are much much bigger aerospace companies that are still trying to dig themselves out of similar vendor quality, market forecasting, customer demand, and competitive issues.
If you look at the bit that Vans controls/contributes it is probably only 25-30% of the finished product today which is probably a similar ratio to when I built my -7 in 2005-2008 so you need to go take a whack at Textron, Garmin, Rotax et al if you want to complain about inflation, supply chain, investments, market forecasting, and you can still slow build a 7 or 9 without the latest and greatest gear for a reasonable price (how about $80k+ for a Jeep Wrangler!!!) and have a great flying airplane.
I for one am still a Van's fan.
YMMV
Figs

 

[N427EF]

There are many many aircraft for sale below $50'000 or less than the cost of an average new truck like a F150.
Let's face it, if you cannot afford the premium Ferrari of an airplane, namely an RV, you can choose from a myriad of
other offerings. Consider a plans built aircraft and source the parts or choose one of the many spam cans that can be had for much less than
$50'000, like an older Cessna, a Stinson-108 or something of that sort.
Whining about the cost of a "Ferrari" and beating up the company who is selling them simply won't bring the price of a sporty
Testarossa down to an affordable level. FWIW, I don't like it either but one cannot ignore new realities.
Reminds me a little bit of Willy Wonka's Chocolate factory and Veruca's demands: "I want another Pony and I want it now!"
Look around and find something you can afford, its out there.

 

[kenandsteph14]

I'd rather have Vans charge what they need to stay in business making kits and supplying parts. Sure, none of us want to overpay, but at the same time, I want to support them in continuing to make a good- and better product.
I'm just hoping all my investing in aluminum is going to pay dividends later.
I've been told that, 'the sky's the limit' on the ROI!

 

[[email protected]]

Yep, I have my first wife of 36 years, two successful children, an a new grandchild…I am definitely rich!

Ah schucks I've been married for 52 years 3 successful kids and 4 grand children. Got ya beat
BUT Van's kit prices will never come down one cent as far as I figure.
Go look at what's happened in just about every other market.
But my luck varies. I bought my first RV kit in 1991 FIXIT

 

[BillL]

Incompetency is what go them in trouble and it didn't take a genius to see it coming.

<sic> Van's should be a cash cow.

This is my assessment. Poor management, not keeping up with $, and management of suppliers. It was ok when it was smaller and one guy oversaw the whole operation, but drawing control tracking and inbound pieces were typically built by contentious small shops. I worked for a manufacturing company the top in their field and fortune 100. It took a lot of work to do all of these things and still had these very issues. Except making money. Large margins cover the short term mistakes.

For the ones who have been around for 20-30 yrs, know the saga of the failing steps for 7 and 10's. I took photos and noted the company planes had repaired them. The vendor even started repairing them. Then by chance, asked Vans himself. Then the light bulb went off and the patch became a new step. The laser parts were just another example. Design, analysis, testing, then abuse testing, and finally fixing anything that won't pass the abuse tests is the purvue of higher class design/manufacturing companies. With the right production volume, it avoids more cost than it absorbs. Now, if they refine the operations, and don't get greedy, we will resume cost-effective and excellent aircraft kits. Fingers crossed. We are far more vulnerable to engines than airframes.

Sorry for sounding so crabby about Vans, they are great people for working with and talking to, with a love of airplanes. Just missed a few business basics. I feel sure they will be around for while, and when fully recovered (along with many, many other companies), will be back in the saddle. I think it can be minimized but describing the situation as "growing pains". Most companies go through that, some fail. Vans hasn't.

 

[rocketman1988]

Ah schucks I've been married for 52 years 3 successful kids and 4 grand children. Got ya beat
BUT Van's kit prices will never come down one cent as far as I figure.
Go look at what's happened in just about every other market.
But my luck varies. I bought my first RV kit in 1991 FIXIT

Nice.

The point of the post was that there are more important things than money...I'm guessing you know that!

 

[BobTurner]

Times have changed. OSH award winners now often sport $30K, even $40K, professional paint jobs. This is home building? Most all aircraft companies, engine companies, avionics companies, normally certified or EAB, have found that there is more profit in selling a small number of airplanes, parts, avionics, etc, to a small number of well-off people, than there is selling lots of low profit parts to the masses. This is how our capitalist but regulated economy works. Did no one else read the blurb from the investment group that recently took control of Hartzell? They stated that their goal was to find companies with a ‘locked in’ market (e.g., some aircraft are certified with Hartzell, and STCs are difficult/expensive), and then raise the prices to maximize their profit.

 

[RV6_flyer]

I'd rather have Vans charge what they need to stay in business making kits and supplying parts. Sure, none of us want to overpay, but at the same time, I want to support them in continuing to make a good- and better product.
I'm just hoping all my investing in aluminum is going to pay dividends later.
I've been told that, 'the sky's the limit' on the ROI!

It took 8.5-years to build my RV-6 and it first flew in September 1997. I started with a budget of $35K to build the airplane. IF you add 4% inflation every year to the budget, I came in just over budget at $50,000. The people that I have met, the places I have been, the life experiences that I have had, have been worth five times or more than what I have spend on the initial investment and operating expenses. The experience of building, flying an airplane that I have built north of the Arctic Circle, landing it in 49-states, flying it to the Bahamas, and taking 20+ trips across the US before 2008 is actually priceless. It is also priceless to have fly an airplane that I built in large formations over Oshkosh several times and in a 49-ship formation over Arrowhead stadium.

Yes there were lots of sacrifices along the way. Started building during the first divorce. After the divorce, I had a negative net worth but I had a few airplane parts and a dream to have an airplane. I actually rented a room, put in a lot of time doing great work for my employer, and spent my free time building airplane parts. I actually got married and divorced again. I never lost sight of eventually building and flying my own airplane. September 1997 finally came, I had my Special Airworthiness Certificate, made first flight, and started on the priceless journey of aircraft ownership in an airplane that I had built. The airplane, my RV-6, was named: "My Sanity". It got me thought two divorces. Instead of chasing wild women and drinking, I concentrated on accelerating at my job, and building an airplane. When asked how much the airplane cost me, my answer was: Two wifes, one girlfriend, two houses, three rental property, and a car but it was worth it.

After I stopped building and was flying my airplane, I finally got around to not renting a room to sleep at when not working and actually purchased a condo near work. A little over a decade later, I retired, sold condo, and moved out of a high cost of living area. Eventually, I figured out that I had more retirement money coming in than what I had when I was working. I took out a loan and purchased a house on an airpark. Seven years later, the house is paid for and I am living with my airplane on an airpark able to fly whenever I want.

I focused on the the end result of what I wanted. I put a lot of time and effort in at work to get ahead and provide a good value for my employer so that I could get a good paycheck. At times, it felt like I was never going to get ahead but I knew that I was going to fly an airplane that I had built.

So much for my RV story.

 

[n82rb]

bottom line is vans kits were way under priced for years, some of us benefited from that, those days are over. look at the market.

bearhawk QB kit 76k
sonex QB kit 46.8K
Sling 2 QB kit 85K
RV-8 QB kit 71K

they are where they need to be in the market with a price that they need to make a profit.

 

[terrye]

Kind of reminds me of the answer to the question: "How much money does it cost to go automobile racing?". Answer: "All of it!". If you can afford the $30K paint job on your RV-10, well, you'll pay that to get it. If you don't, there are always options (bare metal like Vlad, or DIY paint job). Started my RV-9A in 2004 when I got downsized from my full time job. Bought the empennage kit to see if I liked building. Kept buying the kits and parts through four more part time jobs. Took a loan for the engine and paid it off in 3 years. Currently working firewall forward. If I don't finish it soon, I'll have to buy new avionics. Just kidding, got a 3 screen Garmin G3X and GTN650Xi which should be good for quite a while. Yes, it's been 20 years, but I'm glad to see some airplanes take longer. What I wanted was a plane that was better in every way than my Cessna 150. And it will be. If I was perfectly happy with my Cessna 150 I would never have started my RV. So if you really want an RV, the old saying "where there's a will there's a way" still applies.

 

[skirting_virga]

If you look at the bit that Vans controls/contributes it is probably only 25-30% of the finished product today which is probably a similar ratio to when I built my -7 in 2005-2008 so you need to go take a whack at Textron, Garmin, Rotax et al if you want to complain about inflation

100% Engines, primarily, are killing GA. You can skip the glass panel, VFR. The engine now costs what the whole plane should cost.

This is how our capitalist but regulated economy works. Did no one else read the blurb from the investment group that recently took control of Hartzell? They stated that their goal was to find companies with a ‘locked in’ market (e.g., some aircraft are certified with Hartzell, and STCs are difficult/expensive), and then raise the prices to maximize their profit.

Nailed it.

The American dream is selling out. The business model is "what the market will bear". The small folks are powerless fodder for founders selling out to the investor-types, whose ideology is profit-taking.

 

[simpsontl48]

I am going to put my marker down. Remember my name, Terry Simpson, for infamy purposes. For fun, I will make a $100 bet...as that is all I can afford to lose. At some time between 1-3 years, Vans will start putting kits on "special" sale at lower prices. They will need to do so to get kit sales up to an optimal level for highest profitability. They had to get kit prices up more recently to cover the high costs of going through Ch 11, plus pay off some people who wanted their money back. All that period will pass in 1-2 years. They will then need go do a comprehensive marketing assessment to adjust prices to a more optimal sales level.
To those who said they were not making a profit earlier, I disagree. The reason: they are a 50 year old company. If they were not making an adequate profit, they would have folded decades ago.
Part of Vans comments regarding not pricing their kits higher is that they were seeing prices of their FINISHED aircraft go much higher. In their minds, they should have been able to get some of that higher level payout. The problem is that only about a third of their kits end up being built. All their kits that ended up in the uncompleted dust bin are nearly worthless. compared to completed projects, especially the 14s and 10s. What makes these aircraft worth a lot of money is the time and "free" labor that people put into them to get them completed. Mark my words regarding "special" sales coming up. in the next 1-3 years...all fun. Standing by for my beatings...no water boarding please.

 

[simpsontl48]

100% Engines, primarily, are killing GA. You can skip the glass panel, VFR. The engine now costs what the whole plane should cost.


Nailed it.

The American dream is selling out. The business model is "what the market will bear". The small folks are powerless fodder for founders selling out to the investor-types, whose ideology is profit-taking.

I believe Vans fully understands that the engine cost is killing GA. The question they may be discussing in house is....whether it will kill Vans. Hopefully not. That is why they must get the kit costs at an optimal level. If wannabe builders take into account the engine cost they will face at the end of the build, many will decide not to start one at all....a death knell.

 

[jrs14855]

Times have changed. OSH award winners now often sport $30K, even $40K, professional paint jobs. This is home building? Most all aircraft companies, engine companies, avionics companies, normally certified or EAB, have found that there is more profit in selling a small number of airplanes, parts, avionics, etc, to a small number of well-off people, than there is selling lots of low profit parts to the masses. This is how our capitalist but regulated economy works. Did no one else read the blurb from the investment group that recently took control of Hartzell? They stated that their goal was to find companies with a ‘locked in’ market (e.g., some aircraft are certified with Hartzell, and STCs are difficult/expensive), and then raise the prices to maximize their profit.

there are still ,occasional OSH Grand Champions in the plans built category that are every bit as nice as the kit builts, too many of which involved more check writing than building.

 

[12vaitor]

Interesting that the upcoming RV-15 kit is not being recognized as a demand signal. I am sure the volume of initial orders will keep Van's manufacturing equipment utilization high for at least a few years. Hopefully, they will not take on another capacity expansion to meet short term demand and accept longer lead times to maintain a stable business base. I think the airframe kit prices (standard build) are quite reasonable.

 

[warmi]

100% Engines, primarily, are killing GA. You can skip the glass panel, VFR. The engine now costs what the whole plane should cost.


Nailed it.

The American dream is selling out. The business model is "what the market will bear". The small folks are powerless fodder for founders selling out to the investor-types, whose ideology is profit-taking.

Profit taking is very good and essential … without it you get a service quality of your local DMV office and risk going under ( Vans example )

 

[wirejock]

I am going to put my marker down. Remember my name, Terry Simpson, for infamy purposes. For fun, I will make a $100 bet...as that is all I can afford to lose. At some time between 1-3 years, Vans will start putting kits on "special" sale at lower prices. They will need to do so to get kit sales up to an optimal level for highest profitability. They had to get kit prices up more recently to cover the high costs of going through Ch 11, plus pay off some people who wanted their money back. All that period will pass in 1-2 years. They will then need go do a comprehensive marketing assessment to adjust prices to a more optimal sales level.
To those who said they were not making a profit earlier, I disagree. The reason: they are a 50 year old company. If they were not making an adequate profit, they would have folded decades ago.
Part of Vans comments regarding not pricing their kits higher is that they were seeing prices of their FINISHED aircraft go much higher. In their minds, they should have been able to get some of that higher level payout. The problem is that only about a third of their kits end up being built. All their kits that ended up in the uncompleted dust bin are nearly worthless. compared to completed projects, especially the 14s and 10s. What makes these aircraft worth a lot of money is the time and "free" labor that people put into them to get them completed. Mark my words regarding "special" sales coming up. in the next 1-3 years...all fun. Standing by for my beatings...no water boarding please.

Agree. No betting or water boarding here. I need the money to fly.

I think there's a "CTJ" coming for the entire industry. Maybe it's a new kit. Maybe it's a new engine. Dunno. I just don't see the current prices on any of it sustainable.
I'm probably wrong. Cessna and Piper seem to be selling. Somebody's got money.

 

[johntwilcox]

I think that the only way they will ever have a significant decrease in kit prices, is if they return to the old style kit that wasn't an erector set type, or sell complete plans sets. Too many people these days seem to want the erector set type, but those that can't afford them, are pretty much shut out of the building process. If they were to produce a kit that had only critical items already made or prepared, it would probably sell like crazy.

We've got to do something overall in the GA world, as it's now getting to the point that if you don't make really significant $'s, then you probably can't afford to fly.

barnstormers has 5 J3 cubs under 50k.

Today’s RV7 with a FI engine, Electric Trim, Glass Panels, Auto Pilot , composite prop , Custom Paint, is more expensive, but it’s much more capable and equipped than 20 years ago.

And the Kit price has become less of the total cost over time, not more when factoring in engine, avionics, interiors, lighting. Etc.

If you plot price vs capabilities, today’s aircraft are cheaper than ever, but that does mean prices lass than ever. GA can still be had for “old time” dollars , and just because they they have less than 100hr, limited or no electrical system, they still have great fun factor ( and can be flown for less than $40 an hour op cost.

 

[Richard Connell]

Cessna and Piper seem to be selling. Somebody's got money.

Cirrus also set consecutive year on year sales records for the last 2 calendar years.
There were 1000 new American millionaires minted every single day last year.
So yeah somebody’s got money alright.
I struggle to see pricing coming back across the industry while demand is so strong. It would need decent economic slowdown - which nobody wants I imagine.

 

[MWH265]

Just before the bankruptcy and the last thing I bought were new hinge pins for the cowling. They were $13 and change each. After the bankruptcy, out of curiosity I looked, they were $46 bucks. Today they are $52.63. I know small items have the most markup, but for something like that, that price increase is insane. I sold my Skyhawk and bought a Vans partially because the "non certified" parts were reasonable. It made aviation "affordable". In my opinion the maintenance items should have remained reasonable. I am still a fan of Vans and always will be.

 

[JeremyL]

Honestly I think that the kit price increase is just a little inflated from where they “should” be, but not too unreasonable for today’s market. The bigger issue is the engine price problem, they increased well over 100% in as little as 3 years progressively. In my opinion, the biggest issue is the complete lack of our pay to keep up with all these increases. I think since 2020, my pay has increased maybe 5% at best, I’d assume most of you are feeling the same squeeze from just normal everyday living prices without adequate pay to compensate for all the increases, at least in the more “blue collar” realm, which are arguably the folks that bought up all those kits in the 90`s-2018`s helping to propel Vans to the top. I don’t hate Vans for increasing prices, I think it had to happen, but the lack of salary increases from companies and municipalities is really what is choking out our dreams. Just my opinion

 

[No_0ne]

Most all aircraft companies, engine companies, avionics companies, normally certified or EAB, have found that there is more profit in selling a small number of airplanes, parts, avionics, etc, to a small number of well-off people, than there is selling lots of low profit parts to the masses.

Except I would argue that there is no facet in aviation that ever qualifies as "selling lots of low profit parts to the masses". Aviation is at best a niche market, and always has been. Consider engines, which are certainly one of the primary drivers in the increasing cost of homebuilts. Lycoming advertises that they have built something like 325,000 piston engines during the 95-odd years since entering that market, boasting that their engines power half the worldwide fleet. Ford, who pioneered the idea of selling "cars to the masses", builds that many engines (or more) per month, this while currently holding a ranking of 8th worldwide in total production figures. Regardless of Vans, or any aviation-related manufacturer's intentions, there simply is no mass market to be had in the aviation world.

 

[skirting_virga]

Profit taking is very good and essential … without it you get a service quality of your local DMV office and risk going under ( Vans example )

Perfectly profitable companies (Hartzell, Whirlwind, others) are being bought by Machiavellian business entities who know they have the market cornered, for the purpose of price gouging consumers with no alternative. These were healthy businesses at a lower price point, being acquired by scumbags who want to gouge us. This isn't a healthy market, it's consolidation and empire-building. Greed may be good for somebody, but it's not good for GA.

 

[lr172]

I disagree. The problem that got them in trouble...more than once, was the lack of good quality control and oversight of the vendors. One instance, improper corrosion chemicals on kits, and more recently laser cut parts which sent them into CH 11. They have raised the it prices for temporary survival, but the high prices will hurt them in the long run.

There were much bigger problems that loaded all the straws on the camels back before those two were added. Sadly, they spent a lot of cash they didn’t have trying to ramp up for the covid demand surge. They also didn’t raise kit prices when materials started to escalate at that time, adding to the losses. The faster they shipped the kits, the faster the losses mounted. Finally management put their head in the sand on these issues and started using deposits and a large chunks of Vans savings to pay for all of the above. The two items you mentioned were just the final two straws that broke the back. It was a large enough event that it forced a wake up call, driving a look at the books followed by a large oh crap, what have you guys been doing. Red ink by then was way too deep for recovery.

 

[lr172]

Perfectly profitable companies (Hartzell, Whirlwind, others) are being bought by Machiavellian business entities who know they have the market cornered, for the purpose of price gouging consumers with no alternative. These were healthy businesses at a lower price point, being acquired by scumbags who want to gouge us. This isn't a healthy market, it's consolidation and empire-building. Greed may be good for somebody, but it's not good for GA.

This is a wide and sweeping trend in us industry and goes wayyy beyond ga. It is certainly sad to watch, but well within the scope of our free economy. The rich tend to get richer and always looking for the easiest way to do so. That said, a free economy has two sides. If you buy their products, then shame on you for helping them do it. This will ONLY be fixed by consumers banding together and refusing to buy from these companies. You should be using forums like this one to showcase these issues and help to lead the community be helping them to understand how we fight back. Pp alternator has doubled in price. Competition is half that. Where is the outcry and leadership. If we stop buying them , maybe they learn a lesson. This is not like the poor folks getting gouged for insulin or epi pens. We have options or can drive options. Don’t be a victim, be a revolutionary and lead if this offends you.

 

[RV7A Flyer]

Ah, the invisible hand, still hard at work, long after Mr. Smith began the field of Economics in 1776.

 

[gasman]

The people that I have met, the places I have been, the life experiences that I have had, have been worth five times or more than what I have spend on the initial investment and operating expenses. The experience of building, flying an airplane that I have built north of the Arctic Circle, landing it in 49-states, flying it to the Bahamas, and taking 20+ trips across the US before 2008 is actually priceless. It is also priceless to have fly an airplane that I built in large formations over Oshkosh several times and in a 49-ship formation over Arrowhead stadium.

And the crowd noticed......

I bet 98% of them had no idea they were all homebuilt airplanes.... Yes, the value is there, build on.

 

[Raymo]

This is a wide and sweeping trend in us industry and goes wayyy beyond ga. It is certainly sad to watch, but well within the scope of our free economy. The rich tend to get richer and always looking for the easiest way to do so. That said, a free economy has two sides. If you buy their products, then shame on you for helping them do it. This will ONLY be fixed by consumers banding together and refusing to buy from these companies. You should be using forums like this one to showcase these issues and help to lead the community be helping them to understand how we fight back. Pp alternator has doubled in price. Competition is half that. Where is the outcry and leadership. If we stop buying them , maybe they learn a lesson. This is not like the poor folks getting gouged for insulin or epi pens. We have options or can drive options. Don’t be a victim, be a revolutionary and lead if this offends you.

I wonder if they believed what was touted as "transitory inflation" and could ride the storm out until prices returned to normal, which, of course, never happened.

Pricing now must factor in the lead time to ship such, so even if the price of material remains flat, they still have to set prices with the assumption that inflation/material costs will continue to rise.