An Odd Exhaust & Snorkle Question

[TASEsq]

The Question(s) Up Front (TLDR)
- RV14 build in Australia
- Planning for SDS EFI installation
- Originally planned a factory new IO-390-EXP119, but with all the trade uncertanty and the s&*t dollar, the massive lead time, the thunderbolt price hike etc i have had to rethink things. Or sell some kids.
- Have purchased an IO-360-C1E6 core, soon to be overhauled i hope (converting to front induction sump - probably standard lycoming one).
- Previously purchased the EXP-119 Finish kit, so this came with the Dual Pipe style Cowl. (see pic).
- Thanks in advance to anyone who can provide some insight - i have never ordered, or fitten an exhaust system before. (i have asked Clint if he can advise via email also).



What exhaust will fit this engine / cowl combination best?

The options are
- The IO-390-EXP119 Exhaust Kit (crossover, dual pipe) which i know will fit the cowl, but not sure about if this will fit the engine, or
- The RV7 IO360 200HP Exhaust Kit with Heat Muff (crossoever, dual pipe) which should(?) fit the engine, but not sure about the cowl! or
- Get one or the other, and have a local welder make whatever changes are needed to make it work (we have a great welder here).


The second question:
It will be prudent to replace the starter (i think) on this engine. Van's sells a baffle kit suited to both the IO-360 and io390 for the RV14 and this comes with the VA-132-2 snorkle.

What starter is best suited to the VA-132-2 Snorkle?

Some background into the Snorkles:
From what i can find on the Van's store, these are the snorkles used in kits:

The IO390-A3B6 FWF kit comes with the VA-132-2 Snorkle. The EXP-119 FWF kit comes with the VA-271 Snorkle.

Van's Site says about the VA-132-2 "The VA-132-2 snorkel is designed to be used with horizontal induction angle valve IO-360 engines, with a lightweight Skytec starter, and fuel servo Bendix clones (AVSTAR, Precision Airmotive) VA -132-2 will not work with FM-150C Airflow Performance throttle body."

The EXP119 Snorkle is the VA-271 Snorkle which Van's says: "The VA-271 snorkel is designed to be used with horizontal induction IO-390 EXP119 Lycoming engines, which utilizes the Airflow Performance FM200 fuel servo."

Thre is also the "FAB-HORIZ INDUCTION-2" which van's says: "System includes ducting, filter, filter box and hardware. For Bendix / Precision Injection Servos. This "snorkel" airbox is designed to fit around the starters supplied on new 320/360 engines from Van's, the Skytec LS series. Other starters may require modification of the airbox."

From reading this, the VA-132-2 seems the most appropriate, but not sure of what specific starter ("lightweight Skytec starter") they are referring to. I am not too concerned about the fuel servo - the SDS throttle body utilises a silicone tube on the front, which gets mated to a 2 1/2" aluminium flange, which can then mount to the snorkle.

More Background
As some more background, i wanted to see if it was worth ordering the Van's RV14 EXP-119 Firewall Forward Kit, or better off ordering just what i needed from the kit contents. So i made up an inventory in excel. It has worked out to be a very similar price, but i think i am getting closer to what i want / what will work for my engine (i hope).

If anyone is bored, here is a link to the spreadsheet.

In summary, these are summary of differences to the standard FWF kit:

Overall a Similar price to the RV14 EXP-119 Firewall Forward Kit

Removing all Fuel Hoses & Fuel System (red cube etc)

Ordering Oil Hoses Locally (except Oil Pressure Line)

Remove All Wiring

Removing Mixture Control (not needed with SDS)

Replacing Throttle Control with McFarlane Vernier (personal preference)

Replacing Master + Starter Soleniods with B&C Units (personal preference)

Replacing Plane-Power Alternator with B&C LX60 (obviously!)

Removing the Battery (Getting Locally)

Replacing Hartzell Governor with Jihostroj Unit (Price)

Ordering Complete Engine Baffle Kit (which uses the VA-132-2 Snorkel (see notes above)

Ordering the EXP-119 Exhaust Kit, but removing all exhaust and heat muff componets, and potentially ordering "EA EXHCO 7/7A IO-360" instead.

Adding the PC Steel Prop Control Bracket

Adding a new Starter (Skytek 149-12 XLT) - need confirmation this will work with the VA-132-1 Snorkle (this is not included in price comparison totals)

Adding Monkworkx Backup Generator

Adding Aluminium Flange (10350-10) to interface SDS Throttle Body silicone tube to Snorkle

Additional Costs are the SDS EFI system, and any additional hoses this required for the fuel system installation

Thanks in advance to any knowledable souls who can enlighten me - i'm hoping to hear "nah, all exhausts are pretty much the same"... but since this is experimental aviation...

 

[Carl Froehlich]

The IO-390-EXP119 option has become prohibitively expensive. Your choice to adapt an angle head IO-360 has merit.

If I was doing this, I would establish the objective of keeping as much of the RV-14 IO-390-EXP119 configuration as possible. I consider the vastly improved RV-14 cowl that was developed for this engine some of Van’s best work, and the major contributor to the performance gain over the original cowl.

To do this, I’d:
1. Contact Clint at Vetterman to verify the exhaust made for the IO-390-EXP119 will fit your IO-360 variant. If not can he make one that works for you as well as the new RV-14 cowl?
2. I’d not go down the SDS road. I’d instead verify the sump compatable with the snorkle made for the IO-390-EXP119 and the superb AirFlow Performance FM-200. Sticking to these aspects of mimicking the IOP-390-EXP119 will greatly simplify your build. I also suspect there is no performance gain to be had with the SDS over this approach assuming you are using electronic ignitions (e.g.pMags) - so hard to justify the added time, complexity and money.
3. I never get the Van’s Firewall Forward kit as it has elements that I do not want (like the wrong alternator and the wrong governor). You can get the Firewall Forward kit and delete stuff you don’t want.
4. Get the same starter as what comes from Lycoming for the IO-390-EXP. While others may fit you know that will be compatible with the snorkel.

The next step would to see any issues barring your from doing this with your IO-360 variant. I will leave those comments to builders more familiar with both engines.

Keep everyone posted on your progress as I suspect many will be interested in following your lead.
Carl

 

[TASEsq]

Thanks Carl,

Some more info:
1. I have the EXP-119 cowl already.

2. I’ve emailed Clint whose initial response was he can build me one to fit the engine and the exp-119 cowl. He suggested I go with the superior sump, as i assume this is a known quantity.

3. I’ve always wanted to go SDS. I’m not going that way due to changing engine decisions. In addition, my core has no fuel system at all, and no mags. So going SDS won’t be that much more expensive than buying those parts. I’ve already been planning my electrical system around this.

Van's sells a baffle kit suited to both the IO-360 and io390 for the RV14 and this comes with the VA-132-2 snorkle. This baffle kit should fit my engine, and has a snorkle
etc which fits the baffles / filter frame, and presumably also fits the sump on both the io360 and the io390-a3b6 (non EXP-119, which has a different sump / intake tube setup). The snorkel is therefore different on the EXP-119 kit, presumably because the sump is different.

I was thinking the safer option was to go with the standard baffle / snorkel kit which is designed for an io360 with standard? lycoming sump?? (If there is a standard sump for an io360?) But I didn’t know what starter mates with this snorkel. Hopefully an rv7 or rv8 builder with an angle valve 360 will have used this baffle kit and will know.

 

[Carl Froehlich]

Van's sells a baffle kit suited to both the IO-360 and io390 for the RV14 and this comes with the VA-132-2 snorkle. This baffle kit should fit my engine, and has a snorkle
etc which fits the baffles / filter frame, and presumably also fits the sump on both the io360 and the io390-a3b6 (non EXP-119, which has a different sump / intake tube setup). The snorkel is therefore different on the EXP-119 kit, presumably because the sump is different.

I was thinking the safer option was to go with the standard baffle / snorkel kit which is designed for an io360 with standard? lycoming sump?? (If there is a standard sump for an io360?) But I didn’t know what starter mates with this snorkel. Hopefully an rv7 or rv8 builder with an angle valve 360 will have used this baffle kit and will know.

The VA-271 snorkel designed for the IO-390-EXP119 fits over the round intake of AirFlow Performance FM-200. This snorkel is superior to the previous versions for airflow as well (as tested at AirFlow Performance).

If you must go SDS, then I suggest using this snorkel and making a transition to the SDS intake. Shoot fire, if the SDS intake is anything other than square this will be easy. Keep the starter and such the same as the IO-390-EXP and you simplify your build.

The electrical power design that I sent you will support your very electrically dependent SDS install.

Carl

 

[hgerhardt]

You could also consider boring the cylinder base holes in your crankcase to the larger dia of the 390 cylinders, at least if this "core" engine needs new cylinders. Cost for new 390 vs 360 AV cylinders is about the same; at least it was two years ago when I ordered my 390 cylinders (haven't received them yet!).

360AV/390 share counterweight, bushing, and pin part numbers.

 

[TASEsq]

The VA-271 snorkel designed for the IO-390-EXP119 fits over the round intake of AirFlow Performance FM-200. This snorkel is superior to the previous versions for airflow as well (as tested at AirFlow Performance).

If you must go SDS, then I suggest using this snorkel and making a transition to the SDS intake. Shoot fire, if the SDS intake is anything other than square this will be easy. Keep the starter and such the same as the IO-390-EXP and you simplify your build.

The electrical power design that I sent you will support your very electrically dependent SDS install.

Carl

Thanks Carl - I hadn’t considered that tbh.

The FM-200 seems to be 3.26 dia at the front or circa 83mm.

The SDS manual says:
“We supply either the 60mm throttle body if you have a sump designed for a carb or an RSA-5 servo,80mm TB if your sump was designed for an RSA-10 servo. The 60mm TB snout has a 2.5 inch snout and the 80mm TB has a 3.5 inch ID snout.”

So if I order the 80mm throttle body the EXP-119 snorkel sounds like it would fit.

The question is at the top end. Checking the baffle kits both the EXP-119 and the io360/io390 baffle kits use the CB-00020 filter frame and the ES-33-2060 air filter so that end should fit.

Next question, is would the sump fit the 80mm throttle body. Are the bolt patterns the same? Looking at a photo of them, I would say, unfortunately, the sump on my engine wouldn’t fit the 80mm throttle body.



Having said that, I haven’t talked with the engine shop yet about what sumps they have in stock. One shop mentioned they had a “cold air sump” - so we can see what sumps they have.

I can’t specifically find it, but I suspect the superior cold air sump is designed for the rsa-5 fuel servo? The only way to likely get a sump that can use a RSA-10 / FM-200 would be to get the EXP-119 cold air sump from lycoming $$$ and time! (Happy to be corrected here).

In summary (as a reference for me or anyone else later):
- if the sump I end up with has provision for a 60mm (fm-150 or RSA-5) servo, then I need the VA-132-2 snorkel and a 2.5mm alu flange to interface the snorkel with the SDS 60mm throttle body.

- if the sump has provision for an 80mm (fm-200 or RSA-10) servo, then I need the VA-271 (EXP-119) snorkel and this should slide onto the front of the SDS 80mm throttle body.

I feel a bit like a detective.

 

[TASEsq]

You could also consider boring the cylinder base holes in your crankcase to the larger dia of the 390 cylinders, at least if this "core" engine needs new cylinders. Cost for new 390 vs 360 AV cylinders is about the same; at least it was two years ago when I ordered my 390 cylinders (haven't received them yet!).

360AV/390 share counterweight, bushing, and pin part numbers.

Thank you.

This is one option I’m considering. One shop here has 390 cylinders in stock - but I haven’t seen their quote as yet.

 

[jackking123]

Sorry to hijack but how did you finish inside of cowl, steps, materials.... I want to make my cowl look all shiny and pretty (and protect it from fluids and heat).

 

[TS Flightlines]

Sorry to hijack but how did you finish inside of cowl, steps, materials.... I want to make my cowl look all shiny and pretty (and protect it from fluids and heat).

Trent, anytime you go off plans, or use mis-matched components, there is some "experimenting" involved to see what works, and how well it works. Yes, the Lycoming backlog on engines is not only frustrating, but puzzleing. Using the IO360 angle valve base is probably ok, and you may find the parts you need in Australia. SDS is a good move, as is the AirFlow Performance system. Both have their merits and lots of flight hours.

 

[TASEsq]

For anyone coming to this thread later, I managed to get the 3 hours up to my closest RV-14 which has the standard io390-a3b6 installed, and it has the Skytec 149-12T starter installed with the VA-132-2 snorkel - so this combination fits.

As a second data point, E’s excellent blog shows how he installed the 149NL starter. This was done in Aug 19 and he didn’t change he the snorkel over to the EXP-119 version until Aug 22 - so this validates that the 149NL should fit with the VA-132-2 snorkel as well.

E's Van's RV-14A

A blog about building a Van's Aircraft RV-14A, RV-14 and RV14.

rv-14a.blogspot.com