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Options for alternative panel switches

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stigaro

Well Known Member
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With a dual 10.3" G3X display, it seems there is precious little room under the displays for switches as the bottom of the panel frame gets in the way. From this standpoint, the Honeywell AM34 switches seem to be the most popular rocker switches and will fit in this space (require 1.14" x 0.75" cutout). However, these are very expensive and perhaps not the most attractive switches.

I'm curious what other switches builders have used? Had the panel frame openings been 1/2" taller, then the much more common 1.45" x 0.83" opening would be possible and many more rocker switches would have become an option (eg, Carling Contura).

Has anyone cut the bottom of the panel frame off to accommodate a slightly taller panel and permit alternative switches? Would this present any issues if using a 0.080" thick panel and perhaps bending the bottom edge to further stiffen it?

I know toggle switches would fit in this space too, but those look even less attractive than the AML34 rockers.
 
I had the same concern and decided to go with VPX-PRO system. this allows for way less current on switches and wring. Easy to declutter panel also because you wont need more than 2 breakers..

Private Message me if you want pics. I use very small switches throuout the panel.

Unknown-1.jpgUnknown-2.jpgUnknown-3.jpgUnknown-4.jpg
 
Another option (if Vans offers it for the -14) is to make your panel bigger. For the -6 and -7, Vans offered a panel blank that was 1 inch longer, enough to fit big displays and standard sized switches. I think the part number was F-6103 OVSZ which is just a long piece of sheet metal with a 90 degree angle. You'd need to cut it panel-shaped.

I went this route and was able to fit a row of switches below Garmin 10" displays.
 
Draker said:
Another option (if Vans offers it for the -14) is to make your panel bigger. For the -6 and -7, Vans offered a panel blank that was 1 inch longer, enough to fit big displays and standard sized switches. I think the part number was F-6103 OVSZ which is just a long piece of sheet metal with a 90 degree angle. You'd need to cut it panel-shaped.

I went this route and was able to fit a row of switches below Garmin 10" displays.
Click to expand...
This is what I was wondering. AFAIK, there is no "tall panel option" for the 14. There is also a panel frame that surrounds the back of the panel that would need to be modified as this is what limits the space below the displays. A slightly taller opening on the frame assembly would have made a big difference here in terms of usable panel space and more options.

It looks like the -7 does not have a similar panel frame, so perhaps the bottom frame on the -14 could be removed and the panel provide it's own structure? Alternatively, I may be able to remove the upper flange on the bottom panel frame and rivet an Al angle facing down instead along the bottom frame to support a taller panel.
 

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Estevanb said:
I had the same concern and decided to go with VPX-PRO system. this allows for way less current on switches and wring. Easy to declutter panel also because you wont need more than 2 breakers..

Private Message me if you want pics. I use very small switches throuout the panel.
Click to expand...
This approach is another interesting option. I'm using the VPX as well and this is what got me looking into alternative switches.
 
You’re right about fitting the 10” GDU and the switches underneath. I spent a long time and 4 panel iterations before I got everything to fit. The pros of the AML switches that I used are double pole and being able to change the LED lights to suit your preference.
It boils down to personal preference, no right or wrong.
20240718_143901.jpeg
 
mc607 said:
You’re right about fitting the 10” GDU and the switches underneath. I spent a long time and 4 panel iterations before I got everything to fit. The pros of the AML switches that I used are double pole and being able to change the LED lights to suit your preference.
It boils down to personal preference, no right or wrong.
View attachment 73316
Click to expand...
Have you mounted your canopy? It looks like your G5 might not clear it.
 
kaber56 said:
Estevanb, nice panel! Where did you source the rudder panel heal pads?
Click to expand...
controlapproach.com

RV14 & RV14A Rudder Pedal System

ControlApproach™ offers pedal systems to fit all Van’s RV models. Our pedal systems are sold as a builder assembly kit, complete with all required components, including pre-painting, hardware, and assembly instructions. We also offer pre-assembly for builders who want to save time and speed up...
controlapproach.com
 
mc607 said:
You’re right about fitting the 10” GDU and the switches underneath. I spent a long time and 4 panel iterations before I got everything to fit. The pros of the AML switches that I used are double pole and being able to change the LED lights to suit your preference.
It boils down to personal preference, no right or wrong.
Click to expand...
It's a nice panel. I think the switches look much nicer with the black rocker. Where did you source these?
 
I installed the AFS ACM. Similar to the VPX. I used Honeywell toggle swiches. Mainly because the holes are pretty standard. If a switch fails, I can install a box store toggle to get me home.

I talked to one cutting company during the panel phase. He said all he needed was a flat piece of aluminum. He would cut all the holes and bend the bottom edge. Just needed a CAD drawing.
 
stigaro said:
It's a nice panel. I think the switches look much nicer with the black rocker. Where did you source these?
Click to expand...
Thank you. Aircraft engravers https://www.engravers.net/ supplied and engraved the rocker covers and Steinair https://www.steinair.com/ supplied the switches. Highly recommend both companies. Great people to work with!
I wired them so the light is on only when the switch is on. That’s why they are engraved on the upper half only.
 
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stigaro said:
With a dual 10.3" G3X display, it seems there is precious little room under the displays for switches as the bottom of the panel frame gets in the way. From this standpoint, the Honeywell AM34 switches seem to be the most popular rocker switches and will fit in this space (require 1.14" x 0.75" cutout). However, these are very expensive and perhaps not the most attractive switches.

I'm curious what other switches builders have used? Had the panel frame openings been 1/2" taller, then the much more common 1.45" x 0.83" opening would be possible and many more rocker switches would have become an option (eg, Carling Contura).

Has anyone cut the bottom of the panel frame off to accommodate a slightly taller panel and permit alternative switches? Would this present any issues if using a 0.080" thick panel and perhaps bending the bottom edge to further stiffen it?

I know toggle switches would fit in this space too, but those look even less attractive than the AML34 rockers.
Click to expand...
These are Carling rocker switches. You can use different colored lighting for the letters than the halo around the switch. The AML's suffer from "blinky light syndrome" which I've tried every trick in the book to stop. PITA.

The critical switches I used over the center locking Honeywell'sScreenshot 2024-10-31 144020.jpg toggles which I really like.

Screenshot 2024-10-31 143009.jpg
 
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dmattmul said:
These are Carling rocker switches. You can use different colored lighting for the letters than the halo around the switch. The AML's suffer from "blinky light syndrome" which I've tried every trick in the book to stop. PITA.

The critical switches I used over the center locking Honeywell's toggles which IO really like.
Click to expand...
Do you know which series of Carling switches? Those look really cool.
 
stigaro said:
Do you know which series of Carling switches? Those look really cool.
Click to expand...
HR-Series IP68 Halo Illuminated Rocker Switch. Rated at 20 amps.

Carling Technologies New: Introducing HR-Series IP68 Halo Illuminated Rocker Switch

HR-Series: Product ReleaseIP68 Halo Illuminated Rocker Switch The HR-Series is a perimeter illuminated, IP68 sealed rocker switch, featuring a stylish, low profile actuator that is available in either two or three positions. These rocker switches have a variety of dependent and independent...
www.carlingtech.com www.carlingtech.com
 
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dmattmul said:
HR-Series IP68 Halo Illuminated Rocker Switch

Carling Technologies New: Introducing HR-Series IP68 Halo Illuminated Rocker Switch

HR-Series: Product ReleaseIP68 Halo Illuminated Rocker Switch The HR-Series is a perimeter illuminated, IP68 sealed rocker switch, featuring a stylish, low profile actuator that is available in either two or three positions. These rocker switches have a variety of dependent and independent...
www.carlingtech.com www.carlingtech.com
Click to expand...
And where did you get them etched? I see they are not recommended for new designs though, although they may still be available.
 
stigaro said:
And where did you get them etched? I see they are not recommended for new designs though, although they may still be available.
Click to expand...
Aircraft Engravers, as mentioned earlier. What does "not recommended for new designs" mean ??
 
Estevanb said:
I had the same concern and decided to go with VPX-PRO system. this allows for way less current on switches and wring. Easy to declutter panel also because you wont need more than 2 breakers..

Private Message me if you want pics. I use very small switches throuout the panel.

View attachment 73297View attachment 73298View attachment 73299View attachment 73300
Click to expand...
would you be willing to share the cad files for the switch panels? these look really nice! would love to do something like this on my RV
 
I say you don't put any switches under your panel. Especially if they are the more modern rockers. That is a a terrible place. If you have ever flown with them that way you will know why. Just try moving your hands around the cockpit while you're shooting an approach. And then report back to us how well all those switches along the bottom of that panel worked.
 
jliltd said:
I say you don't put any switches under your panel. Especially if they are the more modern rockers. That is a a terrible place. If you have ever flown with them that way you will know why. Just try moving your hands around the cockpit while you're shooting an approach. And then report back to us how well all those switches along the bottom of that panel worked.
Click to expand...
Show us your panel !! Always willing and wanting to learn !
 
jliltd said:
I say you don't put any switches under your panel. Especially if they are the more modern rockers. That is a a terrible place. If you have ever flown with them that way you will know why. Just try moving your hands around the cockpit while you're shooting an approach. And then report back to us how well all those switches along the bottom of that panel worked.
Click to expand...
Especially in turbulence or IFR with a touch screen.
Learnt my lesson there in the first RV.
Second RV has as few switches as possible, and there are none under the screens.
 
FWIW, this discussion is super interesting to me, especially the HMI aspects of switch placement and the reduction of the number of switches. Switch-ology has been the cause of incidents I've seen in my career.

I second the request for folks who have done that to share pictures of the result.
 
Richard Connell said:
Especially in turbulence or IFR with a touch screen.
Learnt my lesson there in the first RV.
Second RV has as few switches as possible, and there are none under the screens.
Click to expand...
Locking toggles for the important stuff eliminates accidental switch activation. Not much panel space in an RV.
Can’t put them above the screens or the viewing angle would be to low IMO if you move the screens down.
So where else to put them?
1730582721346.jpeg
 
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Fuel pump and flaps next to quadrant.
Masters/ign/start overhead.

IMG_2511.jpegIMG_5073.jpegIMG_2844.jpeg

Edit. Add some more pics:

The best bit about experimental is the ability to tailor to your hearts desires.
I had a few specific objectives with this being the third panel build.

Firstly, as simple as possible - and as few switches as possible. It’s a fixed gear piston single, so there really isn’t that much to operate. I still plan to rationalize this more. Now that I have the GAD27 lighting/auto wig wag operation properly understood, I’ll probably kill at least one and maybe 2 of the light switches.

Next. Flaps/Pump/Toga near the throttle. That the only time you tend to use them so group them together.

All the masters/ign up and out of the way. They get touched on the ground only twice per flight so no need for them cluttering up the panel. In the roof pod.
I had an aero sport overhead pod but I decided that it obscured quite a bit of the field of view so I chopped it in half.

the two GDUs together and as far left as possible. I could still have moved them about an inch further left if I’d persisted with more iterations of the zig zag panel but I had to stop somewhere. The radios are canted 13degrees. Works fine but obviously closer is better.

The GMC is positioned so you can manipulate it with your right hand and still see the scoreboard on the PFD.

I have 300h on this setup now and I’m mostly happy with it. I can’t help tinkering tho, so there’s a few things on the to-do list. The panels are all front panel express so it’s super simple and economical to re-do as required.
 
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dmattmul said:
ahhhhh, nice switches down even lower than below PFD and MFD, you are concerned your knees will turn on your landing lights......., any in center console ? ;)
Click to expand...
Skinny knees :-)
I can live with accidentally turning on or off lights. Better than hitting the avionics master instead of the fuel pump at the FAF in IMC 🤪
The only irritating thing about the panel tbh is the USB there. The cable is always in the way. I tend to use the back seat USB now to keep the cords out of the way.
Will probably relocate to the lhs of the PFD.
 
mc607 said:
Hey dmattmul,
How does this present, in the AML34 switches?
Click to expand...
As you can see one electrode appears to be copper the other aluminum. These oxide over time. Yes, I've treated them with different solutions that reduce corrosion, and they eventually start to lose contact. I've tried bending the electrodes out to increase pressure and after a week or two return to loosing contact. The fit very loose and even from the beginning you can move the bulb in its sockets 10 degrees (They probably move back and forth 20 degrees +) and they go out. I've even tried to add a blob of silicon glue on the side of the bulb, so it does not move and after a week same issue. A friend of mine has the same rockers and he swears he does not have an issue yet when I went to look at his panel 2 were not working. I can get them all to work after a few taps but next day same issue. (They blink on and off at each tap) It's not a robust design. See pic and you will know the issue. Good luck !!
Screenshot 2024-11-03 185852.jpg
 
Richard Connell said:
Fuel pump and flaps next to quadrant.
Masters/ign/start overhead.

View attachment 73505View attachment 73506View attachment 73511

Edit. Add some more pics:

The best bit about experimental is the ability to tailor to your hearts desires.
I had a few specific objectives with this being the third panel build.

Firstly, as simple as possible - and as few switches as possible. It’s a fixed gear piston single, so there really isn’t that much to operate. I still plan to rationalize this more. Now that I have the GAD27 lighting/auto wig wag operation properly understood, I’ll probably kill at least one and maybe 2 of the light switches.

Next. Flaps/Pump/Toga near the throttle. That the only time you tend to use them so group them together.

All the masters/ign up and out of the way. They get touched on the ground only twice per flight so no need for them cluttering up the panel. In the roof pod.
I had an aero sport overhead pod but I decided that it obscured quite a bit of the field of view so I chopped it in half.

the two GDUs together and as far left as possible. I could still have moved them about an inch further left if I’d persisted with more iterations of the zig zag panel but I had to stop somewhere. The radios are canted 13degrees. Works fine but obviously closer is better.

The GMC is positioned so you can manipulate it with your right hand and still see the scoreboard on the PFD.

I have 300h on this setup now and I’m mostly happy with it. I can’t help tinkering tho, so there’s a few things on the to-do list. The panels are all front panel express so it’s super simple and economical to re-do as required.
Click to expand...
WOW! Another Level! Congrats!
 
Richard Connell said:
Fuel pump and flaps next to quadrant.
Masters/ign/start overhead.

View attachment 73505View attachment 73506View attachment 73511

Edit. Add some more pics:

The best bit about experimental is the ability to tailor to your hearts desires.
I had a few specific objectives with this being the third panel build.

Firstly, as simple as possible - and as few switches as possible. It’s a fixed gear piston single, so there really isn’t that much to operate. I still plan to rationalize this more. Now that I have the GAD27 lighting/auto wig wag operation properly understood, I’ll probably kill at least one and maybe 2 of the light switches.

Next. Flaps/Pump/Toga near the throttle. That the only time you tend to use them so group them together.

All the masters/ign up and out of the way. They get touched on the ground only twice per flight so no need for them cluttering up the panel. In the roof pod.
I had an aero sport overhead pod but I decided that it obscured quite a bit of the field of view so I chopped it in half.

the two GDUs together and as far left as possible. I could still have moved them about an inch further left if I’d persisted with more iterations of the zig zag panel but I had to stop somewhere. The radios are canted 13degrees. Works fine but obviously closer is better.

The GMC is positioned so you can manipulate it with your right hand and still see the scoreboard on the PFD.

I have 300h on this setup now and I’m mostly happy with it. I can’t help tinkering tho, so there’s a few things on the to-do list. The panels are all front panel express so it’s super simple and economical to re-do as required.
Click to expand...
It’s not a real plane if it doesn’t have switches on the roof!
 
dmattmul said:
I've tried bending the electrodes out to increase pressure
Click to expand...
Hey dmattmul,
Try this. I did it yesterday on mine and it tightened them up quite a bit. I wiggled them around and couldn’t get it to break contact. The loop has two advantages, it creates a wider contact area and it also holds the wire up and out of the groove formed into the bulb base which will create a bit tighter contact. Hopefully it helps.20241105_124815.jpeg
 
Walt said:
‘Real’ airplanes don’t have rocker switches!
Click to expand...
I can think of a few, all transport-category jets... ;)
bae-146-avro-rj100-cabin-1.jpg

Gulfstream-G200-Private-Jet-cockpit-1024x683.jpg

G3_Flight%20Deck.jpg

(top to bottom: Avro RJ, G200, GIII)
 
mc607 said:
Hey dmattmul,
Try this. I did it yesterday on mine and it tightened them up quite a bit. I wiggled them around and couldn’t get it to break contact. The loop has two advantages, it creates a wider contact area and it also holds the wire up and out of the groove formed into the bulb base which will create a bit tighter contact. Hopefully it helps.View attachment 73730
Click to expand...
I'll try !

Thanks !
 
I know the OP said no AML switches, but I wanted to advocate for them a bit. Easy to install, tons of options for operator colors, engraving, backlighting, and pinout needs. I believe they will prove very durable.

1731007899247.png
 
georgemohr said:
I know the OP said no AML switches, but I wanted to advocate for them a bit. Easy to install, tons of options for operator colors, engraving, backlighting, and pinout needs. I believe they will prove very durable.

View attachment 73787
Click to expand...
Nice George.

+1 on the Honeywell AML's, I've used them on many panels and love the configurability of the operators and switches.

The only downside/hassle/WTFIT with them is the backlighting, IMHO. The design was originally used T1-3/4 wedge Chicago Miniature CM 73 incandescent bulbs. (...but the 1970's called and they wanted their bulbs back...).

LED T1-3/4 replacements are widely available from dozens of suppliers, *BUT* they seem to suffer from either contact oxidization, mechanical interference, vibration, or dunno; they flicker - blink - need a thunking...

As always - YMMV...
 
bjdecker said:
Nice George.

+1 on the Honeywell AML's, I've used them on many panels and love the configurability of the operators and switches.

The only downside/hassle/WTFIT with them is the backlighting, IMHO. The design was originally used T1-3/4 wedge Chicago Miniature CM 73 incandescent bulbs. (...but the 1970's called and they wanted their bulbs back...).

LED T1-3/4 replacements are widely available from dozens of suppliers, *BUT* they seem to suffer from either contact oxidization, mechanical interference, vibration, or dunno; they flicker - blink - need a thunking...

As always - YMMV...
Click to expand...

You reminded me… I used APEM 2600 guarded rockers on my center console. I wanted an illuminated one for the fuel pump. I shouldn’t have bothered as it’s out of sight plus it’s annunciated on the CAS.
Anyway…
I couldn’t get a 12v internally lit one (only an AC halogen which wouldn’t work so I just pulled it out and stuck an appropriate LED and resistor in its place.
camphoto_1483920592.jpegcamphoto_1804928587.jpegIMG_4552.jpeg
 
bjdecker said:
Nice George.

+1 on the Honeywell AML's, I've used them on many panels and love the configurability of the operators and switches.

The only downside/hassle/WTFIT with them is the backlighting, IMHO. The design was originally used T1-3/4 wedge Chicago Miniature CM 73 incandescent bulbs. (...but the 1970's called and they wanted their bulbs back...).

LED T1-3/4 replacements are widely available from dozens of suppliers, *BUT* they seem to suffer from either contact oxidization, mechanical interference, vibration, or dunno; they flicker - blink - need a thunking...

As always - YMMV...
Click to expand...
Its funny that you mentioned this. We installed the LED bulbs originally. Even at the lowest output setting on the GAD27, the lumination was pretty high. It reflects off the canopy and is annoying. We swapped out all the LEDs for 1970s incandescent bulbs. I know what you mean about flickering tho, if the conductors aren't just right, they do tend to flicker.
 
For AML switch users who are having the "flickering lights" issues, we've recently started using these https://www.superbrightleds.com/cat...lb-3-smd-led-miniature-wedge-base/category/2/. Big improvement over other bulbs because the contact surface is a full circuit trace on both sides rather than a thin wire. Completely eliminates the flickering, available in several colors and not expensive.
Unfortunately Carling has recently discontinued production of the HR Halo series, so for an internally lit rocker with customizeable caps, the Honeywell AML is still one of the few choices.
 
Avionics Systems said:
For AML switch users who are having the "flickering lights" issues, we've recently started using these https://www.superbrightleds.com/cat...lb-3-smd-led-miniature-wedge-base/category/2/. Big improvement over other bulbs because the contact surface is a full circuit trace on both sides rather than a thin wire. Completely eliminates the flickering, available in several colors and not expensive.
Unfortunately Carling has recently discontinued production of the HR Halo series, so for an internally lit rocker with customizeable caps, the Honeywell AML is still one of the few choices.
Click to expand...
Hi David,

Do they get down to a very low level of illumination when driven by a GAD27?

Thanks!
G
 
I tried Todd's excellent idea to curl the contactors (at least on paper looked promising) after an hour in the air started getting the lights blinking (one or two) and some turned on and off when I turned the switch on and off and no, they are not wired this way. I even tried to apply flux and tin each conductor (see pic) and same issue.

I took Davids's suggestion (Avionics System) and ordered some for trial. Will report back how effective this solution was after a few hours of flying.
 

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