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  #41  
Old 09-09-2020, 10:36 PM
gfb gfb is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 734
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I'm pretty excited about this. In particular, any AFP owners that currently get the idle stumble and install the red cube in this location/bracket please report back if it solves the problem!
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  #42  
Old 09-26-2020, 05:20 PM
Traash Traash is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Montgomery, TX
Posts: 44
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This works well for me on my -10. Hoses from TS.
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  #43  
Old 09-29-2020, 11:34 PM
keitht keitht is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: coupeville wa
Posts: 137
Default Red Cube mounting

While I can see that mounting the FT 60 to a modified fuel divider bracket in the upper spine of the engine has some merit in terms of convenience, maintainability and minimum length of hoses, I cant help but think it is really bad from heat, vibration and stress between the fuel divider and the FT 60. Two component masses connected by the bracket and the fuel elbow ( two different spring rates) in a very high vibration environment. My concerns may be overrated and it may not result in stress cracks either at the fuel divider or the red cube but if it does it will almost certainly involve a pressurized fuel leak and an almost certain engine fire. Having had an exhaust stack separate on a 180 king cub while towing a glider and a resultant engine fire I can confirm that it was no fun. Luckily the fire went out after engine shutdown and all the oil around the engine burned off. Would have been another story with a fibreglass cowling.
With that experience in mind I chose to mount the FT 60 on the firewall back to back with the brake hose bracket. Two piece angle bracket supporting the FT 60, hoses by TS Flightlines, secured to the firewall at 6 inches from the red cube. Brackets have slots in both sets of holes to make assembly easier and stress free. Out of the heat, vibration and in the correct plane for level with the fuel servo.
KT
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  #44  
Old 09-30-2020, 06:07 AM
rv8ch's Avatar
rv8ch rv8ch is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: LSGY
Posts: 3,565
Default looks good

Quote:
Originally Posted by keitht View Post
... Two piece angle bracket supporting the FT 60, hoses by TS Flightlines, secured to the firewall at 6 inches from the red cube. Brackets have slots in both sets of holes to make assembly easier and stress free. Out of the heat, vibration and in the correct plane for level with the fuel servo.
KT
Keith, sure looks like a good installation from what I see. Only tradeoff is the extra length of the hoses, but otherwise very solid.
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  #45  
Old 10-01-2020, 10:03 AM
douglassmt douglassmt is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Missoula, MT
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Default Straight

I'm pretty sure you're supposed to have straight runs of tubing for a certain distance, several inches if I recall, on both sides of the cube. I could be wrong but it's pretty typical to have that requirement for flow meters.
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  #46  
Old 10-01-2020, 11:58 AM
keitht keitht is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: coupeville wa
Posts: 137
Default Red Cube Mounting

Quote:
Originally Posted by douglassmt View Post
I'm pretty sure you're supposed to have straight runs of tubing for a certain distance, several inches if I recall, on both sides of the cube. I could be wrong but it's pretty typical to have that requirement for flow meters.
I think it depends on the technology used in the flowmeter and if flow straighteners are incorporated in the design. Here is the installation instructions from Electronics International.
“Electrical Interface:
The Red Cube FT-60 interfaces with the FP-5(L) and most other fuel flow instruments. The input (red power lead) will operate from 8 to 30 Volts. Typical supply current is 14 mA over the entire operating range. Power to the FT-60 should be regulated and supplied by the instrument interfacing with the FT-60.
The FT-60 incorporates an open collector output (white lead). The output can operate from 0 to 30 Volts. Saturation voltage at a given sink current is 0.25 Volts (typical) at 4 mA and 0.7 Volts (max) at 10 mA. The output should be limited to 15 mA max. Recommended pull-up current is 1 mA. The output incorporates a two-stage comparator that keeps the output waveform square, even at low flow rates.
Mechanical Interface:
If the aircraft has a fuel pump(s), the flow transducer MUST be installed downstream of the last fuel pump.
Installing the transducer upstream of the fuel pump(s) can cause vapor lock and jumpy/inaccurate readings.
The Red Cube FT-60 has 1/4" NPT ports. Apply thread sealant to fittings, assemble and torque fittings to
8-10 ft. Lbs., DO NOT EXCEED a torque of 12 ft. Lbs. The Red Cube FT-60 should NOT be installed with the wires pointing DOWN (the best situation is with wires pointing UP). Also, the fuel line on the outlet port should not drop down after exiting the transducer. Both of these configurations can trap bubbles in the transducer causing jumpy readings. The inlet port, outlet port and flow direction are marked on the top of the Red Cube FT-60.”
There is no mention of angle fittings not being acceptable on the inlet side from the mechanical fuel pump.
The requirement for level ouflow is probably to avoid bubbles and vapor lock.
KT
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  #47  
Old 10-01-2020, 03:41 PM
TS Flightlines TS Flightlines is offline
 
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Location: Ridgeland, SC
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wires up. HUM-----UHHH what if you are flying inverted, where are the wires?
Tom
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Joint Venture with Aircraft Specialty
Teflon Hose Assemblies for Experimentals
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RV7 Tail Kit Completed, Fuse started-Pay as I go Plan
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  #48  
Old 10-01-2020, 04:58 PM
keitht keitht is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: coupeville wa
Posts: 137
Default FT 60

Quote:
Originally Posted by TS Flightlines View Post
wires up. HUM-----UHHH what if you are flying inverted, where are the wires?
Tom
I guess it depends on how much time you spend inverted. I would guess (but it is just a guess) that the bearing for the flow rotor is designed to take the load of the sensor (hall effect?) in the vertical direction in the plane of the electrical cable. So mounting it in any other direction will reduce the bearing life or missalign the sensor if there is float in the flow rotor shaft. I am just following the instructions provided by the manufacturer. Your milage may be different if you mount it on its side or upside down.
Of course if you mount it with the cable horizontally then you should get the same result shiney side up or dirty side up.
KT

Last edited by keitht : 10-01-2020 at 05:05 PM. Reason: Add comment
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  #49  
Old 10-02-2020, 09:00 AM
TS Flightlines TS Flightlines is offline
 
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Location: Ridgeland, SC
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Keith, I wasnt trying to be confrontational. We've plumbed the cubes in just about every orientation you could think of---and probably a few you didnt.
What started out as a plumbing exercise for a well known airshow team, has manifested into this monster of varying opinions, installations, and results.

We've seen from installations that the cube is very robust, thus can take quite a bit of punishment, versus the old FloScan unit . YES, with the FloScan, you really did need to install it with +-2 inches of straight flow, and the wires vertical for it to read correctly. Yes, those of us that tried to vary from that always seems to go back to the baseline. So when we started plumbing the cubes, we followed EI's recommendation.

Then along came some customers that wanted something different--imagine that! After looking at the cube, the ports and internal orifice have a dept of .500 inches. Combine that with your favorite AN adapter (straight, 45* or 90*) and you'll get from 1.5 to 1.75 inches from the orifice to the flare, or the centerline on a AN822 fitting. HUM---thats pretty close to what EI "recommends". (Let me say here--again---that for years we tried to get EI to give use a "recommended" install for IO360s and IO540s, with out success. We were dealing in the experimental world, and all bets were off.) So we tried 3 various types of installs on several different planes ( the airshow team) so we could test the results.

2 airshow seasons, lots of flight hours, various attitudes, and no failures, crazy readings, runs drips or errors. So it was concluded (by me) that maybe the orientation really didnt matter as much as it was thought or we just didnt give it enough time to fail. I surmised that the airshow team with all of their planes were flying a combined lifetime of usage to most normal planes.

Since then ( 8 years) we've found that there isnt really a bad install, but some seem to be better or more convienent than others. Per the recommendation of a well known fuel systems guru, we found that the best performing location was between the servo and the flow divider. NOT to say that a firewall, aft baffle, aft engine mount, or between the mechanical pump and the servo dont work because they obviously do. But in finding a universal location that works for most all the 4 cyl Lycomings, the servo/flow divider installs seemed more appealing.

As for full disclosure---I DO have a friend and client in California that moved his from the firewall to the servo/FD version and has had some strange flow readings, not all the time, that quite frankly didnt make any sense to me----and several others either. I havent heard from him in a while, so not sure of the progress.

WE are working in the experimental world, and we try things and believe the results, not the theory.

Tom
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Tom Swearengen, TS Flightlines LLC, AS Flightlines
Joint Venture with Aircraft Specialty
Teflon Hose Assemblies for Experimentals
Proud Vendor for RV1, Donator to VAF
RV7 Tail Kit Completed, Fuse started-Pay as I go Plan
Ridgeland, SC
www.tsflightlines.com, www.asflightlines.com
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  #50  
Old 10-02-2020, 09:16 AM
Steve Steve is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Roy, Utah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keitht View Post
There is no mention of angle fittings not being acceptable on the inlet side from the mechanical fuel pump.
The requirement for level ouflow is probably to avoid bubbles and vapor lock.
KT
The instructions that came with my cube actually gave the Mil Spec part numbers for straight, 45, and 90 degree fittings.
My instructions also allowed up to a 2" drop per foot on the fuel line from the cube to the carb.
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