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Zero flap take-off's

design4p

Active Member
Just wondering what flap settings pilots are using, currently I am using 10 degrees for my recently completed RV14A.

Is a zero flap take-off considered acceptable?

John
 
Zero 99% of the time for me.

I seldom use any flaps for T/O..except short/soft operations. When I first started flying my -4, I used 10-15 degrees for T/O. The RV's just don't need it for normal operation, and your at flap retraction speed before your out of the pattern. When I land, flaps to zero while rolling out, and they stay there until the next time I set up to land. Just my preference, but I bet I'm not alone. I fly a -4, not a -14, so I cant share the differences.
 
Other than flight testing, I’ve never used flaps for takeoff in any of my RV’s, but I haven’t flown a -14. I think the -14 has Fowler flaps (?), which should give you more low speed lift than the hinged flaps I’m used to. If you need the lift for a soft field takeoff, then definitely, and that’s what my testing was about, but normally for me, it’s zero flaps for takeoff.
 
I do fly a 14…

And I do not use flaps on departure. Early on, I evaluated this for my local conditions (really thick air at 20’ MSL) and did not note a need. If you were in thinner air, might be a good idea.
 
RV-6 200hp c/s prop, don't use flaps for take-off, mainly close to sea level.
RV-6A 160hp f/p prop, flaps only used for grass take-offs, ditto.
As the flap speed is relatively low and the climb speed is much higher best not to use flap to t/o as they have to be retracted quickly after lift off.
 
No flap for takeoff on firm surfaces and only 2/3rds flap for landing unless on a short strip - under 1200ft.

RV7, IO-360 180hp, MT 3 blade prop
 
I use 0 degree flaps for regular hard surface take-offs and 15 degrees flaps for soft/short field take offs as taught to me by Mike Seager during my transition training. Flaps go into reflex position by about 500 AGL. In my RV-14A I am usually off in about 500 feet without flaps on my home runway so haven't felt the need for flaps on routine take offs.
 
In the RV-9A, I use flaps 10° on takeoff so that the plane lifts off at a more nose low attitude. This means that forward visibility is better during liftoff and initial climb. Flaps come up at 80 kt, a discipline so I don't forget flaps on a go around or missed approach (IFR).

Learned this the hard way, taking off from a narrow runway with flaps up and the runway disappeared as I was rotating...
 
other than practicing short or soft field takeoffs during transition training, I don’t think I’ve ever made a takeoff with flaps in my -9A. Can’t think why I would do that…seems like it would add unnecessary complexity to the process.
 
Just wondering what flap settings pilots are using, currently I am using 10 degrees for my recently completed RV14A. Is a zero flap take-off considered acceptable? John
Yes zero flap T/O is fine. Think of all the GA planes from C-150/2 to Cherokees, POH recommends zero flap for normal hard surface Rwy T/O. Also all these GA planes POH recommend partial flaps for soft field and obstacle (short) takeoffs. So this applies to RV's because... they are airplanes. However in my 30 yrs of flying RV's and watching other RV pilots it is tribal knowledge and SOP from my experience to use a "notch" of flaps for all T/O's. Is 5 degrees, 10 or 15 degree flaps better? Flight testing with careful test piloting and measurements may give optimal settings. However RV's have excess performance it's not and issue. I think for soft field flaps may help you break ground and accelerate faster in ground affect as we all learned in Pvt pilot curriculum.

I don't even know the exact FLAP angle I use, about one second count and look out the canopy, looks good. I think of the flaps as 1/3, 2/3. Full. To be honest Flaps on T/O is a habit. I kind of treat all my T/O soft in a way, break ground and accelerate in ground effect momentarily, climb and clean up. Climb speed Vx, Vy, V en-route with no flaps. I may leave the T/O flap in for obstacle clearance at Vx.
 
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As noted, most RVs will get off the ground quickly without flaps. Is there any advantage to having a bit of flaps during TO if there is an engine failure shortly after rotation? Either helping complete the "impossible turn" or allowing for a slightly less energetic off-field landing?
 
Unintentional Full Flap T/O and lessons learned

Warning: slight thread drift.
I normally T/O without flaps.

During testing, I had to demonstrate a Gross Weight, 3 minute climb performance report to the Regulator.
Because there's Class "C" airspace at 1500' above my home base, I took off normally at 1800lbs for a 5 minute hop to the close-by Intl. Airport so I could perform the T/O followed by a uninterrupted 3 minute climb.
Density Altitude was 0 feet that day at 0C.

Landed there full flaps, left the active and taxied back to the threshold.
...Forgot to raise the flaps before the following T/O... I'll tell you why later.

After the T/O roll, (where I did notice a quicker than usual tail rise) I raised the nose and at 100-150' AGL I noticed I wasn't accelerating normally, I was at 80-85 KIAS... I realised then that the flaps were fully deployed... I slowly retracted them and continued the climb normally.

Now the why.
(1) Mainly because I didn't use the "Before T/O" checklist where it's indicated "Flaps Set"
(2) I used to leave the flaps extended after landing, during taxi and engine shutdown because it's easier to climb up and down the wing...

Lessons learned: (1) My arguably over-powered RV-8 will T/O at Gross Weight quite happily, leave ground effect and climb at 80ish KIAS at 0 feet DA.
More importantly, (2) I changed my "After Landing" checklist to raise the flaps and changed my "Engine Shutdown" checklist by adding "Extend Flaps"
(3)...USE THE CHECKLIST !!! :rolleyes:
 
Normal take-off 0 flap

Normally I'm in the zero flap camp.

But I occasionally demonstrate full flap take offs. Those occasions happen when I get distracted and they stay where they were.

SOP for me is: After landing, if going to park leave flaps full down. If taxiing back for takeoff raise flaps during taxi.

It works most of the time, but I somehow demonstrated full flap takeoff just 3 days ago :(

The good news, the plane can handle it, and it's among the easiest Oops!'s to fix.
 
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Flaps in a -9A

Same here. The flap extension speed in the -9 is pretty low, I'd be afraid I'd blow through it.

other than practicing short or soft field takeoffs during transition training, I don’t think I’ve ever made a takeoff with flaps in my -9A. Can’t think why I would do that…seems like it would add unnecessary complexity to the process.
 
Flaps

I never use flaps for T/O in my RV-9A unless I’m at high altitude above 4000’ DA. The 9 just leaps off the ground. My high altitude procedure is 10 deg flaps and lean the motor a bit and remember not to panic when the T/O is twice as much.
Wilson
 
I take off with one notch of flaps every time in my -4. It lifts off faster and is less wear on the tires because less time on the runway. Also if I have to turn back low altitude I have a better margin over stall. The only downside I can see is forgetting to retract them. Not that I’ve ever done that before haha.
 
T/O Flaps

I changed to using 1/2 flaps for TO in my -8, because it eliminates the tire "skittering" during the rotation.
Now, with 1/2 flaps, I raise the tail immediately and hold a steady, almost level pitch and the plane flies off the runway at that attitude with ease.
 
I always use 15° flap for take-off. Less time on the ground, better visibility over the nose, less tire wear. Reason for doing it every time, you establish a routine, thereby lessening the probability of forgetting to raise them.

If you have electric flaps, push the stick to one side and align the flaps with the lowered aileron. This is very close to optimum L/D.
 
On the RV-14 I take off with flaps all the way up in the reflex position. I am using near sea level airports with lots of runway. The 14 has so much extra power I did not see any appreciable difference using zero degrees versus flaps up.
 
I never use flaps for T/O in my RV-9A unless I’m at high altitude above 4000’ DA. The 9 just leaps off the ground. My high altitude procedure is 10 deg flaps and lean the motor a bit and remember not to panic when the T/O is twice as much.
Wilson

That's me too. That 9A has so much more power than I need that I've never contemplated the necessity of flaps for take off. However this thread has me curious and I'm going to start using them routinely for awhile just to see.
 
Hard and soft field

So for those who normally use no flaps when taking off from a hard surface, what happens when you fly to a soft field?
Do you then decide to use flaps on the soft field airport?
But one has not practiced a flapped takeoff since most of the previous takeoffs were hard surface.

For me, most of my mistakes happen when i do something different than normal.
So for me, if I ever intend to use flaps for soft field takeoffs, I think I would try and use them every time, even on a hard surface, just so i am always in practice for the soft field or the missed approach.

I heard it said that if emergency procedures are not practiced, then when a real emergency happens, it is unlikely those procedures will go as planned.
 
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Two things that were a game changer for me as a new RV pilot:

1) Full flap for wheel landings

2) Taking off with one notch of flaps

Both are such a delight in my RV-4.
 
I always use 15° flap for take-off. Less time on the ground, better visibility over the nose, less tire wear. Reason for doing it every time, you establish a routine, thereby lessening the probability of forgetting to raise them.

Agreed. Routine, muscle memory, SOP or whatever one wants to call it. Doesn't seem to matter much until it REALLY matters. Easier and cheaper to learn from our collective experience.
 
Rote

"...Reason for doing it every time, you establish a routine, thereby lessening the probability of forgetting to raise them..."

Yep, rote learning at its finest...unfortunately, that is one of lowest levels of learning.

It also breeds complacency...

It is much better to be able to "associate what has been learned and understood and apply it to previous or subsequent learning...". It used to be called Correlation, one of the highest levels of learning.
 
another data point

RV-10, grass field at home base - usually firm turf, some days a quagmire. Decades of habit from the -6A, too.

Flaps zero for normal takeoffs (no need to put into reflex setting at any airspeed per Vans) but retract to reflex on reaching cruise altitude. Full flaps on final every time; flaps stay down for easy exit/re-entry to cockpit. Have never needed to use less than full flaps on landing but might if solo and forgot the ballast or something :eek: and thought I'd need the added elevator authority in the flare. I will put in half flaps for T/O if conditions are soggy/soft.
 
I use my checklist so if I'm on a soft field I would use the soft field checklist. I don't buy into the 'do it the same way every time' theory since situations are never the same!
 
I use half flaps for takeoff probably 99% of the time. I like the visibility. Flap switch is next to throttle and can be actuated with my thumb while still holding the throttle. I also do not need any notable trim change from takeoff to climb using this method, not that it is a big deal. Ground roll notably shorter.

A big down side to not using them is what others have noted - when you do have a go-around and you had flaps down, you will quickly bust your flap speed if you forget to retract them.

I can't imagine landing an RV regularly without flaps. Nose too high and more runway needed. I only do it occasionally to remind myself that I don't prefer it. To each their own.
 
I use my checklist

This really is the key. Outside of training, the number of private pilots who rarely use a checklist is astonishing. I've refined my checklist several times to fit my workflow and add anything I feel necessary.

Earlier someone mentioned a habit of taking off with full flaps on occasion - checklist usage 100% prevents this. I leave my flaps down from landing to engine start for easy entry/exit and have "Flaps - RAISE" on the before taxi section of my checklist and "Flaps - SET" on the pre-takeoff portion. I've only used flaps for T/O in my 6A a handful of times so far, most of which weren't exactly necessary but made me feel better. Only time I was really concerned with it was on a 2500' grass strip with 70' trees not too far off the departure end. Even with just 150hp, the power to weight ratio on RVs is so high that flaps seem quite unnecessary except for very short/soft fields.

As for establishing a routine, I don't buy into that either. Go -arounds and missed approaches should be practiced independently to maintain proficiency rather than using flaps on T/O to check that box. Once again, good checklist usage squashes complacency.
 
"...Reason for doing it every time, you establish a routine, thereby lessening the probability of forgetting to raise them..."

Yep, rote learning at its finest...unfortunately, that is one of lowest levels of learning.

Very strongly disagree!! I found when doing missed approaches in the RV-9A, it was all too easy to forget to raise the flaps, or when distracted by a vector right after takeoff (Class C airspace). "80 knots, flaps up" is now a habit pattern, every time I go to full throttle.

There are a number of similar memory jogs used by pilots who fly retractables so they don't forget the gear.

Rote learning is different from a habit pattern. Rote learning is "memorization of information based on repetition." That's different.
 
Retracting Flaps All At Once or In Stages?

A bit of a thread drift here but a question to my fellow 9 drivers:

Back when I rented Cessnas it was drilled into my head that when going around you want to retract the flaps in stages, a little bit, then climb more then a little more. This is to keep you from settling back down after losing that lift. The few times that I've done go arounds in the 9A I still have that staged retraction in my head but I noticed that the airspeed comes up real fast and I get a positive rate of climb almost immediately. My question is, do you other 9 drivers retract flaps all at once or in stages?

And to answer the OP's question, I almost 100% use no flaps during take off. If I'm on a soft field (there is a grass strip near me that I occasionally land on) I'll match my flaps to the angle of the down aileron like Mike Seager trained me. Other than that, no flaps for take off.

A friend of mine who will remain anonymous told me once he accidentally took off with full flaps. He said it went up almost flat. A change to his checklist fixed that problem. ;)
 
when you do have a go-around and you had flaps down, you will quickly bust your flap speed if you forget to retract them.

I've never forgotten to retract flaps, in any aircraft including the RV, when doing a go-around. It's part of the overall sequence for *any* go-around which I (and presumably most others) were taught during primary training, essentially: power up, pitch up, gear up, flaps up (in that order).
 
Normally I'm in the zero flap camp.

But I occasionally demonstrate full flap take offs. Those occasions happen when I get distracted and they stay where they were.

SOP for me is: After landing, if going to park leave flaps full down. If taxiing back for takeoff raise flaps during taxi.

It works most of the time, but I somehow demonstrated full flap takeoff just 3 days ago :(

The good news, the plane can handle it, and it's among the easiest Oops!'s to fix.



Brilliant - One of the exercises I do on conversions. What an aeroplane - Eh ?
 
In training . . .

I seem to recall Mike Seager had me TO w/full flaps once in his RV7 just to show what it was like. Just a slower climb acceleration. His training showed many things about the RV in out-of-the-ordinary modes of operation.
 
Since the OP is in a -14a I suggest he read the recently resurected posts ‘flaps in reflex?’ On the -14 forum.
 
Very strongly disagree!! I found when doing missed approaches in the RV-9A, it was all too easy to forget to raise the flaps, or when distracted by a vector right after takeoff (Class C airspace). "80 knots, flaps up" is now a habit pattern, every time I go to full throttle.

There are a number of similar memory jogs used by pilots who fly retractables so they don't forget the gear.

Rote learning is different from a habit pattern. Rote learning is "memorization of information based on repetition." That's different.

Hmmm...

Habit: an acquired mode of behavior that has become nearly or completely involuntary. (by repetition)

Rote: mechanical or habitual repetition of something to be learned.

Say what you will, I have flown with, trained, and evaluated enough pilots to have a reasonable basis for my comment. Doing things in an airplane without thinking about them isn't a good plan...
 
Hmmm...

Say what you will, I have flown with, trained, and evaluated enough pilots to have a reasonable basis for my comment. Doing things in an airplane without thinking about them isn't a good plan...

Agree. Given that best glide is with flaps up in all RVs, an engine failure on take off, or in any phase of flight, requires strict discipline to follow the checklist.

Doing the same thing every time doesn't work for people who are flying formation, performing short field takeoffs at gross weight, flying solo on a calm evening.

Each PIC will need to decide what is safe for them based on their skill level. I urge those struggling to follow checklists or remember things, practice more and get proficient. It is important to be able to fly safely in different conditions and situations, use checklists and understand what is going on in your airplane.

Many of us fly several different aircraft types in a given month. Props, jets, turbo props, etc. Checklists are key to success! :eek:
 
Proficiency...Do-Verify works well

When I practice a go around or engine out, the first thing I reach for is my checklist.:)

Do - Verify is a great way to make sure you've caught all the applicable items. I know you're being sarcastic, but in all seriousness you should be chair flying things at zero airspeed and able to follow the checklist from memory on time critical items, like a go-around, then verify you've completed all the items when time and conditions permit.

Practice makes perfect, and those who chairfly and then practice will be ready to safely execute the maneuver, no matter what it may be. What a better excuse to spend time out at the hangar with my checklist chair flying over a cup of hot coffee before going out to practice a bunch of maneuvers to maintain proficiency?

In all seriousness, if you're feeling uncomfortable performing, then verifying all the maneuvers on your checklist (simulated engine out, short, soft, go-around, touch and go, etc) then consider finding a friend, even an RV experienced CFI to go up with and practice. A flight review every two years isn't enough for most of us, we often need to practice to be safe on a regular basis and if you're uncomfortable, grab a qualified friend.

I'd be happy to join anyone on a flight or two if they seek proficiency, need a flight review or an instrument refresher course. I live in SC but often find myself with free time in Los Angeles and Cincinatti while on reserve at work with not much to do.
 
Checklists are a good thing - but having said that, our airplanes (most of them) are pretty simple and straight memory should be able to do everything we need to do in them. The exceptions would be buyers versus builders, who may not know every bolt, rivet, and system installed in the airplane by heart. Same applies to flying someone else's airplane that you are not intimately familiar with. Checklists were originally created for exactly that purpose, just a few years prior to WWII when aircraft design was advancing faster than the pilots could stay on top of it.

The bigger point I would like to make is to reiterate the comment made by several folks - FLY WITH OTHERS. You will almost always pick up something, or at least find something to ask a question about. I can count on my fingers the number of times in my life I flew with another PIC and didn't notice something I was curious about or wanted to talk about. It will make you think, and that will make you a better pilot.
 
On the flaps/checklist question, it does help to have a FMS that says "Flaps overspeed!" to avoid bad mechanical stress on the airframe. ;)

Checklist is used 100% on start and BTO, but the before-landing list is so short and simple, I always do it from memory. Probably explains the number of times after a straight-in to the home turf that the mixture, prop and flaps are all where they're supposed to be, but at shut down I look down to see the boost pump is already OFF. :eek: :mad:

Bitchin' Betty doesn't have an input for boost pump, sadly.
 
Just wondering what flap settings pilots are using, currently I am using 10 degrees for my recently completed RV14A.

Is a zero flap take-off considered acceptable?

John

Going all the way back to the original post that started this thread (BTW, you’ll find this same thread very February, when people aren’t flying and just sit at their computers expounding….) - there isn’t an RV model out there for which flaps are REQUIRED for take-off. I’ve flown them all, and they will all do just fine if you leave them up - although you will get some advantages with partial flaps for soft and/or short fields, just as you do with many other types of airplanes.

But there is pretty much zero risk, and nothing wrong, with not using flaps in any RV model for take-off.

In terms of training, I operate so many different types of airplanes that I use what is appropriate for each - I don’t try and memorize (or generate muscle memory) that will work in all of them. In my hangar I have taildragger and tricycle, fixed gear and retractable, high wings and low wings, fast and slow - they each have their own checklist, and each have their own procedures. What they have in common is “flight controls free and correct” - I have never found an airplane where that isn’t a good idea before take-off. Other than that, fly the airplane you find yourself in at the moment.

Paul
 
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Yes

Going all the way back to the original post that started this thread (BTW, you’ll find this same thread very February, when people aren’t flying and just sit at their computers expounding….) - there isn’t an RV model out there for which flaps are REQUIRED for take-off. I’ve flown them all, and they will all do just fine if you leave them up - although you will get some advantages with partial flaps for soft and/or short fields, just as you do with many other types of airplanes.

But there is pretty much zero risk, and nothing wrong, with not using flaps in any RV model for take-off.

In terms of training, I operate so many different types of airplanes that I use what is appropriate for each - I don’t try and memorize (or generate muscle memory) that will work in all of them. In my hangar I have taildragger and conventional, fixed gear and retractable, high wings and low wings, fast and slow - they each have their own checklist, and each have their own procedures. What they have in common is “flight controls free and correct” - I have never found an airplane where that isn’t a good idea before take-off. Other than that, fly the airplane you find yourself in at the moment.

Paul

Exactly. Well said.
 
Unfortunately, since the introduction of the -10, and now the -14, there is a terminology problem. “Full up” is, I hope, self explanatory. But what is “zero degree flaps”? Is it full up, which is actually reflexed -3 deg? Or is it ‘in trail’? I’ve seen it used both ways.
 
Unfortunately, since the introduction of the -10, and now the -14, there is a terminology problem. “Full up” is, I hope, self explanatory. But what is “zero degree flaps”? Is it full up, which is actually reflexed -3 deg? Or is it ‘in trail’? I’ve seen it used both ways.

Yep, depends on who you are talking to...

For me, flaps up means 0 degrees, in trail. Reflex means -3 degrees. Lately though, I have been flying mostly in the trail position...
 
0 flaps for me on hard surface unless the runway is very very short.
Soft field T/O usually flaps 10 and up to 20 deg with almost 3-point attitude to transfer weight to the wings early on.
 
Experience?

0 flaps for me on hard surface unless the runway is very very short.
Soft field T/O usually flaps 10 and up to 20 deg with almost 3-point attitude to transfer weight to the wings early on.

20 degrees on takeoff? I am curious how effective this is for soft field? Do you have experience using 20 degrees?
 
I have never even considered taking of with flaps. I guess I will give it a try and see what the difference is. I’m climbing at 90 or so now so I will have to increase my pitch to stay under flap speed.

I guess higher closer to the airport is a good safety system too.
 
Going all the way back to the original post that started this thread (BTW, you’ll find this same thread very February, when people aren’t flying and just sit at their computers expounding….) - there isn’t an RV model out there for which flaps are REQUIRED for take-off. I’ve flown them all, and they will all do just fine if you leave them up - although you will get some advantages with partial flaps for soft and/or short fields, just as you do with many other types of airplanes.

But there is pretty much zero risk, and nothing wrong, with not using flaps in any RV model for take-off.

In terms of training, I operate so many different types of airplanes that I use what is appropriate for each - I don’t try and memorize (or generate muscle memory) that will work in all of them. In my hangar I have taildragger and conventional, fixed gear and retractable, high wings and low wings, fast and slow - they each have their own checklist, and each have their own procedures. What they have in common is “flight controls free and correct” - I have never found an airplane where that isn’t a good idea before take-off. Other than that, fly the airplane you find yourself in at the moment.

Paul



……conventional is a tail dragger!

I only use flaps in heavy machinery, Mr Vans designs are kinda over powered anyway.
 
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