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  #41  
Old 09-01-2022, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by VA Maule View Post
Please pardon my ignorance, perhaps I’ve missed something in the prolific amount of information on this subject that has been generated , but if it’s gonna become the only option to be had in the new lead free aircraft fuel world then why and how can it be required to PURCHASE the STC if the new fuel is apparently approved for ALL piston engines. Being compelled to buy basically permission to utilize what’s destined to become the only option just rubs me the the wrong way. Or am I the only one who sees the STC requirement this way?
You're flying experimental. You don't need an STC.

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  #42  
Old 09-01-2022, 11:30 PM
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Yay!

Horray!

Can't wait to find where to buy it.
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  #43  
Old 09-01-2022, 11:34 PM
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This is huge. Really should start a new thread for this news.

I’m trying to visualize how the acceptance and transition to this fuel will occur. No STC purchase necessary for experimental but for the rest of the piston GA fleet, not every owner will want to jump right in and purchase the STC, certainly won’t occur in any remotely simultaneous fashion anyway. Further, smaller airports may only have one storage tank for 100L. So how does the switch occur? There will be those with the STC, and those without, and most airports aren’t going to be in any hurry to spend the money to install additional tanks.
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Last edited by erich weaver : 09-01-2022 at 11:43 PM.
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  #44  
Old 09-01-2022, 11:40 PM
scsmith scsmith is offline
 
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Originally Posted by erich weaver View Post
This is huge. Really should start a new thread for this news.

I’m trying to visualize how the acceptance and transition to this fuel will occur. No STC purchase necessary for experimental but for the rest of the piston GA fleet, not every owner will want to jump right in and purchase the STC, and smaller airports may only have one storage tank for 100LL, so how does the switch occur? Most airports aren’t going to be in any hurry to spend the money to install additional tanks.
Well, in Santa Clara County, CA, the airports have just one tank, and it will presumably have the 100UL in it. (right now it has 94UL - no 100LL available) So, if you want to buy gas at that airport, you will want to have the STC (or be experimental). I think this will be the typical mode of transition - when the supply is adequate, airports will just start buying it and offering it for sale.
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Last edited by scsmith : 09-02-2022 at 12:50 AM.
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  #45  
Old 09-01-2022, 11:50 PM
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I think this will be the typical mode of transition - when the supply is adequate, airports will just start buying it and offering it for sale.
So the airport will at some point just make the switch and every non-experimental piston engine plane without the STC will just be out of luck until they purchase the STC? I guess that’s the only way.
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  #46  
Old 09-02-2022, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by erich weaver View Post
So the airport will at some point just make the switch and every non-experimental piston engine plane without the STC will just be out of luck until they purchase the STC? I guess that’s the only way.
My guess is that owner-operators who haven't bought the STC will just use whatever avgas is available when they refuel anyway, and nobody will really care very much.

"I must insist that you keep burning leaded fuel because you haven't paid a paperwork fee, even though unleaded fuel is available," is probably not a hill the FAA is going to die on.


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  #47  
Old 09-02-2022, 12:32 AM
hrhodes2@comcast.net hrhodes2@comcast.net is offline
 
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I posted on beechtalk, what’s an STC? 😉

Cheers HR
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  #48  
Old 09-02-2022, 01:10 AM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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Originally Posted by hrhodes2@comcast.net View Post
I posted on beechtalk, what’s an STC? 😉

Cheers HR
‘Supplemental Type Certificate’. If you have a 172, it has a type certificate - a lot of specifications, tests it passed, etc. That type certificate says, ‘must be operated on 100LL or 100/130 av gas meeting astm standard….’ So if your A&P/IA finds any other gas in your plane at annual, he can’t sign it off because it doesn’t conform to its type certificate. An STC is a license to use someone’s data (sort of like a software license) which the faa has blessed to modify the original type certificate, in this case, to use this new gas. EAB aircraft don’t have type certificates, so the notion of an STC for one is meaningless.
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  #49  
Old 09-02-2022, 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted by erich weaver View Post
Further, smaller airports may only have one storage tank for 100L. So how does the switch occur?
Per Mr Braly of GAMI states the G100UL is mixable with 100LL without issue. His OSH22 presentation explains most of the logistics of mixing or switching to G100UL. Note this is the saga upto OSH22 before the approval.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEnyHCwakww
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  #50  
Old 09-02-2022, 01:25 AM
scsmith scsmith is offline
 
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Originally Posted by newt View Post
My guess is that owner-operators who haven't bought the STC will just use whatever avgas is available when they refuel anyway, and nobody will really care very much.

"I must insist that you keep burning leaded fuel because you haven't paid a paperwork fee, even though unleaded fuel is available," is probably not a hill the FAA is going to die on.


- mark
There is a possible wrinkle here - the STC may not simply be a paperwork fee. I know that the SWIFT 100UL has a higher density than 100LL. (about 4%)
I'm not sure about the GAMI 100UL, but I think it may also be heavier. It also has slightly higher energy content per gallon.
So - presumably the STC for a particular airplane would include revisions to appropriate sections of the POH to revise range and payload and W&B data? Or, it would have to contain some kind of language that says the difference has been deemed insignificant so carry on with the old POH? Anyway there may be more to it than simply a 'license' to use it. now at this point, I can't imagine how GAMI or anyone else could have developed revisions to all the POHs of all the certified piston-powered GA aircraft, so????? How is that going to work?

A separate point: When you pay for an STC, you are helping to amortize the development cost that was invested. What GAMI has finally done is a really good thing, and they deserve to make some money off of it. Presumably some kind of royalty or license fee from the refiners, and STC fees. We shouldn't begrudge them that, as long as it is 'reasonable'.
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