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Zipties- does it matter what product

R

RNB

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I am ignorant and have only learned from search.

I need to change a CHT probe. There seem to be normal tipties used to secure these together, behind the baffles though. Is this acceptable?

I am reading that Tefzel have higher temperature tolerances.

Spruce sells some GripLock ties with rubber innards that they say can help decrease vibration.

I am only asking for opinion on using these for this application but need to learn about elsewhere.

What should I use and why?
 
RNB said:
I am ignorant and have only learned from search.

I need to change a CHT probe. There seem to be normal tipties used to secure these together, behind the baffles though. Is this acceptable?

I am reading that Tefzel have higher temperature tolerances.

Spruce sells some GripLock ties with rubber innards that they say can help decrease vibration.

I am only asking for opinion on using these for this application but need to learn about elsewhere.

What should I use and why?
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Most Zip ties will give you a heat rating on the packaging. The white / Opaque ties usually have a higher temp rating. Just know that a plastic zip tie will saw through aluminum after some time and vibration. I haven't had much luck with the GripLock ties after trying them in different applications. A good ADEL Clamp with the proper rated insulation is always the best option but for simple cable wrapping zip ties are usually just fine. Some
high temp Silicone tape can also help with vibration and is usually pretty inexpensive. hope that helps
 
RNB said:
I am ignorant and have only learned from search.

I need to change a CHT probe. There seem to be normal tipties used to secure these together, behind the baffles though. Is this acceptable?

I am reading that Tefzel have higher temperature tolerances.

Spruce sells some GripLock ties with rubber innards that they say can help decrease vibration.

I am only asking for opinion on using these for this application but need to learn about elsewhere.

What should I use and why?
Click to expand...
No need for tefzel fwd of the FW. I use cheap zip ties when there is not much weight or strain involved. I believe they are nylon and none have melted or braken in 1600 hours.
 
RNB said:
What should I use and why?
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My experience is that the 25 year old Harbor Freight zip ties on my RV-6 are holding fine, if somewhat brittle compared to more recent ones. People worry a lot about them abrading things, but if you eliminate relative motion, they are fine. If you have relative motion between wires or wires and your engine mount, or... and ..., you'll see abrasion. So, pick whatever ones you want and use them appropriately. There is a zip tie gun you can purchase to use to reliably set tension and clip the ends off so they are flush(ish). Probably $10 online.
 
I’ve had great luck with GripLocks - they are good for FWF temps, and the padded contact zone does a nice job of keeping them in place. I find the “re-usable” feaeture less than useful - it only works if you don’t cut them off flush (which I always do once my installation is complete)…but its god when you are just fitting things up and might want to remove them.

For bundles, I use lacing - for securing, I use GripLocks or Adel clamps.
 
Ironflight said:
I’ve had great luck with GripLocks - they are good for FWF temps, and the padded contact zone does a nice job of keeping them in place.
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With their padding, are GripLocks suitable for use to directly tie cables to engine mounts? The engine mount on a friend's Archer was damaged by abrasion from cable ties. The builder of my RV used this rubber sheets or nylon tubing around the engine mounts wherever cable ties were used.
 
jherzog said:
With their padding, are GripLocks suitable for use to directly tie cables to engine mounts? The engine mount on a friend's Archer was damaged by abrasion from cable ties. The builder of my RV used this rubber sheets or nylon tubing around the engine mounts wherever cable ties were used.
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IMHO yes - we “pad” engine mounts with the rubber on Adel clamps, pieces of split fuel line, silicone tape….the GripLocks are pretty much the same thing. They won’t always work the way an Adel clamps will in terms of routing, so you have to use some common sense and background knowledge to decide what to use in each case. But GripLocks are an excellent choice when appropriate.
 
I've used the TyWrap ties from Thomas and Betts. They use a metal tab for locking, and have a smooth body. Slightly higher temperature rating than most cheap tie-wraps, none of mine have gone brittle forward of the firewall.
 
lr172 said:
No need for tefzel fwd of the FW. I use cheap zip ties when there is not much weight or strain involved. I believe they are nylon and none have melted or braken in 1600 hours.
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I’ve used top of the line industrial grade and the cheapest available and in 25+ years I’ve never had one fail. Don’t really care if they get brittle - I never install them in an application where I want/allow them to flex. When I do heavy maintenance, all affected cable ties get cut and tossed. There are a few cable ties in the back of the plane or some other obscure location that may be 25 years old. But most have a 5-10 year lifecycle.

Also, I see cable ties/zip ties/ty wraps as a level down from Adell clamps. Less critical mission.
 
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My experience is the same as low pass.
I’ve used the very best to the cheapest and found little performance difference over time.
Wherever I use them, I ask myself, “if this fails, what’s the worst that could happen?” If the worst is a serious concern, I use an Adel.
 
Snowflake said:
I've used the TyWrap ties from Thomas and Betts. They use a metal tab for locking, and have a smooth body. Slightly higher temperature rating than most cheap tie-wraps, none of mine have gone brittle forward of the firewall.
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I also prefer the TyWrap ties. They are just nicer. The metal tab gives a smooth and finer adjustment than regular ties. They don't have sharp corners to dig into your hands.
 
available locally [ace] i have been using ''steel grip'' for years on everything around here for everything from snowblowers to my planes have never had to replace one. doesnt say aviation on the package but good enough for me. $5/100x 4''. i have seen lots af stuff available thati s poor quality though.
 
Ironflight said:
IMHO yes - we “pad” engine mounts with the rubber on Adel clamps, pieces of split fuel line, silicone tape….the GripLocks are pretty much the same thing. They won’t always work the way an Adel clamps will in terms of routing, so you have to use some common sense and background knowledge to decide what to use in each case. But GripLocks are an excellent choice when appropriate.
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Hi Paul. Sent you a PM when you have a minute. No hurray for reply.
 
Snowflake said:
Sure, if you're flying a Wright flyer. At some point you have to recognize that technology has progressed.
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Considering I grew up in the technology age and work in it, I cannot disagree more with your sentiment. Zip ties are the lazy mans quick fix. They DO NOT last. They cannot withstand temp cycles or the elements when compared to Wax lace along with they will wear what ever they are supporting and the support itself. I have removed Wax lacing that is approaching 100 years old and still impossible to remove without cutting, holding up triple aught and larger Telco ground/power. Once you learn how to lace you will despise zip ties. Just because something is newer doesn't make it better. I also say this with the fact I have access to some crazy quality "zip ties". I will say the only thing even remotely close to lacing is Deltec strap. It's just no where near as comformative.
 
Snowflake said:
Sure, if you're flying a Wright flyer. At some point you have to recognize that technology has progressed.
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Doesn't always mean that it's better. We use string just about everywhere on our aircraft for various reasons including weight control. If you were to use only zips on it, we'd be adding more than 100 pounds of additional dead weight. There's probably two or three entire rolls of string used in the complete aircraft and that's less than one pound of added weight.

Also, string tie lasts for decades... I've worked on installations that were tied in the early 1940's that are still tight and would meet current lacing specs, other than using a running stitch.

Pratt uses high heat zips on the engines for our program and we have to replace some on occasion due to failures while the they are in storage or before first flight.
 
pr1malr8ge said:
Considering I grew up in the technology age and work in it, I cannot disagree more with your sentiment. Zip ties are the lazy mans quick fix. They DO NOT last. They cannot withstand temp cycles or the elements when compared to Wax lace along with they will wear what ever they are supporting and the support itself.
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As a counterpoint I have never had any service issues with zip ties firewall forward on my 1999 RV-6. Many of the ties date back 27+ years when the plane was put into service. It is important to use them properly but I don't consider anyone who has built an aircraft in their garage to be lazy...... ;)

Will the zips last 100 years? That's a moot point, the RV-6 most likely won't be in service 75 years from now and if it is all attachments will have been replaced in the course of engine and avionics overhauls.
 
pr1malr8ge said:
Considering I grew up in the technology age and work in it, I cannot disagree more with your sentiment. Zip ties are the lazy mans quick fix. They DO NOT last. They cannot withstand temp cycles or the elements when compared to Wax lace along with they will wear what ever they are supporting and the support itself. I have removed Wax lacing that is approaching 100 years old and still impossible to remove without cutting, holding up triple aught and larger Telco ground/power. Once you learn how to lace you will despise zip ties. Just because something is newer doesn't make it better. I also say this with the fact I have access to some crazy quality "zip ties". I will say the only thing even remotely close to lacing is Deltec strap. It's just no where near as comformative.
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Similar to Sam's experience, I've removed 25 year old zip ties from my aircraft that were Impossible to remove without cutting. The right zips last just fine in the right applications. Very little of the wiring in our aircraft is exposed to the elements, and none of the wiring is triple ought. Prope tensioning ensures hold without risk of damage to what you're holding. Proper selection ensures no damage to substrate (chafing on tubing, for example).

Sorry, but also growingjup in the technology age and working in it, I will continue to disagree. I respect your opinion, and there's nothing wrong with lacing... It worked for years and continues to work today. But there are easier options that sacrifice nothing (maybe cost, I haven't priced out lacing twine).
 
Lacing is neat and clean but trying to do it on your back under the panel with one hand isn’t easy.
If you can plan a true harness that doesn’t need to pass through structure and lace it on the bench you can make a beautiful piece of work. It will last forever, but most airframes will be rewired as technology changes.
Most folks that say they lace a harness are just tying knots. A true laced harness is a continuous piece of lacing. Can’t really do that easily or efficiently unless you’re in a production environment and have the jigs.
 
JonJay said:
Lacing is neat and clean but trying to do it on your back under the panel with one hand isn’t easy.
If you can plan a true harness that doesn’t need to pass through structure and lace it on the bench you can make a beautiful piece of work. It will last forever, but most airframes will be rewired as technology changes.
Most folks that say they lace a harness are just tying knots. A true laced harness is a continuous piece of lacing. Can’t really do that easily or efficiently unless you’re in a production environment and have the jigs.
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Just takes a little practice. Hardest part to learn is tying the clove hitch completely blind and one handed. Continuous run lacing is not allowed on the aircraft I deal with and hasn't been for more than 40 years now. Telco and ground operations may be different. Very little of our harness work is tied on the bench. 99% is done in the aircraft during install.
 
pr1malr8ge said:
Considering I grew up in the technology age and work in it, I cannot disagree more with your sentiment. Zip ties are the lazy mans quick fix. They DO NOT last. They cannot withstand temp cycles or the elements when compared to Wax lace along with they will wear what ever they are supporting and the support itself. I have removed Wax lacing that is approaching 100 years old and still impossible to remove without cutting, holding up triple aught and larger Telco ground/power. Once you learn how to lace you will despise zip ties. Just because something is newer doesn't make it better. I also say this with the fact I have access to some crazy quality "zip ties". I will say the only thing even remotely close to lacing is Deltec strap. It's just no where near as comformative.
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I like using the cheapest zip ties i can find only for holding wires in place till all the wiring and harnesses are done. Then go back over and complete the job with waxed lacing cord.
 
Low Pass said:
My wife used to rep Panduit products 8-10 years back. She corrects me every time she hears me call a cable tie a Ty-Rap.
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When I started working for Boeing they had to "splain" that we only used Panduits. That was part of my Boeing assimilation.
danny
 
What folks are generally missing is that there are two different topics here - creating wire BUNDLES and then SECURING those bundles to structure. For making bundles, I love lacing cord - its is smooth, no bumps, soft, and easy on the hands when doing maintenance. For Securing bundles to structure, I use a mixture of Adel clamps and Zip-Ties as appropriate to the situation - I am not a religious zealot for either. But I can’t imagine using lacing cord to tie wires to structure!
 
Snowflake said:
Sure, if you're flying a Wright flyer. At some point you have to recognize that technology has progressed.
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agree to disagree. I actually switched BACK to lacing cord. If I'm not using an adel or similar the cord is easier to install, remove, replace, easier on hards and forearms, and on whatever it is you are fastening.
 
I have been around many Pitts S2B rebuilds. Aviat always uses PVC electrical tape around any tube before putting a ty-wrap on. The explanation is; it will prevent the Ty-wrap from eventually cutting into the tube.
 
Zip ties are commonly made of Nylon (I believe). Nylon becomes brittle when the humidity is low/dries out. Here in Arizona it's a real problem, even with good quality ties.
When I did R/C models we used Nylon propellers. It was common to boil them in water before using to re-hydrate the Nylon to reduce brittleness. Maybe that explains some differences in experience between users. Humid areas of the country should have less drying out of the Nylon.
 
BoydBirchler said:
I have been around many Pitts S2B rebuilds. Aviat always uses PVC electrical tape around any tube before putting a ty-wrap on. The explanation is; it will prevent the Ty-wrap from eventually cutting into the tube.
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I do the same. In high school science, i was taught that the harder material will wear into the softer material. First crankshaft I pulled, i found a deep gouge in the crank where the rubber seal rides. No wear on the seal. Thought to myself i need to find that science teacher.
 
I started out saying "I'm going to use lacing cord everywhere!"
That quickly turned into "I'm going to use lacing cord everywhere FWF!"
That quickly turned into the lacing cord sitting in the toolbox and I use zipties everywhere for forming the harnesses.

For securing the harnesses to the mount tubes etc, everything FWF is P-clamps. I'd guess I probably have 150 of them or more.

Aft of the firewall, I have zip ties secured to saddle bases from McMaster (glued or riveted in place as appropriate) and the like.

Dad used zipties (of whatever color/brand he could get locally) everywhere FWF, with padding and protection underneath as appropriate, and they've held up fine over 20+ years.
 
I'm a big fan of lacing cord. I've been using it for over 30 years on our 182, on both sides of the firewall. But I'm not a purist. There are zip ties where it makes sense.

Lacing cord excels near hot stuff. EGT and CHT probe wires, for example.

While working on the wiring on my 14, I finally depleted my roll of lacing cord, dated 2001. It was immediately replaced with a new one. I'm not sure I'll find the end of this roll.

My time is free. I don't worry about the extra time it take to uses lacing cord. I think many shops use zip ties because they are quick and help keep the final bill in check.

My panel from Aerotronics came with a lots of perfectly placed and spaced lacing cord. I'm sure that was reflected in the price, which is absolutely competitive with other panel builders, but I was very happy they used lacing cord. To me, it is a sign of care and craftsmanship. That carries a lot of weight.
 
+1 Waxed Lacing, but I'm a Telecom guy (wirejock). Check out a Central Office some time. Must be miles of the stuff on the cable trays.
No Zip Ties. Feel free though. It's your bird.
 
wirejock said:
+1 Waxed Lacing, but I'm a Telecom guy (wirejock). Check out a Central Office some time. Must be miles of the stuff on the cable trays.
No Zip Ties. Feel free though. It's your bird.
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I have seen old timers go ham fisted with Lace. Every rung of the overheard cable ladders. I came in after the last stepper switch was removed in my area. I would have loved to seen/heard an office going full tilt. Everything is going fiber and I cannot wait for copper to be gone. I will miss the smell of the hot irons and solder from the solder frames.
 
pr1malr8ge said:
I have seen old timers go ham fisted with Lace. Every rung of the overheard cable ladders. I came in after the last stepper switch was removed in my area. I would have loved to seen/heard an office going full tilt. Everything is going fiber and I cannot wait for copper to be gone. I will miss the smell of the hot irons and solder from the solder frames.
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Wow! Cool. Stepper. I do have quite a collection of phones.
 
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