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Will Vans sell factory built RV's now with Mosaic?
- Thread starter Mdragon
- Start date
I hope not. They need to focus on their core business and the last thing they should do is open up such a new liability can of worms.
Carl
Carl
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Auburntsts
Well Known Member
Outside of the S-LSA RV-12s they already sell, my guess is that’s gonna be a hard no.
N10KE
Well Known Member
I’m going to play the contrarian here. My opinion after looking at the design of the RV-15, pulled rivets and Van’s use of “unskilled labor” assembling the RV-15 wing, the formation of an avionics shop within Van’s - is that Van’s has every intention on building S-LSA (or whatever the new designation may be) RV-15’s. I also wouldn’t be surprised to see Flyer from Brazil start exporting to the U.S. factory built RV-10’s and other models.
Maybe a small company can transition from build assist to build and sell then...
There would be a lot more economy of scale if you assembled 10 at a time with employees familiar with the process. Ten standardized panels, same engine layout and install, controls, routing of wires/ tubes, etc.
There would be a lot more economy of scale if you assembled 10 at a time with employees familiar with the process. Ten standardized panels, same engine layout and install, controls, routing of wires/ tubes, etc.
N10KE
Well Known Member
Synergy Air/Synergy Air South would be the logical choice. They built most of the S-LSA RV-12’s under contract for Van’s.
Van's just emerged from Chapter 11 bankruptcy about 18 months ago and is still addressing some of the issues that got them there including supply chain issues. They're developing and marketing a new airplane/kit and continue to build the RV-12 as an SLSA. Seems like a lot of other stuff going on for them to dive into additional aircraft manufacturing. I could see them "cooperating" with organization in a build/assist program as Sling has done. I have no interest in building an RV unaided and without support, but I confess that a Sling TSI through Sling's builder/assist program is tempting. I was interested to follow Mike Ojo and now Josh/Chelsea Flowers in their respective Sling acquisition journeys..
STARGATE
Member
I don't know what they plan, nor do I have the ability/right to say what they should do.
I will say that I chose Van's Aircraft years before I ordered anything because they had a stable record, designs were proven, kits were sufficiently complete that the learning curve would be attainable for someone like me just learning but still require building yourself, and because they had a reputation for good builder support. (And because of the community following.) I plan to do slow build kits both because I like making things and because that made it affordable(ish).
I understand the desire for quickbuild kits or more, and everyone's needs/wants are different. I would personally prefer that any quickbuild or factory-built process/items not come at a cost increase, increase in lead times, or decrease in support for those choosing the traditional kit build process.
I will say that I chose Van's Aircraft years before I ordered anything because they had a stable record, designs were proven, kits were sufficiently complete that the learning curve would be attainable for someone like me just learning but still require building yourself, and because they had a reputation for good builder support. (And because of the community following.) I plan to do slow build kits both because I like making things and because that made it affordable(ish).
I understand the desire for quickbuild kits or more, and everyone's needs/wants are different. I would personally prefer that any quickbuild or factory-built process/items not come at a cost increase, increase in lead times, or decrease in support for those choosing the traditional kit build process.
Unfortunately all the cost (which is considerably) of developing quickbuilds or factory made LSA aircraft has to be recouped somehow and would probably be amortized over entire RV model manufacturing. To keep anything that is being factory assembled efficient, parts going to those end items will always have priority over individual part orders.
I have only my own opinion (zero inside info) but i do believe Vans would have a plan to offer a factory made RV-15. Probably not soon and may never happen, but the deign appears to facilitate an assembly process. Plus, with Mosaic, and Vans involvement in helping to shape it, it only makes sense that Vans would take advantage of it, if possible , in their future plans. Plans does not mean it will ever happen and I am sure they will focus on kits for awhile.
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The only airplane that I know Vans designed for the MOSAIC 2.0 rules is the RV15. From the various interviews and published articles, the airplane was probably designed to make it easy to build and probably cheaper to manufactured. The legacy RV such as RV8, is probably expensive to manufacture due to all flush riveting. Even Mooney and Bonanza judiciously used flush riveting only at the wing leading edges and forward fuselages to reduce manufacturing cost.
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I'm surprised to see how many comments in thread treat this as speculation, at least with respect to the RV-15. They have communicated very clearly that there will be an RV-15 SLSA available. There have been a number of subtle hints and circumstances, but the ones regarding use by flight schools are the most telling.
As far as the other prior models go, it's important to understand that while the rule change allows for a cleaner process to sell factory build aircraft it is not a free pass without standards. The SLSA aircraft need to be designed and built to an ASTM standard, and the manufacturer needs to have a board of individuals who attest to those standards being met. They have personal liabilities involved in signing off on a design and process as meeting that standard. It's not impossible, but I would not expect to see Van's do the engineering and testing involved on the legacy aircraft to bring them up to ASTM standards for SLSA.
As far as the other prior models go, it's important to understand that while the rule change allows for a cleaner process to sell factory build aircraft it is not a free pass without standards. The SLSA aircraft need to be designed and built to an ASTM standard, and the manufacturer needs to have a board of individuals who attest to those standards being met. They have personal liabilities involved in signing off on a design and process as meeting that standard. It's not impossible, but I would not expect to see Van's do the engineering and testing involved on the legacy aircraft to bring them up to ASTM standards for SLSA.
Could also see the demand for RV12 going WAY down as those same pilots can now fly far more capable aircraft with same license and medical requirements.
The answer is yes, at least for the 10. That is because I asked them, this year, at Oshkosh. However, no info on when-it-will-happen.
I think that a builder assist program like Sling's would be a great way for Van's to sell more airplanes. I would strongly consider building an RV if that program was available, but this seems like awkward timing for them to begin such an ambitious adventure.
It's worth pointing out that RV-10 S-LSAs are already available in Brazil (Brazil passed their version of Mosaic a couple years ago). RV-10 S-LSAs are built by Flyer, the company that assembles quick-built kits down there (Here's a fun picture) and that has been doing builder-assist for many years before that. They even have a diesel/Jet-A engine option (this one; They ironed out all the kinks and certified it, as others have done for the 182). I don't know what the price is now, but when they first started being sold a couple years ago, it was $480k (well under 50% of a turbo'ed Cirrus). Also noteworthy is the fact that Brazilian-built airplanes are exempt from US import tariffs. So, it looks to me like everything is in place for RV-10 S-LSAs to be sold in the US as soon as the certification basis is finalized (a year from now, right?).
Edit: I already told the guys at Van's that, as soon as they offer an RV-10 S-LSA with a parachute, I'm ready to buy one. (No need to debate me on this; My family likes the parachute and that's that).
Edit: I already told the guys at Van's that, as soon as they offer an RV-10 S-LSA with a parachute, I'm ready to buy one. (No need to debate me on this; My family likes the parachute and that's that).
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Auburntsts
Well Known Member
Hmmm. Tantalizing comments. However, I do see a distinction between builder assist and factory built. It will be interesting to see what path post-bankruptcy Vans chooses to go. Guess we'll just have to be patient as I expect that movement towards any of this will be somewhat glacial as they work through the machinations and develop/execute a plan that holds the least amount of risk.
N10KE
Well Known Member
Anybody willing to bet against a “two week to taxi” program by Van’s on the RV-15?
avweb.com
Glasair Spins Off Two Weeks to Taxi, Adds Vans RVs
The Two Weeks to Taxi program that was launched by Glasair a few years ago to help builders make progress on their kits has been spun off into a separate
avweb.com
That’s what Insurnace and risk transfer steps are all about.
My 2-cents:
I am not sure Van's Aircraft has the necessary investment capital to go down that road right now. Having just exited bankruptcy, they will not have the necessary capital for the square footage building(s) needed to start. Maybe the people brought in to turn the company around can get the financing necessary to start production.
All the posts above sounds like there are enough people willing to put down the necessary money to buy a flying RV-15. My guess is that the price would be almost $500,000 range depending on avionics and engine.
I am not sure Van's Aircraft has the necessary investment capital to go down that road right now. Having just exited bankruptcy, they will not have the necessary capital for the square footage building(s) needed to start. Maybe the people brought in to turn the company around can get the financing necessary to start production.
All the posts above sounds like there are enough people willing to put down the necessary money to buy a flying RV-15. My guess is that the price would be almost $500,000 range depending on avionics and engine.
It’s a 50% import tariff to bring that back into the US from Brazil.
I can’t see that being viable
RogerH
Well Known Member
Not only would I not bet against it, I'd likely be an early adopter.Anybody willing to bet against a “two week to taxi” program by Van’s on the RV-15?
Glasair Spins Off Two Weeks to Taxi, Adds Vans RVs
The Two Weeks to Taxi program that was launched by Glasair a few years ago to help builders make progress on their kits has been spun off into a separate
I might bet on that if we're talking about "two-weeks-to-taxi" from the date that all the parts have arrived. Currently, I'm reading about 14-18 month waiting lists for Lycoming IO-390 engines as well as months-long backorders on some parts from Van's. I sure wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that build option to materialize.Anybody willing to bet against a “two week to taxi” program by Van’s on the RV-15?
Glasair Spins Off Two Weeks to Taxi, Adds Vans RVs
The Two Weeks to Taxi program that was launched by Glasair a few years ago to help builders make progress on their kits has been spun off into a separate
Are you sure?
US spares Brazilian aerospace products from 40% import tariffs - FlightGlobal
The aerospace industry has been granted relief as the White House exempted Brazilian civilian aerospace products from a new 40% import tariff set to take effect on 6 August. The aerospace industry dodged another bullet on 30 July when the administration of US president Donald Trump exempted...
Are you sure?
US spares Brazilian aerospace products from 40% import tariffs - FlightGlobal
The aerospace industry has been granted relief as the White House exempted Brazilian civilian aerospace products from a new 40% import tariff set to take effect on 6 August. The aerospace industry dodged another bullet on 30 July when the administration of US president Donald Trump exempted...www.flightglobal.com
So it probably is viable then!
Will keep an eye of that offering!
I would read the actual legal document before going forward assuming no tariffs. I have not read it but knowing how these have been in the past, I suspect that tariff free only if new, from original manufacturer. I maybe wrong but I would not trust a news article on the internet.Are you sure?
US spares Brazilian aerospace products from 40% import tariffs - FlightGlobal
The aerospace industry has been granted relief as the White House exempted Brazilian civilian aerospace products from a new 40% import tariff set to take effect on 6 August. The aerospace industry dodged another bullet on 30 July when the administration of US president Donald Trump exempted...
N10KE
Well Known Member
Maybe not, but keep in mind who instituted the two weeks to taxi program at Glasair (Mikael Via - current Van’s CEO) and also got the FAA to buy off on them doing RV’s the same way. And it’s not like the airplane is ready to taxi in two weeks, merely that the “builder” spends two weeks at the facility and then comes back sometime later to pick up the airplane that “they” built.
We currently have an entirely different environment than when Mikael Via left Glasair in 2012, however. Certainly if Van's were going to create such a program, Via would be a great guy to do it but I just don't see how they would get around the current supply chain issues, which Van's already and still seems to struggle with even without a 2 week build/assist program. Notably, Glasair itself gave up the "2-weeks-to-taxi" program during COVID and haven't re-instituted it. Add in post-bankruptcy challenges, whatever they are, and I'm pretty skeptical that such a program at Van's is anywhere on the near horizon.
ETA: never say never, and ICBW
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AeroEngineer
Well Known Member
There is no 51% rule for E-LSA (...right? Please correct me if I'm wrong). So, in theory, once there is an E-LSA option for the 15, it should be possible to "build" one in even less than 2 weeks. ("Build" in quotes because you'd be doing less work than a quickbuilt currently requires).
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You are correct, but as pointed out to me prior, S-LSA comes before E-LSA. So factory built first. So how much do you want to pay for "quicker build"? I suspect that it will eventually be like the 12. Factory built SLSA or ELSA kit with out "quick build" options. Of course the ELSA kit can always be built EAB just like these first kits are with the 51% rule applied.
