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Where to Land?

SMO

SMO

Well Known Member
Friend
Just wondering:

You are flying along in your RV and oops! the engine throws a rod. You are over a river lined with tall trees on each side, and these and the water are your only choices for a landing spot.

Do you take the water or the trees?

Does taking the water guarantee a flip?

Does a flip in 3' of water guarantee a drowning?
 
Such a positive post...

Does hitting a tree mean you are going to take a branch through the head?

How about getting hung up in the tree 75' off the ground? You could kill yourself getting down.

Ya's takes your chances and deal with it.

Me, I would pop the canopy just as I hit the water.
 
Stats on survival in ditching and treeing are the same from what I have read. If I remember correctly the survival rates were around 90 percent.
I would take the water.
 
Awareness...

SMO said:
Just wondering:

You are flying along in your RV and oops! the engine throws a rod. You are over a river lined with tall trees on each side, and these and the water are your only choices for a landing spot.

Do you take the water or the trees?

Does taking the water guarantee a flip?

Does a flip in 3' of water guarantee a drowning?
Click to expand...

This is a lesson in awareness, what kind of trees? What is the water temperature? Alligators? :eek: A water landing doesn't guarantee a flip. but it is likely. A shallow water flip doesn't have to mean drowning, but you are better off with a plan beforehand.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
A more likely scenario here in the midwest is you have a choice of two field, corn and soybeans. Go with the corn. Soybeans may be short, but very tough and will flip almost anything. Corn is far less likely to put you on your top.

Bob Kelly
 
If you are going to be flying a lot over water maybe a good choice would be to install some primer cord on the gear legs. If a water landing is inevitable, blow the gear and make a belly up landing. Without the gear you would not flip over and getting out should be a lot easier. You would certainly want to have the gear release button well protected so accidental operation wouldn't leave your gear departing at an inopportune time.
 
Norman CYYJ said:
If you are going to be flying a lot over water maybe a good choice would be to install some primer cord on the gear legs. If a water landing is inevitable, blow the gear and make a belly up landing. Without the gear you would not flip over and getting out should be a lot easier. You would certainly want to have the gear release button well protected so accidental operation wouldn't leave your gear departing at an inopportune time.
Click to expand...

That's funny.:D Hey, you know what? This may be an idea for one of those record setting cross country flights. You could always land dead-stick on the back of a flatbed truck on a pile of matresses. :p
 
Elevation is not the issue

Rivethead said:
Why are you so low over that terrain?
Click to expand...

If you take a look at Google maps at the terrain across southern BC you will understand that if you want to fly xcountry here these are the often only choices you have, regardless of your elevation.

I have contemplated this seriously and believe I would opt for the treetops, but would like to hear the experience from any who have survived a water landing in an RV. What are the appropriate actions/precautions?

No alligators in this part of the country, and the roads that do exist are rarely straight enough to put down on.
 
Trees...

.....saved my late boss, Jack Sliker when his Cessna Agwagon quit due to a broken intake airbox. He dumped the load, pulled full flaps and flared into tall pines as slow as possible. The airplane came to rest quite a ways above the ground and he got scratched and bruised climbing down.

Sorry, I can't help you with water landings.

Regards,
 
Trees

Surviving a water landing may require you to unfasten you seatbelts, open the canpoy, exit the aircraft, identify where the sky is, and swim in the right direction...all within a matter of seconds. If you have suffered any trauma in the landing, you chances aren't good.

With a tree landing, you'll have time to sort out what to do next.
 
Somebody must have researched the water option ?

Jon Johannson (sorry if the spelling is wrong) ferries RV's across the Pacific and must have thought about the water landing option. It is also hard to believe that no RV has ditched yet.

I came within a few minutes of finding out the answer when my engine quit 8 Nm out to sea except that I had climbed reasonably hard and had 8500' for an easy glide back to the coastal strip.

The issues which might be relevant are that the a/c will probably flip. especially with the nosewheel option. The canopy will be held down by the weight of the a/c and water displacement so will not be possible to slide open. Opening the canopy before ditching might be counter-productive if it doesn't detach but slams shut on impact. Softwood (pines) might be very different from hardwood (eucalypts).

One suggestion which might be worth thinking about would be to drop a wing on impact with the aim of spinning the a/c around enough to have the other wing prevent a tip over. The side-on forces applied to the human body by this manoeuvre might be lethal anyhow and would not be well catered for by the harness.

If anybody knows a way of researching the ditching scenario using models or maybe computer simulation, I would be prepared to put some money up.

Maybe a ballistic chute, a "water ski" instead of the front wheel pant or some other idea might be worth a second look for over-water fliers.

Rupert Clarke
RV-9A, 140 hrs.
 
Jimmy Buffet..

......wrote about being upside down underwater in his seaplane and remembered the "bubbles up" training he had received earlier, that is, because of tumbling turning, etc, you can be very disoriented as to which way is up. Bubbles always go up so watch them (if you can) to determine your direction.

Regards,
 
Passengers, please assume the crash position.

SMO said:
Just wondering:

You are flying along in your RV and oops! the engine throws a rod. You are over a river lined with tall trees on each side, and these and the water are your only choices for a landing spot.

Do you take the water or the trees?

Does taking the water guarantee a flip?

Does a flip in 3' of water guarantee a drowning?
Click to expand...

I was taught, airport, road, field, then a coin toss on water or trees. If you choose the trees, aim between them so you can sheer the wings and leave the fuel behind.

Based on an earlier thread, you've got a reasonable range of 5 miles glide for 1 mile up. I liked the earlier post of land on the road beside the river. If I'm traveling someplace, I'm usually up 8-9K

I wonder, could you pick the water, hit the altitude hold on the A/P when about 10 feet off the ground. As the plane settles, it keeps trimming up to a stall, and bail out as it stalls?

Interesting article: http://www.equipped.org/watertrees.htm

From that article: The overall survival rate between the two appears to be about the same, but the injury rate is higher if you go for the trees.

FORCED LANDING CHECKLIST
To avoid landing downwind, especially in IMC, compare the GPS groundspeed to true airspeed. (You did calculate that, right?)
Compare GPS heading with compass/DG to find crosswind direction and strength.
The closest airport may be behind you.
Find an airport, field or deserted road if possible.
Seat belts as tight as you can stand.
Stow loose objects.
Once landing area is made, slow to minimum sink speed. It's close to maximum endurance speed and roughly 1.2 times clean stall speed.
Give accurate position report to ATC, including GPS coordinates if you can.
Flaps to full.
Landing gear is a toss-up. Make your best call.
Try to relax.
Electrics, fuel off and doors cracked open before impact.
Cushion face with pillow or folded jacket or blanket.
 
I fly rivers all the time, I feel that if the engine quits to hit the shore line, obvious. than at the last second point it into the shore, if there is a house, park it in their porch, hit a tree, make sure it hits the wing NOT the engine. If you have no choice and have to land on the water, keep the speed up just off the water, then pull major up and try to do a lail land, and of course if you have the time, open the canopy, doors for an exit.
 
I'd take the water... and I'd hit it inverted, and use the rudder and the aircrafts momentum to steer me to the coastline. :D
 
clarkefarm said:
It is also hard to believe that no RV has ditched yet.
Click to expand...


There has been one RV-8 to my knowledge that ditched in the ocean while flying between some of the Hawaiian Islands. Yes, he flipped and got out. He said the strangest thing was the speed with which the airplane sank!
 
RV-8 Ditching

I recall reading an account of an RV-8 ditching in Hawaii. He was flying from Honolulu to Kauai and his engine quit. He had enough atitude to call Honolulu Center and report his position. The plane flipped over but he was able to get the canopy open and swim out and it sank rather quickly. The coast guard got to him within about an hour IIRC. Of course there was no way to find out why the engine quit as the water is about 4 miles deep there.

Paul Danclovic
Jamestown NC
RV-8A N181SB
 
pierre smith said:
......wrote about being upside down underwater in his seaplane and remembered the "bubbles up" training he had received earlier, that is, because of tumbling turning, etc, you can be very disoriented as to which way is up. Bubbles always go up so watch them (if you can) to determine your direction.

Regards,
Click to expand...
I know it sounds funny that you can be under water and not know which direction the surface is; but, as a kid I got thrown out of a speed boat that was jumping the wake of another boat at about 40 to 50 MPH. One instant I was in the boat and the next instant I was under water with no idea of what happened or why I was there. I had no clue which way the surface was. That day it was God's hand that led me to the surface. I plan to keep him with me when I get my -7A in the air next month.
 
pierre smith said:
because of tumbling turning, etc, you can be very disoriented as to which way is up. Bubbles always go up so watch them (if you can) to determine your direction.
Click to expand...

I can tell you that this is absolutely true, even if you know what's going to happen and exactly what the vehicle you're in is going to do beforehand. In the Navy water survival training all Naval aircrew go through before earning their wings, one evolution involves riding in full flight gear, strapped into a helicopter simulator (which is cylindrical and with flattened ends, giving rise to its nickname "Panic in a Can") while said device is dropped into a large pool. The vehicle then sinks and flips over, once. Once all motion stops, you egress the simulator through either the nearest aperture or through a designated exit (given to you over a loudspeaker just as the thing hits the water). You also do this blindfolded to simulate night ops or murky water.

In my class, each of us got out okay all four times we rode it, but during one of the blindfolded runs, I managed to swim over TOP of the simulator and end up on the wrong side of it, leading to several of the SEALs thinking that I'd gone out the wrong exit. (One of the SEALs watching from outside the pool called out that I'd come out on the right side, but being a bit disoriented, I didn't realize that I was swimming underwater for some distance before surfacing only after I'd swum all the way across the top of the thing.

-- Chris
 
Of course, you put it down on the porta potty

portah.jpg
 
Yep, in our neck of the woods here in the great Northwest, it's either really big trees, very cold water, steep and snow covered mountains, or of course, porta-potties! :D Make mine plastic!
 
clarkefarm said:
It is also hard to believe that no RV has ditched yet.
Click to expand...

Jamie said:
There has been one RV-8 to my knowledge that ditched in the ocean while flying between some of the Hawaiian Islands. Yes, he flipped and got out. He said the strangest thing was the speed with which the airplane sank!
Click to expand...

pauldan181 said:
I recall reading an account of an RV-8 ditching in Hawaii. He was flying from Honolulu to Kauai and his engine quit. He had enough atitude to call Honolulu Center and report his position. The plane flipped over but he was able to get the canopy open and swim out and it sank rather quickly. The coast guard got to him within about an hour IIRC. Of course there was no way to find out why the engine quit as the water is about 4 miles deep there.
Click to expand...

http://www.vansairforce.net/articles/Ditching.htm

Lot's of good stuff in the "articles" section of this site. Look for it on the left side of the main page. Happy reading.
 
SMO said:
Just wondering:

You are flying along in your RV and oops! the engine throws a rod. You are over a river lined with tall trees on each side, and these and the water are your only choices for a landing spot.

Do you take the water or the trees?

Does taking the water guarantee a flip?

Does a flip in 3' of water guarantee a drowning?
Click to expand...

Mark,

There are no best answers to your questions. Airplanes have ended flight in water and trees, the outcome not good in some cases and ok in others. The NTSB data base is littered with the wreckage of such flights.

The decision to fly over inhospitable territory is a matter of risk and also where you live. Some pilots have no choice but generally if such areas can be avoided, it is good idea to do so in a single engine airplane. That's called risk assessment.

I've had 2 forced landings. One ended on a concrete runway, the other upside down on a road between a bean field and a corn field. The outcome of each was a matter of luck, where the engine quit and continuing to fly the airplane.

Like Bob Hoover said a long time ago, fly the airplane as far into the crash as possible. That means airspeed control until the bloody end. It doesn't matter if it is rocks, trees, water, a road or a nice flat field - going in under control is better than a stall at 300' with the brain locked up in total disbelief as to what is going on.

Some days there won't be enough time to pick up a check list, much less read it. So the mind has to programmed to managing the flight and getting beyond the shock of going down. In the one situation, I was moving switches, a fuel valve and hitting the starter in an attempt to re-light the motor and meanwhile the airspeed indicator was decreasing at an alarming rate - like the nose had to be pushed over right not the correct the situation. The rest of the flight was focused on a landing site, setting flaps and landing. It was over in about one minute from the time the engine died. And then it was crawling out of the wreck and standing there in total disbelief as to what had happened so quickly.

Are trees better than water? It is impossible to say or pre-plan it. You simply do not know what the circumstances will be and which is a better choice - if there is a choice at all.

But it is a very good ideal to have the mind spring loaded to flying the airplane no matter what. After that, hope and pray the final decisions will save most of the day.
 
I know this crazy not very irresponsible guy down in Brazil that was doing a low pass over a crowded beach and had the engine quitting due to lack of fuel (selected the wrong tank) and had 1 choice.. land on the sea. He did so and his RV9A did NOT flip. People on the beach watching swam to help and pulled the floating RV9A close to the beach, the guy slided the canopy, left the cockpit, walked on the wing and dropped in the beach sand, never getting his show wet. Lucky *******!!!
Losses were a bent wing, broken landing gear and an engine to make.
Gains, hopefully some maturity, his life and hundreds of lives on the beach.

Moura
 
Last summer, Banner towing tail dragger at Myrtle Beach got his prop tangled in another planes banner. Wrapped into the prop shutting down the engine. He had to ditch in the ocean just off shore. Flipped over in 5 feet of water. Minor bump on the head during landing, he struggled to get belts unlatched then swam to surface then to shore.
Had a lot of explaining to do to the FAA!

Always follow the bubbles, they only go to the surface.
 
Last edited:
Trees

I'm going into the trees with airspeed just above stall. You can't drown in the trees. Both are survivable but with the odds I'd think go with the trees. Going into water is likely to make your survival gear "unavailable" once you get to shore.

The reason for flying into the trees above a stall is to dissipate the speed and allow you to settle. Stalling above trees may give you a slower impact speed but could create a scenario where you have a vertical drop which could be fatal.

Another reason for hitting with some speed is to create a debris field for the rescuers to find. Having flown Search and Rescue I can tell you from experience it is next to impossible to find a plane that has "lawn darted," into the trees. The trees just spring back. With forward speed, the trees will get damaged making them easier to see.

Even having a very defined crash area, a plane that has gone straight in is hard to see. We have hovered directly over crashes and not seen the crash because the tree canopy covering it up.

No water for me!!!!
 
Everyone forgot one major thing. Tighten the seat belts as much as you can before you go in. You cannot overtighten them for impact.
 
real solution.............

there may be a answer to your problem soon. i talked to a guy who is working on a jet engine that will pop out of the bottom of your gliding rv to the river trees option. presto you now have emergency power to get you to a safe landing site. the problem at this time is they are using a rc jet engine that is not powerfull enough. once they find the proper engine your problem will be solved. there are some great enginers out there.
i would head for the trees after 7700, elt, radio call, flight plan, ect and of course brought along a long rope.
 
RVnoob said:
a question,

if you ditch into the water inverted...
would you be flipped right side up?
Click to expand...

Doesn't really matter - because after the water smashes the canopy and decapitates you, you won't care anymore.
 
BC trees and rivers

who started this??// Rob from Fernie?
yes, hard to believe, but here in BC, a flight at 8500' over the mountains gives you only 1 or 2 thousand feet of room! 2 or 3 minutes at best glide.
I think local knowledge is important, and seasonal perspective.
From sept to april, getting wet far from civilization, and the prospect of losing survival gear in a deep river could be fatal.
that said, landing on a hillside in tall trees creates a lot of chance of branches etc. punching thru the fuse and canopy, ending your day unpleasantly, including risk of fire.
I think about it everytime I fly, and think I'll be going over my charts and Google earth to find and highlight sandbars and 1km straight pieces of road, rare as they are!
 
my take

If given the choice I would take both. I would land in the water right near the shore on the upwind side. The water is shallow, and the tress can be impacted at a very slow speed close to the ground. lastly the debris will be visible from the air. upwind to minimize the turbelance.

Johnny stick
 
flyboy1963 said:
who started this??// Rob from Fernie?
Click to expand...

Interesting to see this thread resurrected. Fernie is in the middle of the Rocky Mountains, if I go east I can be over the prairies in no time flat, but that is kind of the long way around if I am trying to get to Vancouver!:D
 
I wonder how long an engine would run with a broken connecting rod or even with a hole in the case losing oil slowly? I sucked an exhaust valve once in a Lyc O-360A1D, At 3,000 ft. msl, at full throttle and full RPM increase, the engine maintained 1,400 rpm. I managed to fly slowly at about 80 mph in a Cessna 175 to the nearest airport 5 miles away and planned a high final. When the field was made, the power was slowly retarded. At 800 rpms, the engine locked with another bang. So I'm wondering if the pilots assume instant total engine failure, or do people think that they will automatically chop the power and take their chances landing anywhere? One more minute of partial engine power could take you to a better landing spot.
 
Fire??

Doug,

What about fire? If the engine is yust making less power for some reason, fine, try to make it to an airfield! But if you are loosing oil, you are risking a fire. If you shut her down and glide to a (less good) landing spot, there is a lot less chance of ending up toasted in the plane. You will probably flip, but I guess that 90% of the pilots could escape with minor injuries from their flipped RV's'.

I preffer an off field landing above flying a burning plane to an airfield (fire in the cabin? smoke in the cabin? zero visibility? explosion? :eek:).

Regards, Tonny.
 
Go knife edge through the tree's to remove the gear then hook it into the water some where near a pay phone and dry socks.
 
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