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When am I "in" the pattern?

N

N297NW

I'm New Here
I often practice GPS approaches during fine VFR weather.

The standard T shaped approach has you on about a five mile final to the runway. Let's say I am flying the approach in VFR conditions and properly announcing my position and intentions. At what point am I "in" the pattern? What I am after here is after flying this approach and getting on to reasonably short final someone in a C152 turns from crosswind to downwind, am I obligated to break off my approach? Is there some point at which I am now "in" the pattern and part of the sequence?

thanks,

bruce
 
Will you beat the Cessna to the runway? Are you "number one" for the runway? Use your judgment. If you're creating a conflict by proceeding, then break it off. Remember right-of-way rules, too. I believe the lower aircraft has the right of way. It's not just about "beating" him to the runway. Use your common sense.

Don't hesitate to ask the Cessna (nicely) to extend his downwind for you. Tell him you're on a practice instrument approach. Most students hear that and think you're doing something "higher priority" than they are (although don't come off like that on the radio!). They typically will oblige if you ask nicely.

I'm sure CFIs out there will have a more technical answer, but let common sense dictate!
 
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N297NW said:
What I am after here is after flying this approach and getting on to reasonably short final someone in a C152 turns from crosswind to downwind, am I obligated to break off my approach? Is there some point at which I am now "in" the pattern and part of the sequence?
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Why would you have to break off your approach just because there's someone on downwind? Just adhere to the right-of-way rules in the FARs (which have NOTHING to do with the concept of a "pattern").
 
Good point

That is the crux of this question.

The CFII that I was having this discussion with said, "You are never in the pattern".

When I cried foul, he used the old, "but if anything happened the FAA would get you for recklessness".

bruce
 
N297NW said:
That is the crux of this question.

The CFII that I was having this discussion with said, "You are never in the pattern".

When I cried foul, he used the old, "but if anything happened the FAA would get you for recklessness".

bruce
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You are in the pattern from final to departure. If you are operating under IFR (rules) in VMC,you are responsible for traffic avoidance, not ATC. If you are flying a practice approach VFR w/o an IFR clearance, you are still responsible for separation.

In a class G airport with class E above it down to 700', an aircraft can be operating VFR clear of clouds and 1 mile visibility while you come down through a 700' overcast under IFR control right into the "VFR" traffic. The only real way to avoid this is for both aircraft to be broadcasting their position (and listening) over traffic advisory frequency.

These sorts of things are why it is SO important to not be lax or casual in your communications. If you are talking in the cockpit when a traffic pattern transmission begins, you may not hear which field it is for. At Herlong (in Jacksonville,FL) we hear transmissions from Ocala,FL, Fernandina Beach, FL, and Flagler County,FL. So adding the "Herlong","Ocala", etc.. to the end of your transmission, as quaint as it may sound, really does help. It is also important to remain brief for the similar reasons.
 
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Courtesy...

dan said:
but let common sense dictate!
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I agree with Dan - Common Sense should never be superceded by Regulations.

At the same time, I would add that Courtesy is also important. There are way too many folks that argue over who has the "Right" to the pattern, or a place in the pattern. And I've seen them argue to the point of creating a dangerous situation - sometimes while still in the air, and sometimes later on the ground! Hey, so it takes you three minutes longer to let someone else have the way - do you really hate flying so much that you can't stand logging three more minutes?! ;)

I don't mind giving someone who feels more important than me a place - I'll go circle a little while until the pattern is clear. They can call me a wimp for giving in I guess....doesn't really make any differnce to me...

(In this particular case, you could argue about whether you intend to land out of your approach. If the other aircraft is intending to land, and you aren't then he has the right of way. If you are intending to land, then do whatever makes the most sense.)

In my opinion, the most important thing is to keep yourself AND OTHERS safe. Be predictable, use common sense, and be courteous, and the people that count will consider you a great pilot.

Paul
 
A VFR pilot's perspective

If the VFR pilots don't know where you are, it could be you're using a bunch of IFR jargon in your position reports.

An IFR approach always puts you on some sort of long straight-in final. Many VFR pilots (especially the new guys that probably make up most of the pattern traffic) don't know that. So announcing that you're on an IFR practice approach is probably about as useful as announcing your eye color.
When you're on a 3 mile final, just say so.

By the way, if you ask me, the line forms at mid-field downwind. It's always rude and dangerous to bust into the pattern on final and expect everyone to clear a path. IFR practice doesn't get you a pass. I say if you're straight-in and can't see all the traffic, break it off.
 
jonbakerok said:
If the VFR pilots don't know where you are, it could be you're using a bunch of IFR jargon in your position reports.
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Amen, brother and WHY this doesn't get more attention, I have no clue. I was in the pattern at St. Cloud not long ago and someone announced they were N Blah Blah blah shooting the NDB approach to Runway XX."

As near as I could tell, the only value of the announcement was "hey.....I've got my instrument rating." Seems to me if you're smart enough to get your instrument rating, you should be smart enough to know how to give a position report.:)

Or maybe they think that VFR airplanes will just sort of go right through them like a ghost and can't cause a mid-air.
 
Some who are strangers to your airport and not familiar with local procedures, (circuit/noise/obstructions) may follow IFR procedures even when VFR. They may call it a practice instrument approach on the radio. Amazing how much easier it is to find a runway at the end of a localizer, especially in haze or with the sun in your eyes.

I have also noticed that it's usually local (expert) pilots who never get out of the circuit that complain the loudest on the unicom, they believe everyone should turn over the same red barn that they do. Cut some slack for strangers and never turn final without checking for "straight in" traffic.
 
RobLyman said:
...The only real way to avoid this is for both aircraft to be broadcasting their position (and listening) over traffic advisory frequency...
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The real way to avoid other aircraft is to be looking outside and not trusting the radio.

How many of you have had a transmission walked on by another pilot and didn't know it? Probably more than you know. How many airplanes out there have radio problems and the pilot doesn't know it? How many planes are flying out there w/o radios? More than you will ever believe. How many times have you or someone else transmitted on the wrong frequency? How many people have heard "Speedbird N666 turning left base for bla bla bla" but can't see him because his pattern is 10 miles wide? Have you ever flown into an airport and heard position reports for a different airport with the same runway headings? Talk about confusion!

I distrust every position report until I can verify where that guy is and I keep my eyes open for other planes coming into the pattern w/o announcing their position.

As for the straight in IFR practice report, I remember as a student pilot people doing this and I had no idea what the heck they were doing or where they were coming from. However, I did have enough intelligence to ask the guy if they could see me. Eventually I learned what all that jargon meant but remember, you are dealing with inexperienced pilots who are one radio call away from total confusion.

PS. For those of you who say that all the J-3, Champ?s, T-Craft?s, etc. should at least use a hand held radio. That may require them to install a shielded ignition system, which may be beyond their budget or something they don?t want to do because it requires them to cut the cowling and add bumps to clear the plugs.
 
Bob Collins said:
Amen, brother and WHY this doesn't get more attention, I have no clue. I was in the pattern at St. Cloud not long ago and someone announced they were N Blah Blah blah shooting the NDB approach to Runway XX."
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Let me add my emphatic "Amen!" (or "Ramen", if you prefer) to this. This scenario played out in one of the most dangerous moments of my PPL training. I had just started soloing, and was in the pattern on a hazy day, 7 miles vis. I was midfield downwind when King Air XYZ starts annoucing he's "at Dinky" or whatever IFR fix it was. I had no frickin clue where this guy was. It became clear that he wasn't even monitoring the CTAF, but rather was flipping over from an IFR frequency to make his call and then flipping back. I doubled my position updates, and then finally decided to just expedite my approach to get away from this guy. That turned out to be a dumb move, because as I turned base to final, I hear "Cessna 123, King Air XYZ is on short final" In other words, "How could you be so dumb to not know I was here?" Until then, I didn't even know he was making an approach. I looked back over my shoulder and saw him for the first time, 1/4 mile back, 100 ft lower than me, and at my 5 o'clock. I firewalled the throttle, turned inside the centerline, and went around.

I know I shouldn't have made the turn to final without knowing where the King Air was, but he should have known where I was, and he should have been making true position updates, rather than IFR fix reports.
 
Not the same every time

Flying is all about situations and each situation, as well as each pilot, is different. I can only offer my opinion but if I?m approaching an airport I begin to monitor and report my position around the 10 mile out position.

If I hear anyone in the pattern (to me that means on upwind, cross wind, down wind, base, or final, or obviously on the runway) I listed closely to determine their location and our probable proximity when I am on final. If I know I can execute my final before they are established on base I don?t change my approach. If this is in doubt I position for a 45 entry into down wind. Some might not agree with this but I feel someone is established in any leg of the pattern (if the leg has a name I consider it part of the pattern) I give them the right of way.

Again that doesn?t mean that I immediately break of my straight in approach but I do give them priority. There is nothing wrong with a straight in approach if the traffic permits. Considering the high amount of air traffic at some airports plus factor in the pilots that for whatever stupid and inconsiderate reasons don?t announce their position, it is up to each of us to be as courteous and safe as possible. I now some will argue that there are planes that don?t have radios??well you can buy a handheld for a couple hundred bucks and use it only around the airports.

In your PPL training it discusses the proper/preferred way to enter a traffic pattern in a busy airport. This should be the default if there is any question about someone?s location or intent.

Too many times I have been cut off by ignorant or arrogant (maybe they are the same) people. It seems that some people think just because their airplane is more expensive or faster that they are exempt from the rules. I?m sure we have all experienced these ego jockeys.

I?m m not trying to sound negative?.If you ask me I will gladly give way most of the time. It is up to everyone to ensure safety and respect.

Donald Prater
RV-8 Empennage underway
N-284DP (Reserved)
 
Don gave a response that I agree with 100% - excellent post! To me, it is all about being courteous, and letting the other guy have the right of way (unless I am on fire or soemthing...). I generally don't mind flying a few more minutes, especially if I'm in the RV!

One other point about position reporting - it pays to be accurate! Here in the Houston/Galveston area, the major roads, highways, and runways all seem to be angled about 45 degrees to the compass. Ground-pounders tend to think of the streets running north and south, becasue Houston is "north" of Galveston... So some people will report "south of the field" when they are off the end of the runway, when in fact, they are southest. So now, when someone calls in "5 miles South of the field, where does everyone look? "Real" south, or "local south". Since transients only know the "real" directions, you need to stick to the compass. Lots of folks mess that up. In my book, a call that has people looking in the wrong place is WORSE than no call at all, because now everyone stops scanning, and concentrates on a quadrant...and they're looking in the wrong place... :eek:

Be safe!
 
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